Mr Scorpio Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I touched on this issue in another thread, but wanted to receive as much advice as I could. In February I started jogging on a treadmill in intervals, five minutes on followed by five minutes off. I slowly crept up until I could go thirty minutes at six miles per hour. I loved it and never felt any lasting pain, even if I jogged two or three days in a row. Until nine days ago, when I simply increased the speed on the treadmill to 6.5 miles per hour (a 9:15ish mile as opposed to a 10:00). I put in about 20 minutes at that pace. Almost immediately after ending I knew I had pushed myself too hard, as my right calf muscle was not happy with me. Painful but worth it for the sense of achievement. Then, two days later, my right knee began to hurt. It is a very slight pain that comes and goes throughout the day. It is most noticeable when driving. The knee never swelled, and it isn't painful to the touch. The pain is almost exclusively on the inside/top of my right knee. It's been nine days since I did any form of cardio and the pain has neither increased nor subsided. Any idea what this could be? It seems absurd that I'd have runners knee after putting in less than 150 miles. I'm wearing "good" running shoes. I didn't play any sports or run track in high-school. I'm a bit young to have arthritis. I'm going to stop by the running-speciality store later today in hopes of getting a reference to a PT. However, I plan to wait a few more days and then try some light cardio to see if the pain gets any worse. Link to post Share on other sites
Lobouspo Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Probably not arthritis...yet. Sounds like you just have some meniscus that needs to be scoped which can happen from normal wear and tear as we age. I have had knee issues and if you ride a stationary bike and/or do leg extensions that will strengthen your quadriceps which should make your knee feel better. Of course, if it does not get better, see your doctor. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
chuzzbug Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Lay off the knee completely. Don't run, skip, or even walk too much. But I'm sure you already know this, though I suggest that you try rolling your IT band and your quad muscles. Sometimes knee issues are caused by muscles pulling on the knee cap. Rolling loosens the muscles and can greatly reduce the pain. I wouldn't try to see whether the pain gets worse by further exercising. Wait for the pain to stop completely for walking, then try to exercise. Step ups help work the muscles that stabilize the knee. You don't need to step very high - 6" is enough - but keep the heel of the foot that is moving down. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
tman666 Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I like the suggestion of foam rolling. Be sure to hit your rectus femoris, IT bands, hip flexors, and glutes. As far as exercises, you probably ought to lay off of the running and any squatting for a little bit to allow the inflammation to go down. While you're recovering, you might try to strengthen your hamstrings/glutes (RDLs, barbell hip thrusts, hyperextensions, etc.), and do some "rehab" work on your quad such as terminal knee extensions (TKEs) with a resistance band. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
StandingO Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 This kind of thing happened to me off and on too. Inflammation was always a hidden contributor. Muscle imbalance and hip alignment too. Since I have improved muscle endurance and use of smaller muscles and better use of hamstrings. Lighter controller exercises helped. My knee tracks better. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I like the suggestion of foam rolling. Be sure to hit your rectus femoris, IT bands, hip flexors, and glutes. As far as exercises, you probably ought to lay off of the running and any squatting for a little bit to allow the inflammation to go down. While you're recovering, you might try to strengthen your hamstrings/glutes (RDLs, barbell hip thrusts, hyperextensions, etc.), and do some "rehab" work on your quad such as terminal knee extensions (TKEs) with a resistance band. I bet it's strength and stretching issues 1 Link to post Share on other sites
tman666 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I bet it's strength and stretching issues Most soft tissue issues are! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Imported Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) I had/have knee problems. I tried waiting for it to get better before running, but it always came back. Stretching before/after running helps. Leg extensions and using bigger fins to flutter kick in the pool helped. And using a patella strap helped a lot. Was really surprised with this strap Amazon.com: Mueller Jumper's Knee Strap, Gold, One Size: Health & Personal Care . It is not much and I had doubts it'd do anything. When I tried it, I had given up on waiting for the pain to go away and was pretty much limping when I walked. But I put the strap on, ran and everything felt fine and I was fine after running. Three days of running with the strap on and I felt great and started running without it. Now if I feel my knee starting to hurt a little, I run with the strap a day or two till my knee feels good and then go back to no strap. Also, I think running faster in good form will be better for you. I only had knee problems on the days I felt hung over and took it easy with a nice slow run.....which probably I did with more up/down motion than my norm. If you were ....."yogging" at the slower pace, I can see that being OK for keep leg pains at bay, but jogging is just horrible form. Edited June 12, 2013 by Imported 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mr Scorpio Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 Thank you everyone for the input. I still haven't jogged/run other than hurrying in a store parking lot to get out of the way for other people. The good news is that I have a free consultation on Monday at a "holistic healing center" dedicated to treating runners. So hopefully I'll be shown the stretches you all spoke of. Otherwise, I'll look them up. Link to post Share on other sites
StandingO Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Most soft tissue issues are! True when it comes down to it it all stems from poor flexibility not enough strength in the area. I developed hip and knee issues from having a lower body not able to sustain my upper body when sudden complex movements were required. It caught up to me as I aged and now I pay the price Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Thank you everyone for the input. I still haven't jogged/run other than hurrying in a store parking lot to get out of the way for other people. The good news is that I have a free consultation on Monday at a "holistic healing center" dedicated to treating runners. So hopefully I'll be shown the stretches you all spoke of. Otherwise, I'll look them up. Keep us updated please, I'm curious how different their advice is from what you received here. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mr Scorpio Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 Keep us updated please, I'm curious how different their advice is from what you received here. I sat down and answered a series of questions, then performed a couple of squats to check for pain. After that, I laid down on a table and the doc noted that one of my legs was longer than the other! He said this wasn't due to any growth imbalance. Rather, it was because my pelvis was out of balance. The doc went into the science behind his approach, which was basically that when a muscle is overworked it neurologically "shuts down" other muscles up the chain. So, I then laid down on a table while the doc bent my knee/leg/foot at various angles and told me to resist him pushing/pulling me one way or the other. I was terribly unable to prevent him from manipulating me, and some of the pressure resulted in slight pain. After twenty minutes of somewhat painful massage, we re-did all these mini-tests, and he was hardly able to budge me, and there was no pain. I was skeptical of the approach, but grateful that at least my legs were the same length at that point. Afterwards, I felt noticeably lighter than I had before, which was attributed to better alignment between my parts. All-in-all I'd say it was a positive experience. Unfortuntalely 1) since it was an initial free consultation it certainly didn't correct the problem, 2) future visits with no insurance are $150 a piece, 3) he advised me to not squat or run until everything is corrected. So, I either throw caution to the wind and continue to train, take money out of savings now to continue with treatment, or wait a few months until I get more sweet-sweet student loan money and then get treated. Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 All-in-all I'd say it was a positive experience. Unfortuntalely 1) since it was an initial free consultation it certainly didn't correct the problem, 2) future visits with no insurance are $150 a piece, 3) he advised me to not squat or run until everything is corrected. So.... monster walks as per in the clip I had posted on your other thread? Free of charge? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
jf2good Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 So was this holistic center a chiropractor? I have had knee pain in my left knee for over a week now that won't go away, not serious pain but bothersome. I did some exercise with a personal trainer at the gym, I told them the last time I did a class at the gym it bother my knees but they got better, but they don't seem to understand that at my age and weight I can't do those exercises, seem like everything is squats of some sort or jumps. So never never again a personal trainer. I can exercise hard, I can sweat, but I am over 50 and 250 lbs, jumping up and down on my knees is not good oh no. I don't want to go to a regular doctor because take 2 aspirin isn't going to work, already been doing that. Pain meds cover up the issue, not fix it. Not sure if a Chiropractor would work, aren't they for the back and neck only? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mr Scorpio Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 So was this holistic center a chiropractor? Not sure if a Chiropractor would work, aren't they for the back and neck only? No. It was physical therapy involving a rather painful massage designed to get my muscles "firing" again. I felt a bit better thereafter, although the pain is still there. I believe if I could afford the treatment it would eliminate a lot of my daily pain (knee, lower/upper back, neck). Maybe somday. Link to post Share on other sites
RonaldS Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 What good is laying off the knee going to do? It's probably not injured, just inflamed. If it were injured, the op would know it. So, lets lay off the knee until the inflammation goes down. Then what? It's just going to flare up again as soon as he starts running again. By running, you are not using any of those ligaments or exerting them in a way that they're not designed to be used. Resting it doesn't do any good, because the op is probably not identifying and correcting the issue causing the inflammation. These things are almost always the result of some imbalance, improper alignment, gait issue or footwear. If the OP has not been running for long, he/she might not have adequate musculature built up to support those ligaments. In fact, if I were a betting man, I would say that's at least part of the problem. All resting really does is fool you into thinking that you're 'healed', but the problem will persist. I would be willing to bet that if the OP lays off the knee for 3 weeks, and the inflammation subsides, that the first time he goes out and bangs out 20 min @ 9mph, that knee is going to be screaming again a couple days later. Core strength and balance is critical. Musculature is critical. Build those up. I play a lot of basketball. A LOT. And I'm 39. Two leagues a week, plus two more days of pick-up games. And I'm a burner. Sprinting, jumping, flying all the time all over the place. My knees have hurt since the late 80s. No biggie. Just keep playing. So, they hurt, but I've never had an injury other than some slightly torn meniscus. And basketball is the knee injury sport of all sports. Laying off the knee is counterproductive. The ligaments are not accustomed to the load, and you probably lack the musculature to support them. You're hurting, but unless you heard and felt a 'pop' and found yourself lying on the floor in the fetal position clutching your knee, you're not injured. People need to stop treating their bodies like newborn babies. You're using it for what it's built for. Don't be afraid of it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mr Scorpio Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 What good is laying off the knee going to do? It's probably not injured, just inflamed. If it were injured, the op would know it. So, lets lay off the knee until the inflammation goes down. Then what? It's just going to flare up again as soon as he starts running again. I suppose it has been a while since I updated my status. I still haven't run since the calf/knee started hurting, which is about six weeks ago at this point. I switched over to more lifting, which included leg workouts. The first two leg workouts went fine, but the day after the second one, both my knees began 'cracking' when I bent them. No pain. Just noise. Went to the doctor. He bent my knee every which way, and eliminated any meniscus damage as being the problem. He suspects bursitis. So, next Tuesday is my first PT appointment. I feel somewhat guilty for spending the $$$ when I'm not experiencing any pain. But damnit, I want to be able to run again! Link to post Share on other sites
RonaldS Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I suppose it has been a while since I updated my status. I still haven't run since the calf/knee started hurting, which is about six weeks ago at this point. I switched over to more lifting, which included leg workouts. The first two leg workouts went fine, but the day after the second one, both my knees began 'cracking' when I bent them. No pain. Just noise. Went to the doctor. He bent my knee every which way, and eliminated any meniscus damage as being the problem. He suspects bursitis. So, next Tuesday is my first PT appointment. I feel somewhat guilty for spending the $$$ when I'm not experiencing any pain. But damnit, I want to be able to run again! Oh, yeah....my knees do that constantly. Bursitis? Maybe, but there is typically pain associated with bursitis, as there is inflammation of the bursa sacs due to the friction of ligaments moving over them. One of the gyms I go to, a very hardcore and heavily certified gym specializing in kettlebell, TRX and functional movement...a girl there was complaint about her knees cracking, and the instructor said, 'If it doesn't hurt, don't worry about it'. Now, these guys are not in the business of injuring their clients. Anyway, if you think you need pt, then do it. If you don't have any pain, though, what are you fixing? I mean, other than some doc's and some pt's revenue streams? Seriously, to me 'maybe torn miniscus' is sort of a safe prognosis. I've had torn meniscus. It hurts. When the flap of cartilage folds over, typically for me during flexion of the knee while running hard, it always felt like somebody was stabbing me in the side of the knee with a knife. After a few steps and flexion/extension, the pain would go away and it was business as usual. Try the pt, but if it were me, I would keep running on it and lifting. Until you strengthen those muscles and adequately support those ligaments, you're never really going to get past step 1. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mr Scorpio Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 Anyway, if you think you need pt, then do it. If you don't have any pain, though, what are you fixing? I want my right knee to feel like my left one, which is to say I want it to feel "normal". Link to post Share on other sites
AlexDP Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I bet it's strength and stretching issues You mean it's a strength issue. It's always a strength issue. The tough part is finding out what needs fixing and how. I swear to you, I still screw up my deadlift form now and again and if I do I don't get the posterior chain benefits from the lift and my knee starts to hurt. Correcting stuff like a bum knee is really hard at times. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mr Scorpio Posted September 7, 2013 Author Share Posted September 7, 2013 Monday, I finally got to jog on a treadmill pain free for the first time since starting this thread. While I still have some spots to "clean-up", I'm much better off than I was. No more fearing taking the steps instead of the elevator. As some speculated, a lack of strength played a role in my problem. However, what really made the difference for me was self-massage. Specifically, self-massage on the bottom of my right foot using a ball, and also on my peroneal muscles, also using a ball. The clips below demonstrate what worked for me: Shin/peroneal self massage - YouTube Peroneal Case Study - YouTube Link to post Share on other sites
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