The Proof God Exists (sort of).

[loveregardless]

I tend to notice that belief in a god seems to inhibit the reaching of ones full potential, and prevents mankind from advancing medically and scientifically.

 

Funny, my idea of "advancement" seems to be far different then yours. I don't see an egotistically controlling species overpowering nature and trying to play "God" as advancement...I see it as ignorance and greed. These "advancements" are exactly why we are NOT evolving PHYSICALLY; but de-evolving. It is exactly as we have discussed on several forums before this one; the reason why as a species we are only growing continually more diseased and "weaker".

 

In order for evolution to take place, there would have to be reproduction [only] of the fittest. Now, more often than not, our fittest use birth control.

 

As you know Dyer I agree with this statement 100%, but I was speaking of our thought pattern shifting and spiritual evolution.

 

It confuses me as to why some individuals would hold on to outdated, unnecessary ideals which stem from a belief in a god.

 

It confuses me that someone would hold onto such an egotistical mind set such as the one you parade around. If I were you, I would be embarrassed to tell everyone how shallow, inhibited and controlled by my ego that I am. Again I would like to say, it is quite obvious that people like you, who have no ABILITY to grasp the occult or unexplainable, even when they can't explain it away, are clearly LESS evolved then those of us you so feverishly insult.

 

I have no trouble proving this at all. Your religious beliefs would, no doubt, prevent you from even taking my arguments into consideration.

 

I don't belong to ANY religion and I base my life on SCIENCE and REASON just as much as the next person. Likewise, I was a psychology major while attending college as you so proudly acknowledge in your arguments. Obviously it is because of YOUR religious beliefs that you cannot see OUR argument. I can see you argument quite clearly, and I can fully comprehend how LIMITED your perceptions truly are. As I said before, ALL great teachers, philosophers, cultures and "religions" in ancient times were well aware of what todays "humans" often cannot fathom. Being that you are so supremely limited by your PHYSICAL senses, of course you would have no possible understanding of these concepts. However it is very obvious that you are the one who is restricting your own "potential", rather than the other way around.

 

I'm so evolved I can see God is for the (intellectually) cro-magnon man.

 

Just for the record, I don't see his arguments as anything even closely resembling intelligence, I see it as a lot of things, but certainly not as intelligence. Ignorance, judgment, close mindedness; those seem a little more accurate to me.

 

Please do tell me oh magnificent one, how again is it that you EXPLAIN away all of the phenomenon we discuss in this forum; and the phenomenon I made mention of in my last post. Being that I am so UN-advanced and evolutionarily sub-par, it is impossible for my feeble mind to understand.

 

P.S. Dyer may be getting tired of arguing with you, but I can play IQ wars all day long genius.

[Pocky]

I'm looking for a little clarity (as Moose would say) on your two statements.

 

I don't belong to ANY religion and I base my life on SCIENCE and REASON just as much as the next person.

 

 

Please do tell me oh magnificent one, how again is it that you EXPLAIN away all of the phenomenon we discuss in this forum; and the phenomenon I made mention of in my last post.

 

In the first statement, I would have assumed that you were still searching for proof of God. I would interpret this to say that you take a very scientific and rational approach to religion which, for my interpretation, lends itself to not believing in God. Science and Reason have a hard time proving God exits.

 

In the second statement, it sounds like you're saying that the concept of God is the only explanation for the phenomenon found in the world.

 

These two statements appear to contradict each other.

 

----

 

I follow the Theravada form of Buddhism. The concept of God isn't debated often; for us it makes no difference. It is neither something that can be proved nor disproved and does not have any impact on our path for enlightenment. However, I am fascinated with topic and have been studying religion since I was thirteen years old and am now working on a BA in Religion and Sociocultural Anthropology. As I study more and learn more, the less religious I become. I have a hard time understanding the claim that one can approach the concept of a God within the realm of science. I honestly think that the concept of God is a feeling and not a tangible fact that can or will ever be found. As I stated earlier, I find that it's our inability to accept how insignificant we are that we have created the concept of God in order to elevate our existence in the world.

[loveregardless]

I'm confused Pocky...what exactly do you want to know?

 

I am not searching for any proof, because that is a futile "search" to be on. I don't need or want "proof" of anything, I want to find the most "truth" and develope the best possible understanding of the situation that we humans are in as I can, but I am in no way searching for some sort of "answer". Just searching in the respect that I am always learning. I rely on science and reason as far as they will take me, but that is only so far, and for the rest of the unexplainable-yes-I attribute those experiences and phenomenon to "something" greater than we can comprehend. I do not subscribe to the belief that spiritual understanding is separate from science and reason. In my opinion that is egotistical and close minded. I prefer not to allow only one "side" of my brain to function to its fullest potential. Nor to allow only my physical senses and thought patterns to be most developed. In my opinion, a person cannot call themselves truly intelligent if they cannot comprehend the abstract as well as the concrete.

 

And I was not saying that the concept of God is the only explanation for these phenomenon, I was asking for faux to use science and reason to explain/define them all to/for me.

 

I am fascinated with topic and have been studying religion since I was thirteen years old and am now working on a BA in Religion and Sociocultural Anthropology.

I have a hard time understanding the claim that one can approach the concept of a God within the realm of science.

 

I have also been fascinated with this topic and have been studying religion, philosophy, and spirituality since I was very young. The only difference is I am not pursuing a professional degree in this field, at this time. I prefer to do my own research, reading, and in essence, teach myself the things that interest me most. This is only because of having been bored to death and starved for knowledge throughout the entirety of my public education and attempted college education. If I could deal with being treated like an ignorant child again, then I would still be taking classes at this time. However I have found the methods of schooling that I have developed for myself to be more satisfying personally at this time. BTW, I'm 19. Of course I will be attaining school in the future, when I have the money to attend the schools that I am interested in, but as for right now, the ones that are feasible are of no interest to me.

 

As to your second statement, I don't have a hard time with this concept at all. Nor did most of the philosophers of old, who understood perfectly the connection between the two. I actually found some amazing programs which suit my interests and desires perfectly recently, and offer degrees in those EXACT areas:

 

The American Institute of Holistic Theology, which offers degrees in metaphysic and paraphysic science as well as Divinity, Naturology and Healtheology.

 

As I study more and learn more, the less religious I become.

 

I completely agree. I am not religious at all. But the more and more I learn and study, the more spiritual, scientifically spiritual, I become.

 

I honestly think that the concept of God is a feeling and not a tangible fact that can or will ever be found. As I stated earlier, I find that it's our inability to accept how insignificant we are that we have created the concept of God in order to elevate our existence in the world.

 

Nor do I, as I have said in this post and in very post I've ever made, the concept of God, Divinity, Cosmic Consciousness or whatever name you want to give it, is completely incomprehensible to the physically limited beings that we are. You can't possibly attempt to understand something that is NOT physical when you are thinking strictly PHYSICAL thoughts.

 

In regards to your last statement, I must TRULY contest your conclusion. At what point did people start feeling insignificant? This stems from the scientifically imposed belief that we are all separate. What is it the point when they no longer acknowledged the reality of their existence (the reality that they are just another animal, another species like all the rest), the point when they abandoned nature and the rest of the plant, animal and spiritual kingdom and decided they were above and could control it all....did they start to feel insignificant when they started convincing themselves they could BE God?! Because the ancient peoples that I read about seem to have no problem with the concept of being united with all life, all creation, and seem to have no feelings of insignificance. In fact, they understood completely what it meant to have respect for every form of life, including their own, and for every function of nature, etc. etc. It is we who can no longer grasp at these concepts because of the thought patterns which we contribute, and our attempt to DEFINE everything, that we in turn doubt ourselves, our origin, and our existence. It is because of science and technology, combined with (in my opinion) the religious oppression facilitated by the creation of the Christian church, that we are where we are today. Had the ancient mysteries and occult teachings have NOT have been lost and repressed by the Christian church as pagan "evil" then perhaps there would have been a continuance of the ancient thought patterns and the ENTIRETY of knowledge would still be desired and sought after, as opposed to the shell of what we call science today.

 

We modern humans think we're so damn smart in comparison to these primative and misguided ancient peoples we "study". The only difference between us and them is that in a attempt to explain the phenomenon of the world, they created the building blocks for the "religions" we subsribe to today. And having no knowledge of what phenomenon ACTUALLY inspired those stories and myths to be created, we cannot possibly fathom what they were trying to explain to us. It is our attempt to overanalyze these tales that we lost the goal of their creation. It is in the shifting of our thought patterns in the past few centuries that ANY attempt at comprehending the occult has completely eluded us. If we were not so supremely selfish, childish, egotistical, physical and demanding, we would still have time left in the day to think about something other than ourselves and how to "improve" our lives. Eventually we won't have to do anything but grunt, like infants, to get exactly what we want, when we want it! Indeed, technology and science are wonderful things. Contributing to not only the dissentegration of our physical evolution, but also to the facilitation of our irresponsibility and laziness. Long live us, the most "advanced" ANIMALS on the planet! The ones who have ruined her land and her resources, the ones who have destroyed the homes of our fellow species, the ones who have abandoned the need for Mother earth and nature in any way, and who still are never satisfied.

 

BTW, I love talking with you Pocky, so don't ever think I'm being defensive or annoyed by your asking. You just always dissapear after you ask me a question.

But you are by far more learned on comparative religion than I so I cherish my chances to get into these discussions with you. How old are you BTW?

[Pocky]

I am not searching for any proof, because that is a futile "search" to be on. I don't need or want "proof" of anything, I want to find the most "truth" and develope the best possible understanding of the situation that we humans are in as I can, but I am in no way searching for some sort of "answer". Just searching in the respect that I am always learning. I rely on science and reason as far as they will take me, but that is only so far, and for the rest of the unexplainable-yes-I attribute those experiences and phenomenon to "something" greater than we can comprehend.

 

Since the discussion has commented on an explanation for the existence of God, when I read your statement to faux I assumed your request was for a correlation between phenomena and God. It appears I assumed wrong. It was basically an assumption on my part because generally when someone asks for a explanation for phenomena in a religious context they are usually inferring the existence of God. Wasn't sure if that's what you were saying or not and if it was it confused me because you had previously stated you approached religion in a very scientific and rational manner.

 

I do not subscribe to the belief that spiritual understanding is separate from science and reason. In my opinion that is egotistical and close minded. I prefer not to allow only one "side" of my brain to function to its fullest potential. Nor to allow only my physical senses and thought patterns to be most developed. In my opinion, a person cannot call themselves truly intelligent if they cannot comprehend the abstract as well as the concrete.

 

I agree with you that spirituality can be found in science and reason. However, as a side note since we're talking about religion, very few religions are compatible with science. (Religion vs. Spirituality). Not necessarily in this case as I know you and I are agreeing, but religion and spirituality are often used interchangeably and in my opinion are two different things.

 

And I was not saying that the concept of God is the only explanation for these phenomenon, I was asking for faux to use science and reason to explain/define them all to/for me.

 

What type of phenomenon?

 

 

At what point did people start feeling insignificant?

 

My point is that we are unwilling to fully grasp the reality of being insignificant. In that unwillingness we have created different belief systems that elevate us above other species. We have created a system that supports our superiority in the world and with that superiority it entitles us to a more positive future(existence). To see ourselves as insignificant would disrupt the importance of our own survival. We are important because we are special and we are special because of a divine spirit. In my opinion, this is found more in western religions, although not exclusively.

 

Because the ancient peoples that I read about seem to have no problem with the concept of being united with all life, all creation, and seem to have no feelings of insignificance. In fact, they understood completely what it meant to have respect for every form of life, including their own, and for every function of nature, etc. etc.

 

When you unite you cause insignificance. My point is that when you take our species and align it with the same importance of other species (including plants) we are no longer superior. When you take merely our existence and not our abilities and claim is equal to the same as a plant we are insignificant. This is what I feel our species has the hardest time accepting. It is hard for us to say that we are worth no more than a plant or a dog. To say that we have equal value to roach or a tiger is demonstrating our insignificance. We do not want to accept that so we create a divine spirit that excels us and makes us superior.

 

BTW, I love talking with you Pocky, so don't ever think I'm being defensive or annoyed by your asking. You just always dissapear after you ask me a question.

 

I enjoy debating. I never take anything personally. I go through stages with my posts. Sometimes I respond, sometimes I don't.

 

But you are by far more learned on comparative religion than I so I cherish my chances to get into these discussions with you. How old are you BTW?

 

30's and climbing.

[VivianLee]

This is not the proof that you are looking for but for those of us that believe the bible is the infallible book of God....this scripture makes me feel good that Jesus knew that we would be faced with these questions or doubts of our own (his ascention was so long ago)....

 

He's talking to "doubting Thomas"

 

John 20:29

 

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

If you believe in the bible as I do....that's just cool!!

[loveregardless]

Where to begin:

 

 

I agree with you that spirituality can be found in science and reason. However, as a side note since we're talking about religion, very few religions are compatible with science. (Religion vs. Spirituality). Not necessarily in this case as I know you and I are agreeing, but religion and spirituality are often used interchangeably and in my opinion are two different things.

 

In that case I agree, because most "religions" aren't compatible with anything but themselves. But I still do not think that was the intent of the originators of these faiths, I think it is something that has happened over time as a result of all of the qualities we possess in regards to feeling insignificant, in comparison to other kingdoms AND other humans. We somehow feel we must assert our dominance not only over every other life form, but also over each other.

 

Spirituality and Religion are two very different things. One is real, and has existed even before we did, and one is just another one of our creations.

 

What type of phenomenon?

 

Oh any number of things that faux continuously insults and dismisses. OBE's, NDE's, the existence of the astral in any respect, any psychic phenomenon, anything in regards to "spirits" of any kind, etc. etc. Anything and everything unexplainable or PHYSICALLY incomprehensible he generally insults, even those he has no explanation himself, he just likes to make people sound inferior to him because they experience things he has no ability to understand. And it rather infuriates me because the only thing he's not doing is grabbing up these poor people, {who surely enough are already confused and frightened, feeling "different" or "abnormal" in this oppressive and feeble minded society as it is}, and burning them at the stake as the Christians he so adamantly distances himself from.

 

 

When you unite you cause insignificance. My point is that when you take our species and align it with the same importance of other species (including plants) we are no longer superior. When you take merely our existence and not our abilities and claim is equal to the same as a plant we are insignificant. This is what I feel our species has the hardest time accepting. It is hard for us to say that we are worth no more than a plant or a dog. To say that we have equal value to roach or a tiger is demonstrating our insignificance. We do not want to accept that so we create a divine spirit that excels us and makes us superior.

 

But then the problem lies in our human definitions of "insignificance" and "superiority". And I completely agree that our species TODAY cannot accept the REALITY that we are no different or superior to a rock, a tree, or an animal...and accept that this realization does not make them insignificant, only unified and in fact enlightened. The greatest joy I have ever experianced was the day I realized what an illusion I had been living in while maintaining these thinking patterns. Of course we are all the united, of course we are just a PART of a pulsing, living, conscious reality. But this does not lessen our importance, it should in fact increase our feelings of self worth and pride in that we are a PART of something that magnifiscent, something that awesome, something that TIMELESS and UNENDING, that we are a part of all EXISTANCE. Our species in the past, did not have such difficulty with a concept such as this, and in fact understood this to be absolutely true, unlike we do today. Therefore it was not the realization of our insignificance which led to our creating divinity, for we entertained the concept of unity and divinity long before we abandoned the latter. The Divine was something we accepted along with the understanding that we were no more superior than anything else, prior to the last few centuries. It is only in these past few thousand years that (again, thanks to Christianity) that we stopped acknowledging the rest of the "life" in the universe and continued to try to comprehend the divine.

 

But no longer was it Divinity we truly wished to comprehend, it was a SUPERIOR creator who made us in HIS image, thus obviously superior. You see the point I'm getting at here. I seriously believe that Christianity is what went wrong with our thinking patterns. Because of its attempt to control and "reach" every place on earth it has drastically changed EVERYTHING. Even for those of us who realize this NOW, it is impossible to escape its effect on EVERYTHING. The only difference is that some of us are finally finding the strength to try and end its rein of terror while still maintaining our spirituality. Unfortunately, most are still trapped in its facade of propaganda, brainwashing and control while the few who dare to challenge it often loose faith altogether and end up like Mr. Fake. How ironic, going from one un-reality to another...at least he's realistic in his choice of names.

[Pocky]

We somehow feel we must assert our dominance not only over every other life form, but also over each other.

 

I agree.

 

Spirituality and Religion are two very different things. One is real, and has existed even before we did, and one is just another one of our creations.

 

I agree.

 

 

Oh any number of things that faux continuously insults and dismisses. OBE's, NDE's, the existence of the astral in any respect, any psychic phenomenon, anything in regards to "spirits" of any kind, etc. etc. Anything and everything unexplainable or PHYSICALLY incomprehensible he generally insults, even those he has no explanation himself, he just likes to make people sound inferior to him because they experience things he has no ability to understand.

 

I was more versed in parapsychology when I was younger. I haven't done much research on it in the last five years or so. As far as the examples you listed - Our lack of knowledge regarding our brain inhibits us from excluding the possibility that these experiences are nothing more than brain activity that can't be interpreted or recreated for the benefit of further research. I don't feel that I have the knowledge to give any explanation for their existence, however I tend to lean towards a more scientific approach than making the assumption that these experiences support the claim of a divine spirit (God).

 

 

 

But then the problem lies in our human definitions of "insignificance" and "superiority". And I completely agree that our species TODAY cannot accept the REALITY that we are no different or superior to a rock, a tree, or an animal...and accept that this realization does not make them insignificant, only unified and in fact enlightened. The greatest joy I have ever experianced was the day I realized what an illusion I had been living in while maintaining these thinking patterns. Of course we are all the united, of course we are just a PART of a pulsing, living, conscious reality. But this does not lessen our importance, it should in fact increase our feelings of self worth and pride in that we are a PART of something that magnifiscent, something that awesome, something that TIMELESS and UNENDING, that we are a part of all EXISTANCE. Our species in the past, did not have such difficulty with a concept such as this, and in fact understood this to be absolutely true, unlike we do today. Therefore it was not the realization of our insignificance which led to our creating divinity, for we entertained the concept of unity and divinity long before we abandoned the latter. The Divine was something we accepted along with the understanding that we were no more superior than anything else, prior to the last few centuries. It is only in these past few thousand years that (again, thanks to Christianity) that we stopped acknowledging the rest of the "life" in the universe and continued to try to comprehend the divine.

 

Well another thing you have to consider is that while you think our unity should make us stronger it may also lend itself to the concept of mortality. As it stands now, we are given immortality because of religion. Again, the western opinion of death is much different from the eastern opinion of death and our culture has a hard time accepting that for all our effort we may very well cease to exist after we die. Western views put a lot of emphasis on "I" and therefore tend to experience some difficulty when faced with the realization that there is no "I", there is no immortality, there is no permanent definition of "I". When there is no "I", we see that we are insignificant.

[loveregardless]

Here's my take on the phenomenons in question. I know far too many people, who see dead people, talk to dead people, have OBE's, have had NDE's and have read to many indisputable accounts of people with unexplainable abilities such as these, to think that science could EVER explain them. I am also someone who has, what I would consider to be, a rather extra sensory ability or two. I don't necessarily think that these experiences support the existence of God, only that they support the existence of the unexplainable and incomprehensible. They support the existence, of an existence, both pre and post "death". And they support the REALITY of a physical existence and a non physical existence. Being that God, Divinity, Cosmic Consciousness, et al. falls into that category, I merely accept it as such, and attempt to "understand" the best that I possibly can. "Something" is all that I claim exists, nothing more, nothing less, than "something".

 

Well another thing you have to consider is that while you think our unity should make us stronger it may also lend itself to the concept of mortality. As it stands now, we are given immortality because of religion. Again, the western opinion of death is much different from the eastern opinion of death and our culture has a hard time accepting that for all our effort we may very well cease to exist after we die. Western views put a lot of emphasis on "I" and therefore tend to experience some difficulty when faced with the realization that there is no "I", there is no immortality, there is no permanent definition of "I". When there is no "I", we see that we are insignificant.

 

But again, I must contest your arrival at the conclusion that these understandings make us "insignificant". That is only the conclusion that lack-minded, physically restricted, self conscious, insecure, close minded, fearful, selfish humans with superiority complexes arrive at. I feel that there is far more significance in TRUTH and REALITY than in leading a false life of illusion, defined by fear, judgment and cynicism, where we get to "pretend" we're something that we're not. I am perfectly content in my significance, in knowing that EVERYTHING is as significant as I am. As I have said before in other posts, I 100% believe that our "life" or physical existence is merely a temporary incarnation to serve a specific purpose and to contribute to the universe in some way, however most of us are limited by our physical thought patterns and lack-minded mentalities, to experiencing only the physical while we are "here". And I believe whole heartedly in "life" of our "true selves" or soul both pre and post birth. I don't need to know why I'm here to know that I am here. I don't need to know who made me to know that I am. I don't need to what I am to know what I am not. And I don't need to "define" or "control" everything in the world to make myself feel better about my current physical "self's" impermanence. That's the issue I think is most daunting for most people, it is not that they feel too insignificant, but too impermanent. Therefore they lead they're whole lives blind and terrified, too scared to open their eyes, too scared of what they might see. Blaming everyone and everything for their fear and subsequent shortcomings. As far as "death" goes, I refuse to live my life in fear of something that is inevitable, and as I was told by my comparative religion professor, something that is far less traumatic to our "soul" than "birth".

[Pocky]

But again, I must contest your arrival at the conclusion that these understandings make us "insignificant".

 

In your thought process you do not see these examples as forming a basis of insignificance for our species. I'm not implying that you should. I'm not trying to make you see that we are insignificant - what I am doing is pointing out that when one ventures into this type of thought that the majority defines this theory as stating we insignificance.

 

 

Let me give an example that may make my point more clearly.

 

I believe I am insignificant. I believe that there is no "I", but that I am a part of one central energy. I am a single spoke on a wheel. I am insignificant.

 

It takes each spoke on the wheel to make the wheel turn. No wheel can turn with one spoke. I am significant. I affect the balance of everything else.

[loveregardless]

yes I understand what you are saying now, I just thought you were trying to say that we ARE insignificant. I understand now, and I agree, that is the conclusion that the majority arrives at and the motivation behind the our subsequent behaviors. But you are also right in that it is hard for me to comprehend the thought patterns of most of our species, and how it is that they can think this way, being that my thought patterns are drastically different from theirs. Your wheel and spoke example is a brilliantly simplistic way to VISUALIZE the difference I have been trying to explain. Agreed.

[chicklover]

I think when we talk about god, we should realize that sometimes we don't go further than words. Personally , I find these points important:

 

1. If God (with its minimum definition which is offered by philosophy) exists, there are strong arguments that we can't sense him. It is very simple to understand. What you sense it , you can analyse it and then bring it to pieces and then you try to control it or shape it or exploit it. God can't be under our control. If we talk about some supreme being, in my view, there is no way to believe in his existance unless we say he is infinity in every aspect we can imagine ( and other aspects that we can't imagine). Now, such a being can't be probed by our senses. Every thing we feel is limited, don't you agree with me?

 

 

2. When we understand we can't rely on our sense to show us God, and keeping in mind that every image that we create from him in our mind is a kind of limitation to identity of god ( per definition of course), we can deperately ask: is there any way at all to figure it out if he exists or who is he or not? I think it is the question of this thread.

 

3. We can't say god doesn't exist. The most we can say is we don't know.

 

4. Make distinction between god and religion. The question : god exists of not is more basic and fundamental than religion. I think.

 

5. There are hundreds and hundreds of reasons that indicate there is more to this world than material. I think one should be strongly biased if he/she believe everything is explainable just by physics.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

The conclusion is we are very small little creatures with limited abilities who see a lot of things which he can't explain with his small brain that he has.

When we can't even have ability to imagine god, it is very good gesture to be humble and say: WE DON'T KNOW if God exists of not.

and if you REALLY ( and again REALLY) want to know if god exist or not, there is no way better than asking god himself to show himself to you. If he exists he hears you.

 

Sounds religious, I am not religious. I tried to be logicall if it worked

 

P.S. It doesn't mean I don't believe in god. I have my own reasons for a supreme being.

[loveregardless]

100% agreed.

[Pearl Black]

Or did you see pictures that have been "staged"? What do you believe happened?

 

Are we living or is this your imagination? Maybe we're not living at all. You have NO PROOF of anything. We're living in the Matrix. Life is what you believe. God and Jesus is what we believe. I'd rather believe and find out I was wrong, than not believe and find out I was wrong.