Marriage in jeopardy due to male "friend" with an agenda

[Gatsby]

but you can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved.

 

 

You said it all right there. Regardless of why she is acting the way she is you obviously don't have the power to change her. I believed in that idea of eternal love, the notion that no matter what happened my obligation was to work through it. The fact is love is not guaranteed nor is it unconditional.

 

 

I still care about her and it hurts me to think about what will happen when she finally does realize what she did and how horribly and unjustly she treated me. It makes me sad to think that by the time she realizes all this it will most likely be too late. That she will have to live the rest of her life regreting what she did and losing out on pure devotion and love

 

 

You are making a big assumption. For all you know she will always think this was a great decision for her. I'm not trying to be cruel, but your believing that is a way for you to ease your pain. You can keep your memories without having her validate them for you. This feeling also signals your willingness to reject all the guilt she has tried to lay at your feet.

 

 

I hate that I have ended up half hating her and half feeling sadness for her. I know I am much better off outside of that family, but I truly loved, and still love, my wife. I don't want her to have to suffer. I guess being an honorable, devoted person means you are a sucker.

 

 

Well, which is it? Do you hate her or love her? I think you may love the person in your memories but are now starting to see who she is. It's not easy to do. People are flawed. Love allows us to look past the quirks and idosyncracies of our partner. How many times do people say "How does he live with her?" or "Why does she let him do that?" Love is blind. You are starting to see her flaws because she no longer forgives you yours.

 

 

As far as staying friends, I don't see it. I know some people that have pulled it off but not after going through something similar to your sitution. Remain cordial and be a good father. That's about the best you can do. I've tried to be friendly/funny with my ex and it just feels to phony. I don't need to be her buddy to be a better person.

 

 

And don't let her manipulate you. Why do you think she always comes back with some sort of hook when you threaten to be done with her. She is in the drivers seat with the other guy as long as another man is interested in her. Just get out. She immediately loses power. If she wanted to really work at the marriage both of you would be in counseling and the OM would be out of the picture. None of this "He's just a friend" BS.

 

 

Ladyjane, the eternal optimist(I mean that in a good way) ,has given you some good advice but I think the reality is sinking in.

[Devildog]

Sorry it has been awhile since any updates. Not much new to mention really until now.

 

I did something the other day that seemed to have more of an impact than I expected. I sent her an email:

I just want you to know something. At this time, I am not closing the door on us. I don't know how long it will stay open, but for the time being it is. I am not ready to move on to any new relationships and won't be ready for some time yet. I am getting back into doing things for myself, getting back to the person you once knew and fell in love with, and the person I like being.

 

If you decide sometime in the future that you want to try again, don't be afraid to call me. We can't go back to what it was before. I don't think either of us wants that back. But we could start something new, possibly something better than either of us dreamed of. It would take work, and dedication and commitment from both of us.

 

Our relationship has been through alot. My love for you has been tested by the fires of hell, and has come out stronger than ever. I do care very deeply about you, and I do still love you very much. There isn't anything, and I mean anything, that could ever destroy that love. Even if you did sleep with (the friend) it wouldn't destroy my love for you. It would have earlier in our marriage, but not anymore.

 

Whatever you decide to do, please take good care of yourself. Protect your heart, and your sense of self worth, and your values. Don't let anyone use you. I would hate to see you get hurt by anyone or anything. And I don't want (our daughter) to see you hurt either. I want her to know her Mommy as a happy, love filled, and loved person. You deserve happiness, not heartache.

 

The purpose of the email was so if she did decide that she had made a mistake and regretted this path, that she wouldn't think I would never forgive her and she wouldn't even try. She called me in tears after reading it. She didn't know what to say to it. I told her I didn't expect her to say anything. I just wanted her to know is all.

 

At this point I think the "friend" is out of the picture. He got what he wanted, and lost interest. What kind of piece of garbage has no problems with wrecking a marriage, and destroying a 3 year old little girl's world just to get a piece of tail and then walk away without a concern? I found out this morning it is a genetic thing apparently.

 

I had to take my Mom for a surgical procedure this morning. I ran into a guy I knew from High School and got to talking with him. Explained the situation of what is going on. He grew up and hung around with a number of guys from the town we lived in. Apparently the "friend's" older brother did this exact same thing to another guy we went to High School with, who was married and had 3 kids. What a sick family that they have no qualms about ruining other people's lives like that. I am sure there is a special place in hell for people like that, and if there isn't I will create one when I get down there. I have a nice corner office down there with a great view of the flames.

 

Still no idea where things are going. She hasn't mentioned anything new with the divorce or the lawyer. She did actually call me and told me about a going out of business sale at the mall and that she wanted to know if I wanted her to pick up a couple toys they had for our daughter for Christmas. Not sure if I should read anything into that. She also mentioned something that was part of the problem with our relationship, me not saying what is really on my mind. I don't know if that should be read as still wanting to work on things or not. Don't want to get my hopes up though.

 

I think that brings things up to speed.

[Ladyjane14]

You know Devildog, if your marriage doesn't work out, you'll never have to wonder for a minute on the question of 'if you did everything you could to save it'. You can rest assured knowing in your heart that you did everything possible.

 

Even if you did sleep with (the friend) it wouldn't destroy my love for you. It would have earlier in our marriage, but not anymore.

 

I'm certain that you thought this through, and that you meant it. My only suggestion would be to spend some time thinking about how you will handle this if it indeed becomes necessary.

 

She also mentioned something that was part of the problem with our relationship, me not saying what is really on my mind.

 

Next time, maybe a little reminder that you're working through issues like that? Maybe tell her that in your next relationship, you'd like to have better communications. Waggle your eyebrows at her and suggest she might want to get in on some o' that.

 

Reintroduce flirting while you're imparting information, just a little bit though. She needs to earn her way back, so don't make it too easy. It's like fishing for trout, you gotta jiggle the line now and then.

 

I am sure there is a special place in hell for people like that, and if there isn't I will create one when I get down there. I have a nice corner office down there with a great view of the flames.

 

 

:lmao: :lmao: I snorted my coffee through my nose when I read that this morning. You owe me some dry-cleaning.

[Devildog]

Coffee through the nose? That has to hurt

 

We always used to joke about that. I am a really nice guy, but I have a vicious evil streak in me, no doubt about that. When pushed, there is a fury there that you don't want to be on the receiving end of. I used to tell her I was her Guardian Demon. I would protect her from any harm or hurt I could, but I don't always follow the rules. I will do anything I have to in defense of those I love.

[SoleMate]

Wow...devildog...beautiful email. So clear...so loving...so emotionally whole.

 

I really feel for you two. Losing a child is possibly the worst stress a marriage can go through, not to mention being the single most painful experience either of you will EVER likely endure. You hardly need this advice, but I still want to say that I think you should both act with great compassion for each other. For what you've suffered, and how you have both tried to cope with the pain that at times I am sure seemed almost unendurable.

 

None of us knows what the future holds, but I do have hope for you two. Like ladyjane said, there can never be any question in your mind that you have been doing your best. Hugs...

[Devildog]

Thanks solemate. I agree, there is no knowing what will happen for me. It is all in her hands. It just seems like sometimes she is specifically trying to drive me away. Like she wants me to hate her. I have been paying half of the rent for the last 2 months on a house I wasn't living in. This month she spent over half of her first paycheck on Christmas shopping and then her glasses broke this past week and she had to spend almost half of this paycheck to have them replaced. So she expects me to pay the full months rent this month because she can't afford it. That is my entire paycheck for the next 2 weeks!!! And she has the audacity to get mad at me for mentioning that. It is like she doesn't want to face the consequences of her choice.

 

And tomorrow she will probably call and apologize for it.

[Devildog]

You want to know the thing that makes me want to beat my head against a wall with all of this? The things she says. The other day I went to get a haircut. The girl giving me a haircut seemed a bit more "physical" I guess you could say? I hadn't had a haircut where the stylist was pressing her chest and stomach against me so much. Running her fingers through my hair over and over again. (My hair has always been one of my best points, thick and dark and shiny and soft.) When I went to pay for my haircut, there was a girl sitting there waiting for her turn, and she was just staring at me. I don't know if I just never bothered to notice things like that before since I was married and had no interest in noticing things like that or what.

 

I mentioned it to my wife (mostly to see if she would reveal any jealousy). And she pointed out I am a very physically attractive man. So since she went into Seperation/Divorce mode she has told me I am easy on the eyes, an incredibly wonderful father, and a very deeply devoted, caring, compassionate and loving husband. Oh yeah, and according to her, very well "gifted" in the area where it counts and quite capable of using it to wonderful effect. So if she thinks all these things about me, WHY IS SHE LEAVING ME???? By her own admission I am a wonderful "catch" and "prize" that most women would love to have. So why doesn't she want to have me?

 

And to answer any questions about why I didn't do anything about the attention I was getting, I said girls because that is what they seemed like to me. They might have been legal drinking age, but not much more than that. 9-10 years younger is a little too young for my tastes. They were attractive though.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Devildog

I have been paying half of the rent for the last 2 months on a house I wasn't living in. This month she spent over half of her first paycheck on Christmas shopping and then her glasses broke this past week and she had to spend almost half of this paycheck to have them replaced. So she expects me to pay the full months rent this month because she can't afford it. That is my entire paycheck for the next 2 weeks!!! And she has the audacity to get mad at me for mentioning that. It is like she doesn't want to face the consequences of her choice.

 

"It is like she doesn't want to face the consequences of her choice."

 

How many consequences is she facing? One of the down-sides of making a decision that breaks apart your family is that the standard of living that you were once accustomed to becomes difficult to maintain. This isn't terribly inconveniencing however, if your STBX will still give you most of his money.

 

I only know what you post. But I've never read anything here about this woman facing a consequence. She doesn't even face an mild adversity if you can cushion the blow for her.

 

The losses she has faced are tragic. But they aren't your fault. Why are you paying the price for her lack of compunction to address her own emotional issues? You are paying both literally and figuratively. What is up with that?

 

At some point, she's going to have to deal with the reality of her situation.

 

I know you want her back. It's what's best for all of you. But she has no incentive. She's getting what she thinks she wants, and you're abetting her in it. I know it seems unfair to apply pressure, and that you want her to be with you because it's her free and unvarnished choice.

 

If she had gone for grief counseling or IC, then she'd be able to make an informed decision with all her faculties in place. And if she didn't want to be with you then you'd know it came from her heart. How can you know that now, when all indicators say that she's not emotionally sound?

 

If you can't get a lawyer and hammer out a legal agreement to what the finances should be, then how about doing some research into what the child support ought to be? Give her that, and nothing else. Reality begins to creep into her fantasy-world.

 

I mentioned it to my wife (mostly to see if she would reveal any jealousy). And she pointed out I am a very physically attractive man. So since she went into Seperation/Divorce mode she has told me I am easy on the eyes, an incredibly wonderful father, and a very deeply devoted, caring, compassionate and loving husband. Oh yeah, and according to her, very well "gifted" in the area where it counts and quite capable of using it to wonderful effect. So if she thinks all these things about me, WHY IS SHE LEAVING ME???? By her own admission I am a wonderful "catch" and "prize" that most women would love to have. So why doesn't she want to have me?

 

She's either 'trying'to-get-your-goat', or she's hoping you'll move on and leave her alone. She's couching one or the other of those motives in pretty compliments. Don't be fooled.

 

It'd be really easy right now to say, "call her bluff and hit her with the separation papers". I think it's too early for that though. She hasn't yet had a taste of what she's asking for.

 

If I were you, I think I'd still be the pleasant, attractive alternative to financial ruination. Establish a stable home environment for your little girl just in case you decide to become her primary caregiver. (Your wife may fall flat on her face without you to prop her up, so it's best to be prepared.)

 

Be nice, be sweet....but get her hand out of your pocket.

[Devildog]

You are right Ladyjane, I haven't been strong enough in showing her the reality of her decision. I should work on that but it isn't easy.

 

Be nice, be sweet....but get her hand out of your pocket.

 

It has been over 3 months since I have had any kind of intimate physical contact, her hand in my pocket would be very welcome at this point.

[Ladyjane14]

:lmao: Too Funny!

[Devildog]

Well, I think one way or the other things are about to reach their climax. She has been getting really ugly lately. The impression I have is that she is realizing what she has done, realizes she has made a mistake, but she is too damn stubborn and doesn't want to admit it yet. So either she finally cracks and admits to herself that I am not the problem, or she will successfully push me to the point of absolute hate and loathing. Only time will tell the outcome, and it will depend on just how ugly she gets before she cracks.

[Devildog]

I think after the holidays I am going to disappear for a week or two. From everyone. My wife, my family, friends, everyone. Every single one of them has done their part to make me miserable through this whole ordeal. My wife for obvious reasons, my family for not being able to keep their mouths shut any time they see my wife. Friends, same issue. They have all made this worse than it should have ever been.

 

So I might just go missing for awhile. Not tell them where I am going, not answer my cell phone. If there is an emergency they can leave a voice message. Maybe all of them need to realize what they will lose if they all don't grow up.

[Ladyjane14]

You don't have to "go missing" to withdraw from the situation. Not good for your little girl anyhow.

 

It's discouraging when you're doing everything you can to put your family back together and your wife is doing everything she can to break it apart.

 

That, in part, is what the MarriageBuilder's plan B is about. Preserving the love by limiting hurtful interactions while allowing the WS to deal with the realities of the situation.

 

You don't have to "go missing" for that. You do have to set boundaries though.

 

I've always been concerned that you would allow her to push you to the point where your love for her was diminished, and that there would be a breaking point.

 

If you're getting close to it, why not try the plan B? What do you have to lose?

 

My understanding of plan B though, is that writing the letter is a MUST. It's the roadmap to reconciliation for the WS. It tells her in a loving way, exactly what she must accomplish to earn her way back.

[VirginiaBob]

"I hate that I have ended up half hating her and half feeling sadness for her. I know I am much better off outside of that family, but I truly loved, and still love, my wife. I don't want her to have to suffer. I guess being an honorable, devoted person means you are a sucker."

 

I know the feeling, especially the last line you wrote about being a sucker. I know all about the half hating and half loving her. I wish my ex would call me back someday and want to be with me again, but at the same time I dread that call.

[Devildog]

I know it isn't the answer Ladyjane, but right now I need to get away from all of it. I just got off the phone with my wife, sheisthisclose to agreeing to go to a counselor with me. But thanks to comments and actions on the part of my father and brother yesterday, I don't know if I can get her that last bit.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Devildog

But thanks to comments and actions on the part of my father and brother yesterday, I don't know if I can get her that last bit.

 

What did they do?

[Devildog]

Long story, the rift between her and my father goes back about 3 years, they are both stubborn and neither one will make any steps towards reconciling. With everything that has been going on, it has gotten worse. My father and brother was helping me get the last of my stuff out of our house and she was there and apparently my father was making comments when I wasn't around to my wife. She won't tell me what was said, but I also heard from my brother that he had made some comments that were just cruel. IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS TO INTERFERE WITH WHAT HAPPENS TO MY WIFE AND I!!!!

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Devildog

IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS TO INTERFERE WITH WHAT HAPPENS TO MY WIFE AND I!!!!

 

Too right it's not! Have you explained to them that any interference on their part could influence the outcome of your family dynamic? While I don't blame them for being defensive on your behalf, (they are your family afterall), they need to take their cue from you.

 

Have a nice talk with them if at all possible. Try to make them see that if they want to help, they have to do it your way. Otherwise, butt out.

[Ladyjane14]

p.s. Do you think she would agree to meet with your counselor if you made the appointment for her? Either with you or on her own?

[Devildog]

Too right it's not! Have you explained to them that any interference on their part could influence the outcome of your family dynamic? While I don't blame them for being defensive on your behalf, (they are your family afterall), they need to take their cue from you.

 

Have a nice talk with them if at all possible. Try to make them see that if they want to help, they have to do it your way. Otherwise, butt out.

 

That will be a topic of conversation over the holiday, trust me. I plan on laying it out for them. That there is a possibility of us reconciling, and it seems that possibility is now growing. It is my decision to make, not their's. If we do reconcile they can put the past behind them, and try to start over with a clean slate. But that chapter will be put away and never touched again. If they don't accept that, then they will not have me as a part of their lives. My wife and child and family is the most important priority in my life. I would expect my wife to do the same with her family.

 

Do you think she would agree to meet with your counselor if you made the appointment for her? Either with you or on her own?

 

No, not with my counselor. I have had quite a few sessions and in my wife's mind she will be, and already is, biased against her. I told her that it was something my counselor and I had discussed and if my wife wanted to do marriage counseling she would have no problem referring us to someone else. I would actually prefer that my wife find a counselor and go a few times alone before we go as a couple so she can feel comfortable with the counselor and the counselling process before hand.

 

So how do I approach this? Do I turn on the sugar, or do I keep her at arms length and make her fully realize the implications of her decision? Is the realization that we won't be together as a family for Christmas part of what has her at this point? Do I want to wait a bit longer and possibly miss out on what has been the best opportunity so far?

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Devildog

So how do I approach this? Do I turn on the sugar, or do I keep her at arms length and make her fully realize the implications of her decision? Is the realization that we won't be together as a family for Christmas part of what has her at this point? Do I want to wait a bit longer and possibly miss out on what has been the best opportunity so far?

 

I think alot of it depends on how long you can continue to go on without losing your ability to love her.

 

Possibly, the best option is to let her know that you want to make a nice Christmas for your little one...together if possible. Make the most out of any opportunity she presents to you. Turn on the charm. Be sweet. And let her know that you'd like a meeting with her after the holiday to discuss the options.

 

Then, at your meeting, you can let her know that the window of opportunity for reconciliation is closing. That you cannot maintain your love for her when she is hurting you so with her rejection. Ask her at that time if she really wants a divorce.

 

If she says 'yes'. Divorce her. Period.

 

If she says, 'no'. Insist on MC.

 

What do you think?

[Ladyjane14]

p.s. I would NOT allow her to draw me into any relationship discussion until after Christmas, not unless I had to. If refusing to discuss it would cause a fight, I'd do it. But if you can get a graceful reprieve........ You could then spend some quality time allowing her to see the terrific guy she would be giving up. Fighting would defeat that purpose.

[Ladyjane14]

Oh, and one more thing. If you do decide to give her an ultimatum, make absolutely certain that you are prepared to back it up. I know you already know that. I just felt better saying it.

 

She's had months of separation now. She can't keep you dangling forever. If she still can't make a decision, then she should get herself down for some IC without delay. If she won't bother, then you can extract her answer from her refusal to get some help.

 

If she does elect divorce as her answer, get yourself a GOOD LAWYER. Please, do that. You'll hate yourself later if you don't. She hasn't been looking out for your best interest in any of this to date. She's unlikely to start now if divorce is what she wants.

 

Make sure you get at mimimum joint custody of your daughter and at least half the marital assets. Even if that means selling the house (if you are a homeowner). Don't be a jacka$$ about it, but make sure you don't end up with the fuzzy end of the lollipop.

 

If she wants to take it to the line, she'll have to be a big girl and make it on her own.

 

If she pulls that 'let's be friends routine', outline the limitations of friendship. You don't pay your 'friends' bills. Why should you pay hers? And if she can't maintian a decent home for your child.....well, your child is always welcome with you, right?

 

[Devildog]

Well, the arrangement for Christmas was I had Christmas Eve day with my daughter, and my wife got Christmas Day. My family has always done things on Christmas Eve so no problems there. My wife dropped our daughter off on Dec. 23 in the evening so she could wake up and open presents with me in the morning right away. We talked a bit again. I tossed out the idea for counselling again. She seems to be warming to the idea. She is offering less resistance to it. She hugged me before she left. That hasn't happened in a while.

 

But that wasn't the strangest part of it. I brought our daughter back last night. As I was unloading some of the stuff from the car, I handed her a small gift bag. It was just a little thing because I wanted to make sure my wife got something from our daughter for Christmas. As I was getting ready to go and Say "Merry Christmas", she said "I Love You". Just like that, it wasn't like this tearful, overwhelming moment or anything. Just like she used to say it. She hasn't said that in months now. I asked her if it was a Fruedian Slip and she said yeah, I guess so. She apologized for it. I told her not to apologize for something like that.

 

I don't know if I am just getting my hopes up and looking for good signs or what. But it just looks like things might be moving towards reconciliation.

 

I wear my wedding ring again when I am at home.

[Ladyjane14]

Well, those are mixed-signals alright.

 

Either she honestly has not made up her mind on what she wants, or.....she's playing you like a violin!!!

 

You know her best. Which one is it?