the "You Have To Win Her" Theory

[oldshirt]

 

The MOST true part about his post...that attractive girls are rarely completely "free and clear." AND that they don't view themselves that way! AND that they are open to other options. ALL TRUE!

 

I view myself as completely single, but it's true that at any given time I am ALWAYS in communication with at least a few men. I'm not dating them for whatever reason (mainly geographical) but if you're a guy waiting for me to be completely "free" and not talking to any men, it ain't gonna happen.

 

.

 

If a guy wants to take me out I rarely object. All that's necessary is for them to step up to the plate...and for me to be at least a little bit attracted.

?

 

Very well said right from the horses mouth. I wish someone had explained it like that back when I was 19.

 

The assumption of exclusivity when you see people together is often a very very inaccurate assumption. People are often on the market to much higher degree than what you may think they are. It's always worth a shot.

 

The only shot you'll ever regret later in life is the shot you didn't take. I don't regret a single moment of awkwardness. I don't regret a single pissed off boyfriend and I don't regret a single rejection from someone who sincerely didn't want to spend any time with me.

 

What I regret is sitting on my hands to afraid to engage someone because they were already seeing someone and not realizing that I did in fact stand a chance when I erroneously assumed I didn't.

[Inexperienced85]

The MOST true part about his post...that attractive girls are rarely completely "free and clear." AND that they don't view themselves that way! AND that they are open to other options. ALL TRUE!

 

I view myself as completely single, but it's true that at any given time I am ALWAYS in communication with at least a few men. I'm not dating them for whatever reason (mainly geographical) but if you're a guy waiting for me to be completely "free" and not talking to any men, it ain't gonna happen.

 

If a guy wants to take me out I rarely object. All that's necessary is for them to step up to the plate...and for me to be at least a little bit attracted?

 

As far as I understand you speak about male colleagues that you're not attracted to and don't consider them prospects. I don't see anything wrong with having colleagues, but I fail to see how is it relevant to "ongoing competition" idea you suggested earlier. They are out of the game, right?

[oldshirt]

True. But when you say desirable/undesirable you are really talking about looks. That's really what people value.

 

For me, competition and the chasing game results in emotional investment, rejection, and bitterness. So, it's really not worth it.

 

You just haven't learned to play it well yet.

 

It's like football, if you just walk out on the field without some coaching and some drills and some instruction on how the game is played, you are going to get your ass kicked into the ground over and over and over again until you either start catching on and learning how to push back, or until you step back and learn how it's played and get some coaching and practice until you have developed the skills to survive playing the real game.

[daisybuchanan55]

To JuneJulySeptember and Inexperienced...why do YOU think you're experiencing so much rejection?

 

There are a lot of quick fixes I can think of that would probably improve your situations.

 

And yes, I usually decide instantly whether someone is "in" or "out." But my "in" category is actually broader than it would seem. There is a lot a man can do to put himself in the "in" category.

 

People who I instantly decide are "out" are usually VERY socially awkward. That's the main reason I'd put someone in that category. Not looks.

[hppr]

What I regret is sitting on my hands to afraid to engage someone because they were already seeing someone and not realizing that I did in fact stand a chance when I erroneously assumed I didn't.

 

I'd agree, not just when it comes to girls but life in general. Jobs, etc really the only regrets I have are for chances I didn't take. Even when you flame out miserably at least you can say "I tried" and it won't hurt as bad, if at all.

 

The only caveat I'd add is that 'winning' another person rarely works unless there is something beyond just your dick in the equation. Most of the time it's just horniness and wondering what to say and how to say it to get laid. That doesn't make a relationship though.

[oldshirt]

 

But when you say desirable/undesirable you are really talking about looks. That's really what people value.

 

People value what they value. For some it may be a pretty/handsome face. For others it may be a bank account. For others it may be a particular passion or activity they are good at. Everyone has something (or more accurately, lots of somethings) that trips their trigger.

 

What you find attractive in a woman may not mean Jack-$hit to your best buddy and vice versa.

 

But here is the catch, there are 3 billion men in the world. No matter what trips your trigger there is some other dude out there that digs it too. In order to get the girl you are going to have to be the better deal in her eyes.

 

Even if you are into fat, smelly, wart-covered, foul mouthed, gray haired old alcoholic chicks that reek of cigar smoke and chewing tobacco, there is some other dude out there that is into the same thing and you are going to compete against him for her and you are going to have to be the better man in her eyes.

[hppr]

VERY socially awkward

 

I'd say that's first.

 

Second would be looks, but not in the way guys usually think. Really unless you have very odd physical proportions as a guy it's not your body, and even then you can often change your body (gym, lift weights, blah blah blah). Looks is more about dress and grooming, hygiene, hairstyle that sort of thing.

[ChessPieceFace]

The assumption of exclusivity when you see people together is often a very very inaccurate assumption. People are often on the market to much higher degree than what you may think they are. It's always worth a shot.

 

I simply make the following assumptions (really requirements) -- I'd only date a girl that would respect exclusivity. I'd only date a girl that would be faithful. I wouldn't want a girl who had no loyalty, a girl who was just constantly gaming for the biggest deal she could wrap her legs around.

 

Given that, I would never cheat with someone or steal someone's GF. Not just out of ethics and morality, but also out of wanting to avoid having that happen to ME, by chasing after trash.

 

You want to compete with the animals - go for it. Your choice. You have then chosen to be an animal, and deserve your fate.

 

The only shot you'll ever regret later in life is the shot you didn't take. I don't regret a single moment of awkwardness. I don't regret a single pissed off boyfriend and I don't regret a single rejection from someone who sincerely didn't want to spend any time with me.

 

Will you regret the shot from the pissed-off boyfriend's gun?

[daisybuchanan55]

I simply make the following assumptions (really requirements) -- I'd only date a girl that would respect exclusivity. I'd only date a girl that would be faithful. I wouldn't want a girl who had no loyalty, a girl who was just constantly gaming for the biggest deal she could wrap her legs around.

 

Given that, I would never cheat with someone or steal someone's GF. Not just out of ethics and morality, but also out of wanting to avoid having that happen to ME, by chasing after trash.

 

You want to compete with the animals - go for it. Your choice. You have then chosen to be an animal, and deserve your fate.

 

 

 

Will you regret the shot from the pissed-off boyfriend's gun?

 

With this mindset, you'll be single forever.

 

Oldshirt isn't talking about stealing some guy's GF of four years. He's saying that if you see a guy and girl together, don't assume they are in some intense relationship. A lot of times they aren't.

 

There is such a thing called "dating" and that's what we're talking about. That point before exclusive. I "date" multiple guys at once. That doesn't make me disloyal or "trash." It means I'm exploring, seeing what's out there, what floats my boat etc. in an efficient way.

 

If you're a guy you should be aggressive and go after what you want. The guys who end up with the best girls are the guys who went for what they wanted. Sure, you might get shot down once in awhile. But seriously, who are you hanging around that there are guns and weapons in the equation? The worse thing that might happen is getting punched in the face, and even that seems rare to me. Most guys in a serious relationship would probably just tell you to "get f**cking lost" if you were hitting on his girl.

[hppr]

I think the bottom line is that (throwing out looks, morality, whatever) fortune always favors the brave/foolish types who are willing to take the risks. So if you aren't willing to go after some girl that you really feel a connection with then you have already lost in a way.

[Inexperienced85]

To JuneJulySeptember and Inexperienced...why do YOU think you're experiencing so much rejection?

 

There are a lot of quick fixes I can think of that would probably improve your situations.

 

I'm all ears. Why do you think I'm here, ma'am?

[MomsSpaghetti]

It actually goes for both sexes.

 

I wouldn't say the principle is applied the same way for both sexes. The number of guys who women compete for is maybe 1 out of every 100. The number of girls who guys compete for is more like 51 out of every 100, meaning that every women who is above average in attractiveness has multiple guys with their sights on her.

[Pompeii]

Any woman you have to compete for and win is a drama queen and not worth the effort. Life isn't a game show.

 

Hm... That's... inaccurate.

[oldshirt]

With this mindset, you'll be single forever.

 

Oldshirt isn't talking about stealing some guy's GF of four years. He's saying that if you see a guy and girl together, don't assume they are in some intense relationship. A lot of times they aren't.

 

There is such a thing called "dating" and that's what we're talking about. That point before exclusive. I "date" multiple guys at once. That doesn't make me disloyal or "trash." It means I'm exploring, seeing what's out there, what floats my boat etc. in an efficient way.

 

If you're a guy you should be aggressive and go after what you want. The guys who end up with the best girls are the guys who went for what they wanted. Sure, you might get shot down once in awhile. But seriously, who are you hanging around that there are guns and weapons in the equation? The worse thing that might happen is getting punched in the face, and even that seems rare to me. Most guys in a serious relationship would probably just tell you to "get f**cking lost" if you were hitting on his girl.

 

Yes this is exactly what I meant.

 

I am NOT talking about poaching an established serious relationship or marriage.

 

I am talking about seeing a man and woman sitting at a table together in a restaurant or dancing together in club. Do not assume they are an established couple in a committed relationship.

 

If you here that Tommy took Suzie to the movies Sat night, do not assume that they are now exclusive.

 

If you hear that Tamara and Ron are booty calling each other in the middle of the night, do not assume that they are having some hot and heavy love affair and will not consider dating others.

 

A lot of people are dating someone or multiple someones at any given time and that does not mean that they are exclusive or not open to the idea of going out with someone else. People are on the market until they decide they are not on the market. They are not necessarily off the market when you assume they are off the market.

[oldshirt]

Also what I am getting at is every attractive girl is going to have multiple satellites orbiting around her at any given time trying to make inroads into her pants or trying to date her.

 

Do NOT assume that these orbitors and wannabes are in a serious exclusive relationship with her and do NOT be afraid to ruffle these guy's feathers or to get them upset you.

 

A husband with young kids and car payments and mortgages with a wife may very well be driven to violence if you are trying to move in on his wife and mother of his kids (I know because I am one of those guys)

 

But an orbitor or someone who has been on a casual date or two with a gal is not likely to be driven to such extremes and all these fears of guns and knives and bloodshed are largely unfounded.

 

People are often not as seriously involved with each other as what outside parties tend to think.

[Inexperienced85]

Yes this is exactly what I meant.

 

I am NOT talking about poaching an established serious relationship or marriage.

 

I am talking about seeing a man and woman sitting at a table together in a restaurant or dancing together in club. Do not assume they are an established couple in a committed relationship.

 

If you here that Tommy took Suzie to the movies Sat night, do not assume that they are now exclusive.

 

If you hear that Tamara and Ron are booty calling each other in the middle of the night, do not assume that they are having some hot and heavy love affair and will not consider dating others.

 

A lot of people are dating someone or multiple someones at any given time and that does not mean that they are exclusive or not open to the idea of going out with someone else. People are on the market until they decide they are not on the market. They are not necessarily off the market when you assume they are off the market.

 

I don't know. There is difference to me between a woman having male colleagues and nothing going on between any of them and a woman regularly habing sex with other guys but not being exclusive with any of them and I would merely be a part of that rotation. The former doesn't matter to me, the latter grosses me out. I'm not saying they aren't allowed to do that I'm saying I don't want to be involved in that crap.

[Els]

Really depends on whom you're trying to 'win'.

[jma500]

That's like telling a guy he has self esteem issues because he is attracted to women with pretty faces, shiny hair, hourglass figures, full firm breasts, long lean legs and shapely firm butts.

 

Attraction isn't a choice and it's not a result of a dysfunction or pathological state. It's programmed and hardwired into our DNA.

 

In every species on the planet, males and females alike have to compete for the most desirable members of the opposite sex.

 

Women do feel desire for men willing to compete for and defend them. It's not a self esteem issue, it is an instinctual issue.

 

She said she likes having guys compete for her. Therefore she needs the ego stroke she gets from having men compete for her thus need of outside validation thus self esteem issue. Nothing about attraction in her posts or my statements.

[ChessPieceFace]

I think I disagree with every single person in the thread. Might be a first.

 

We have women without ethics claiming that all women and successful men are without ethics...

Men without ethics claiming all women and successful men are without ethics...

And ultra-bitter men saying everything is hopeless.

 

Sorry, I don't recognize the world you claim to live in and it's probably because you live in an atheist immoral world. But in fact some people (both men and women) actually do still believe in noble ideals, set themselves to a higher standard than their base animal nature, and your base attitudes and behaviors once again demonstrate why the human race requires these noble ideals to behave properly.

 

If all you care about is getting your penis in the hole, then you may be right to continue to behave based on these humanist generalities and immoral standards. You've chosen to be an animal, and thus you deserve the morally bankrupt women you get.

 

I will choose to value more than what the animals value, hold to a higher ethical and moral standard, and similarly value those things in women. I won't be looking in bars for dates. I'll be looking for women of character, and in the long run I'll be far better off than you.

[daisybuchanan55]

I don't know. There is difference to me between a woman having male colleagues and nothing going on between any of them and a woman regularly habing sex with other guys but not being exclusive with any of them and I would merely be a part of that rotation. The former doesn't matter to me, the latter grosses me out. I'm not saying they aren't allowed to do that I'm saying I don't want to be involved in that crap.

 

 

I might go out with Tommy on Wednesday and Mike on Friday and dance at a club with Bill on Sunday. Doesn't mean I've come remotely close to having sex with any of them...

 

It is very obvious to me that you are, as your username says, "inexperienced." Most women are not having crazy amounts of random, disgusting sex. They are dating. Going for drinks. To the movies. Taking a walk on a Sunday afternoon. Chatting up random dudes at bars on the weekend.

 

These things can all happen without sex ever entering into the picture.

[daisybuchanan55]

I think I disagree with every single person in the thread. Might be a first.

 

We have women without ethics claiming that all women and successful men are without ethics...

Men without ethics claiming all women and successful men are without ethics...

And ultra-bitter men saying everything is hopeless.

 

Sorry, I don't recognize the world you claim to live in and it's probably because you live in an atheist immoral world. But in fact some people (both men and women) actually do still believe in noble ideals, set themselves to a higher standard than their base animal nature, and your base attitudes and behaviors once again demonstrate why the human race requires these noble ideals to behave properly.

 

If all you care about is getting your penis in the hole, then you may be right to continue to behave based on these humanist generalities and immoral standards. You've chosen to be an animal, and thus you deserve the morally bankrupt women you get.

 

I will choose to value more than what the animals value, hold to a higher ethical and moral standard, and similarly value those things in women. I won't be looking in bars for dates. I'll be looking for women of character, and in the long run I'll be far better off than you.

 

Just FYI I hang out in bars and I would still consider myself a woman of "high morals and character"...I also consider myself spiritual, like to go out to eat, volunteer, take walks, work out, watch TV, read...but you would never find out because if you found out I go to bars I'm automatically off your list of potential mates.

 

Talk about being judgmental! There are some real a**holes who hang out in churches, temples, do charity work, etc.

 

You never know where you may meet Mr. or Ms. Right!

[jma500]

Eeek.... There might be some truths about some human behaviors because of biology but people are infact different and do have different "natures" in varying degrees. Some people are more biologicaly predisposed toward monogmogy and others aren't. Some men very well may be more biologically predisposed to compete for women and others would like it to be more easy going. This doesn't mean they are "unnatural".

 

With that said, I don't think having to "compete" for a woman means life is a game show of that she can't really like you. Part of the fun between men and women is infact "the game". As long as the game is positive for both, it isn't a bad thing. So I don't understand men who are bitter about having to win a woman over but I can understand men who simply want something more beignin. People have different needs and tolerance. They also have different levels of desire for passion. Some people want a lot of passion (I am not just talking about sexual passion) and others need something more tepid.

You use my game show remark and then extrapolate that as bitterness. I hope you didn't mean me.

[PogoStick]

Why does LS always turn into the bitter guys hating on women?

 

Now how about the women competing for men? One said it doesn't really happen, and a girl or two laughed about having sex to secure a man.

 

I disagree. I feel women do get competitive for men. It just may be more subtle in nature. I feel the "dance" involves both sides. I do put in effort to chase the woman. In fact, I'm meeting new women regularly and dating to get to know them. I'll put in the effort but she has to play her part too. At times I feel it's best to step back to gauge her interests, to see what she will do to move the relationship forward. If she doesn't, another girl will. It's not just sex either. Does she grab my hand on the date, greet me with a big hug on the 2nd date, or give me a call in the middle of the week?

 

What's with being so cynical about having sex with guys? Fact is, until you have sex most guys view a woman as a glorified friend. Try holding out sex for 12 months and see how many stick around. Sex is part of taking it to the next level.

[daisybuchanan55]

Why does LS always turn into the bitter guys hating on women?

 

Now how about the women competing for men? One said it doesn't really happen, and a girl or two laughed about having sex to secure a man.

 

I disagree. I feel women do get competitive for men. It just may be more subtle in nature. I feel the "dance" involves both sides. I do put in effort to chase the woman. In fact, I'm meeting new women regularly and dating to get to know them. I'll put in the effort but she has to play her part too. At times I feel it's best to step back to gauge her interests, to see what she will do to move the relationship forward. If she doesn't, another girl will. It's not just sex either. Does she grab my hand on the date, greet me with a big hug on the 2nd date, or give me a call in the middle of the week?

 

What's with being so cynical about having sex with guys? Fact is, until you have sex most guys view a woman as a glorified friend. Try holding out sex for 12 months and see how many stick around. Sex is part of taking it to the next level.

 

I think if you're dating for a year and not having sex something is wrong, LOL...unless you're religious.

 

I definitely play my part in the "dance." Totally agree both people have to be on board.

 

I'm not cynical about having sex. It's just a bigger emotional deal for me (and many other women.) I don't want to risk getting emotionally attached to a man until I know he has real feelings for me. There's plenty of other things we can do before sex to let him know it's going in that direction.

[Els]

Try holding out sex for 12 months and see how many stick around.

 

You would be surprised...

 

Honestly, you don't need to look for a justification to have sex early. If you want it, go for it! There is nothing wrong with it.

 

Pushing for sex early, however, is not going to net you an overall higher chance with women - or at least, not a higher chance at anything else besides sex itself. Some will like early sexual aggressiveness and some won't. So do it if you feel you want to; just be sure to respect a 'no' if it comes.