The Proof God Exists (sort of).

[faux]

This is like arguing over which color, red or purple, is better. It is not a point worth arguing.

[Aonz]

If I'm understandong this correctly, your saying because we can't prove God doesn't exist He therefore must exist??

 

The same could be said about ghosts or aliens.

 

 

Originally posted by moimeme

I've always responded to people who ask me to prove that God exists that they should prove to me that love exists. Most don't seem to get the analogy but it's valid for exactly that reason. Both God and love are unknowable except by experience and unprovable by logic.

 

How do i know love exists? I know becasue I can feel it. I don't feel God.

 

IMO there are far too many flaws in humans for them to have created by some kind of super being. Humans made up this idea of God because in their ignorance and arrogance, they can not understand how nature could have created all of this by itself.

 

 

I like this quote:

 

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush Sr. (August 27, 1987)

[moimeme]

I don't feel God

 

I do. How do you know what you're feeling is 'love'? You cannot prove anything you feel is actually felt. We only have your word.

[moimeme]

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush Sr. (August 27, 1987)

 

Gee. Isn't that a lot like saying infidels should not be allowed to exist? I smell gas chambers.

[Nosmas]

]"I don't know that Marines should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - John Kerry Sr. (August 27, 1967).

WOW, you are obsessed.

 

I though for once you could manage a non-partizan posting!

[faux]

Seeing as there is no proof that God exists, the argument "God does not exist" is a VERY sound argument.

 

If I tell you that an Eskimo Hippy man with pink hair lives on an invisible planet three miles from Pluto, you would think I was nuts unless I had absolute proof.

 

No proof = No argument.

[moimeme]

Seeing as there is no proof that God exists, the argument "God does not exist" is a VERY sound argument.

 

There is no proof that love exists either.

[Moose]

Seeing as there is no proof that God exists, the argument "God does not exist" is a VERY sound argument.

 

Yes, a sound arguement.....to those who don't take a good look around.....scientists and archeoligists, paleontologists, yada, yada.....can't explain with good hard evidence, on paper or in binary data how we, "EVOLVED", to what......who we are now. They can get as close as to say that we supposively came from a, "micro-organism", from space......mixed in with the elements of Earth......then that micro-organism over time evolved into upright walking, thinking, emotional beings.

 

There is still one question remaining in that theory.....where did that micro-organism come from? Being a Christian, I can take the next answer to the next level when these scientists say...."It's always been there".....I would come back with...."It couldn't of always been there, unless someone or something put it there....." The scientists would come back and say, "Well then it was something that came from somewhere else>>>>"......I would come back with...."Where did those, "somethings", and somewhere come from?..........."

 

Geez...it could go on forever.......

 

To me, God does exists....nothing or noone could create such a perfect balance of nature to cause you and me to think, rationalize, laugh, pro-create, destroy, or re-build. It's blind faith....very blind....unless you actually have had the priveleage to FEEL God!! And I have......so has others....I'm reminded of the Roman Centerion:

 

Mathew 8:5-8;

 

And when Jesus entered into Capernaum there came to Him a centurion, beseeching Him, And saying Lord, my servant lieth home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

 

Every time I read this passage....it reminds me that even though that centurion was the enemy.....and a sinner....and nowhere close to being the perfect Christian.....he still knew, and had faith that Jesus only had to think it and his servant would be healed.

 

Faux.....I don't have to have proof. "Blessed are they that live by faith." Even the most evil creature who've done the unthinkable....comes to understand the grace of God...(which is free by the way)....will have everlasting life.

 

If you can honestly look around and say that God doesn't exsist...and everything that you are and came from came from somewhere or someone else....ask yourself this, "Where did this someone or something come from".......

[Aonz]

Originally posted by Moose

Yes, a sound arguement.....to those who don't take a good look around.....scientists and archeoligists, paleontologists, yada, yada.....can't explain with good hard evidence, on paper or in binary data how we, "EVOLVED", to what......who we are now. They can get as close as to say that we supposively came from a, "micro-organism", from space......mixed in with the elements of Earth......then that micro-organism over time evolved into upright walking, thinking, emotional beings.

 

Ancient Greeks thought lightning came from the god Zeus, who hurled thunderbolts at sinful mortals from Mount Olympus. Now we know lightning is just a buildup of positive and negative charges within a thunderstorm, God or Gods had nothing to do with it.

 

Just because we can't explain how something came to be doesn't mean it was created by a super being. It simply means we don't know yet. Time, as always, will tell.

 

Humans are like a child in a great library where all the books are written in a foreign language. The answers to all our questions are there but we havn't learnt to read them all yet.

 

 

There is still one question remaining in that theory.....where did that micro-organism come from? Being a Christian, I can take the next answer to the next level when these scientists say...."It's always been there".....I would come back with...."It couldn't of always been there, unless someone or something put it there....." The scientists would come back and say, "Well then it was something that came from somewhere else>>>>"......I would come back with...."Where did those, "somethings", and somewhere come from?..........."

 

Where did God come from? He can't have always existed? He "couldn't of always been there, unless someone or something put it there....."

 

 

To me, God does exists....nothing or noone could create such a perfect balance of nature to cause you and me to think, rationalize, laugh, pro-create, destroy, or re-build. It's blind faith....very blind....unless you actually have had the priveleage to FEEL God!! And I have......so has others....

 

How do you know what you feel is God? might just be a chemical reaction in your brain.

[dyermaker]

I think that God transcends reality, whether that's part of his plan, or whether he's just a construction of human behavior--there's reality, and then there's God.

 

It's totally not important to me whether or not God is "real" like penguins are real or like natural selection is real (!).

 

I know that the effects of God, real or imagined, are enough to make me believe, and the community of believers that I belong to give my life a fulfillment I wouldn't experience elsewhere.

 

I assume that, like love, God is a human experience that you have to be there for.

[PatientOne]

Originally posted by Aonz

 

 

Where did God come from? He can't have always existed? He "couldn't of always been there, unless someone or something put it there....."

 

 

Every time I see this qestion, I can't help but think of the line from Time Bandits:

 

"No one created me! I am Evil. Evil existed long before good. I made myself. I cannot be unmade. *I* am all powerful!"- Evil Genius

[Moose]

Originally posted by dyermaker

I think that God transcends reality, whether that's part of his plan, or whether he's just a construction of human behavior--there's reality, and then there's God.

 

It's totally not important to me whether or not God is "real" like penguins are real or like natural selection is real (!).

 

I know that the effects of God, real or imagined, are enough to make me believe, and the community of believers that I belong to give my life a fulfillment I wouldn't experience elsewhere.

 

I assume that, like love, God is a human experience that you have to be there for.

 

Very well put Dyer! That's exactley how I feel.

[Pocky]

The inability to grasp how insignificant we are causes one to tightly clutch onto the concept of a supreme being. If we were created by something "special" then we too must be something special. We are so frightened of mortality that we are willing to accept any belief that demonstrates our superiority in the world.

 

One day it will no longer be religion - it will be mythology.

[Aonz]

Originally posted by PatientOne

Every time I see this qestion, I can't help but think of the line from Time Bandits:

 

"No one created me! I am Evil. Evil existed long before good. I made myself. I cannot be unmade. *I* am all powerful!"- Evil Genius

 

In our universe we have cause and effect, in that order. Everything we know happens in that way and even our minds work that way. When we try to contemplate the idea of something always existing we simply can not manage to understand it, we are seeking a 'cause' for the 'effect' of the universe existing.

 

I think one of the reasons that many people turn to religion is the human mind cannot easily comprehend the vast scales of time and space in the universe. To us, two-thousand years is a huge amount of time.

 

The Bible tells us the Earth is only 6,500 years old (source) but that doesn't explain how the top 1,500 feet of Mount Everest could be comprised of limestone. This type of rock is only formed by the deposition and consolidation of the skeletons of marine invertebrates. Because these creatures are minuscule, it would take millions of years to form these limestone layers. You might think six thousand years is a long time, but can you even begin to comprehend the lifespan of Everest.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

Very well put Dyer! That's exactley how I feel.

I'm glad to hear it, I've never written it down anywhere, and was hoping people could read it and agree.

 

Originally posted by Aonz

The Bible tells us the Earth is only 6,500 years old (source)

Your source isn't the Bible, but a mathemetician. Plenty of people don't look toward the Bible for mathematics, science, or even history--and that in no way debases the value of the stories therein.

 

The ideas of evolution, planetary motion, and (I guess) geology would have been impossible for people 3200 years ago to understand. Even if God came down as a big bright light and told some guy to write down all the science behind the creation of the earth and its species, the guy wouldn't have the words to write it down, and people wouldn't believe him because he has no idea the knowledge behind God's plan.

 

Therefore, we're given stories. It's up to us to apply them to current knowledge, and although we can easily see the scientific flaws in the Old Testament, there's no way that the Bible says the Earth was created 6,500 years ago.

[DutyPaid]

i've never believed that those who claim that god exists and those who claim he doesn't are equal. sure, both groups have every right to their opinion, but i'm arguing that some opinions are more equal than others.

 

then you're not talking about opinions at all

 

the 'no god squad' believe that the lack of evidence for the existence of god is proof that there is no god but they accept, presumably, the fact that no empirical evidence exists proving that god doesn't exist.

 

that is not how "empirical evidence" works

 

surely those who claim there is no god have simply not discovered him YET

 

oh dear

 

you present circular arguments that are never ending

 

if you believe, fine, that is called faith

 

if you have faith then you have no need to prove to anyone that your opinion is more equal than theirs - that is almost offensive - your desire to prove Gods existence undermines your own faith because isn't the premise of religious faith the belief without proof?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by DutyPaid

isn't the premise of religious faith the belief without proof?

No, it's more the proof without the semasiology of "proving it".

[faux]

I do not understand why some individuals still insist on believing in a god. I thought the human race was supposed to be evolving?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by faux

I do not understand why some individuals still insist on believing in a god. I thought the human race was supposed to be evolving?

An appeal to nature!

 

Evolution is faciliated through natural selection. Explain how it's a successful trait not to believe in God.

 

Occaistionally, people with ego complexes don't realize that they're totally judging people, because they assume that people think their assessments are flawless. Faux, you do realize that spirituality, whether you recognize it or not, plays a huge part in some people's lives? I don't see why it's neccesary to antagonize them simply so that you can look more 'evolved'.

[loveregardless]

of Faux, I do love when you decide to join these discussions. In essence, your comment was accurate, human beings are in fact evolving. But what is so funny, is that in your admittance to being supremely LIMITED by your physical perceptions you have all but made our point for US. The very acceptance of reality beyond physical experience IS our evolution. Our ability to abstractly interpret different phenomenon and occurances that science and physyicality cannot even attempt to explain away, is the EVIDENCE of our evolution. When human beings stopped living, as animals plants and the rest of the spirit kingdom do, simultaneously with the REALITY of our world beyond what we can experience with our limited 5 senses, is when we started on the path to de-evolution. It is only recently that humans are making a new attempt at evolution, TRUE evolution, by accepting and examine these REALITIES as the circumstances in the past had not allowed. This "scientific" process of explaining away the worlds mysteries is nothing more than a fad which will pass in time as all things have. Human beings were not filled with such doubts of this REALITY at one time, every ancient religion and culture I can think of makes reference to the spirit world, the mystical the revered LIFE of all plants, animals and the earth; they all held the same RESPECT for life that we know longer understand. They attributed the processes of life to GODS because they understood the magnifescence of what they were experiencing. Any person who has had any experience or knows anyone who has had any experience, as the ones you so VICIOUSLY attack day after day, knows that your cynicism is hurting no one but yourself. So thank you my dear for only PROVING that we are EVOLVING in comparison to you. If you would like to contest anything I just said with any great ferver I suggest you check out a serious collection of philosophical and esoteric teachings before you rejoin the group. And as a friend once told me, perhaps take at least a sophomore level anthropology class.

 

And just for the record, my definition of "God" is:

possible: being, collective consciousness, divine order, creator, Divinity, et al.

[Aonz]

Originally posted by faux

I thought the human race was supposed to be evolving?

 

Are we?

 

Havn't humans already reached a point where we are able to alter our environment to suit ourselves, rather than altering ourselves to suit our environment? and as such any alteration from our current configuration would be a dissadvantage?

[faux]

Originally posted by Aonz

Are we?

 

Havn't humans already reached a point where we are able to alter our environment to suit ourselves, rather than altering ourselves to suit our environment? and as such any alteration from our current configuration would be a dissadvantage?

 

It confuses me as to why some individuals would hold on to outdated, unnecessary ideals which stem from a belief in a god. I tend to notice that belief in a god seems to inhibit the reaching of ones full potential, and prevents mankind from advancing medically and scientifically.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by loveregardless

In essence, [Faux's] comment was accurate, human beings are in fact evolving.

Actually, it couldn't be more inaccurate. In order for evolution to take place, there would have to be reproduction [only] of the fittest. Now, more often than not, our fittest use birth control.

Originally posted by faux

It confuses me as to why some individuals would hold on to outdated, unnecessary ideals which stem from a belief in a god.

I think you'd have trouble proving that the ideals stem from a belief in God--it's the fallacy of division again.

I tend to notice that belief in a god seems to inhibit the reaching of ones full potential, and prevents mankind from advancing medically and scientifically.

Some of the most astounding medical and scientific advances have come from theists.

[faux]

Originally posted by dyermaker

Actually, it couldn't be more inaccurate. In order for evolution to take place, there would have to be reproduction [only] of the fittest. Now, more often than not, our fittest use birth control.

 

I am not speaking of the pure Darwinian evolution.

 

I think you'd have trouble proving that the ideals stem from a belief in God--it's the fallacy of division again.

 

I have no trouble proving this at all. Your religious beliefs would, no doubt, prevent you from even taking my arguments into consideration.

 

Some of the most astounding medical and scientific advances have come from theists.

 

Most of the medical and scientific advances you speak of are probably looked down upon by theists, so this goes against religion. Not everyone who is religious follows blindly, but those persons cannot be true practitioners of their religion.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by faux

I am not speaking of the pure Darwinian evolution.

I figured as much.

 

It's an egotistical strategy of lording one's intelligence and enlightenment over another, and passing it off as evolution. Your thesis, then, is this: I'm so evolved I can see God is for the (intellectually) cro-magnon man.

 

You walk erect among a sea of intellectually-challenged amoeba. Congrats?

I have no trouble proving this at all. Your religious beliefs would, no doubt, prevent you from even taking my arguments into consideration.

You're so frickin smart you don't even need to argue your point, and I'm so stupid I probably wouldn't understand it if you did, is that right?

Most of the medical and scientific advances you speak of are probably looked down upon by theists, so this goes against religion.

Speculation. I think you ought to let the theists speak for themselves.

Not everyone who is religious follows blindly, but those persons cannot be true practitioners of their religion.

I don't think you're qualified to say that. St. Thomas Acquinas didn't follow his religion blindly, and he was canonized. I also think you're ignoring a huge historical gap between literacy and poverty, and blaming that lack of intellectual advancement on the church.