Are they aware of emotional affairs?

[Spotme]

My original post is about 3 pages back saying I had heard of EAs prior to H's affair, but I wanted to add, seeing the way some of the posts are trending, that it was not because I spent my time reading self-help or relationship stuff (or women's magazines). I never specifically read that type of stuff at all, I'm just a general consumer of information and learned about it in the regular course of reading. I don't think it's that rarified a concept - I wasn't perusing psychology journals. I don't think it would be that unusual for anyone else in the general public to stumble across it.

[Lillyfree]

ahh, Lilly, I for one enjoy your posts.. Snarky, or not.

 

sometimes i use snarkiness for emphasis. sometimes it's because it's getting closer to the full moon. it's never personal though...

 

thank you wiser. i enjoy your posts too

[waterwoman]

I didn't know what an EA was before H had one. In fact I was involved in an EA many years ago but just thought of it as flirting that ended up getting too intense (and yes I beleived he was my soul mate, and I was infatuated) There was no sex and I had no intention of leaving H so I didn't think of it as an affair. I ended it for good when he told he me had left his gf and wanted me to get a divorce. Way too intense and he didn't see me for dust! But all the time it was going on, and for the 6m or so it took me to get him out of my head, my H was being short-changed.

 

When I found out about H I recognised what he was doing and what he was going through. And it hurt. Karma eh? Difference being they had had some limited sexual contact and they had confessed love for each other - and most significantly H hasn't backed off when it got too close. Reading on here and other forums let me know that what we both got involved in were emotional affairs - makes the whole thing more serious and sordid giving it that name.

[cocorico]

I think it's just another pop-psych term invented to sell airport books and advertising space on Oprahfied TV shows. I don't think there is a discrete and recognisable thing that exists in an independently verifiable form. One person's "EA" is another person's friendship, it all depends on how jealous the partner is and how much freedom they're willing to allow their partner before they start to feel threatened.

 

It's impossible to have an A on your own, right? So if an A requires two people, how come so many "EAs" are labelled as such by only one party (or, more commonly, by their threatened partner) while the other party is left going, "huh?"

[Owl]

I think it's just another pop-psych term invented to sell airport books and advertising space on Oprahfied TV shows. I don't think there is a discrete and recognisable thing that exists in an independently verifiable form. One person's "EA" is another person's friendship, it all depends on how jealous the partner is and how much freedom they're willing to allow their partner before they start to feel threatened.

 

It's impossible to have an A on your own, right? So if an A requires two people, how come so many "EAs" are labelled as such by only one party (or, more commonly, by their threatened partner) while the other party is left going, "huh?"

 

I disagree.

 

You don't HIDE friendships from your spouse.

 

There's a difference in DEPTH that's critical to note.

 

It's one thing to have a close friend...it's another thing to feel so strongly for someone that you'd consider leaving your spouse for them.

 

VERY different critters, clearly.

 

And it's not tied to how much freedom a partner is "allowed"

 

It's about that partner knowing the difference between friendship and love...

 

...which I guess is still confusing for some.

[MissBee]

Bolded certain areas for emphasis.

 

First, what if your spouse is bi and hasn't told you? What if they are actually gay? Then is a close friendship with a man acceptable?

Also I know of many relationships that have gone south because of time spent with his buddy/buddies instead of quality time with his partner.

 

And the second is my point exactly. You knew it when it happened. You weren't looking for it before because you didn't think to do so.

 

If for all intents and purposes you don't know your spouse to be gay or bi you will not view their same-sex friendships in the same way you would opposite sex ones. If you know your spouse to be straight, then naturally, you're not going to think anything untoward about their close male friendship (unless it becomes bizarre and starts to take away from your relationship and seem to be just very different from normal friendships).

 

I think the bottom line is that marriage or any committed relationship isn't self-protecting, but the parties involved have to be the ones to set the boundaries and propel it. Emotionally investing in same sex or opposite sex friendships or work or whatever else to the detriment of your primary romantic relationship comes with warning signs.

[MissBee]

I think it's just another pop-psych term invented to sell airport books and advertising space on Oprahfied TV shows. I don't think there is a discrete and recognisable thing that exists in an independently verifiable form. One person's "EA" is another person's friendship, it all depends on how jealous the partner is and how much freedom they're willing to allow their partner before they start to feel threatened.

 

It's impossible to have an A on your own, right? So if an A requires two people, how come so many "EAs" are labelled as such by only one party (or, more commonly, by their threatened partner) while the other party is left going, "huh?"

 

Where does this happen? The bold I mean.

 

What's the recognizable difference between a platonic friendship and romance? Perhaps by answering this question first you will be able to discern the distinction between appropriate and inappropriate friendships. Although, a common trend is that those who have lax boundaries aren't able to see distinctions very clearly until they have already slipped and slid over the edge. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I met a married guy and was instantly attracted to him and how we interacted upon first meeting, I could feel that tingle and chemistry you feel when two single people meet, thus I opted out of a friendship, because I knew it would immediately be an EA and not a normal platonic friendship. The ability to know this is because I know the difference I feel towards platonic friends versus friends I'm attracted to and could easily fall for. Worst yet, if I were the married one, and met a man I was attracted to, I'd be careful about the friendship, as that's how emotional attachment and romance starts. This is not rocket science.

 

All romantic relationships include an element of friendship, all friendships don't include romantic feelings. If you're in a friendship where you're realizing how you relate to this friend is more romantic than platonic...which is very easy to notice after a while, and you or your friend are married/committed, then most people's self-awareness will alarm. I see you saying that essentially the "threatened partner" coins the term EA, but frankly, OW/MW/MM have explained in their very own stories how their friendships became inappropriate, how they realized it and how they mitigated or fed it.

 

Jealousy and so forth are real issues and each relationship has it's threshold for that. However, your post, only addresses essentially the foibles of the BS...unsurprisingly, and says absolutely nothing about how the person involved in the inappropriate friendship feels about their own behavior and that process. That cannot be ignored. Whether or not your spouse feels jealous is immaterial and IMO a more fruitful discussion lies in questioning the process and mentality of those who were in one and acknowledging that it's not always or often something another puts on them, but that they've come to realize for themselves. Is that possible to acknowledge for you? Or shall we ignore this?

 

Many EAs are conducted online and the spouses don't even realize their spouse is having one in fact, so their is nothing for them to be jealous about. Yet the spouse who logs on every night/day to talk to their friend, gets agitated when they can't, are saying flirtatious things, and haven't told their spouse about this friend KNOWS when they have crossed the line. What says you, not about the "threatened partner", but about the person engaged in an EA, who acts this way and their ability to feel when a friendship is more than platonic? Or do you not see any difference between platonic friendships and romance and don't think anybody else can either?

Edited June 14, 2013 by MissBee

[cocorico]

Where does this happen? The bold I mean.

 

What's the recognizable difference between a platonic friendship and romance? Perhaps by answering this question first you will be able to discern the distinction between appropriate and inappropriate friendships. Although, a common trend is that those who have lax boundaries aren't able to see distinctions very clearly until they have already slipped and slid over the edge. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I met a married guy and was instantly attracted to him and how we interacted upon first meeting, I could feel that tingle and chemistry you feel when two single people meet, thus I opted out of a friendship, because I knew it would immediately be an EA and not a normal platonic friendship. The ability to know this is because I know the difference I feel towards platonic friends versus friends I'm attracted to and could easily fall for. Worst yet, if I were the married one, and met a man I was attracted to, I'd be careful about the friendship, as that's how emotional attachment and romance starts. This is not rocket science.

 

All romantic relationships include an element of friendship, all friendships don't include romantic feelings. If you're in a friendship where you're realizing how you relate to this friend is more romantic than platonic...which is very easy to notice after a while, and you or your friend are married/committed, then most people's self-awareness will alarm. I see you saying that essentially the "threatened partner" coins the term EA, but frankly, OW/MW/MM have explained in their very own stories how their friendships became inappropriate, how they realized it and how they mitigated or fed it.

 

Jealousy and so forth are real issues and each relationship has it's threshold for that. However, your post, only addresses essentially the foibles of the BS...unsurprisingly, and says absolutely nothing about how the person involved in the inappropriate friendship feels about their own behavior and that process. That cannot be ignored. Whether or not your spouse feels jealous is immaterial and IMO a more fruitful discussion lies in questioning the process and mentality of those who were in one and acknowledging that it's not always or often something another puts on them, but that they've come to realize for themselves. Is that possible to acknowledge for you? Or shall we ignore this?

 

Many EAs are conducted online and the spouses don't even realize their spouse is having one in fact, so their is nothing for them to be jealous about. Yet the spouse who logs on every night/day to talk to their friend, gets agitated when they can't, are saying flirtatious things, and haven't told their spouse about this friend KNOWS when they have crossed the line. What says you, not about the "threatened partner", but about the person engaged in an EA, who acts this way and their ability to feel when a friendship is more than platonic? Or do you not see any difference between platonic friendships and romance and don't think anybody else can either?

 

My sole exposure to "EAs" consists of having been accused of having one by the W of a very close, long time friend. FTR, I have never had any romantic interest in him, although he is a very dear friend. He did develop a crush on me many years back, but as it was not reciprocated we did not let it get in the way of our friendship. So no, he did not consider our friendship to be "more than platonic" even though in many respects it was far more intimate than the R he had with his W since we shared our closest thoughts and would often speak on the phone into the wee hours.

 

I supported him during his D from his 1st W, and encouraged his tentative personal growth. We used to discuss our Rs with each other and I thus knew all about his doubts when he got to know her, and his disappointment at a recent break-up, and the fact that she was a "safe bet" and a bit of a rebound R and we both openly discussed that being with her was "settling", for him, but at the time he felt he needed the soft landing. He knew my views on that, and I cautioned him against M when she was pressurising him, because I knew that sooner or later he would be dissatisfied. So yes, she is correct that I am not a friend of the M. I am his friend, and he is my concern, not their M.

 

Anyway, she considers our friendship "inappropriate", and finds it threatening, and so I'm sure he probably has taken to hiding it from her so as not to upset her. When he told me she considered it an "EA" I was amused and confused in equal measure. That is the only exposure I have had to the concept, aside from on here. I don't watch Oprah or read pop psych books.

[Owl]

Here's the thing though, and I'm not even referencing MY situation with this... but there are lots of emotional affairs that develop right under everyone's nose.

There ISN'T necessarily any hiding of the friendship, there isn't sneaking around at least not at first.

 

The friendship deepens and develops without the need to be hidden...FOR A TIME.

 

At some point in EVERY affair...emotional or physical...there's a cusp. A point where the WS realizes that what they're about to say/type/do is something that can NEVER be allowed to get back to their (pending) BS. They know it's a line...they know that what they're about to do/say is 'over the line'...and they have the CHOICE in that instant to say/do it, or not.

 

THAT is the cusp...the point at which it crosses from frienship to affair. When you knowingly do something that you know full well that your partner would not approve of...the line is crossed, and it's not a friendship...it's an affair.

 

The moment you turn your computer screen to the side so that your H can't see what you're about to type...the moment you tell your wife that you're going for a walk when you know you're going to meet up with that other person around the corner...you've crossed that line.

[eleanorrigby]

Here's the thing though, and I'm not even referencing MY situation with this... but there are lots of emotional affairs that develop right under everyone's nose.

There ISN'T necessarily any hiding of the friendship, there isn't sneaking around at least not at first.

 

The very second some hiding needs to occur or happens, it's become an affair.

[MissBee]

My sole exposure to "EAs" consists of having been accused of having one by the W of a very close, long time friend. FTR, I have never had any romantic interest in him, although he is a very dear friend. He did develop a crush on me many years back, but as it was not reciprocated we did not let it get in the way of our friendship. So no, he did not consider our friendship to be "more than platonic" even though in many respects it was far more intimate than the R he had with his W since we shared our closest thoughts and would often speak on the phone into the wee hours.

 

I supported him during his D from his 1st W, and encouraged his tentative personal growth. We used to discuss our Rs with each other and I thus knew all about his doubts when he got to know her, and his disappointment at a recent break-up, and the fact that she was a "safe bet" and a bit of a rebound R and we both openly discussed that being with her was "settling", for him, but at the time he felt he needed the soft landing. He knew my views on that, and I cautioned him against M when she was pressurising him, because I knew that sooner or later he would be dissatisfied. So yes, she is correct that I am not a friend of the M. I am his friend, and he is my concern, not their M.

 

Anyway, she considers our friendship "inappropriate", and finds it threatening, and so I'm sure he probably has taken to hiding it from her so as not to upset her. When he told me she considered it an "EA" I was amused and confused in equal measure. That is the only exposure I have had to the concept, aside from on here. I don't watch Oprah or read pop psych books.

 

You are speaking about your own specific example of being accused of an EA when you were not romantically interested in that person. I think it's pretty clear that the cases of false accusations aren't really what this thread is about...but rather, the cases of real romantic interest. You've also still focused on the "wrongness" of the other spouse and not really managed to address situations where the spouse in the EA knows they are in one.

 

From where I'm seated, how your friend acts is very bizarre and most wives would find this inappropriate. Even your descriptionthat your relationship with him was "more intimate" than the one with his W, already describes a "friendship" that is already inappropriate, not just to the wife, but to anyone. Do you believe it is normal and appropriate for your spouse to have a friendship in which he is more intimate with his friend than you?

 

Any friendship which is superseding one's primary romantic relationship is already problematic and it seems pretty intuitive to me that a spouse would be upset about this, yet you make it seem like it's irrational and petty for a wife to be upset that her husband is conducting a friendship, in which you are not friendly to the wife, the husband has had a crush on you, and you describe your friendship with each other as "more intimate" than the marriage.

 

Your response hasn't really managed to address the idea that there is a difference between platonic friendships and friendships where attraction and romantic feelings exist and how the latter can become an EA (regardless of your own experience). Your response is still skewed towards pointing out how wrong and insecure the wife was and how you don't watch Oprah ...but fails to even address as a concept, even outside of your experience, how emotional affairs can exist, if we understand a difference exists between the intimacies of friendship and when a friendship becomes "more intimate" than the M. If you cannot see how this is problematic and how EAs exist outside of insecure spouses, but by the acknowledgement of the WS or OW/OM themselves, then we have to leave it at that as no fruitful discussion can be had, when whole other variables, experiences and possibilities are being explicitly ignored in favor of discrediting a concept and blaming one party (unsurprisingly the insecure, dunce wife trope which seems to populate many posts) for it. However, thanks for your response.

[MissBee]

The friendship deepens and develops without the need to be hidden...FOR A TIME.

 

At some point in EVERY affair...emotional or physical...there's a cusp. A point where the WS realizes that what they're about to say/type/do is something that can NEVER be allowed to get back to their (pending) BS. They know it's a line...they know that what they're about to do/say is 'over the line'...and they have the CHOICE in that instant to say/do it, or not.

 

THAT is the cusp...the point at which it crosses from frienship to affair. When you knowingly do something that you know full well that your partner would not approve of...the line is crossed, and it's not a friendship...it's an affair.

 

The moment you turn your computer screen to the side so that your H can't see what you're about to type...the moment you tell your wife that you're going for a walk when you know you're going to meet up with that other person around the corner...you've crossed that line.

 

Even outside of an affair context every person knows when they have a friend whom they start to feel more for, confide in in ways that isn't the same as their other friendships, need to talk to more than they do their other friends, may feel a little jealous/possessive over, get butterflies for etc. You know that CUSP. Initially of course, things may be normal, but if you get to a point where it becomes more....normal people feel this, and especially normal people who are married. And when you're the married one, when it gets to that point, people either cut it off (like the example of my aunt who realized wow, it's a little more than friends now) or continue with it and then start to hide it.

 

This has nothing to do with your spouse's feelings or the observation of others, but your own self-awareness. Which if you have no internal barometer for this, then you're on your own. But again, people with no boundaries or very loose ones do not see distinctions as clearly as others do and thus while skipping and hopping over the edge, they think everyone else who is seeing them do it and points it out is being uptight, until they are at the bottom of the gorge, then they say they have no clue how it happened.

[leafguy]

So, seems to be an agreement that when the "cusp" is crossed that the friendship becomes hidden then it is considered an EA.

 

As a victim of one recently, I also have to ask MissBee, Eleanor and whoever else seems to have a realistic view on it...

 

At what point is it realistic to consider something an EA? Each person has different views on what they consider the proverbial line of a friendship being inappropriate.

 

For me, I have always taken a view of that certain things are private, even in a relationship. Some people are more secure and others less secure. I keep my cell phone and email passwords private from my SO because I have always considered what I talk to my friends about my own business. I talk to my female friends about relationship advice on a female perspective which I sometimes overlook being a male. I don't tell my SO because it is strictly advice Im asking for on a platonic level, and her being prone to jealousy issues, its easier to just omit. Does it mean Im having an EA? I dont think so. If she asks who Im talking to or comes over to look at the screen out of curiousity, I wont hide it, but she doesn't need to know every detail of every conversation I have with a female friend

 

The reason I ask this is because everyone has friends they talk to every day or every other day, some times of the opposite sex. And in my specific scenario, what got me suspicious was the blatant hiding of an email to a male friend (closed out the screen or changed it every time I came into view cooking dinner one night). When she was caught hiding it and refused to answer. At that point, I knew it was something more serious. Turns out they had been flirting for months which is why she refused to talk. But thats neither here nor there.

 

My point I am trying to make is that everyone has different views on what would be considered an EA and every scenario is different. I just don't think the hiding of something is sufficient grounds to call something an EA.

 

In case anyone is wondering too, after I caught the SO hiding the emails, she was ultimately forced to show me or risk losing me. After balling for a few hours and a couple hundred emails later, that gut wrenching feeling knowing it was a full blown EA. It is a guy she works with so there is no hope of her not being in contact with him in some form. Currently on a break debating what to do in the long term. She has expressed willingness to find a new job, show me text logs and emails and Ive emailed her friend to ask for details of the two of them at work, but not sure its going to be enough now that the trust factor is gone.

Edited June 16, 2013 by leafguy

[cocorico]

You are speaking about your own specific example of being accused of an EA when you were not romantically interested in that person.

 

You asked for an example, and I provided one.

 

Where does this happen? The bold I mean.

 

 

I'm sorry my response "hasn't managed" to meet whatever standards you set for it to meet, but since my intention was to respond to what you actually asked, ie "where does this happen?" Rather than to meet some invisible assessment criteria inside your own head, I considered that it "managed" to,address what I intended it to address, ie that cases exist where someone somewhere says "that's an EA" when really all it is is a friendship, coupled with an insecure partner feeling threatened.

[cocorico]

could be because she knows the history and atitude of one of the people involved and so she doesn't trust her or him

 

Then why would she choose to marry him?

[MissBee]

You asked for an example, and I provided one.

 

 

 

I'm sorry my response "hasn't managed" to meet whatever standards you set for it to meet, but since my intention was to respond to what you actually asked, ie "where does this happen?" Rather than to meet some invisible assessment criteria inside your own head, I considered that it "managed" to,address what I intended it to address, ie that cases exist where someone somewhere says "that's an EA" when really all it is is a friendship, coupled with an insecure partner feeling threatened.

 

You said:

 

...how come so many "EAs" are labelled as such by only one party (or, more commonly, by their threatened partner) while the other party is left going, "huh?"

 

I was curious about your "so many"and "more commonly" statements, which seem to point to observable trends and wanted to know where it happens, that is, if you meant you saw this as a trend on LS or offline. I wasn't asking for an example of when you were accused of being in a false EA (although you haven't addressed my question about your own statement that the friendship was more intimate than a M, and if you find this to be appropriate or not....which is more germane, but hey). I did not think your one time personal experience of being accused of an EA when you weren't in one was supposed to be a sufficient explanation of the "so many EAs" and "more commonly" statement or a clarification of where you see this happening. I was interested in more of a generalizable trend whether on LS or offline and not just your one time this happened to me story. I assumed you had a more substantive observation of your "so many EAs" statement, my bad.

Edited June 16, 2013 by MissBee

[leafguy]

do you feel that you are hiding your calls, texts, whatever from your significant other or just not sharing them? There is a difference.

 

What if your significant other asked to see them? Would you show them or would you feel a need to hide them because their content might hurt them or somehow seem inappropriate?

 

 

 

I simply do not feel the need to share. Everyone has fights and everyone has a friend who they vent too...be it opposite sex or same sex. In my case, I have both and when I feel I need a second female perspective on things, I would tell this person.

 

Does my SO know that I am good friends and talk with this person about alot...yes. Would I have a problem showing her if she asked...no

I have a feeling that the SO might be pissed that I have talked about issues we have fought about, but everyone has a friend they vent too and/or seek advice from.

 

I will say that some topics remain off the table due to nature (sexual issues, financial issues, etc.), but if its simply a fight over a less personal issue, I see no harm in getting advice from a friend of whatever sex and not sharing it with an SO.

[leafguy]

I agree, there is a difference between privacy and secrecy and you KNOW it when you see it right? But you don't necessarily know it before it's there to see.

 

Many people might argue that you not being 100% transparent leaves doors open to crossing boundaries, but it sounds like there is a difference between what occured between your girlfriend and what transpires between you and friends.

 

Good luck!

 

There is a huge difference in what occured. As others have put it...there was that "cusp" that was crossed. I would never have asked to see her emails if not for her being stupid and trying to hide an email in plain sight. I simply would have been oblivious to it and not suspected a thing. It wouldnt have been something I would have looked for either.

 

Even if it was to one of her friends that I knew, I might have shrugged it off. But when your gut tells you something and I saw enough to question it, I couldn't ignore it.

 

And I don't believe that people need to be 100% transparent in a relationship. Everyone is entitled to privacy, and that includes a bit from your SO. If I have to be 100% transparent to someone in a relationship, I would immediately get the feeling there are trust issues.

 

And in my specific scenario, the issues are vastly different. Me venting to a female friend about a fight is one thing, even if she doesnt see or know about it. Im not hiding it just because I choose not to tell her. If she ever asked to see the convos Id have shown her. The difference in our case was the fact it was months of 75% flirty emails with him asking her for things knowing she was in a relationship that she didn't put a stop too. She simply just relished the attention and led him on by not saying no.

And given the guy at work was single, he really had nothing to lose.

 

Its for the last reason that I have pretty much decided to end things because when another guy is asking you to come to his place and spend the night, and you don't tell him no when you are "committed", it makes you question where the heart lies despite the fact nothing physical happened. I believe it only would have been a matter of time.