Hearing is believing

[Elfie]

I'm managing to stay NC since Monday - only 2 days ago, but is read previous thread, you'll see why/how I've struggled, so, I sent text Monday to tell him to keep away, usually this means he rings and I answer, but his behaviour on Monday was so awful and I have started to change my thinking about him, seeing his manipulation rather than his sob stories.

 

He almost always got a call from his W when we were out, usually around the same time, 1pm/1.30, he saw I'd get upset, would sometimes say she always rang, it was her wanting to ring him, never anything important blah blah blah.

As I live opposite, he would always be out of sight when is W left for work when he was outside in the garden or at his van - to make it easier for me not to see them kiss goodbye.

 

This morning, he looks up at my window, even though he told me his W has been asking why he looks up at tmy window, to which he told me "I'm not bothered about that" and takes her box from her she's carrying, helps her carry other things to her car, then I hear him say "Call me later". She says "May do, about half past one".

 

I know it shouldn't bother me, but it did. I am trying to think he may be in damage limitation mode, feeling guilty, or he may be trying to wind me up. I guess I should have known it wasn't always W who wanted to ring him.

 

Hlaf an hour later, I'm coming back from an arrand and he is driving towards me in his van, and he waves to me.

 

I walked ahead, not wanting to show any feeling, but I know living so near, I'm really going to have to keep strong. Thank you fo rreading, opinions welcome if any.

[Goodbye]

You are his neighbor I take it?

 

I suspect he is covering his tracks by doing little "sweet things" with her...asking her to check in, stuff like that. My exMM did such things, I believe. I think you need to just expect such behavior.

 

Is he telling you he is leaving her? Or is he telling you they are staying together?

[Elfie]

Thanks Goodbye, good points.

 

He said he "couldn't leave yet"; he sometimes said he's like to, said he did want to be with me, threw his arms up once and said he wished he wasn't married, and maybe he would have treated me better if he wasn't, but hard to know what to believe when he didn't give a specific reason as to why he couldn't leave yet (and what would change to make "yet" into "possibly" or something - they don't have kids together, but 7 between them + grandchildren.

 

I also said often, that I wouldn't ever tell his W. I was never sure why I wouldn't, a mix of fear, self-loathing and fear of confrontation - she's a different nature to me.

[underwater2010]

In your case, I would drop any type of relationship with either of them. I am all for telling the BS what was going on, but in your case....there would be hell to pay as you are his neighbor.

 

Her rage will eventually focus on you and your home base is way to close.

[Elfie]

Yes Underwater, I've heard her rages, and her snapping at him, and as in another thread, a neighbour and a friend have both told me enough to know I'd be fearful of her approaching me.

 

She has her reasons for being the way she is, I don't want to hurt her anymore than I have, but occasionally I get angry that she doesn't know, and that she trusts him, but mostly I'm angry that he got away with it.

 

I know I should move on, but it's right under my nose, them carrying out their marriage in front of everyone, that he's a fake...though I guess I asked for it, even though I didn't choose an A, or having never had one before, not realising the emotional consequences.

[TaraMaiden]

...though I guess I asked for it, even though I didn't choose an A, or having never had one before, not realising the emotional consequences.

 

This is mind-bogglingly staggering.

I honestly cannot believe that as a grown woman, you threw yourself into a wild passionate sexual fling with a close neighbour without any thought, consideration or realisation of the 'emotional consequences'....!

 

What do you mean, you didn't 'choose' one? Of course you did! You knew who he was, where he lived and that he was married!

 

What on earth were you thinking, hun- ?!?

[Elfie]

TM - if you read back on my earlier threads, you'll know I had been rebuffing his advances for a year or so, then I lost a parent - an abusive parent - and the parent had been dead for 2 days before I found out. The parent also did not want to see me before passing, and I was informed as much by the other parent. I stayed away because I couldn't deal with their alcoholism, abuse and violence, but they died blaming me for not being bothered. I didn't get the chance to say I did care, I just didn't know how to deal with their abuse and the effects it had on my life and (as told in threads) relationships.

 

Where was my head at the time? All over the place. Like never before. Have you lost a parent in the same circumstances TM? I wouldn't put it on anyone.

 

I had just suffered the ultimate rejection - a parent dying, didn't want to see me. Here was this friendly guy who wanted to listen. I don't have many friends, I live and work alone. I hold my hands up to knowing he was married, but at the time, I was very much of the thought "what is the point of being nice, kind, thoughtful all my life, when I get shat on over an dover again?"

 

I was being told by a manipulative neighbour who lives next door to MM and W that he was being shouted at constantly. I was told by a friend he was under the thumb, put down. I guess I saw in him someone who appeared to be suffering too, albeit a different situation. We were reaching out to each other. Clutching at straws. He was a distraction from the pain of my loss.

 

I made the wrong choice and I paid for it, and I'll have to live with it for the rest of my life. Even the disgusting things he turned into being.

 

You asked where my head was, so I am just explaining, that was how it happened.

 

It wasn't a wild, passionate, sexual fling either, but I can't fully explain how my head was at the time, I guess you'd need to experience the same to be able to understand.

 

If only I was as unflawed as some people....

[Elfie]

Sorry if I seemed defensive in above post, I just don't understand why people can think human nature is so black and white.

 

My dad hit me, mother abused me in many ways, so did my uncle, husband and subsequent relationship, I've been cheated on, been the BS and suffered work bullying to the extent of needing EMDR and getting PTSD. Some of these were all also "grown women" and grown men, and they knew who I was, just like I knew who he was, but sometimes grown ups make bad decisions.

 

Sometimes people do wrong things and sometimes people who have had wrong things done to them just give up. I did. I'd had enough and I got involved with a MM. But I didn't want it and spent every other day trying to finish with him.

 

Sorry, I'm getting defensive again....

[dreamingoftigers]

Sorry if I seemed defensive in above post, I just don't understand why people can think human nature is so black and white.

 

My dad hit me, mother abused me in many ways, so did my uncle, husband and subsequent relationship, I've been cheated on, been the BS and suffered work bullying to the extent of needing EMDR and getting PTSD. Some of these were all also "grown women" and grown men, and they knew who I was, just like I knew who he was, but sometimes grown ups make bad decisions.

 

Sometimes people do wrong things and sometimes people who have had wrong things done to them just give up. I did. I'd had enough and I got involved with a MM. But I didn't want it and spent every other day trying to finish with him.

 

Sorry, I'm getting defensive again....

 

I had EMDR too, it's pretty awesome.

 

Parental abuse sucks.

[underwater2010]

Sorry if I seemed defensive in above post, I just don't understand why people can think human nature is so black and white.

 

My dad hit me, mother abused me in many ways, so did my uncle, husband and subsequent relationship, I've been cheated on, been the BS and suffered work bullying to the extent of needing EMDR and getting PTSD. Some of these were all also "grown women" and grown men, and they knew who I was, just like I knew who he was, but sometimes grown ups make bad decisions.

 

Sometimes people do wrong things and sometimes people who have had wrong things done to them just give up. I did. I'd had enough and I got involved with a MM. But I didn't want it and spent every other day trying to finish with him.

 

Sorry, I'm getting defensive again....

Sorry but none the supports your claim of not "choosing" an affair. The moment you engage in that behavior, you made a choice.

 

I am sorry that you have had all that hurt in your past. But I think you need to keep your head down low. And by the way....YOU got away with it too.

 

My question to you....If you have felt the damage of being a BS, why the hell would you do that to someone else?

[Elfie]

Sorry but none the supports your claim of not "choosing" an affair. The moment you engage in that behavior, you made a choice.

 

I am sorry that you have had all that hurt in your past. But I think you need to keep your head down low. And by the way....YOU got away with it too.

 

My question to you....If you have felt the damage of being a BS, why the hell would you do that to someone else?

 

Is spending the rest of my life knowing what I did "getting away with it"? Is feeling like trash and never again be able to say "I'm a good person" getting away with it? I didn't get away with it. On the surface, yes, but inside? Never.

 

Why the hell would I do it to someone else when I have been the BS?

 

1) Because up until then I believed there was something called the sisterhood

2) Because exH chased everything and I was giving him everything despite his violence and absue

2) Because I hadn't lost a parent before

3) Because I went on to an even worse R after exH, with someone who was violent, kept me locked up for days, physical, mental and sexual abuse, kicked me when pregnant and caused the loss of a baby (my only chance of being a mum it truned out) and who cheated on me with 2 women and a man

3) Because I'm everything that people think OW's are

 

4) Because I needed and wanted for the first time in my sad little life, a tiny weeny bit of affection.

[Elfie]

Underwater - I'm not trying to excuse what I did, asking for forgiveness or thinking its justified.

[Praying4Peace]

(((ELFIE)))

 

I have a suggestion. It might seem undoable to you at first, but think about it rationally.

 

MOVE

 

Put your house up for sale. If you don't want to sell it due to the market conditions, then rent it out and use the money to get yourself a small apartment somewhere far away from that hell hole of a situation. As soon as you remove yourself from those surroundings you will feel like a breath of fresh air has been released into your life. You will see things and yourself differently. You will feel empowered because YOU took action, rather than letting others dictate the terms of your life.

 

Can you do this? Have you considered it?

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I think anyone can see what LED you to your involvement in an affair. I think many affairs start exactly this way. With someone who is experiencing trauma and needs a friend.

 

What people are questioning is that you DID choose an affair, though you seem to feel you didn't. Hell, some people choose suicide, and we can understand how they felt overwhelmed and desperate, but they still CHOSE it.

 

I think MM isthe least of your problems. You need a lot of help and you don't need to be in another abusive relationship. Get away from him for yourself, and definitely before there is a Dday.

 

I get that you've been through a lot, but if you don't take control of your life and make your own decisions for yourself and in your best interest, then you're going to continue bouncing through life like a proverbial ping pong ball just reacting to the next thing that sends you in another direction. Itsyourchoiceti be the victim of your circumstances or to choose your own direction when you encounter tough times.

 

See, it is a choice, and while it's often hard to make good choices under stress, what ever you choose, is YOUR choice.

 

I hope you're able to get help for yourself and love yourself enough to start making good decisions.

[underwater2010]

Sorry but none the supports your claim of not "choosing" an affair. The moment you engage in that behavior, you made a choice.

 

I am sorry that you have had all that hurt in your past. But I think you need to keep your head down low. And by the way....YOU got away with it too.

 

My question to you....If you have felt the damage of being a BS, why the hell would you do that to someone else?

 

Is spending the rest of my life knowing what I did "getting away with it"? Is feeling like trash and never again be able to say "I'm a good person" getting away with it? I didn't get away with it. On the surface, yes, but inside? Never.

 

Why the hell would I do it to someone else when I have been the BS?

 

1) Because up until then I believed there was something called the sisterhood

2) Because exH chased everything and I was giving him everything despite his violence and absue

2) Because I hadn't lost a parent before

3) Because I went on to an even worse R after exH, with someone who was violent, kept me locked up for days, physical, mental and sexual abuse, kicked me when pregnant and caused the loss of a baby (my only chance of being a mum it truned out) and who cheated on me with 2 women and a man

3) Because I'm everything that people think OW's are

 

4) Because I needed and wanted for the first time in my sad little life, a tiny weeny bit of affection.

I have said it before and I will say it again I AM SORRY FOR THE PAIN YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED!!! I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

 

But the only way you will get better is to stop with the excuses. Now that you have discovered what lead you to your choice, it is time for you to move past them.

 

Are you attending IC for those past traumas?

 

I agree when others tell you it might be a wise move to relocate. Seeing both of them day in and out will continue to set you back.

[aliveagain]

Elfie,

 

Her asking him as to why he looks up at your window is her way of telling him she knows about the two of you, that was his first warning shot across the boughs. You are close to being burnt yet you keep tempting fate, you keep fueling the flames. You have a choice, the first one should be NC and deal with your FOO issues, get the professional help you need.

[Elfie]

 

 

I wish I could help you heal. Have you given any thought to seeking out a counselor you don't need to see in person?

 

I've been on the waiting list for one to one therapy of a certain type, for other things, and my appointment came through today....I guess it will be a good thing to try and bring out some of this situation if I am able to.

 

Thank you for your kind words LFH - no one knows what a strong front we sometimes put on here

[Elfie]

(((ELFIE)))

 

I have a suggestion. It might seem undoable to you at first, but think about it rationally.

 

MOVE

 

Put your house up for sale. If you don't want to sell it due to the market conditions, then rent it out and use the money to get yourself a small apartment somewhere far away from that hell hole of a situation. As soon as you remove yourself from those surroundings you will feel like a breath of fresh air has been released into your life. You will see things and yourself differently. You will feel empowered because YOU took action, rather than letting others dictate the terms of your life.

 

Can you do this? Have you considered it?

 

I rent, local authority (so does he/wife if that is relevant) and I had my home on the transfer list last year, due to his pestering before my parent died - just shows how vulnerable I became, or how good he was, so it is possible to move, if I am able to find someone who wants my property.

 

I'd need alot of strength, but it's not totally out of the question. Though he did say once "Don't think of moving 'cos I'll find ya", to which I thought that sounds a bit stalker ish, then crossed it from my mind as me reading too much into it

[Elfie]

Elfie,

 

Her asking him as to why he looks up at your window is her way of telling him she knows about the two of you, that was his first warning shot across the boughs. You are close to being burnt yet you keep tempting fate, you keep fueling the flames. You have a choice, the first one should be NC and deal with your FOO issues, get the professional help you need.

 

You may be right about her knowing, but I'm not doing anything to fuel the flames, I've been NC since Monday, he's looked up many times since then, but I keep out of the way. When he told me she'd said that, he had actually walked over to my driveway while she was at the shops. I said "Well why are you standing here then?" and he said "I'm not bothered about that, I could have gone with her but I wanted to come and talk to you".

 

I watch where I can't be seen because I am hoping he will stop looking up. I want proof that he's accepted it's over.

 

I've also not gone out to my garden, car or to anywhere else, unless he's at work, and I've planned the weekend to be out all day both days, from early morning, like 6am, as this is when they are at home most. It isn't easy, and it might need to be like this for a while, but I really do want to forget what I've done - he's done too, but I don't feel I have the right to shift blame.

 

I know from the many times I tried to break it off, that I'm pretty weak and he can be convincing. I'm not assertive.

 

I didn't throw myself into it as another replier assumed, but I am trying all I can to break free physically and mentally. I'm not making excuses as the same poster stated, I was explaining why it happened, without anyblame laid at xMM's door I might add, but I absolutley regret every second of it.

[TaraMaiden]

Elfie, I hadn't read your previous threads.

I'm sorry you went through the mill.

 

My opinion and view on your actions is irrelevant.

 

I hope you manage to find the space within your life to be able to move on and grow stronger.

My stance hasn't changed, but I apologise if it hit you like an attack.

Last thing you need is just more, heaping on you.

I wish you well.

 

[krazikat]

You may be right about her knowing, but I'm not doing anything to fuel the flames, I've been NC since Monday, he's looked up many times since then, but I keep out of the way. When he told me she'd said that, he had actually walked over to my driveway while she was at the shops. I said "Well why are you standing here then?" and he said "I'm not bothered about that, I could have gone with her but I wanted to come and talk to you".

 

I watch where I can't be seen because I am hoping he will stop looking up. I want proof that he's accepted it's over.

 

I've also not gone out to my garden, car or to anywhere else, unless he's at work, and I've planned the weekend to be out all day both days, from early morning, like 6am, as this is when they are at home most. It isn't easy, and it might need to be like this for a while, but I really do want to forget what I've done - he's done too, but I don't feel I have the right to shift blame.

 

I know from the many times I tried to break it off, that I'm pretty weak and he can be convincing. I'm not assertive.

 

I didn't throw myself into it as another replier assumed, but I am trying all I can to break free physically and mentally. I'm not making excuses as the same poster stated, I was explaining why it happened, without anyblame laid at xMM's door I might add, but I absolutley regret every second of it.

 

Elfie, I am sorry you are going thru this experience, on top of everything else you have gone thru.

 

I say this gently, but Elfie, this relationship with mm is simply another abusive relationship...the fact that you were trying to move because of him prior to the death of a parent and the strong pursuit he continued despite your previous lack of interest shows his true character..

 

You need to find yourself, Elfie...find out why you continue to make these choices in men and why you continue to stay in these relationships despite the abusive treatment...

 

You can find happiness, you can find a genuine, loving relationship, but Elfie you have to love yourself first!!!

 

I know that there are some here saying that no one knows they will never be with a mm...but hon I can say with 150% confidence that I will never do that...and I have been abused as a child, raped, cheated on, single teen parent, broke, depressed, sick, hurt, angry, really, you still have the choice of who you want to be, you may not be able to control what others do, but you can control your choices. You can choose.self.destructive behaviors or self respecting behaviors. The more love you have for yourself, the more likely you will be to choose self respect.

 

Like others have said, ic could make a huge difference for you in uncovering why you have made the choices you have made...and how to stop making the bad choices.

 

Moving away from this dude is also in your best interest.

 

Elfie, I am sending positive thoughts your way, do take care of yourself. You do deserve so much better...this r with mm does not define who you are...YOU define who you are...and you can move past this until it is just a blip in your timeline.

[dreamingoftigers]

Sorry but none the supports your claim of not "choosing" an affair. The moment you engage in that behavior, you made a choice.

 

I am sorry that you have had all that hurt in your past. But I think you need to keep your head down low. And by the way....YOU got away with it too.

 

My question to you....If you have felt the damage of being a BS, why the hell would you do that to someone else?

 

Is spending the rest of my life knowing what I did "getting away with it"? Is feeling like trash and never again be able to say "I'm a good person" getting away with it? I didn't get away with it. On the surface, yes, but inside? Never.

 

Why the hell would I do it to someone else when I have been the BS?

 

1) Because up until then I believed there was something called the sisterhood

2) Because exH chased everything and I was giving him everything despite his violence and absue

2) Because I hadn't lost a parent before

3) Because I went on to an even worse R after exH, with someone who was violent, kept me locked up for days, physical, mental and sexual abuse, kicked me when pregnant and caused the loss of a baby (my only chance of being a mum it truned out) and who cheated on me with 2 women and a man

3) Because I'm everything that people think OW's are

 

4) Because I needed and wanted for the first time in my sad little life, a tiny weeny bit of affection.

 

I am a BS and I can seriously see that losing that parent pushed you over your breaking point. It's pretty obvious that you are having a very hard time processing this and you are still in a lot of pain.

 

When my husband and I suddenly separated, it pushed me past my breaking point and I broke down. I would've accepted just about anything to combat the isolation, raw pain and loneliness. I had spent 3 years struggling to have my family fall out of my hand like sand.

 

There was a user girl that moved in with me for four months. She left my upstairs where I let her live a total wreck. She moved her boyfriend in too. I was glad to see them go. But it might have saved me something much more embarassing.

[dreamingoftigers]

 

I know that there are some here saying that no one knows they will never be with a mm...but hon I can say with 150% confidence that I will never do that...and I have been abused as a child, raped, cheated on, single teen parent, broke, depressed, sick, hurt, angry, really, you still have the choice of who you want to be, you may not be able to control what others do, but you can control your choices. You can choose.self.destructive behaviors or self respecting behaviors. The more love you have for yourself, the more likely you will be to choose self respect.

 

I was also suicidal (hospitalized 3 times. (4?) It's been awhile I honestly can't remember anymore. I also had been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. The abuse I had as a child was very deprivational.

 

However, my breaking point came when I least expected it over something I didn't expect. I didn't end "up with an MM." But I did trip into a type of "survival mode." It was exceedingly painful. And it had built up to proportions I never expected. I would never had placed money on being so vulnerable.

 

Sometimes the breaking point doesn't come in on the heels of the crisis at all, but rather from prolonged neural deprivation and/or overload.

[Lillyfree]

TM - if you read back on my earlier threads, you'll know I had been rebuffing his advances for a year or so, then I lost a parent - an abusive parent - and the parent had been dead for 2 days before I found out. The parent also did not want to see me before passing, and I was informed as much by the other parent. I stayed away because I couldn't deal with their alcoholism, abuse and violence, but they died blaming me for not being bothered. I didn't get the chance to say I did care, I just didn't know how to deal with their abuse and the effects it had on my life and (as told in threads) relationships.

 

Where was my head at the time? All over the place. Like never before. Have you lost a parent in the same circumstances TM? I wouldn't put it on anyone.

 

I had just suffered the ultimate rejection - a parent dying, didn't want to see me. Here was this friendly guy who wanted to listen. I don't have many friends, I live and work alone. I hold my hands up to knowing he was married, but at the time, I was very much of the thought "what is the point of being nice, kind, thoughtful all my life, when I get shat on over an dover again?"

 

I was being told by a manipulative neighbour who lives next door to MM and W that he was being shouted at constantly. I was told by a friend he was under the thumb, put down. I guess I saw in him someone who appeared to be suffering too, albeit a different situation. We were reaching out to each other. Clutching at straws. He was a distraction from the pain of my loss.

 

I made the wrong choice and I paid for it, and I'll have to live with it for the rest of my life. Even the disgusting things he turned into being.

 

You asked where my head was, so I am just explaining, that was how it happened.

 

It wasn't a wild, passionate, sexual fling either, but I can't fully explain how my head was at the time, I guess you'd need to experience the same to be able to understand.

 

If only I was as unflawed as some people....

 

i understand that sometimes life punches us to the ground, overwhelms us with problems to an extent where it's hard to think rationally, and we will seek comfort wherever we can.

 

thing i don't understand, what you ended up in is yet another bad situation. yet another toxic person who was using you and treating you poorly, giving you a few boots into the ribs while you were on the ground.

 

and you're still there. it might be time to shake things off, grow some ladyballs and demand more from life and from yourself!

[Elfie]

Thank you for your support, understanding and insights. Yes, I have had trouble processing things, and no one can beat me harder than I have been, but I just need to remind myself of the short times he gave me, and how he would leave me, without sadness, sometimes after just minutes. That he used his grotty van as a mobile bedroom, and thought nothing of dropping me off in the middle of a road once......remind myself just how low I became, in exchange for the belief that someone cared about me. :o:o

 

It will sting to see him pandering to his W, and that she thinks he's wonderful, because there's still a little wish he really did mean it when he said he wished he could be with me properly, and not have to resort to the way things were, and that I meant something to him, but if NC made him see what he's left with, then he's obviously where he wants to be and he was always so desperate for sex I don't think he'll last that long before he needs someone else. Maybe one day he'll meet his waterloo.

 

Onwards and upwards hopefully, and time for me to change my script. No more users, abusers or flakes. Hopefully.

 

Be the woman he wishes he'd never lost.