Now I'm doubting myself :-(

[Zapbasket]

I think that holding this therapist up as being "a cut above" and then doubting his professionalism at a pretty profound level seems like a contradiction. Your therapist has more distance from the situation and he surely knows that he must avoid even the appearance of breaking confidences or showing bias. Do you think otherwise?

 

I think until I considered your interpretation below, I thought "innocent *******" was a show of bias. I read it through the lens of my perception that K gets off the hook on things by never making a clear decision, and he's been enabled in that. And I felt there was "bias" in that I want to explore my role in the push-pull dynamic between K and I, but I wouldn't feel I could do that if my therapist didn't see that no push-pull dynamic can be "innocent." Not entirely.

 

I do trust my therapist's professionalism...but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the fact that he's seeing both K and me...and I'm not sure why, quite. The discomfort comes and goes.

 

IMO, I think his use of the word "innocent" is more benign than you may think. I take it to mean that K probably never *intended* to be hurtful - even his admitting he likes to get under your skin doesn't inevitably mean he was actually trying to hurt you - and so in that sense he may be "innocent." But don't forget that the therapist also paired it with "*******" which suggests to me that he's not letting his crappy behavior off the hook.

 

Ah, this is why I ask for other people's opinions. I hadn't thought of this possibility and it makes good sense.

 

Come to think of it, with benefit of hindsight, "innocent *******" pretty perfectly describes two of my exes, even though they hurt me profoundly, and left a bloody trail of damage in their respective wakes. That's what having perspective and distance will do for you -- you can see former tormenters (per se) in a more generous light. Right now you don't have perspective or distance; your therapist does.

 

Very true. Both in that I lack perspective and distance both; and that often emotionally cool people are excoriated as intentionally mean when in fact they just don't notice. Which is not a good attribute...but it doesn't make them people out for the kill, either. I'm glad you can say that now, because I know how hurt you were by the callousness of the last ex in particular. Time really does heal....

 

Thanks so much for your perspective. My emotions and thoughts are all over the place and the sadness feels like a family of beavers has mistaken me for a log and is gnawing my heart out. I'm not in a place that is conducive to seeing much of anything for what it is.

[Zapbasket]

"How r u?"

 

This was the text message I received from K's mom--the first communication between us since things ended ten days ago.

 

Why do people think text is ever an appropriate medium for things of gravity, like a relationship ending? I've been hoping to hear from her. I didn't reach out to her because I had no way of knowing whether she'd heard the news yet, and then I can't know either whether K asked her to cut contact with me or not. I thought I'd hear from her, but not via text.

 

Anyway, I replied, "Don't know how to answer that, but glad to hear from you ."

 

She responded, "I am not sure how to respond. But :("

 

And I said, "I just meant that I can't answer that over text very well."

 

Uggghhh. Can't she take a clue? If we're going to talk at all, the only appropriate thing after the relationship we have had to date is to meet face to face. I don't want to ask for that because I don't want to put myself in the position of being rejected.

 

I just hate this. The last time K and I "broke up," back in June, she contacted me almost immediately and we met for three hours.

 

I want the chance to meet with her; it feels like a goodbye of sorts but perhaps only a goodbye to the way things were without necessarily cutting things off altogether. But to just go from what we had to seeing each other occasionally through work, at the grocery, etc. and exchanging pleasantries without ever acknowledging what happened just makes me cry. It seems so shallow.

 

I'm so sad I've lost the people who have meant the most to me here.

[Zapbasket]

Today, at the end of my therapy session, I said about K something along the lines of, "All that effort, and in the end, he didn't really love me." And my therapist said, "He is 'constitutionally incapable,' to borrow a term from AA." I nodded, thinking I knew what he meant, but as I thought about it later I realized I didn't understand.

 

Is anyone familiar with that term? What does it mean as it applies to relationships?

 

It came up in the context of discussing how I basically found myself "alone on the dance floor" in this relationship over the years, and how instead of recognizing that and leaving, I redoubled my efforts, with no corresponding redoubling of effort from K.

[sunshinegirl]

Today, at the end of my therapy session, I said about K something along the lines of, "All that effort, and in the end, he didn't really love me." And my therapist said, "He is 'constitutionally incapable,' to borrow a term from AA." I nodded, thinking I knew what he meant, but as I thought about it later I realized I didn't understand.

 

Is anyone familiar with that term? What does it mean as it applies to relationships?

 

It came up in the context of discussing how I basically found myself "alone on the dance floor" in this relationship over the years, and how instead of recognizing that and leaving, I redoubled my efforts, with no corresponding redoubling of effort from K.

 

Sounds like a fancy term for him being unable to love.

[Zapbasket]

Sounds like a fancy term for him being unable to love.

 

Wow, it sure does. Telling given that K. is also a client of my therapist.

[Zapbasket]

I just read through part of a thread I started back in 2008, when I was trying to decide whether to move out west for a guy I'd only been dating six months. I suppose I was looking for a psychological trail that led from considerations about coming out west to having been here now for five years.

 

What I read made me cringe. Everyone is telling me that that guy--and the whole situation, really--was bad news, and I couldn't hear it. I made endless excuses for the guy, endless excuses for why moving west to live with him was a good idea.

 

Why am I so dumb? I'm so ashamed of the weak, self-doubting, always-in-turmoil self that manifests in my romantic relationships. In every area but romance, I am accomplished and confident--a completely different person than what is suggested by my really bad romance novel of a love life.

 

I feel completely daunted by the work I have ahead of me, because clearly I am so blind when it comes to relationships. And I just don't get it: sure, I've had some difficulties in my life and in my family of origin, but generally I come from a loving family. And while there was some verbal and emotional abuse and abandonment, I was never sexually abused or beaten. So what the heck?

 

And what's even more of a head-scratcher is that I'm often perfectly perspicacious about the situation, my feelings, my issues. I articulate them well. But then it's like some other part of me is deaf to these insights and plows forward anyway, despite scads of evidence that doing so is a horrible idea.

 

Sharing this because I suspect lots of us here on LS can relate.

[sunshinegirl]

I just read through part of a thread I started back in 2008, when I was trying to decide whether to move out west for a guy I'd only been dating six months. I suppose I was looking for a psychological trail that led from considerations about coming out west to having been here now for five years.

 

What I read made me cringe. Everyone is telling me that that guy--and the whole situation, really--was bad news, and I couldn't hear it. I made endless excuses for the guy, endless excuses for why moving west to live with him was a good idea.

 

Why am I so dumb? I'm so ashamed of the weak, self-doubting, always-in-turmoil self that manifests in my romantic relationships. In every area but romance, I am accomplished and confident--a completely different person than what is suggested by my really bad romance novel of a love life.

 

I feel completely daunted by the work I have ahead of me, because clearly I am so blind when it comes to relationships. And I just don't get it: sure, I've had some difficulties in my life and in my family of origin, but generally I come from a loving family. And while there was some verbal and emotional abuse and abandonment, I was never sexually abused or beaten. So what the heck?

 

And what's even more of a head-scratcher is that I'm often perfectly perspicacious about the situation, my feelings, my issues. I articulate them well. But then it's like some other part of me is deaf to these insights and plows forward anyway, despite scads of evidence that doing so is a horrible idea.

 

Sharing this because I suspect lots of us here on LS can relate.

 

I couldn't understand how I got to be so messed up about relationships, either. I couldn't point to anything obvious - my parents were happily married, there was no abuse of any kind, I had a very Americana upbringing, plus my sisters didn't have the same issues I did. So what was the deal??? In the end I had to chalk it up to a particular chemistry between specific circumstances/dynamics and my own disposition and personality. My dad loved me but traveled all the time for work and was not emotionally expressive (cue 'unavailable men'); and my religious/church upbringing added a whole other layer of martyrdom/sacrifice/self-denial/don't-ask-questions (cue 'don't leave, no matter what') to the mix.

 

You are rather dismissive about the fact that there was verbal and emotional abuse and abandonment in your history. Why?

[Zapbasket]

You are rather dismissive about the fact that there was verbal and emotional abuse and abandonment in your history. Why?

 

Mmm, I guess I was.

 

What I had intended in saying that was that in contrast to people who had not ONE reliable caregiver and routinely endured emotional and physical boundary violations such that they had NEVER experienced what it was like to be around a truly loving person, I grew up with loving adults around me. My dad died tragically when I was two (abandonment), but other than that I experienced emotional and verbal abuse from one person--my stepfather. And I was lucky in that regard, too: in contrast to people who have to deal with these unsavory characters all through their adulthood, my mother divorced my stepfather when I was 23 and I never saw or heard from him again (again, abandonment). And once he was out of the picture I felt an incredible lightness, like I could finally explore the world and who I was.

 

So while my stepfather was bad news, I was around enough other good examples of behavior and experienced enough other loving contact that you'd think I'd be able to choose better partners, and leave when it becomes evident that something in these partners renders them "constitutionally incapable" of healthfully giving and receiving love.

 

But you're right: I did kind-of dismiss the impact of my stepfather's treatment of me, that lasted from age 7 until age 23, with daily contact with his behavior from age 9 until age 18. Didn't mean to, but I did.

 

It's just...there are people who endure HORRIBLE circumstances and they're able to form better boundaries. Their love lives aren't the mess mine is. It seems that because I am smart, socially adept, and generally very high-functioning that I ought somehow to be able to have better results OUTWARDLY even if INWARDLY I'm having issues. Like, I should be able to find a loving guy and have a mutually supportive relationship despite these issues. I dunno.

 

What do you think it was about YOU in contrast to your sisters that led certain facets of your upbringing to block your ability to make healthy relationship choices? Are you generally more conscientious and sensitive than your sisters?

[sunshinegirl]

What do you think it was about YOU in contrast to your sisters that led certain facets of your upbringing to block your ability to make healthy relationship choices? Are you generally more conscientious and sensitive than your sisters?

 

I'm more sensitive, analytical, and idealistic than my sisters. Which might have led me to over-analyze and justify staying in bad situations (letting my thinking overrule my gut instincts) rather than cut bait. I had this whole (only semi-conscious) thing of putting somebody else's needs ahead of my own - effectively voiding altogether my own feelings and needs and self-respect in service to the other person. Which is obviously connected to being sensitive/analytical/idealistic.

 

Operating at a very very deep level was also this feeling that I could win or buy someone's love. I had a saviour complex for a long time - believed that (my) unconditional love could heal, that I could unlock someone else's potential to love and support and give the way I did... and tried to do so with a narcissistic gay man for over two years! Then repeated that pattern a few more times (tellingly, with a man who openly admitted he does not empathize with people) before figuring out how dumb it is.

 

Your comment to your therapist is telling: "All that effort, and in the end, he didn't really love me." You're connecting effort with love, at some level implying that effort should win/buy/be-rewarded-with love. You're going to have to unlearn this, big time.

Edited September 4, 2013 by sunshinegirl

[Zapbasket]

I'm more sensitive, analytical, and idealistic than my sisters. Which might have led me to over-analyze and justify staying in bad situations (letting my thinking overrule my gut instincts) rather than cut bait. I had this whole (only semi-conscious) thing of putting somebody else's needs ahead of my own - effectively voiding altogether my own feelings and needs and self-respect in service to the other person. Which is obviously connected to being sensitive/analytical/idealistic.

 

Operating at a very very deep level was also this feeling that I could win or buy someone's love. I had a saviour complex for a long time - believed that (my) unconditional love could heal, that I could unlock someone else's potential to love and support and give the way I did... and tried to do so with a narcissistic gay man for over two years! Then repeated that pattern a few more times (tellingly, with a man who openly admitted he does not empathize with people) before figuring out how dumb it is.

 

Your comment to your therapist is telling: "All that effort, and in the end, he didn't really love me." You're connecting effort with love, at some level implying that effort should win/buy/be-rewarded-with love. You're going to have to unlearn this, big time.

 

I had to think about this for a couple of days to suss out whether I recognize these tendencies in myself. And I realized I do: on some level I feel that if I stick with someone no matter what, they'll reward me with equal loyalty. I don't *plot* my loyalty to manipulate loyalty in return, but when a relationship ends I think, "What?! I busted my a*s in this relationship and stuck by him for all sorts of unsavory behaviors and they dare walk away?"

 

More generally, I just assume all along that anyone I'm with for more than a year or two is as dedicated to the relationship as I am. I unconsciously ignore signs to the contrary, or I make endless excuses for them.

 

And, like you I'm very conscientious, idealistic, sensitive, and analytical. I think these traits contribute to a "never, ever give up" attitude that keeps me churning along even when I'm the only one trying.

 

How do I possibly change these thought patterns? Right now I'm so confused, making excuses for K and feeling at fault for what went wrong, while knowing at the same time that it's baloney, and then questioning that knowledge. I'm feel completely nuts

[sunshinegirl]

I had to think about this for a couple of days to suss out whether I recognize these tendencies in myself. And I realized I do: on some level I feel that if I stick with someone no matter what, they'll reward me with equal loyalty. I don't *plot* my loyalty to manipulate loyalty in return, but when a relationship ends I think, "What?! I busted my a*s in this relationship and stuck by him for all sorts of unsavory behaviors and they dare walk away?"

 

More generally, I just assume all along that anyone I'm with for more than a year or two is as dedicated to the relationship as I am. I unconsciously ignore signs to the contrary, or I make endless excuses for them.

 

This is alllll very familiar territory to me. And, to be clear, none of this was happening (for me) at a conscious level. Sounds like the same with you.

 

And, like you I'm very conscientious, idealistic, sensitive, and analytical. I think these traits contribute to a "never, ever give up" attitude that keeps me churning along even when I'm the only one trying.

 

How do I possibly change these thought patterns? Right now I'm so confused, making excuses for K and feeling at fault for what went wrong, while knowing at the same time that it's baloney, and then questioning that knowledge. I'm feel completely nuts

 

All I can say is the hard work I did somehow produced enough change in me to get out of the pattern. Some of it had to do with recognizing my own limitations (I can't actually change anyone else); some of it with learning to value and thus protect myself (i.e. dating someone with (unrealized) potential will always only hurt me in the end - so stop doing it!); some of it with learning how to distinguish between my gut instinct and my fears.

 

You'll get there. It's okay to feel nuts, and confused. Don't worry too much about *how* you will change. Just trust that doing the work will lead to the changes you want - and to a healthier, happier you. I really believe that.