Now I'm doubting myself :-(

[whichwayisup]

I posted about my situation in another thread: I've been with K. for three years; about two months ago we decided to take a break; we took one for about six weeks and then met up to talk; after a week I ended the relationship. That was this past Friday.

 

I've had a good relationship with K's family and today I met up with his mom. We took a three-hour walk. She said she felt we got back together too soon and need a longer break; she said she felt we were going to need a third-party intervention to help us improve our communication and felt our difficulties were completely workable if we both wanted it enough. She said she did not agree with my feeling that counseling would not help us at this point, maybe individual counseling but not couples counseling. And she said she thinks I got too stuck on the "why hasn't he proposed to me after three years" issue and that of course he could not discuss marriage if we were having so many difficulties. I said that I wasn't expecting a proposal, but a discussion about the future that K. never initiated and resisted when I brought it up.

 

Anyway, now I'm doubting myself. Should we have taken a longer break? Was I wrong to refuse counseling? Was I wrong to do this?

 

I knew this might happen as I care about her opinion and she has and can influence me and many times that has been a good thing. But now I'm crying because I feel doubt in the rightness of my convictions, my intuition, and my decision to end the relationship.

 

What I don't understand is why she doesn't see the problem with never discussing the future after THREE YEARS. That's plenty reason in others' eyes to end a relationship right there. There are plenty of moms I've heard of who push their sons never to leave a woman hanging, to make a decision one way or other, etc.

 

I'm just venting, perhaps, feeling very alone and sad in the knowledge that it's the end, good and bad, of what once was. I just wish someone had MY back, you know? I just feel so sad.

 

His mom won't have your back though, and it is kind of unfair of you to hope she would. It puts her in position where she may feel pressured or having to pick sides.

 

You have friends who can have your back and be there for you for support.

 

You two are friends and if you want to keep that friendship, then it's time to rebuild it without talking about him and focus more on you and her. You do need to back off and allow yourself to grieve the loss, deal with changes and then try to have a new type of friendship with her - As friends, not future mother in law/daughter in law.

 

You did the right thing by ending it. Your gut was speaking to you for so long and finally you listened to it.

[whichwayisup]

"I want you to know that no matter what happens between you and K, it won't affect what I feel about you personally or professionally." Ha.

 

I'm sure at the time she said that, she meant it sincerely, but nobody can predict the future and if a break up happens, what reactions will be later on. She is his mom and no matter what, she is going to side with him and put him first over you. Sorry.

[tbf]

I think I'm just experiencing the flood of consequences of finally making a decision for now about the relationship with K. It's so hard to say goodbye, even to a relationship that was so troubled.

This is understandable. They weren't just your family, they were also your social life.

 

You think so even if she initiates a discussion about K? Like maybe now I shouldn't go along with it and just gently say, "Unless there are more things that you feel need to be said, or something you want me to consider, I don't think we need to talk about this. Let's talk about other things for now"?

I'd say to her "It's over and if you don't mind, I don't want to talk about it anymore. Btw, how's [insert the little girls] doing with [insert side topic]".

 

This way, you can have commonalities and don't completely sever your prior familial and friend relationship. You're molding a new type of relationship with her.

 

At the end of our walk yesterday, she said to call her in a couple of weeks and we'd take a walk, and she'd tell me if K's sister and the little girls came to town. My thought now is to not call her, at least not for a month or two. But if she calls me, I'll see her even if it's not 100% comfortable for me, just to see where things lead, and then deal with it from there. If she tells me the little girls are in town, and invites me to an event, I don't think I'd want to refuse to see the girls. But I don't think I'd want to be in the middle of some family event, either...and I'm not sure she'd invite me to one, now, just due to the changed situation. I agree that some time of no contact would be a good thing. If it's meant to be, something will eventually shake out, right? It's seems the only way to look at it.

Handle it the way you need to handle it. Just make sure that if you see her, assert the boundary that discussion about K and yourself is off limits.

 

Not sure if you're aware but after the infidelity by the ex and divorce in my first marriage, his mother and I maintained contact. We still maintain contact 6 years after the divorce although it's limited to chatting on the phone. So it is possible, as long as you build a different bridge between you.

[Zapbasket]

His mom won't have your back though, and it is kind of unfair of you to hope she would. It puts her in position where she may feel pressured or having to pick sides.

 

You are right. I'm just sad, and grasping at straws intermittently with facing the hard reality.

 

You have friends who can have your back and be there for you for support.

 

Truth is, though, I really don't. Friends who don't live out here, yes, I have those. And my mom. And they are all supportive.

 

I have had a very difficult time making more than superficial friendships out here, owing in part to the seasonal nature of work and people only being here for one season. I know now I am well-liked here in many circles...but none of that crosses over into more. I spend a great deal of time on weekends alone--hiking, biking, paddleboarding, and this summer possibly even camping, alone.

 

So the loss of this familial-like bond with K's family, and K himself, hits with even more intensity than if I had a full social life. But I know what you're getting at: I have other places to go for support, including my own self.

 

You two are friends and if you want to keep that friendship, then it's time to rebuild it without talking about him and focus more on you and her. You do need to back off and allow yourself to grieve the loss, deal with changes and then try to have a new type of friendship with her - As friends, not future mother in law/daughter in law.

 

Yes. I do see us in some kind of contact, especially if I stay in this town longer, for a long time to come. I know it would be much less than we have been in the past. When I told her I see her, and them, as "my Colorado family" she said she sees no reason why that should change...but of course I know it will. I see sending her holiday cards and writing to say hi now and then, years from now--she's such a mother hen, and works with young people; a lot of people do that with her.

 

You did the right thing by ending it. Your gut was speaking to you for so long and finally you listened to it.

 

You know, this is my first time ending a relationship, and I am surprised how difficult it is in the aftermath on the other side of the fence from a break-up. Now all the good things about K are rising up and pulling at my heart, and the bad things seem like some distant, ephemeral thing, like dandelion thistle in the breeze, so that I'm finding myself asking, "Was it real?" People have so many facets and sides, and I find myself wondering if I really saw things the right way. Maybe, an icy fear makes me think, there's a woman who wouldn't trigger the chip on his shoulder as much as I apparently did. That hurts, that thought, and it makes me feel like maybe I was missing something.

 

I mean, is your gut ALWAYS right? SSG mentioned the book, "The Gift of Fear," and I may take a look.

[Zapbasket]

Not sure if you're aware but after the infidelity by the ex and divorce in my first marriage, his mother and I maintained contact. We still maintain contact 6 years after the divorce although it's limited to chatting on the phone. So it is possible, as long as you build a different bridge between you.

 

Wow, tbf, no--I did not know that. How were you able to do that especially after you recognized what a real narcissist your ex was? Was there a period of time when you did not have contact with his mother after the divorce? Did she ever acknowledge to you that her son wronged you and disappointed her with his infidelity? Have you ever talked about the relationship in the years since; does she bring him up ever?

 

I can't imagine that, given the circumstances, this liaison wasn't forged without a lot of effort, affection, and respect on both your parts.

[Zapbasket]

I hate to be blunt, but NC with your ex, means NC with his family, too.

 

This is just prolonging the agony.

 

It's like amputating a limb that's gangrenous.

 

You're not going to take it off a little bit at a time - it has to all go - and go quickly.

 

I'm not prepared to face this, but...perhaps you are right. Thing is, though, we live in a very small town, and very near each other...and we work at the same company where she is a longstanding, important presence. So it's impossible to expect that they all will fully disappear from my radar. I know that K and I also will eventually see each other. Actually I was amazed that when we took our break, we did not once run into each other for six whole weeks (which was when we agreed to break the silence).

 

I feel such sadness and doubt in my decision. Every day it hits a little harder. I didn't expect this; I thought when I ended it I would feel better, and comforted by the conviction it was the only thing left to do if I wanted to exit this dynamic we'd gotten into.

[tbf]

Wow, tbf, no--I did not know that. How were you able to do that especially after you recognized what a real narcissist your ex was? Was there a period of time when you did not have contact with his mother after the divorce? Did she ever acknowledge to you that her son wronged you and disappointed her with his infidelity? Have you ever talked about the relationship in the years since; does she bring him up ever?

Because his mother is a separate person. No gap between. Yes, she was very disappointed in her son. Sure, we've spoken about the relationship over the years but the majority of our conversations since divorce have surrounded what's happening in our lives, others we both know (family and acquaintances), mutual interests/hobbies and current events.

 

I can't imagine that, given the circumstances, this liaison wasn't forged without a lot of effort, affection, and respect on both your parts.

True. She's a lovely lady.

[whichwayisup]

I thought when I ended it I would feel better, and comforted by the conviction it was the only thing left to do if I wanted to exit this dynamic we'd gotten into.

Even though you broke up with him, you're still going to hurt and feel pain. It is a loss. That break was 'a break' not a break up a few months ago. So, now it's over and you need to grieve the loss.

 

And, do put some space between you and his mom until you feel less attached to him and have done some grieving, this way when you do see or speak to her again, the topic of conversation won't be about him.

[Ftp53508]

I have to say that I am truly engrossed into your story. I understand the pain and heartache of the position you find yourself. My empathy and best wishes are quickly sent your way Green Cove.

 

I have found, through my years of life, that as soon as you develop an understanding of the difficulties you are in and really understand the lesson being taught the hardship begins to fade and the next phase of your life begins.

 

I know you want to be accepted by K's family and have been to some degree, but remember: THEY ARE NOT YOUR FAMILY. His mother is not your mother.

 

My advise to you is harsh and I'm sorry but here it goes:

Move on. Look how much energy and time you are putting into something that has ended for a reason. You are clinging to hopes that will never manifest in a relationship with his mother.

 

It is your opportunity to start fresh and new now. As a stronger wiser woman who deserves nothing but the best.

 

You want a family? Then start your own with a good man and begin to live again.

 

I do hope my words did not seem hard but resonated within you somewhere I have read your story since the beginning and so want you to take that step forward away from this...mess. You deserve it! Show your quality and strength. Be the example for those around you. Be you...

 

I look forward to your next posts of new found love, new job, new town... and new beginnings.

 

Tell me more...

[Zapbasket]

Before I say more, let me say that I have put a call out to a psychotherapist where I live who is recommended by a person whose judgment I trust. I have no one to talk to here and am feeling really snowed under by everything.

 

After that talk with K's mom on Thursday, I couldn't get one thing out of my mind. She'd asked me, "Do you feel you truly tried your best? That's what counts, ultimately." And at the time, I said, "Yes, I think so--I'm sure in ten years I'd do many things differently, but as relates to who I am now, and my skills now, I think I did try my best."

 

And then I thought back over my behavior throughout this relationship. I felt ashamed of how mad I got at him after a while, how I'd started to shut off, and just in general how I always have to be "The Lawyer," as K called me, and maybe how I need to be right too much of the time.

 

Maybe it was that line of thinking, maybe it was something else, honestly I don't know, maybe it was just love and remorse, but I contacted him on Saturday. He was mad and said he was "done" and "had already started to move on," but he agreed to a face-to-face conversation. I went to his apartment, which is above his parents' separate garage, down a separate driveway from the driveway that leads to his parents' house, where they have their own, attached three-car garage.

 

When I pulled in, K's mom was outside. She was surprised and glad to see me and I told her I'd done some thinking and had a few more ideas of what we could try to do to go forward. She insisted on going to see K before I went up there. The next morning, she called me to ask whether I was okay, and she told me when she went up there she called him out on his irritability and impatience with people. She told him that when he does it with her, she said, "I hate it." She said he'll never keep a woman if he keeps up like that.

 

K came down and together we went to his apartment where we talked for four hours. He was so angry with me and blamed me for all the stuckness of the relationship. I instantly pushed back and said, "That is not fair; you were there in the relationship and were stuck when I met you, so that just doesn't add up." I begged him to stop seeing me as an enemy, and said I was doing the same. I said both of us needed to stop the blame game. Instead of arguing over whose fault it was that we didn't go out and enjoy ourselves more, I said that if we went forward, we should focus on just making it happen and letting the past go. I said I thought we should see a counselor together, and asked him if he would agree to that. He said he had to think about it, and he was going camping for three days, so he'll be back Tuesday and I'm hoping he won't leave me hanging for too long. He said he didn't know whether he was on the same page with me--that he felt "pressured" and maybe just wasn't ready to take the steps with me that I've been asking for for over a year (talking about the future and what we want for ourselves and for the relationship. Having a timeline of sorts, and a plan-in-progress. Nothing written in stone.)

 

I recognize that here I am, once again waiting to see if a guy wants me enough to try to continue, observing him blaming me and vilifying me rather than saying, "I really messed up, too, and it makes me sad that we spent so much time arguing when we could have been enjoying life together." I see this, and yet I cannot let go, and I don't know why.

 

For reasons I do not understand, I cannot seem to let this relationship go. I know there are reasons, and I know they are many and varied. But at this point I think I need someone to help me understand what is going on in my mind in terms of why this relationship, as difficult as it has been, has such a hold on me. I know there is a piece in there of fear of having ONCE AGAIN to pick up, possibly move, which scares me and makes me sad because I love the outdoors here; this place really makes you fall in love with it even if social and career prospects here have been sh*tty. And I don't understand that, either. And, I know it's not the only thing at work in me.

 

Interestingly, the next morning when his mom called me, she point-blank told me that ever since K was very young, he has been irritable and has poked and teased and gotten under people's skin, namely, his oldest younger sister, who reacted to it as I did--she hated it, and it would upset her sometimes to tears or she would get mad. His mom told me with his youngest younger sister, she just would have none of it; it didn't perturb her in the least and he eventually stopped with her because he wasn't getting a reaction.

 

She told me she has seen him act this way also with his girlfriends and they have not liked it, and on occasion he has been that way with her and she hates it. One former girlfriend tried to take it, but eventually it would hurt her and K's mom said she could see it happening. She asked me of course to keep this between us, but she did finally come out and say she recognized a deep-seated problem.

 

I really hope this psychotherapist works out. I am very confused and now, on top of it, sad because I'm left wondering what the status of things are, just like I was a few weeks ago with his email. Surely no rational person would choose this over someone who is excited about committing to her, who doesn't leave her hanging all the time. Then again, I probably need to be more patient....

 

I'm not even making sense. Hence why I need help through this thicket.

 

Sorry this is so long but I just needed to get it all out.

[sunshinegirl]

I hope you figure it out, GC.

 

I don't really understand why you would put yourself back into such a painful cycle, after 3 years of it, and particularly after learning that his deep-seated problems go back to childhood (i.e. they are extremely deeply engrained).

 

I definitely cycled back into relationships a couple of times, but I eventually learned my lesson and got out. It never, ever worked the second time or third time around and hope is a terrible thing to live off of in an intimate relationship.

 

I wish you well with the psychotherapy appointment - I hope this is a skilled person who can encourage you to grapple with why you make choices that will almost inevitably hurt you more.

[Zapbasket]

Thanks, SSG. I really feel like I'm not in the driver's seat: I try one thing because it feels right; I try something else because *that* feels right; I don't understand at all what is driving me.

 

I really feel like I have lost my way. Not 100%, but enough that something needs to be done.

 

Have any of you felt this way at one point in your life?

 

I think there is a lot of fear behind all this, and it's paralyzing me.

[Star Gazer]

She'd asked me, "Do you feel you truly tried your best? That's what counts, ultimately." And at the time, I said, "Yes, I think so--I'm sure in ten years I'd do many things differently, but as relates to who I am now, and my skills now, I think I did try my best."

 

And then I thought back over my behavior throughout this relationship. I felt ashamed of how mad I got at him after a while, how I'd started to shut off, and just in general how I always have to be "The Lawyer," as K called me, and maybe how I need to be right too much of the time.

 

...

 

For reasons I do not understand, I cannot seem to let this relationship go.

 

GC: I was going to ask you the same question, because I believe the latter bolded was true. I don't know the complete details of your relationship, but if the problems really come down to communication issues, and do not involve cheating or abuse, I think refusing counseling - at his suggestion - does you and your relationship a disservice. I'm glad you reconsidered.

 

All the best.

[Zapbasket]

Sorry for not being clear, Star Gazer: I was the one who suggested couples counseling to him as a way to go forward. He is "thinking it over." In the above post, I'm talking about putting a call out to a psychotherapist for ME. I feel really confused and I need someone to help me see through all this more clearly than I can get myself to see on my own, it seems.

[Star Gazer]

My apologies. When you said, "She said she did not agree with my feeling that counseling would not help us at this point, maybe individual counseling but not couples counseling," it sounded like you were of the opinion that counseling was pointless, and she was disagreeing with you.

 

In any event, we can all benefit from individual therapy/counseling/coaching. All of us. So, good for you.

[Zapbasket]

My apologies. When you said, "She said she did not agree with my feeling that counseling would not help us at this point, maybe individual counseling but not couples counseling," it sounded like you were of the opinion that counseling was pointless, and she was disagreeing with you.

 

In any event, we can all benefit from individual therapy/counseling/coaching. All of us. So, good for you.

 

No worries--I just went back to my original post and saw what you were responding to. I did have strong feelings for a long time that couples counseling would not help us because K seemed to be in such denial about many of his issues, but in particular that insidious getting under my skin thing he does. It's hard to sit in counseling with someone so lacking in self-awareness in some areas. And though I'm not against individual counseling EVER, from a mental-health-field job I had in the small town where I live I was so appalled by the poor quality of mental health practitioners that I vowed never to go to one here.

 

But at this point, my confusion and need for some clarity is so great that I feel no choice but to drop my standards. Sometimes just having a person with a sofa and an ear to talk to is beneficial unto itself, despite any lack of education or quality training the person might have. We'll see. I only know that I must, must do something.

[Zapbasket]

A friend of mine (male) said to me a few years ago, "GreenCove, you are a very powerful woman and many guys just might not be able to keep up with you. It sure'll be interesting to see who you end up with."

 

I know he meant it as a compliment, or at least just stating what he felt to be the truth. And to his face, I accepted it as such. But privately this hurts me. Everyone keeps assuring me that there ARE men out there who'd be eager to commit to me, who wouldn't keep me stringing along for three years and who would work through relationship issues with me with maturity and without treating me as some sort of enemy. But when they say that, some part of me adds, "Yeah, those guys are like that. Until they meet me."

 

Because let's take this relationship with K. When he started out with bad behavior after just a few dates (peeing on me in the shower on our first ever shower together and then getting mad at me when I got upset, as just one example), and I started calling him out on it, over time it's like I became the B*tch and the Nag and I consider myself neither of these things. But here I sit, with it left with K that he would consider my proposition to continue the relationship but go for couples counseling together, and once again, as per usual, I'm left hanging when everyone tells me there are men who would NOT do this...and I feel pretty certain he's going to say he doesn't want to continue because now he just thinks of me as a b*tch without recognizing that when you get under someone's skin all the time and get irritated with about 90% of things that person does and says, unless you are with someone with such low self-esteem that she just takes it, you're going to get called out for your behavior.

 

And so it goes. I manage to overpower every guy I've been with, until they don't want to be with me anymore.

[Zapbasket]

I just got this email from his sister:

 

Hey! No worries about the cards. [K's younger niece] is just in that "phase" of jealousy but it only lasts about 20 seconds. Anytime I say anything to [K's older niece], she expects the same compliment...lol. Honestly, it was a 5 second ordeal and never brought back up.

 

They want to see you. They were just telling me last night they really, really want to play with you. They love u to pieces. No adult plays with them like you do.

 

I might be there this weekend. If so, will you be around?

 

I don't know what's going to go down with K this week. But I don't feel I can refuse such a sweet request. I feel pulled in a million directions. :-(

[sunshinegirl]

I know he meant it as a compliment, or at least just stating what he felt to be the truth. And to his face, I accepted it as such. But privately this hurts me. Everyone keeps assuring me that there ARE men out there who'd be eager to commit to me, who wouldn't keep me stringing along for three years and who would work through relationship issues with me with maturity and without treating me as some sort of enemy. But when they say that, some part of me adds, "Yeah, those guys are like that. Until they meet me."

 

GC, this is the kind of thinking you need to tackle with the help of a skilled professional. It's not YOU, per se; I strongly believe it's your man-picker. You are picking men (consciously, or likely subconsciously) that wind up doing annoying/disrespectful things, and then you stick around for more treatment that you don't like.

 

I don't believe for a minute that you have some magical power to transform fundamentally good guys into bad/disrespectful ones. It's about who you're choosing / who you're attracted to / who you then stay with despite red flags and general unhappiness.

 

Believe me, for a long time I believed something similar to your snippet above. It was such a breath of fresh air to realize, finally, that there wasn't something *fundamentally wrong* with me as a human being -- it was all about my patterns of attraction.

 

My therapist told me at one point, that one sign that I was in a healthy relationship is that I would find it, at some level, "boring." At the time I was appalled - who wants a boring relationship??? - but now I perfectly understand what she meant. Finding someone who is fundamentally compatible with me meant that there was no drama, no need to psychoanalyze what he was thinking or doing, no walking on pins and needles, no feelings of insecurity. My now-husband has NEVER given me reason to cry or worry about what's going on. And I've never had to wonder or hope that he would change in a major way in order for us to "work." In turn, I didn't 'have' to be pushy or dramatic myself in the relationship - I could relax into it and into a non-stressed version of me - in a relationship that really brings out my best.

 

To be sure, we have to negotiate certain ways of being together (e.g. we had a big long discussion/argument last night about our division of housework, we had discussions early on about how we fought with each other, that kind of thing) but these are a far cry from the very deep incompatibilities that you seem to struggle with in your relationships.

 

I'll add that it may well be that you could use some help improving how you communicate, or reality-checking some of your expectations in an intimate relationship. But from what you describe, it seems that the incompatibilities run much deeper than can be fixed with better communication skills -- they sound like fundamental misalignments in values, goals, and aspirations. It's possible that those incompatibilities alone may be sparking your own behaviors that don't help the situation.

[sunshinegirl]

And so it goes. I manage to overpower every guy I've been with, until they don't want to be with me anymore.

 

I reject this.

 

I'm a very educated and successful professional woman and I have heard feedback now and again that I am intimidating. For a time I actually believed that I would never find a man because of it. COMPLETELY FALSE. Obviously.

 

Again, like I just posted, if you have communication patterns that tend to be overwhelming to a guy (or not helpful in whatever way), I would back the train up even further because I'll argue again that you are picking guys that aren't compatible and that incompatibility likely brings out communication patterns in you that don't help.

 

Seriously, I wouldn't work in therapy on the communication stuff (whatever there might be) right now. I strongly believe you need to go deep, go into some really hard terrain, to unpack where your man-picking patterns come from.

 

One final thing: it is actually FANTASTIC NEWS that you should be in therapy. This means that YOU HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE YOUR FUTURE. Which is way, way, way better than proverbially wringing your hands, hoping/wishing/begging for somebody else to change their stripes in order to give you that happy future you want. YOU'RE IN CONTROL, girl! Embrace it!

Edited June 18, 2013 by sunshinegirl

[Zapbasket]

 

I don't believe for a minute that you have some magical power to transform fundamentally good guys into bad/disrespectful ones. It's about who you're choosing / who you're attracted to / who you then stay with despite red flags and general unhappiness.

 

Forgive me, because I'm going to respond to your insightful post with my pygmy brain for a second. I agree that it doesn't make sense that I could somehow transform a good guy into a disrespectful/noncommittal one. But somehow these guys, all of whom were so excited to be with me in the beginning (K not in the ways I normally expect, but he did show it in always wanting to be with me in the beginning), got to a point where they were 100% perfectly fine with letting me go and never looking back, or at least not enough to reach out to me ever again. And now here I am, waiting to hear from K and feeling like I know this drill very well by now: he's going to say he wants to end it, to not go to counseling with me, and he'll be fine with never seeing me again or having me in his life at all.

 

And what I don't understand--again, this is my pygmy mind speaking right now--is why, when we inevitably reach that crossroads where there must be a completely new direction taken if the relationship is to continue, these guys, K probably included, choose to bow out rather than work through the issues with me. I feel when they do that that they feel I am the problem, and not them, and not "us." And it kills my pride and my heart to think of K going into another relationship with someone else and either a) having learned his lesson and treating this new girl with a respect he never showed me, or b) treating this woman the same way but she not having a problem with it. And so it all works out perfectly for him, while I have to be rejected.

 

I just want one guy I've been with to come back and say, "I made a lot of mistakes, and you are a wonderful woman and I don't want to lose you over a litany of stupid arguments. Let's go to counseling together; let's focus on getting out and having more fun together; let's agree that when misunderstandings arise, we do whatever it takes--each of us chewing on a chunk of brick if it comes to that--to keep it from escalating, and working with the counselor to learn ways of diffusing those moments. I love you, and I want this to work."

 

I think especially with K, it hurts to think he would just walk away at this point, after three years of always getting under my skin while saying all he wants is a peaceful relationship with me. It hurts to think he would treat me that way, turn it into me treating HIM in a bad way, and then go off into the sunset and treat some other girl much better.

[Zapbasket]

Again, like I just posted, if you have communication patterns that tend to be overwhelming to a guy (or not helpful in whatever way), I would back the train up even further because I'll argue again that you are picking guys that aren't compatible and that incompatibility likely brings out communication patterns in you that don't help.

 

Seriously, I wouldn't work in therapy on the communication stuff (whatever there might be) right now. I strongly believe you need to go deep, go into some really hard terrain, to unpack where your man-picking patterns come from.

 

I so hope you're right--and as I've said before I take comfort in the fact that you struggled with some of the same things and then came out the other side to find a guy who enabled you to relax and be your best self. I hope that happens with me. It's hard to see that now because it would be unprecedented in my world.

 

I've started questioning whether men in general really like me. It seems I enamor a lot of men at first--I'm attractive, independent, and have, as people have told me, a very optimistic, fresh energy about me (not that you could tell from my posts, lol). But then it seems I scare many of them off. It's never my intent, but it seems to come off that I dominate them. As a female friend said to me once, "You're an alpha." And the ex that brought me to loveshack said once, "You're a very strong person and so it's hard to remember that you also can be very fragile." This thing with men that I feel always surprises me, because I'm not "brassy" or "brash"; I'm friendly, ask them questions about themselves, am playful.

 

I guess what I'm saying: I don't have any idea what the right man for me even would look like, in terms of characteristics. I don't think I've ever met such a man. Or, as I fear...if I have, I must've scared him off.

 

So hoping I can come through to the other side of this....

[Ftp53508]

I just want one guy I've been with to come back and say, "I made a lot of mistakes, and you are a wonderful woman and I don't want to lose you over a litany of stupid arguments. Let's go to counseling together; let's focus on getting out and having more fun together; let's agree that when misunderstandings arise, we do whatever it takes--each of us chewing on a chunk of brick if it comes to that--to keep it from escalating, and working with the counselor to learn ways of diffusing those moments. I love you, and I want this to work."

 

 

I have to jump in here (from a Male point of view) and stop you. I really don't know YOU but have read your posts and see a pattern in myself with women. I'm in a relationship right now and we are taking a break for a few days for self discovery -my idea.

 

I have spent the last few days learning about me and my motives and see a lot of similarities.

 

Here we go: I think I choose women who need to be rescued. Women who have flaws that I think I can fix. This to me is validation that I am a well adjust male adult. I need to surround myself with weaker partners to give me the physiological edge and ego boost. But become frustrated and saddened when I can not fix them. I try harder, dwell on why they can't live up to my expectations and condemn them. I fight to the very end trying to "Save" them even when everyone else says walk away. It's pride. I don't want to see myself as a failure.

 

"M" and I plan to get back together on Thursday. I anticipate a happy reunion but short lived. I have come to the understanding that she may have not changed. She may still remain emotionally distant and unreachable. This is her character this is who she is. I am sad but I now know that I am just not her match -at least not at this time.

 

So my advise? Focus on you. See the pattern for what it really is. No one is perfect but some people are perfect for us.

 

Best of luck and keep me up to date!

[sunshinegirl]

And what I don't understand--again, this is my pygmy mind speaking right now--is why, when we inevitably reach that crossroads where there must be a completely new direction taken if the relationship is to continue, these guys, K probably included, choose to bow out rather than work through the issues with me. I feel when they do that that they feel I am the problem, and not them, and not "us."

 

I just want one guy I've been with to come back and say, "I made a lot of mistakes, and you are a wonderful woman and I don't want to lose you over a litany of stupid arguments. Let's go to counseling together; let's focus on getting out and having more fun together; let's agree that when misunderstandings arise, we do whatever it takes--each of us chewing on a chunk of brick if it comes to that--to keep it from escalating, and working with the counselor to learn ways of diffusing those moments. I love you, and I want this to work."

 

IMO, you're asking the wrong questions. Why are you staying in relationships that have to get to a dramatic crossroads in the first place? Why would you want any man to have to admit "I've made lots of mistakes..."? Why don't you strive for a guy who isn't a big fixer-upper project?

 

It's not as though things are peachy and perfect up until the crossroads -- you ignore the bad signs (and "mistakes") and keep hoping something (in them) will change, until you get the point where you can't tolerate it anymore -- and then you think they're suddenly going to do all kinds of hard work, when they've demonstrated all along - and in prior relationships too - that they're not willing to do it. Seriously - where does this come from? You have some deep-seated need to "win" them over in some way, to have them change in significant ways, for YOU. Why?

 

As for this:

And it kills my pride and my heart to think of K going into another relationship with someone else and either a) having learned his lesson and treating this new girl with a respect he never showed me, or b) treating this woman the same way but she not having a problem with it. And so it all works out perfectly for him, while I have to be rejected.

 

It's almost verbatim what I said about my 2008 ex. First of all, he's not going to change his stripes. Really, he isn't. Years later, I hear that ex is exactly the same as he was with me - still as closed off and uncommunicative as ever. Guess what? He's somebody else's problem now!

 

Second of all, who cares if he finds some woman who has no problem with it? I mean this with my whole heart: looking back, I am SO GLAD HE REJECTED ME. It freed me up to figure out my issues (finally) and it literally paved the way for me to meet the right guy. So, hooray if he finds somebody who's fine with how he is! A lid for every pot and all that. Who he winds up with has no bearing and no impact on who you wind up with. As trite as it sounds, this isn't a competition. And while you're hurting now, if you can eventually embrace this chance you've been given to get to the heart of your own man-picker problems, your future is going to be way, way happier than it would ever have been with K.

[Zapbasket]

Well, on Wednesday I had my first appointment with a psychotherapist recommended to me by someone whose judgment on these things I trust. There was a lot of background-story-gathering, of course, but two things came up: one, that in my relationship with K. I seem to be recapitulating the dynamic I had with my abusive stepfather: to survive living with my stepfather I had to believe his love was right around the next corner, while meanwhile I hated how he treated me and eventually genuinely came to hate him. But always I'd be trying to win his love, and failing, and then getting punished when I let my rage toward him express itself, through mouthing off, etc. So somewhere in that I'd end up blaming myself for being unable to win his love, because I had behaved "badly."

 

The second thing that came up was that the therapist pointed out that I seem to pick the kind of men who *would* be intimidated by my feisty personality and communicativeness. He said what you guys have been saying, that there *are* men who would find those qualities very attractive, not threatening at all. It seems like something you could hear once and then absorb it, but apparently I need to keep hearing it and eventually, I trust, I will believe it and be able to act on it.

 

As far as K. goes, he actually surprised me by returning from his camping trip and immediately contacting me, asking to meet up. He said he wants to work on things and try to go forward. I'll just say that I'm really glad it wasn't just same old, same old in terms of what usually transpires at the crossroads in my relationships with the previous men I have dated. I still suspect a breakup looms, but on my end, and after some time of working with this therapist to have some clarity on my issues. Additionally, I'm actively looking to move from here, to another part of the state, and some other aspects of my career are moving forward nicely. I said to K. that I didn't know what ultimately would happen with us, but that I didn't feel we came into each others' lives to spend three years fighting and then that was it. I hope we can both grow and things can be amicable.

 

Why, you might ask, do I feel that a breakup still is inevitable? Because he has, still, NO PLAN for himself. He's not even looking to move out of the apartment in his parents' property. That piece, even if he treated me perfectly in every other way, just is untenable for me. Because there's this I want to believe more deeply with the help of this therapist: I am an ambitious, accomplished person and I should and can be with someone who also is that way. I'm not pushing him anymore to talk with me about the future. I'm tired of asking. So, I'm just going to keep going to my therapist and hold off doing anything until I better understand why I ended the relationship after all those years of my gut telling me to do so, and then freaked out and completely lost my nerve.