Marriage in jeopardy due to male "friend" with an agenda

[Devildog]

Originally posted by Devildog

My wife on the other hand really seems to be unhappy with what is going on.

 

Personally, I think this is because she is very stubborn and HATES to be wrong. And with this situation she hasn't been able to find anyone to agree with her that what she has done is right or appropriate. I think it is driving her nuts.

 

Hmm, something to talk to the counsellor about I think. Maybe she is looking for an out. Maybe if I give her an option where she doesn't have to actually admit she was wrong it would break things loose and we could start moving back to a happy marriage. I know she was wrong, I think she knows she was wrong, everyone else knows she was wrong. Maybe she just is afraid to admit it? Offer to leave that in the past, who was right or wrong is irrelevant, trying to salvage our marriage is what is important.

[sherell]

Devildog- I think you are the right track, it doesnt matter who is right or wrong, trying to salvage your marriage is what is important. You might want to tell her this. I totally understand the devastion of losing a child. I have had 8 miscarriages, all after my son was born. It is beyond gut wrenching mentally, physically & spritually. For me, it was the beginning of the end of my marriage. I began to shut my husband out. I dont know exactly why perhaps, the emotions are so raw that it is so hard to share that pain with someone so close to you. The only thing that helped me was counseling and antidepressents. The drugs really helped lift me out of the black hole, and enabled me to think more clearly. I believe your wife is very depressed, and who wouldnt be after a devastating loss of a child. She has to want to get help and deal with this on her own terms, if she does it for you or anyone else, it won't work. Again, give her some time, & give yourself some time, allow both of you heal. Limbo is hell, but make it work for you.

[Ladyjane14]

Well, your posts sound fairly promising. That whole confident, attractive man concept can RUIN a perfectly good tantrum for a woman!

 

It's good that you could be there for MIL. It furthers your cause along that they both like and depend on you. That's all good for your daughter too.

 

I hope the palpitations will turn out to be nothing. There can be many different causes, and some can be fairly innocuous.

 

Originally posted by Devildog ...

Hmm, something to talk to the counsellor about I think. Maybe she is looking for an out. Maybe if I give her an option where she doesn't have to actually admit she was wrong it would break things loose and we could start moving back to a happy marriage. I know she was wrong, I think she knows she was wrong, everyone else knows she was wrong. Maybe she just is afraid to admit it? Offer to leave that in the past, who was right or wrong is irrelevant, trying to salvage our marriage is what is important.

 

I say, nothing ventured, nothing gained here. But talking it over with your counselor is a good idea.

[Devildog]

Well, the heart palpitations turned out to be really low potassium levels, so that is getting under control.

 

The counselor thought it was a good idea to give it a try. So when I talk to my wife next I will try to figure out a way to bring it into the conversation. Hopefully it will help ease the situation. My wife seems to be getting worse with me giving her what she says she wanted. She is getting migraines again. She hasn't had one of those in years.

[Devildog]

Well, I think I knocked out a huge chunck of the wall of her resistance this morning. I did something so unexpected and romantic it left her speechless.

 

I brought her flowers.

 

I brought her flowers at work.

 

In order to bring her flowers at work I walked to the nearest florist that was open and that I could find. A 2 mile round trip. By the way. I live in the midwest. We are getting some nasty weather. 40 degrees and downpouring rain. No umbrella. I walked 2 miles in that to get her flowers and hand deliver them to her at work. I was dripping wet standing in the lobby when she came out. She was stunned to say the least. I told her she was worth it.

 

The card said "I think our marriage is worth fighting for. I know you are worth fighting for. I love you very much!"

 

I think it really made a huge impression on her. Will have to wait and see.

[sherell]

you sure made an impression with me Right out of a romantic movie. I hope you made a home run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! best of luck & happy thanksgiving

[Devildog]

Originally posted by Devildog

The card said "I think our marriage is worth fighting for. I know you are worth fighting for. I love you very much!"

 

Correction, the card said "I believe our marriage is worth fighting for."

 

As I left I didn't look back really, until I got to the end of the block. I went to light a cigarette and had to turn a bit because of the wind. I could see her out of the corner of my eye still standing there staring at the flowers in what I can only guess was shock.

 

I had to pick up our daughter from daycare and she came by to pick her up after work and the flowers were in the front seat of her car, so atleast I know they didn't just get pitched after I left.

[Devildog]

It's funny, but I seem to have rediscovered myself. I am feeling like the man I was when we first met again. I have my confidence back. Unfortunately, a Marine's confidence is mistaken as arrogance by the uninitiated. My wife made a serious effort to try to tone down that confidence because it does rub most people the wrong way, and she crushed any confidence I did show.

 

If things work out I won't let that happen again to such an extreme. I am not going to doubt myself like I had done for the last few years. I will tone it down some, but I won't bury it and lose it again. It is one of the things that made her notice me and fall in love with me in the first place.

[Ladyjane14]

Great news that you're feeling better. Have you had any reaction from her regarding the flowers? Were you able to spend any family time with her over the Thanksgiving holiday?

[Devildog]

Well, according to her sister, the only reaction to the flowers was "how dare i show up at her place of work like that". She has never stopped spending time with the "friend", who according to her sister is more than just friends now, but she wouldn't go further into detail and betray my STBX's trust.

 

That's right, STBX. I told her I was done, that I wanted her to find out what needed to be done as far as divorce, that I wanted her name off the joint accounts, and that I was finished getting screwed around and being made a fool of.

 

And she still lied to me that nothing was and is still not going on with the "friend". But she wanted to invite the "friend" to Thanksgiving but didn't because my sister in law would have had an issue with it. Her brother died Thanksgiving morning 5 years ago. Thanksgiving is a very solemn thing with her family because of this. I had to spend that day by myself with no one to comfort me over the lose of a friend and a person I saw as a brother. Not even a phone call to see how I was doing. And she wanted to invite HIM to that, but they are nothing more than just "friends"? I didn't unload with half of what I wanted to say and could say because it would have betrayed my sister in law. But I am sick of the lies and deceit and the trying to blame me for everything that she created.

 

I told her if she was going to leave me for him she should have done it 8 years ago when this happened the first time. I lost 8 years when I was in the prime of my life because of this crap.

 

But I am still feeling better.

[Ladyjane14]

Well, that totally sucks. I can't blame you a bit for being angry. That's a crappy way to spend the holiday. (I hope you have a better plans for Christmas, btw. If not, make some. Treat yourself to a joyous holiday, you deserve it.)

 

I'm trying not to think vindictively here. It's a challenge!!! There's just a myriad of things you could be doing right now to make a divorce as uncomfortable for her as possible. But in the end, vindictiveness will only exacerbate every negative aspect of the situation.

 

My best advice to you........Don't let your anger do your talkin'. Very difficult, I know.

 

You've been to MarriageBuilders, haven't you? What do you think of trying a Plan A right now? It would be the hardest thing you ever did in your life.....but is it a possibility for you?

 

I've mentioned once or twice that I was concerned about how much resentment could be building while you were "giving her time". Is it too much now? Or can you stand a little more? The MarriageBuilders Plan A is very demanding, and it doesn't always work. But if you're #1 goal is putting your family back together, it could be something to try.

 

Think it over, we can move on to vindictive later!!! (j/k )

[sherell]

I am so sorry!!!! I thought you did a wonderful thing with the flowers, but unfortunately was wasted on her Maybe you really need to proceed with a dissolution now. She seems to be moving on, and of course it makes things so much harder with a third party involved. I think once you make that final decision, you will feel much stronger and easier for you to move on. Hopefully things will turn around the way you want them, but if not.... you will be OK, and emerge from this a much stronger person. And please don't think you have wasted years away, you still have a wonderful child whom you adore.

[Devildog]

I've been to the marriage builders website, even ordered the "Love Busters" book. But I didn't find anything on "Plan A". What is that exactly?

 

I am getting very near the point of no return. The resentment has been building and the last few days have really increased the feelings. I can go a little further but not much more. Her sister has been still working on her to atleast try going to counselling since I have put forth as much effort as I have. She seems to be warming up to the idea. I have a new found respect for her sister at this point. They have been very supportive of me and have stood up against my wife and in-laws to defend me. It would make things so much easier for them to just keep quiet or to agree that I am the bad guy. They haven't, and I really respect and appreciate that.

 

I do feel alot stronger now though. I had a very eye opening session with the counselor today. I had always had a feeling that I wasn't the problem in the marriage, but hearing it from an outside professional really makes a difference. In my counselor's opinion my wife has done just about everything possible in our relationship to destroy it. The problems that I have is such a small part of anything that it shouldn't even be considered a contributing factor. That there was nothing I did to bring our relationship to this point and there is nothing that I could have done to repair it. My wife is the problem. She has done everything she could to crush my confidence and spirit, she has alienated all of my friends and my family, she has been very selfish and demanding without giving anything in return. My counsellor said she understands now exactly where all my anger comes from. I have given so very much in this marriage and gotten so little in return, and I am being made out to be the bad guy and the problem. Who wouldn't be angry?

 

I really doubt that even if my wife goes to counseling with me it will make a difference. She does not take criticism at all. She won't like what she hears and I don't believe she will go in with an open mind and make any effort to change what she has done. But I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and give our marriage any opportunity possible. But it will be a major gut check for her to truly open her eyes and realize that she has been the major part of the problem in our marriage, not me. I don't think she has what it takes to see herself and change what she has done.

[Gatsby]

I have given so very much in this marriage and gotten so little in return, and I am being made out to be the bad guy and the problem. Who wouldn't be angry?

 

Time to move on. You can see it is her decision with her reasons for ending the relationship. You have faced yourself objectively and addressed the issues that needed work. You've shown a capacity for forgiveness, a willingness to compromise and faith in your love. Hold your head up and walk away.

 

Now for reality. It's going to hurt. Not the gut wrenching pain you felt when you first found out, but a hollow, depressing remorse. Because your wife exonerates herself from any wrongdoing you are left with all the questions of "why?"

 

But it will be a major gut check for her to truly open her eyes and realize that she has been the major part of the problem in our marriage, not me. I don't think she has what it takes to see herself and change what she has done.

 

Be careful with this. In a sense you are seeking some absolution from her, an acknowledgement of responsibility for the breakup. It's not going to come. Continue with counseling until you can resolve those feelings. Believe me, you do not want to be where I'm at right now. Good luck.

[Devildog]

Thanks for the advice Gatsby. I have made my peace if she decides she doesn't want to make any effort to working things out. I am just going to give our marriage any reasonable chance that it can be saved. If it isn't possible, I know I did everything I could to fix the problems. I can and will walk away with my head high.

 

I don't expect that she will admit to her wrongdoing if she walks away. I have no illusions of that. But I do know that after some time she will wake up some morning and realize what she had and what she tossed aside, and that she will have to live with alot of regret. And with us having a daughter together I will see it and know.

 

But the hardest part really is not getting answers to why.

[Ladyjane14]

Plan A and Plan B deal primarily with infidelity. Your wife's friendship with this other man may not fully qualify as an act of unfaithfulness, but I think that the basic concept here may still apply. She is being unduly influenced by this guy's divorce which is probably producing the "foggy" thinking that one could apply to adulterers 'under the influence'.

 

The idea in Plan A is to make yourself into a preferable alternative to the OM. It's difficult. Because you have to put your needs on hold, while putting on a good front. You have to be supportive and loving, and not argumentative. Eventually, the affair burns out and the wayward spouse returns home.

 

Plan B is a no contact phase not to be started until after a good plan A. It is designed to force the WS to deal with the realities of the affair, and to illustrate the loss of the loving plan A partner.

 

As wacky as it sounds, this works for some people. I think that the only way the BS manages to hang in there is to truly accept that their old spouse has kind of gone away for awhile. The "foggy" thinking makes them say and do things that they never would have done before. They are temporarily insane.

 

 

Try this link for more info on Plan A / Plan B:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

 

And take a look in the General Questions section of the Discussion Forum. There are alot of people who post there who seem to be very knowledgeable on how this works.

 

I know you must be really discouraged and that's understandable. But think it all over very carefully before you throw in the towel. It may not ever be your choice in the long run on if the marriage works, but it can always be your choice for it NOT to work.

[Devildog]

Unfortunately the problem up to this point ladyjane is that she has always seen me as a safety net for her to fall back on if things don't work out with the "friend". As long as she sees that I am still going to be there to catch her when she falls, she isn't going to give any thought to what she has and will lose. She sees it as a win-win situation for her. She can try to have a relationship with the "friend" and if that works out, great. If it doesn't work out she figures I will still be there waiting for her, so she hasn't lost anything.

 

I think a large part of her even giving any thought to counseling was because I told her I was done and that she needs to get things rolling so I can live my life. I think that was the first time she realized that I might not be there to run back to when she falls. It was after I told her that when her sister was suggesting giving counseling a try and she was actually giving it any consideration.

[Ladyjane14]

Could be time for Plan B then. Plan B involves writing a letter to your wife that lets her know that you love her and really want the marriage to work. But that you cannot have contact with her while she is involved with a person who is detrimental to the marriage.

 

Then you arrange a no contact situation, whereby she will not be permitted to see you or talk with you at all. Any childcare management would be done by third party, etc.

 

You remove the safety net.

 

This allows her to have to deal with the realities of the situation.

 

I would hope that you would post this to the General Questions II forum in the infidelity section at MarriageBuilders. They can help you with the letter and help to determine if you've been doing Plan A effectively up until now.

(I think you've been doing it for some time now all on your own, Plan A, I mean)

[Devildog]

I think I have removed the safety net at this point by telling her to move things along with the divorce. She actually listened to me when we argued after that. I think it was a wake up call for her. I don't think I really need to say anything more at this point, other than to follow up and see if she has done anything to get things resolved.

[Ladyjane14]

Is divorce what you want now?

[Devildog]

Divorce has never been what I wanted. I have wanted to work on fixing things this whole time. She has been the one who has refused to work on things.

 

It's kind of funny. I called her tonight to see if she had taken care of getting her name off the joint account. She says that she decided on Sunday that she was going to give it a try and see about going to counseling. But I shot myself in the foot Monday with telling her I wanted to finish this and get my life back. Even though I spent the afternoon Sunday with her cleaning out the garage and going through stuff and trying once again to get her to try to work on fixing our marriage and she flat out refused to give it any consideration. Even though she hade several opportunities to mention that she was willing to try counseling, she never said anything. But I shot myself in the foot by saying I was done and wanted my life back.

 

She always does that. She doesn't say anything until it can have the most devestating effect. But the truth is that she says what will hurt the most whether it is true or not.

[Ladyjane14]

You know, you've really been put thru the ringer in all this. If you were to decide to give up the struggle over it, and move on with your life, I think it would be perfectly understandable. A person can only stand so much upheaval in their life on a daily basis.

 

Your wife has clearly lost a great deal of your respect. Both her actions, and at times, her inaction have caused harm to you. How could you not be angry and resentful?

 

Those emotions will block whatever love you have for her, and cloud your overall judgement making it difficult to decide what you want for the future.

 

Part of the MarriageBuilders Plan B is trying to preserve the love by not allowing the 'foggy' partner enough contact to be able to say hurtful things which exacerbate the negative emotions.

 

I'm not an expert by any means, but I really do think that if you put on a very effective Plan A, you'd be able to lead her back into family-life with you. At the reconciliation phase, you would be able to insist on counseling for the problems that were a catalyst to the separation.

 

In other words, you Plan A until the thing that she wants the most is to be your wife again. Then in order for that to happen, she must address her issues.

 

The only way to get through all that is to accept that she is a flawed, confused person. Then to love her in spite of it. You can't do that while protecting your own emotions. You have to put yourself out there, and it's a risk. You could get your heart trampled on. But haven't you already? So, what more do you have to lose?

 

I think I inadvertantly saved my marriage with Plan A. I didn't know anything about it at the time. I just went on instinct. Lucky, I guess.

 

I figured that unless I became a more attractive alternative, my husband was going to end up being just the latest in a long string of poor unfortunates whose lives were to be ruined by that particular cam-wh*re. I wasn't going to let her take him. Not so much from my own pride, as because of the devastation it was going to eventually mean for my husband.

 

It was kind of like having your own, personal crystal ball. I could see very clearly what his life would be if he fell into that trap. And it forced me to recognise that I loved him enough to put my anger aside and rescue him.

 

I think it's true what they say about a marriage coming back stronger after a crisis. Because we are happier than we've ever been, even though it's still less than perfect.

 

Sorry for the ramble. Thinking out loud today.

[Devildog]

Very wise insight Ladyjane, thank you. I see what you mean about the destrustion she will do to herself with this course. She will have horrible relationships and a revolving door of guys with short term relationships. I know I will feel pity for her if that happens. I would like to save her if I can.

 

Yeah, my heart has been through every setting you got on a blender including frappe. I can take anything thrown at me and still get back up. Might take awhile sometimes, but I still get up again.

 

So do I stop all contact or is there a different step I should be taking?

 

Thanks for your help and support in this Ladyjane, and sherell as well.

[sherell]

devildog, we are here for you buddy Ladyjane your insights are so right on. I have to say I think I worked the plan A, plan B thing without really knowing the <removed> program. Sometimes our gut instinct is the best advice we can give ourselves. You are a strong guy, with an enorumus amount of insight and depth, do what it takes on your end to salvage your marriage. If she does not come around, you know you did everything you could. I know my prevoius post said to put an end to this, but that was my anger speaking. You see how anger and frustration can cloud you, and make you very reactive. When that happens take a deep breath, and take no action. I did this for a year!!! it sucked, but I held my ground & kept my eye on the big picture. I really wanted my marriage to work, and thank god, he finally came around. If this is really want you want, try to hang in there for as long as you can stand it.

[Ladyjane14]

So do I stop all contact or is there a different step I should be taking?

 

I'm a bit hesitant to give you advice in regards to Plan A or Plan B. I haven't been reading at MarriageBuilders for very long. Perhaps a PM to TMCM is in order, although I haven't seen a post by him in some time.

 

To be honest, I think that there may still be some Plan A work to do, whereby you make very certain that your wife sees you as an atttractive alternative to whatever lifestyle she currently imagines for herself.

 

However, my understanding of Plan A is that it is no longer valid when the WS is "having her cake and eating it too". In other words, you are fulfilling some of her needs and the OP (or other lifestyle) is fulfilling the rest.

 

Plan B takes away the loving support that Plan A has established, throwing the alternative lifestyle into stark contrast with the comfort being withdrawn. It also preserves the love that you feel for your WS by disallowing hurtful, nonproductive interactions.

 

This has to be your call, Devidog. Only you know your situation best.

 

I would say that if you do elect Plan B, that you go ahead and write the letter. The letter is supposed to let her know that you really do WANT to save the marriage, and that you love her very much. But, that you need her to stop doing whatever it is that has become detrimental to the marriage in order for that to happen. The letter should let her know that continued contact is harmful for you because it is destoying the love that you are trying to preserve for her. (You really should read a few at MarriageBuilders before you do this.)

 

I wasn't going to let her take him. Not so much from my own pride, as because of the devastation it was going to eventually mean for my husband.

 

It was kind of like having your own, personal crystal ball. I could see very clearly what his life would be if he fell into that trap. And it forced me to recognise that I loved him enough to put my anger aside and rescue him.

 

I spent a little more time thinking about what I told you above. I think it was sympathy for my husband that allowed me to overcome my anger and resentment.

 

Sympathy is a tender emotion, but it's also very strong. While Love can be blocked by Anger and Resentment, these are not proof against Sympathy.

 

The drawback to relying on it is that Pride has to be set aside. And it'll try to sneak back in like 8 times a day! Pride will tell you that you're being a sap. Pride says that your partner is making a fool of you.

 

Pride is a lion. Sympathy is a lamb. They won't lie down gently together! Particularly not when the lion is experiencing the gnawing hunger of Doubt. Your lion will try to devour your lamb in this situation if you let it.

 

Pride is a good thing. It's the cornerstone of self-esteem. You just have to ALWAYS be careful what you feed it. It's best fed on accomplishment, service to others, the realization of personal goals, good stuff like that.

 

I've learned not to let it feed on my more tender emotions. It finds my negative emotions much less palatable, and if left undeterred it will gorge on everything else leaving me all the rotten ones!

 

This is how I managed to find my way around the constant stinkin' thinkin' that I was having during the crisis period. I had to recognise both Fear and Pride. I had to put them back in their places.

 

Maybe it all comes down to managing your own emotions. It's a b*tch of a job, and I'm never as successful at it as I'd like to be. But I do keep plodding along.