Nice Guys Finish Last?

[M30USA]

No offense to the girls, but the nice guys don't need these types, they haven't matured ...and "I HATE seeing nice guys hurt".

Me too....at first the strengths of nice guys are considered weaksnesses by these types but as they mature they begin to consider it otherwise.You know what,no offence to these guys, most bad guys are unsuccessfull people.

 

I don't think it's entirely true that most bad guys are unsuccessful people (financially). I once read an article which argued that certain negative behavior traits such as narcissism and bullying are actually beneficial in the business world.

[The Introvert]

Well, I think degree of "niceness" differs from one person to another, for instance one nice guy will say No Sex Before Marriage and the other nice guy takes that lightly and goes on to have safe sex.Nice guys can finish first too depending on how society is perceiving them.Girls may go for the bad boys cause a relationship with a bad boy is said to be full of adventure and thrilling unlike the "uneventful" one with a nice guy which is usually on the spot light because of unconformity.

[TheFinalWord]

I don't think it's entirely true that most bad guys are unsuccessful people (financially). I once read an article which argued that certain negative behavior traits such as narcissism and bullying are actually beneficial in the business world.

 

A lot of this changed with Stephen Covey and Zig Ziglar (RIP to both).

 

But I agree, and have found it has slipped back again from the character ethic to the personality ethic since the recession. Organizational politics seem to be getting nastier and more "cut throat".

 

Stephen Covey explaining the charactor ethic and the personality ethic - YouTube

[TheFinalWord]

Well with that bad boy/girl thing, there is the emotional uncertainty that some men and women really are attracted to. And like we discussed in another thread "project men" tend to be perceived as bad boys..."oh I'm going to change him!" lol

 

If a guy sincerely could care less, it triggers women with emotional insecurity. Usually the guys that care less are perceived as confident. But the typical bad boy "not caring about someone" attitude is not really a display of confidence, it's selfishness, but it comes across as confident in the dating world. Selfish people don't usually make the best long-term partners, which is why the "bad boy" relationships don't tend to last a long time.

[pureinheart]

Well, I think degree of "niceness" differs from one person to another, for instance one nice guy will say No Sex Before Marriage and the other nice guy takes that lightly and goes on to have safe sex.Nice guys can finish first too depending on how society is perceiving them.Girls may go for the bad boys cause a relationship with a bad boy is said to be full of adventure and thrilling unlike the "uneventful" one with a nice guy which is usually on the spot light because of unconformity.

 

LOL love, I'll take "uneventful" any day of the week. IME, thinking only two true to form bad boys caught me...may they RIP ...just kidding

 

Typically a real "bad boy" is:

 

Full of themselves (narcissistic as M30 stated)

Emotionally unavailable

A committment phobe

Emotionally and/or physically abusive

Manipulative

A player

 

and has the ability to twist ones mind into a complete pretzel, not to mention the truth and ones perception of reality. They can make you feel like you are nuts...nothing is ever their fault- basically gas lighting. Oh and they like to dangle carrots also.

 

This is from my own experience, so as you can see nice guys work for me.

 

If anyone wants the ride of their life to the grave, get into a relationship with this type.

 

I could seriously write a book.

[pureinheart]

Well with that bad boy/girl thing, there is the emotional uncertainty that some men and women really are attracted to. And like we discussed in another thread "project men" tend to be perceived as bad boys..."oh I'm going to change him!" lol

 

If a guy sincerely could care less, it triggers women with emotional insecurity. Usually the guys that care less are perceived as confident. But the typical bad boy "not caring about someone" attitude is not really a display of confidence, it's selfishness, but it comes across as confident in the dating world. Selfish people don't usually make the best long-term partners, which is why the "bad boy" relationships don't tend to last a long time.

 

Yep, and the bad boy can see this a mile away.

 

TFW, the sad thing is they are the most insecure on this planet and aren't right in the head either. Get this- my first experience with this type was so emotionally abusive it wasn't funny. It was from work. Everybody tried to talk sense into me, as I had a lot of close friends at work. They were all sickened by this.

 

Anyway, we had completed a mod for one of the vehicles and the NASA people were having a big party- I wanted to go soooo bad, and had wondered why my "bf" didn't invite me...we were kind of on the outs, but nothing had been made clear yet. This was a major event mind you.

 

So I decided to go alone. In the meantime one of my dear friends came over and said he wanted to take me to another work party...he was extremely insistant... I said no, let's go to the other party. He would not budge, so I said ok fine...lol I have a picture that he took of me and talk about a tude.

 

When we got to the other party, everyone got silent, you could hear a pin drop- I thought shoot, did I forget to take a shower or something???? I asked my friend why everyone was acting weird and he said PIH, your "bf" is at the NASA party with someone else. He then began to tell me the entire sorted story about how my "bf" had been seeing her all along.

 

I was about to walk into the most embarrassing situation of my life- I do have a lot of good, caring friends:D

 

Ok, then I get a call from "plastic man" (that's what I referred to his as) a few months later apologizing telling me this story of how he was wrong and stuff...and then procedes to tell me that he wanted to treat me horribly to see how it felt to do that to someone.

 

^^^^^^ this my beloved friends is the true mentality of a "bad boy".

[pureinheart]

No offense to the girls, but the nice guys don't need these types, they haven't matured ...and "I HATE seeing nice guys hurt".

Me too....at first the strengths of nice guys are considered weaksnesses by these types but as they mature they begin to consider it otherwise.You know what,no offence to these guys, most bad guys are unsuccessfull people.

 

I don't think it's entirely true that most bad guys are unsuccessful people (financially). I once read an article which argued that certain negative behavior traits such as narcissism and bullying are actually beneficial in the business world.

 

I agree in the sense that they are unsuccessful in everything that is good and right, although love, both experiences of bad guys were successful financially and in their careers...same with the ones I knew of.

 

This is what can be so deceiving. One would expect them to be the type that need sugar mama's, but IME, they wined and dined me quite a bit, giving the illusion of being serious.

 

I want to add M30, in the political arena as well.

[Eve]

Yep, and the bad boy can see this a mile away.

 

TFW, the sad thing is they are the most insecure on this planet and aren't right in the head either. Get this- my first experience with this type was so emotionally abusive it wasn't funny. It was from work. Everybody tried to talk sense into me, as I had a lot of close friends at work. They were all sickened by this.

 

Anyway, we had completed a mod for one of the vehicles and the NASA people were having a big party- I wanted to go soooo bad, and had wondered why my "bf" didn't invite me...we were kind of on the outs, but nothing had been made clear yet. This was a major event mind you.

 

So I decided to go alone. In the meantime one of my dear friends came over and said he wanted to take me to another work party...he was extremely insistant... I said no, let's go to the other party. He would not budge, so I said ok fine...lol I have a picture that he took of me and talk about a tude.

 

When we got to the other party, everyone got silent, you could hear a pin drop- I thought shoot, did I forget to take a shower or something???? I asked my friend why everyone was acting weird and he said PIH, your "bf" is at the NASA party with someone else. He then began to tell me the entire sorted story about how my "bf" had been seeing her all along.

 

I was about to walk into the most embarrassing situation of my life- I do have a lot of good, caring friends:D

 

Ok, then I get a call from "plastic man" (that's what I referred to his as) a few months later apologizing telling me this story of how he was wrong and stuff...and then procedes to tell me that he wanted to treat me horribly to see how it felt to do that to someone.

 

^^^^^^ this my beloved friends is the true mentality of a "bad boy".

 

Thanks for sharing this. As horrible as it is, it speaks volumes.

 

My ex was a nice person initially but thought he had to be a 'bad man' to fit in with his stupid male friends. Men groom men to be as such. The strong ones stay true to themselves.

 

Nah, the bad boy thing is basically linked to the subjugation of women.

 

Never listen to a bad boy and you will be ok, I say... but it can be a very unpleasant experience indeed.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[TheFinalWord]

Ok, then I get a call from "plastic man" (that's what I referred to his as) a few months later apologizing telling me this story of how he was wrong and stuff...and then procedes to tell me that he wanted to treat me horribly to see how it felt to do that to someone.

 

Wow, that is psycho

 

Don't feel bad PIH, I think we have all been the victim of selfish daters. I've had one or two myself.

[therhythm]

Can anyone define good guy and bad guy... I still don't know where I belong

[pureinheart]

Thanks for sharing this. As horrible as it is, it speaks volumes.

 

My ex was a nice person initially but thought he had to be a 'bad man' to fit in with his stupid male friends. Men groom men to be as such. The strong ones stay true to themselves.

 

Nah, the bad boy thing is basically linked to the subjugation of women.

 

Never listen to a bad boy and you will be ok, I say... but it can be a very unpleasant experience indeed.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

Thank you Eve:love:

 

Yes, this guy too fell under the peer pressure thing, but took it way too far as none of his peers respected him because of it- so the fix would be to clean up public appearance. He did this with me.

 

After getting called back to work, the minute I walked through that hanger door, he began a search concerning public opinion. All inquiries fit what he was looking for.

 

He wanted to be accepted in a possitive way and his peers were very impressed. He was into flashy, high maintinence women of which I am not.

 

He was Christian too and desired to get right with God- I was his way of doing that.

 

Eve, I remember one time being at his condo, his sister was in town (this is another reason I fit the bill, he wanted to clean up his image with his family), I went upstairs to pray for his sister. He went upstairs to check on me- he said he literally could not get through the door, and felt angels guarding the entry way. At this point thinking he realised that God was quite aware of his game. It was shortly after this that he began to change big time.

 

To this day he is seeking the lust of the flesh.

 

We tried to reconcile a few times, but he doesn't like the person I am now. A person with their own mind is not very attractive to some:)

[M30USA]

Nice guys finish last. And so do "unattractive" girls. They are corresponding traits that, in general, make each sex finish last. Obviously there are exceptions. Usually the exceptions require a very mature person of the opposite sex.

[Eve]

Thank you Eve:love:

 

Yes, this guy too fell under the peer pressure thing, but took it way too far as none of his peers respected him because of it- so the fix would be to clean up public appearance. He did this with me.

 

After getting called back to work, the minute I walked through that hanger door, he began a search concerning public opinion. All inquiries fit what he was looking for.

 

He wanted to be accepted in a possitive way and his peers were very impressed. He was into flashy, high maintinence women of which I am not.

 

He was Christian too and desired to get right with God- I was his way of doing that.

 

Eve, I remember one time being at his condo, his sister was in town (this is another reason I fit the bill, he wanted to clean up his image with his family), I went upstairs to pray for his sister. He went upstairs to check on me- he said he literally could not get through the door, and felt angels guarding the entry way. At this point thinking he realised that God was quite aware of his game. It was shortly after this that he began to change big time.

 

To this day he is seeking the lust of the flesh.

 

We tried to reconcile a few times, but he doesn't like the person I am now. A person with their own mind is not very attractive to some:)

 

I have to be very careful with this topic as it can be a major trigger for me. I'll be calling for a culling of the male species if I am not careful, lol.

 

I didn't have such a positive outcome as you were able to gravitate the situation towards. Cool story though. I do love you.

 

To this day my ex will tell you he is a 'good guy'.

 

He is lucky I didn't own a gun, lol. I wouldn't have been aiming to maim..

 

I remember he used to refer to me as, 'girls like you' all the time at the end of things, like I was a non person. Idiot. Thank goodness I have a number of brothers who don't play.

 

This and other more serious experiences I have encountered which have been perpetrated by men is why I use the username Eve. As in Genesis, men can often blame women for their own errors. I think it is because they are often detached from the order in which God made us and so they try and treat us like we have to be their everything. **** that. So, IDK, the good guy, bad guy thing can basically mean the same thing to some characters as long as they can try to control the responses of a woman.

 

Putting my sensible head on, women can behave in similar ways but I am not sure how to categorise that though.

 

.. but nice guys, in terms of a man who has enough sense to make sure he can live with himself and follow peace foremostly do not come last in my eyes. They are the only ones I associate with on a personal level.

 

My youngest daughter is now an expert on spotting who is who. I have made sure of it, lol.

 

*Eve decides to play some 80's tracks to chill out*

 

Take care,

Eve x

Edited June 14, 2013 by Eve

[pureinheart]

Wow, that is psycho

 

Don't feel bad PIH, I think we have all been the victim of selfish daters. I've had one or two myself.

 

Thanks to you and The Introvert, this was able to surface. TI's thread led to this, then your post and bammmm. Didn't realise how bad this affected me:)

 

Please love, do not take this the wrong way. His intelligence level, and the ability to communicate, writing style, and knowledge of the Word is identical to yours.

 

The defining difference is the heart- the inability for understanding in matters of the heart- compassion. Pride, hypocricy and arrogance are too much apart of him...which would lead me to a question Therhythm asked:

 

I would say the bad boy is prideful, hypocritical and arrogant- the good guy is not. Yes on some levels we all deal with these things, but the bad guy is over the top...which leads to this rant:

 

A good example of what I'm speaking of- it was ridiculous for me to believe that this particular person would overcome these things, so therefore, the eternal optimist in me kept hoping. About three years ago we tried to reconcile, he wanted to get married. I was going through a bad time, a real bad time and was unable to be at his beck and call.

 

Yes I was doing some unusual things and behaving in an unusual manor and every night for 3 weeks drank 5 beers everynight beginning at 8pm until the 5 beers were gone. Calling my daughter at all hours of the night leaving unending messages of encouragement- they were quite humorous actually, she saved some of them...lol...that was my way of dealing..k..

 

Sometimes I didn't answers his calls, which I might add were of HIS convenience. Instead of asking if I was ok, he'd go on and on about some chick that he was working for. Quite frankly, I didn't want to hear it sometimes.

 

So then he tells me...you're different, you've changed...can't remember my response, but knowing me today it was along the lines of bite me, but respectfully of course:D

 

You see, I was there for him during the most worst of times and behavior...guaranteed my behavior didn't come close to his "worst", but regardless he could not be there for me. Not a good match IMO.

 

Thank you for the rant and yet another healing:D

 

Oh and another distinct trait of a "bad boy", they use their perceived targets as garbage dumps. Both of them used to spend HOURS bitching, moaning and complaining about situations in their lives spewing SERIOUS hate and anger. The Bible teaches to avoid this type like the plague.

[therhythm]

Thanks to you and The Introvert, this was able to surface. TI's thread led to this, then your post and bammmm. Didn't realise how bad this affected me:)

 

Please love, do not take this the wrong way. His intelligence level, and the ability to communicate, writing style, and knowledge of the Word is identical to yours.

 

The defining difference is the heart- the inability for understanding in matters of the heart- compassion. Pride, hypocricy and arrogance are too much apart of him...which would lead me to a question Therhythm asked:

 

I would say the bad boy is prideful, hypocritical and arrogant- the good guy is not. Yes on some levels we all deal with these things, but the bad guy is over the top...which leads to this rant:

 

A good example of what I'm speaking of- it was ridiculous for me to believe that this particular person would overcome these things, so therefore, the eternal optimist in me kept hoping. About three years ago we tried to reconcile, he wanted to get married. I was going through a bad time, a real bad time and was unable to be at his beck and call.

 

Yes I was doing some unusual things and behaving in an unusual manor and every night for 3 weeks drank 5 beers everynight beginning at 8pm until the 5 beers were gone. Calling my daughter at all hours of the night leaving unending messages of encouragement- they were quite humorous actually, she saved some of them...lol...that was my way of dealing..k..

 

Sometimes I didn't answers his calls, which I might add were of HIS convenience. Instead of asking if I was ok, he'd go on and on about some chick that he was working for. Quite frankly, I didn't want to hear it sometimes.

 

So then he tells me...you're different, you've changed...can't remember my response, but knowing me today it was along the lines of bite me, but respectfully of course:D

 

You see, I was there for him during the most worst of times and behavior...guaranteed my behavior didn't come close to his "worst", but regardless he could not be there for me. Not a good match IMO.

 

Thank you for the rant and yet another healing:D

 

Oh and another distinct trait of a "bad boy", they use their perceived targets as garbage dumps. Both of them used to spend HOURS bitching, moaning and complaining about situations in their lives spewing SERIOUS hate and anger. The Bible teaches to avoid this type like the plague.

 

Thank you for the answer, where do you draw the line that separate the self confidence with the arrogance, the self esteem with the pride and the capacity to adjust to situations with the hypocrisy? I am afraid those concepts are being mixed too often when making the bad boy and good boy assumptions...

[pureinheart]

TFW and Eve,

 

(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) I am so sorry you both had similar experiences too, I suppose many have.

 

I'm so glad we can be here for each other, because that's what it's all about:love:

[pureinheart]

Thank you for the answer, where do you draw the line that separate the self confidence with the arrogance, the self esteem with the pride and the capacity to adjust to situations with the hypocrisy? I am afraid those concepts are being mixed too often when making the bad boy and good boy assumptions...

 

Good question:)

 

After being in many relationships there were only two that fit this profile. I think being objective is important. The best answer I can give is the bad boy/girl would be on more of a narcissistic nature.

 

What is Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

 

Also it would be consistant behavior IMO, as we all deal with personality defects. I don't like labeling people, and it took many years to come to these conclusions.

[M30USA]

Now here's the real question:

 

How many of US are referred to by our exes as selfish and narcissistic? Just foood for thought.

Edited June 15, 2013 by M30USA

[carhill]

Haters will hate and every perspective is a choice.

[pureinheart]

Now here's the real question:

 

How many of US are referred to by our exes as selfish and narcissistic? Just foood for thought.

 

LOL M30, this is food for thought! Being the perverbial "bad guy" ahaha, I'd say quite a few.

 

I never made any assumptions of their behavior at first, needing time to think and weight all of the "data". Rumors from family and friends indicate that I was the bad guy- funny I didn't say a word because had the REAL truth been told, they would have looked really bad. It just seemed fruitless to put our business out to family and friends, hey, I make a good bad guy anyway. I'm thinking you do too M30?

 

The truth did eventually surface, although what I learned is most believe what they want to anyway. Felt my real friends and family would not take sides, the ones that did- good riddance:). In two cases we both were at fault.

[pureinheart]

Haters will hate and every perspective is a choice.

 

LOL, tell the truth CH!

[therhythm]

Good question:)

 

After being in many relationships there were only two that fit this profile. I think being objective is important. The best answer I can give is the bad boy/girl would be on more of a narcissistic nature.

 

What is Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

 

Also it would be consistant behavior IMO, as we all deal with personality defects. I don't like labeling people, and it took many years to come to these conclusions.

 

Thank you again for your answer although I don't know if I agree with it. If these people have a disorder doesn't it makes them automatically not bad? having a condition they can't chose the way they behave, right?

Edited June 15, 2013 by therhythm

[M30USA]

Thank you again for your answer although I don't know if I agree with it. If these people have a disorder doesn't it makes them automatically not bad? having a condition they can't chose the way they behave, right?

 

Society today doesn't like to call people selfish or just plain old wicked. Instead it has "personality disorders" like narcissism, etc. Instead of holding people accountable by saying it's their choice, we pin it on the condition or the chemical imbalance. I recall reading an interesting article by a PhD on the subject of borderline personality disorder. His general take on the issue wasn't very sympathetic, since he realized the people with BPD seem to be able to "turn it on or off" at will and whenever they want.

[NYC-BigKat]

Excuse me?

 

"Nice guys" don't have to finish anything, they START anything that's good in this life.

 

I've heard this statement from more guys than I care to think about, and am usually speechless when it is spoken, kind of like a shock when hearing it.

 

Seriously, why would a truly nice guy buy into this lie right out of the pit of hell, but some do, if not many. Who coined this ridiculous phrase anyway? A "bad guy":rolleyes:

 

Hey to all of you "nice guys" out there, in my neck of the woods online and off, the ladies I know won't touch a "bad boy" with gloves on, ten foot pole or any other safety device you can think of. We avoid them like the plague.

 

Here, bad boys are shunned, considered poison. Is this not true else where?

 

I guess if he's a nice guy he has to be really really fun u know & not boring like a lot of nice guys are.

[pie2]

If these people have a disorder doesn't it makes them automatically not bad? having a condition they can't chose the way they behave, right?

 

A "personality disorder" is a label for a set of behaviors. It says nothing about a person's ability to control their behaviors, or not.

 

Some people are able to overcome a personality disorder with therapy. The therapeutic interventions that work are able to teach people to choose better behaviors.

 

I think people can choose how they behave, even with many other mental health diagnoses. It's a matter of learning how to behave more effectively, as they haven't learned up to this point, for whatever reason. This isn't true for all mental health diagnoses, but many, imo.

 

Saying that someone "isn't bad" because they've been given a diagnosis is a strange concept, I think. Charles Manson has a disorder, but he is certainly bad enough to warrant life in prison. Granted, some people have disorders (i.e. extreme schizophrenia), and have little control over what they do. But they still have "bad" or antisocial behavior, imo.