Now I'm doubting myself :-(

[Zapbasket]

GC, my perception of you is that you're an introverted intellectual. Smaller cities or towns aren't good for you which includes a very limited variety of career opportunities.

 

Funny, I've never thought of it quite that way but you might be right. In real life I'm more of a "closet introvert" and "closet intellectual." I can be very, very extroverted; I love meeting and conversing with new people; and I can be very goofy and irreverent and love to laugh. I just need space to pull in and nerd out and philosophize, and I like having people to share that with, too...and so far here the only person I could share that side with was K.

 

Somehow when I moved here I thought mountain towns might have some interesting, beat-of-their-own-drum, artsy/intellectual types...but those that are considered that where I live I have frankly found to be really weird. As in, really poor social skills. I on the other hand have good social skills and enjoy hanging out with people who are a) emotionally stable and b) straightforward and c) interpersonally savvy which usually means d) possessing great senses of humor. It seems sad that I should have to go to a city to find that.

[sunshinegirl]

I'm thinking about a place like Berkeley and may take a short trip there to see if it "speaks" to me at this stage of my life. The thought of having to pick up and move is overwhelming to me right now, tbh. There's a possibility of a corporate opportunity here and I'm waiting to see how it pans out.

 

Hmm, well, H and I are actually moving temporarily to the Bay Area in October, so if you end up visiting (or moving!) you'll 'know' at least one person there.

[tbf]

Funny, I've never thought of it quite that way but you might be right. In real life I'm more of a "closet introvert" and "closet intellectual." I can be very, very extroverted; I love meeting and conversing with new people; and I can be very goofy and irreverent and love to laugh. I just need space to pull in and nerd out and philosophize, and I like having people to share that with, too...and so far here the only person I could share that side with was K.

 

Somehow when I moved here I thought mountain towns might have some interesting, beat-of-their-own-drum, artsy/intellectual types...but those that are considered that where I live I have frankly found to be really weird. As in, really poor social skills. I on the other hand have good social skills and enjoy hanging out with people who are a) emotionally stable and b) straightforward and c) interpersonally savvy which usually means d) possessing great senses of humor. It seems sad that I should have to go to a city to find that.

Most introverts need down time to refuel their social energy level. Do you know the theory about introverts v. extroverts where introverts recharge from within and extroverts recharge from external stimulation.

 

Introverts use indirect routes through their neural nets, having a greater number of dopamine receptors which cause circuitous thinking. This is why introverts can overstimulate.

 

Extroverts use a shorter path of getting dopamine hits, using environmental stimuli to trigger dopamine production.

[Zapbasket]

Hmm, well, H and I are actually moving temporarily to the Bay Area in October, so if you end up visiting (or moving!) you'll 'know' at least one person there.

 

That's awesome and contributes one great point to the Bay Area! Yeah, this weekend I was looking at ticket and thinking that if I go it'll be late September / early October. I'm thinking that exploring a few prospects like this will help feed my sense of hope and possibility while enabling me to stay put during this time and get my bearings.

 

I fled from NYC for many reasons, but the main instigator was the break-up of my first, and longest relationship; I knew if I stayed there I'd hang onto hope for a reconciliation. And then I moved from the city in CO to the mountains because I got a full-time job there, but it also coincided with feeling a need to get away from the whole toxic situation of the ex and his friends. I'm loathe to "run away" again without first getting into some of these "Man-Picker" issues I need to examine.

[Zapbasket]

Most introverts need down time to refuel their social energy level. Do you know the theory about introverts v. extroverts where introverts recharge from within and extroverts recharge from external stimulation.

 

Introverts use indirect routes through their neural nets, having a greater number of dopamine receptors which cause circuitous thinking. This is why introverts can overstimulate.

 

Extroverts use a shorter path of getting dopamine hits, using environmental stimuli to trigger dopamine production.

 

That's interesting. I think I need a balance of both. I'm happiest when I can, say, have a great lunch with some really fun, stimulating friends and then, still fueled from that high, duck out on my own for a run or hike. My introversion needs to communicate with my extroversion and whenever it's only one and never the other, I start to deflate. I spend so much time by myself, and then on top of it I'm writing this book which requires me to spend my alone time really going deep in thought, and then my only outlet away from that are bike rides, hikes, the gym...and that's all alone, as well.... I feel like the solitude is driving me mad, because there's too much of it. I can't remember the last time I had a raucous belly laugh with a friend.

[Zapbasket]

I feel really confused about everything...and maybe that's why I have woken up this morning blaming myself. Because if it's my fault, I guess the logic goes, then somehow it's less "confusing." Doesn't really make sense but I'm going to go ahead anyway.

 

I know I've said before something to the effect that I must behave in some way in relationships that makes guys I'm dating frustrated with me and not wanting to commit to me. And people said that it's not like I can transform good, mature guys into bad, disrespectful, immature ones.

 

But in part because I have yet to have had a relationship go well--in addition to the endings, the relationships throughout were frustrating and filled with arguing--I feel like there must be something I'm doing that makes men miserable. I know this is a confidence-crash speaking but I feel like I must really suck with men. Even on my LS threads, it's rarely men who respond...though probably that's neither here nor there.

 

I've said throughout that with K, I didn't like how he treated me. The teasing did get better as we went on, but the distrust and general antagonism did not get better. Also, he wasn't moving forward at all--not in his own life, and not with us, or even the idea of us. At the same time, he was devoted in that he called when he said he would, wanted to do things with me, helped me when I sustained a prolonged injury earlier this year, kills spiders in my house because I'm terrified of them, etc.

 

People IRL told me that I should just ignore him when he was antagonistic. That if I gave no reaction or changed the subject, it would put him at ease and the antagonism would stop. I never was able to do that because it always would seem to come out of nowhere to ruin a perfectly good interaction otherwise. But then, if I responded with either hurt, shock, annoyance, ANYTHING, it escalated inevitably into a fight.

 

He said I was "difficult." And I wonder whether perhaps it's true, but I can't pinpoint how, exactly, I am so difficult. I'm complicated, and have deep, complicated reactions to things good and bad and I share these thoughts and reactions with people close to me, like the men I date. But I have a sense of humor, and I'm affectionate, and do thoughtful things.

 

I just do not know what is wrong. I'd love to say it's because of the men I choose; K's own MOTHER confirmed that she's seen K treat other girlfriends the same way he's treated me...and clearly that means I need to examine what in my history leads me to make the partner choices I do. BUT: because I've not had ONE good relationship with a man (except my grandfather and an older male friend who is like a combination of big brother, friend, and sidekick as he's always been stuck in his life), I can't help feeling that I drive men away somehow.

 

Well, at least I got this off my chest a bit. It's clear I'm having a real crisis of self-confidence. I do feel pretty shattered and lost . Thanks for humoring this ramble.

[sunshinegirl]

This is completely, totally, and inevitably part of the process. Meaning, the crushing self-doubt, the sinking feeling that "oh my god, I must really be broken!", and the fear that "I'm really no good for anyone, am I?" is all part of this. The great news is that these aren't actually the truth. I went through the very same stuff, GC. I promise you that you are not fundamentally broken, or lacking, or too difficult for any man. It truly and honestly boils down, I believe, to a very broken man-picker. You say that you didn't like K's behavior FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, which points to a basic incompatibility that you ignored (or hoped would change)...for years.

 

It's as though you wanted to get a kitten, and you went to the store to pick one out, and you picked out a cute, cuddly...baby tiger. At first you thought the tiger's little bites were cute. But later, you wondered why the tiger kept scratching and biting you (more and more painfully each time), even when you asked nicely for it to stop, and then you started blaming yourself and thinking it's your fault the tiger scratches and bites. And finally, when forced to get rid of the tiger because the injuries became too frequent and too painful, you convinced yourself that you are somehow the reason that your (initially) cute kitten started biting and scratching to begin with, and you will probably have that effect on every other kitten on earth, too. Silly, right? You're not meant to be with a tiger, period. Their nature and your nature don't mesh. That's it.

 

The work you have in front of you is to unpack what it is about tigers that attracts you, and then work on staying away from tigers and seeking kittens instead.

[Zapbasket]

Funny, SSG...the therapist I'm seeing (that K also is seeing) said our arguments must be like two tigers in a cage.

 

But I get what you mean!

 

It's just...here's a confusing part...even while I didn't like his irritability and negative attitude, there were so many things about him I did fundamentally like. I really miss him, which makes me even more confused. It just seems like all the fighting and the difficulties were so ridiculous and petty and that's where I feel responsible, like, did it really have to be that way?

[tbf]

I don't recall your past relationships GC but in this one, you pushed him for conclusiveness at every turn. So what he did to fend off your pressure was to dissemble. This became a power struggle between direct aggression and passive-aggressiveness.

 

In your next relationship, if conclusiveness is important to you, find a conclusive man. Look to yourself as well, remembering how you can't control a partner, only yourself. This means you can ask for something important. If they're unwilling to provide, you also have the control to walk away.

[sunshinegirl]

Funny, SSG...the therapist I'm seeing (that K also is seeing) said our arguments must be like two tigers in a cage.

 

But I get what you mean!

 

It's just...here's a confusing part...even while I didn't like his irritability and negative attitude, there were so many things about him I did fundamentally like. I really miss him, which makes me even more confused. It just seems like all the fighting and the difficulties were so ridiculous and petty and that's where I feel responsible, like, did it really have to be that way?

 

This is like saying, "I am really loving this delicious mug of tea...it's my favorite! So I can ignore the little bit of arsenic in it, right?"

 

As for the bolded, it sounds like yes, it did have to be that way, given his nature and given yours. You don't have the power to change his nature, his stripes, his fundamental way of being. And it sounds like some part of you thinks you could have, or should have.

[Zapbasket]

This is like saying, "I am really loving this delicious mug of tea...it's my favorite! So I can ignore the little bit of arsenic in it, right?"

 

As for the bolded, it sounds like yes, it did have to be that way, given his nature and given yours. You don't have the power to change his nature, his stripes, his fundamental way of being. And it sounds like some part of you thinks you could have, or should have.

 

Yes. I feel like I should have been able to inspire him to love me, to want to commit to me, to want to let go of his irritability and need to get under my skin, and if that latter bit was a challenge for him, and my anger at him for it was a challenge for him, to have him say, "This is a big difficulty but I really want to be with you; these are a few things I envision for us for the future; and I'm committed to working out this issue with you." I feel like I should have been able to inspire him to motivate himself to change his situation and build a plan for HIS future.

 

And all that happened was that he got mad at me. So while yeah, I can see that none of that has anything, really, to do with me (or such is what I'd tell a friend in my situation), I can't help that nagging feeling that says, "GC, he just didn't find you worthy enough to love you enough. And so when you backed him into a wall, he just quit. And that's your fault...not sure how, exactly, but it is."

[Zapbasket]

I don't recall your past relationships GC but in this one, you pushed him for conclusiveness at every turn. So what he did to fend off your pressure was to dissemble. This became a power struggle between direct aggression and passive-aggressiveness.

 

In your next relationship, if conclusiveness is important to you, find a conclusive man. Look to yourself as well, remembering how you can't control a partner, only yourself. This means you can ask for something important. If they're unwilling to provide, you also have the control to walk away.

 

How do you discern a conclusive man in the beginning?

 

And I want to clarify (not that I feel you, TBF, are misunderstanding, but possibly others): I was NOT and am not looking for marriage right away just for the sake of being married. I just want someone who sees that as the desirable end-goal, otherwise for them a relationship is not worth pursuing. I can't relate to the mentality of having a relationship just to have one for a while. Even at this stage with K, I wasn't asking him for a ring, but a CONVERSATION about the future, and some ACTIONS towards the goals we defined for ourselves as a couple, through that conversation. He resisted it in every way he could, even while he'd assure me each time that he "was thinking about it, and would make an effort to be the first to bring up the discussion in the future." And then he never did. Not sure he was ever even thinking about it. He had, after all, no plans for himself, even.

 

I think of myself as a smart person, but man, I am dense about this stuff. I know

[tbf]

How do you discern a conclusive man in the beginning?

One who doesn't leave you in doubt about the future since he's already emotionally committed.

 

And I want to clarify

No need to clarify, I understood.

 

Even at this stage with K, I wasn't asking him for a ring, but a CONVERSATION about the future, and some ACTIONS towards the goals we defined for ourselves as a couple, through that conversation. He resisted it in every way he could, even while he'd assure me each time that he "was thinking about it, and would make an effort to be the first to bring up the discussion in the future." And then he never did. Not sure he was ever even thinking about it. He had, after all, no plans for himself, even.

You put up with over three years worth of his dissembling. This is where the problem lies. Learn to pull the trigger sooner, instead of trying to push someone into conclusiveness.

 

This advice disregards what sg discusses about formative years and counseling. I agree with her about digging deep in a safe environment with a compatible counselor, to see why you need to prove yourself lovable.

[Zapbasket]

One who doesn't leave you in doubt about the future since he's already emotionally committed.

 

But how do you recognize that? People say they're committed, and day to day they are committed, but does that mean they're really committed to the future? Or is it that someone who is emotionally committed is going to be glad to discuss the future; it won't be threatening for them; they won't avoid it; they will initiate it often themselves?

 

You put up with over three years worth of his dissembling. This is where the problem lies. Learn to pull the trigger sooner, instead of trying to push someone into conclusiveness.

 

Well, as you probably remember, that's what my instinct told me to do all along, very early on. But then see below...

 

This advice disregards what sg discusses about formative years and counseling. I agree with her about digging deep in a safe environment with a compatible counselor, to see why you need to prove yourself lovable.

 

...[per above]: Yes, and that's the journey I think I'm on right now. Because I think I COULD pull out of a relationship like this one sooner if I didn't feel trapped in this need to somehow prove myself lovable, where my whole worth in the context of the relationship hinges on the guy committing to me.

[tbf]

But how do you recognize that? People say they're committed, and day to day they are committed, but does that mean they're really committed to the future? Or is it that someone who is emotionally committed is going to be glad to discuss the future; it won't be threatening for them; they won't avoid it; they will initiate it often themselves?

Yes. They leave you no doubt about their level of commitment.

 

Well, as you probably remember, that's what my instinct told me to do all along, very early on. But then see below...

 

...[per above]: Yes, and that's the journey I think I'm on right now. Because I think I COULD pull out of a relationship like this one sooner if I didn't feel trapped in this need to somehow prove myself lovable, where my whole worth in the context of the relationship hinges on the guy committing to me.

Now you know what needs to be addressed so you have a conclusive plan (discuss with counselor in a safe environment) of how to address it by first lifting the lid for the counselor and then, asking the counselor for tools of how to address these issues.

[Zapbasket]

I don't recall your past relationships GC but in this one, you pushed him for conclusiveness at every turn. So what he did to fend off your pressure was to dissemble. This became a power struggle between direct aggression and passive-aggressiveness.

 

I'm just thinking aloud....

 

I didn't push for conclusiveness, though, until over two years in. It was then that I decided to ask for a discussion about the future. Not even, "When are we getting married" but "What's next for us? Where do you see yourself and do you see me a part of that?" He always said, "Yes," but he couldn't say where he saw himself, or he'd come up with some pie-in-the-sky thing that sounded like a pre-teen "Maybe-one-day-I'll..." thing that would change from day to day. ANd then, the excuses: Can't talk about the future because there's acrimony in our relationship. Can't talk about the future because he has to finish his book. Can't talk about the future because he's afraid of me. Can't talk about the future because he's lost and confused in his whole life. Can't talk about the future because he has nothing to offer.

 

In the beginning, and for the first two years, I pushed for respect. And I guess that was pushing for conclusiveness to him, because his disrespect for my feelings was his way of dissembling--from our relationship and from his own feelings generally.

 

I thought I was being kind, patient, and understanding until the last months, when I simply could tolerate the morass no longer. The final straw was when my mom visited here a few weeks ago and he came over to dinner and my mom asked him why, when he'd asked her for permission to propose to me back on January 28th (they went out to breakfast together while I was in surgery), seven months later, nothing happened. And while I cleaned up the kitchen, they sat on the patio having this conversation and he told her that I didn't belong where we live; that I deserved better than this place and he was so lost and confused and just couldn't get married right now. But that he DID love me.

 

After he left, my mother came back into the house and told me I need to move on, because he's not going to do a thing to move forward with me...in the foreseeable future and possibly beyond. And against her advice I tried to hang on and after one more week, I just couldn't.

[tbf]

In the beginning, and for the first two years, I pushed for respect.

Why would you put up with disrespect for two years? In putting up with disrespect for so long where there aren't any serious consequences for his negative behaviour, what motivates him to change?

 

Consider the concept of classic conditioning. If a child has a tantrum to get attention (whether positive or negative) and they manage to get your attention, do you suppose the child will suddenly stop having tantrums or will the child continue having tantrums because it gets them what they want?

 

I suspect you're going to come back with more excuses about what happened but the net result is that you conditioned him to believe that bad behaviours don't matter since you'll stay with him if he gives you lame excuses.

 

Notice how I'm pushing you back with the word "excuses"? That's what you've been giving me and that's what he gave you.

[Zapbasket]

Why would you put up with disrespect for two years? In putting up with disrespect for so long where there aren't any serious consequences for his negative behaviour, what motivates him to change?

 

Consider the concept of classic conditioning. If a child has a tantrum to get attention (whether positive or negative) and they manage to get your attention, do you suppose the child will suddenly stop having tantrums or will the child continue having tantrums because it gets them what they want?

 

Well, then I sure taught him in the end then, huh? Because after that episode with my mom especially, I just would not tolerate one more iteration of, "I'm so lost and confused...." And finally I backed him into the wall and made him come out and say that we would be going our separate ways. And then I was done.

 

Now, if only I'd done that in the third month of the relationship when I got as far as putting on my shoes to leave after he'd barked at me over some minor thing....

 

And it makes me sad to realize that what has kept me from doing that has been a fear that if someone talks to me like that, somehow I must have caused it. Which rationally I know is complete BS. It's just that that rational part has been repeatedly overridden by this wimpy, not-self-loving part that I suspect I'm going to get to know really well in my self-work on why I chose the men I do and why I stay in relationships that simply aren't working.

 

 

I suspect you're going to come back with more excuses about what happened but the net result is that you conditioned him to believe that bad behaviours don't matter since you'll stay with him if he gives you lame excuses.

 

Notice how I'm pushing you back with the word "excuses"? That's what you've been giving me and that's what he gave you.

 

Touche.

[tbf]

And finally I backed him into the wall and made him come out and say that we would be going our separate ways. And then I was done.

Why did he need to be the person to break up?

 

Now, if only I'd done that in the third month of the relationship when I got as far as putting on my shoes to leave after he'd barked at me over some minor thing....

At three months, yes, put on your shoes, say bye and keep on walking, instead of waiting for him to break up.

 

And it makes me sad to realize that what has kept me from doing that has been a fear that if someone talks to me like that, somehow I must have caused it. Which rationally I know is complete BS. It's just that that rational part has been repeatedly overridden by this wimpy, not-self-loving part that I suspect I'm going to get to know really well in my self-work on why I chose the men I do and why I stay in relationships that simply aren't working.

Agreed. Lots to sift through and revamp.

[Zapbasket]

Why did he need to be the person to break up?

 

I think because I was still, to the very end, caught in the "If only's." If only he were more respectful, this relationship would be great. If only he weren't so stuck and lost and confused, things would go more as I'd hoped. Etc. It took me backing him into the wall and forcing him to a definitive decision THAT MOMENT to break out of the trap. Had I not done that, he wasn't going to end it. He even had tried to have sex with me minutes before. (I refused.) We had planned a hike for later that weekend and I was at his place so we could go over the maps together. He didn't even bring up anything; I did. It all went down exactly in line with the rest of his behavior on this aspect of the relationship.

 

I had to bring the spell to an end and forcing him to the first decision that came to his mine was the only way I felt I'd finally, fully be able to break away.

 

It's some allure to fixer-upperness, to "potential," that I seem to have, even while the waiting involved creates a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance within me. I need to learn how to break the spell of the fixer-upper project before I even sign on to the project. That I am seeing more and more clearly.

[Zapbasket]

Such is the bruised, fragile ego: I wrote the above, full of spirited, "Yeah, I did what I felt I had to do! I drove it to where I knew it was going to go! I was in control, in the end; I turned things around and did what I needed to do!"

 

And then the thought occurred to me: what if, in K's mind, HE broke up with ME? And then instantly I feel really small and mushed. "He didn't want you," I think. "He never did. Or, he thought he did and then as soon as some semblance of a plan crystallized in him, he saw fit to have done with me. But he was glad to drag it out in hopes that I would end things. And so when I asked him point-blank, 'So are we going our separate ways?', he said, 'I think so.' Not even then could he give a clear yes or no.

 

And I wonder, if he thinks HE broke up with ME, is that why I haven't heard from his mom? Or has he not told them yet because he knows they'll be disappointed if not surprised? Usually she's calling me as soon as she has an inkling anything is amiss between her son and me. Now, nothing...yet. I know she was out of town until Monday, so maybe he hasn't told her yet.

 

I think in good enough time I won't care so much. But my ego is tissue-thin right now, with occasional bursts of strength.

 

This rollercoaster of bad relationship just SUCKS.

[sunshinegirl]

Such is the bruised, fragile ego: I wrote the above, full of spirited, "Yeah, I did what I felt I had to do! I drove it to where I knew it was going to go! I was in control, in the end; I turned things around and did what I needed to do!"

 

And then the thought occurred to me: what if, in K's mind, HE broke up with ME? And then instantly I feel really small and mushed. "He didn't want you," I think. "He never did. Or, he thought he did and then as soon as some semblance of a plan crystallized in him, he saw fit to have done with me. But he was glad to drag it out in hopes that I would end things. And so when I asked him point-blank, 'So are we going our separate ways?', he said, 'I think so.' Not even then could he give a clear yes or no.

 

And I wonder, if he thinks HE broke up with ME, is that why I haven't heard from his mom? Or has he not told them yet because he knows they'll be disappointed if not surprised? Usually she's calling me as soon as she has an inkling anything is amiss between her son and me. Now, nothing...yet. I know she was out of town until Monday, so maybe he hasn't told her yet.

 

I think in good enough time I won't care so much. But my ego is tissue-thin right now, with occasional bursts of strength.

 

This rollercoaster of bad relationship just SUCKS.

 

Yeahhhh, this is just kind of the crud you have to get through. Eventually you won't care whether he was done with you, or you were done with him, or any of that. You'll just be glad it's over.

 

All I can say is, don't act on the stuff you're churning through. I.e. don't contact his mother.

[Zapbasket]

All I can say is, don't act on the stuff you're churning through. I.e. don't contact his mother.

 

No, I have no intention of doing that. It's her place to reach out to me and I'd be very surprised, based on her past behavior, if she didn't. If she doesn't the hurt will be unimaginable. But it will be what it will be.

 

God, I'm feeling sick just thinking of it. All I know is that the acknowledged to me in spades back in June how her son might contribute to making a relationship difficult. She told me how she saw it with previous girlfriends of his. If nothing else, there was that. My stomach is churning.

[Zapbasket]

Uggghhhh. The therapist I'm seeing is also seeing K. This was because initially we thought we might end up going for some couples counseling, and this therapist wanted a period of seeing us both individually before seeing us as a couple. Now that couples counseling is moot, I do not want to switch therapists because there are not a lot of good mental practitioners here and he is many cuts above; we've build up a solid rapport over ten sessions and I think I could accomplish some meaningful work with him.

 

But: I shared with him a history of the relationship along the lines of what I've shared here in my threads about my frustrations with K and the gnawing instinct, over three years, that things weren't right. And...

 

...after all that, the therapist, in summing up what he feels are the kinds of men I go for, differentiated K from the group and said that unlike the narcissistic ex-boyfriend for whom I moved out west, K was "an innocent a*shole." And I was like, "Huh????"

 

It was the end of the session and so I didn't get to address it with him. But I'm still bothered that he could hear all the things I've said to you guys and opine that K is "innocent." What I see is highly, highly passive-aggressive, and there's no way there is not some awareness on the highly passive-aggressive person's part of what they're doing. I KNOW K. knew at least subconsciously what he was doing; he said early on, "It's easy to get under your skin.... Whenever I see that it's easy to get under someone's skin, it just eggs me on more."

 

I see a pattern where I tend to pick very subtly manipulative, passive-aggressive partners, and their passivity drives me nuts and I end up allowing myself to get pulled into the push-pull cycle rather than walking away. I want to explore that, but I'm awfully concerned that this therapist could ascribe innocence to K's actions. It makes me wonder whether K is even more manipulative than I thought, getting everyone to make exceptions for him so that he never has to take responsibility for a thing in his life. ANd now, this therapist, too.

 

I feel like I should address this in my next therapy session, but I'm not sure how best to state the issue. I feel like, if I say nothing, then I won't be able to work with him on how better to respond to passive-aggression in the future. What do other people think?

[sunshinegirl]

Uggghhhh. The therapist I'm seeing is also seeing K. This was because initially we thought we might end up going for some couples counseling, and this therapist wanted a period of seeing us both individually before seeing us as a couple. Now that couples counseling is moot, I do not want to switch therapists because there are not a lot of good mental practitioners here and he is many cuts above; we've build up a solid rapport over ten sessions and I think I could accomplish some meaningful work with him.

 

But: I shared with him a history of the relationship along the lines of what I've shared here in my threads about my frustrations with K and the gnawing instinct, over three years, that things weren't right. And...

 

...after all that, the therapist, in summing up what he feels are the kinds of men I go for, differentiated K from the group and said that unlike the narcissistic ex-boyfriend for whom I moved out west, K was "an innocent a*shole." And I was like, "Huh????"

 

It was the end of the session and so I didn't get to address it with him. But I'm still bothered that he could hear all the things I've said to you guys and opine that K is "innocent." What I see is highly, highly passive-aggressive, and there's no way there is not some awareness on the highly passive-aggressive person's part of what they're doing. I KNOW K. knew at least subconsciously what he was doing; he said early on, "It's easy to get under your skin.... Whenever I see that it's easy to get under someone's skin, it just eggs me on more."

 

I see a pattern where I tend to pick very subtly manipulative, passive-aggressive partners, and their passivity drives me nuts and I end up allowing myself to get pulled into the push-pull cycle rather than walking away. I want to explore that, but I'm awfully concerned that this therapist could ascribe innocence to K's actions. It makes me wonder whether K is even more manipulative than I thought, getting everyone to make exceptions for him so that he never has to take responsibility for a thing in his life. ANd now, this therapist, too.

 

I feel like I should address this in my next therapy session, but I'm not sure how best to state the issue. I feel like, if I say nothing, then I won't be able to work with him on how better to respond to passive-aggression in the future. What do other people think?

 

I think that holding this therapist up as being "a cut above" and then doubting his professionalism at a pretty profound level seems like a contradiction. Your therapist has more distance from the situation and he surely knows that he must avoid even the appearance of breaking confidences or showing bias. Do you think otherwise?

 

IMO, I think his use of the word "innocent" is more benign than you may think. I take it to mean that K probably never *intended* to be hurtful - even his admitting he likes to get under your skin doesn't inevitably mean he was actually trying to hurt you - and so in that sense he may be "innocent." But don't forget that the therapist also paired it with "*******" which suggests to me that he's not letting his crappy behavior off the hook.

 

Come to think of it, with benefit of hindsight, "innocent *******" pretty perfectly describes two of my exes, even though they hurt me profoundly, and left a bloody trail of damage in their respective wakes. That's what having perspective and distance will do for you -- you can see former tormenters (per se) in a more generous light. Right now you don't have perspective or distance; your therapist does.

 

If it is still bothering you at your next session, I see nothing wrong with asking him to clarify what he meant by it.