Nice Guys Finish Last?

[TheFinalWord]

TFW and Eve,

 

(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) I am so sorry you both had similar experiences too, I suppose many have.

 

I'm so glad we can be here for each other, because that's what it's all about:love:

 

Thanks PIH. Those kinds of "relationships" can teach one a lot about themselves; that's what I decided to focus on. How can I prevent it from happening again? I found that a lot of times I used a passive communication style in these relationships. This goes in line with what the rhythm said, so I will post it there too

 

Thank you for the answer, where do you draw the line that separate the self confidence with the arrogance, the self esteem with the pride and the capacity to adjust to situations with the hypocrisy? I am afraid those concepts are being mixed too often when making the bad boy and good boy assumptions...

 

By their fruit. A confident person's fruit will produce in the life of others. An arrogant person's fruit will only produce in their own life (often at the expense of others).

 

There are three basic communication styles:

 

Passive communication can result in manipulation of the person and the inability to say “no”. What you will find is men with this style end up becoming a woman's manservant or butler, i.e. whipped. This is typically the communication style "nice guys" use.

 

• In this style opinions, feelings, and wants are withheld altogether or expressed indirectly and only in part.
  
• Permitting others to take advantage of you by violating your rights.
  
• Thinking that you and your needs are inferior to others and their needs.
  

Aggressive communication can result in anger and drama. This is usually the communication style "bad boys" use.

 

• In this style opinions, feelings, and wants are honestly stated, but at the expense of someone else’s feelings.
  
• Achieving one's goals by not allowing others the freedom to choose.
  
• Disrespecting others whether it is in an active or passive manner.
  
• Inappropriately expressing your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs in a way that violates other people’s rights.
  

Assertiveness style: Clearly state one’s opinions, feelings, and wants without violating the rights of others. This is the style that confident men and women use, to express themselves in a way that considers the rights and feelings of others.

 

• An honest, direct, and appropriate expression of one's feelings, thoughts, and beliefs.
  
• Respect for yourself and others.
  
• Honestly expressing your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.
  
• Effectively influencing, listening, and negotiating with others.
  
• Prevents manipulation and the responsibility of fulfilling excessive requests from others
  
• A polite but assertive 'no' to excessive requests from others (or a person you are dating) will enable you to avoid overloading your schedule and promote balance in your life.
  
• As we become more assertive we begin to lay claim to our right to relax, de-load, and take better care of ourselves.
  
• Assertive communication can also help you handle difficult family, friends and co-workers more easily, reducing drama and stress.
  

•What keeps people from using assertive communication?

 

--Fear of change.

--Fear of ruining relationships if you speak your mind.

--Lack confidence in your abilities.

 

Assertiveness is a communication skill that can be learned.

Edited June 17, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

Thank you again for your answer although I don't know if I agree with it. If these people have a disorder doesn't it makes them automatically not bad? having a condition they can't chose the way they behave, right?

 

Awww, you are so polite and definitely know how "to say it right":), that's so cool.

 

My personal opinion is that we are all responsible for our actions. There's just too much info out there, too many "good" examples of correct behavior should an individual choose to look for them, choose to change themselves and such.

 

Nope, I don't see it as a free pass to treat others in an unbecoming manor. The link was meant to be more of a tool illustrate incorrect behavior.

 

A few years ago I was clueless, and in the early years of the internet, came across a description of "Emotional Abuse" and wow, there I was, meaning it was happening to me- that was the beginning of understanding.

 

You know, to some degree, we all have selfish tendancies, and are self-centered, which if one looks at bad traits, we can find ourselves in various descriptions. So thankfully didn't label everyone or every bad behavior as emotionally abusive.

[pureinheart]

Thanks PIH. Those kinds of "relationships" can teach one a lot about themselves; that's what I decided to focus on. How can I prevent it from happening again? I found that a lot of times I used a passive communication style in these relationships. This goes in line with what the rhythm said, so I will post it there too

 

 

 

By their fruit. A confident person's fruit will produce in the life of others. An arrogant person's fruit will only produce in their own life (often at the expense of others).

 

There are three basic communication styles:

 

Passive communication can result in manipulation of the person and the inability to say “no”. What you will find is men with this style end up becoming a woman's manservant or butler, i.e. whipped. This is typically the communication style "nice guys" use.

 

• In this style opinions, feelings, and wants are withheld altogether or expressed indirectly and only in part.
  
• Permitting others to take advantage of you by violating your rights.
  
• Thinking that you and your needs are inferior to others and their needs.
  

Aggressive communication can result in anger and drama. This is usually the communication style "bad boys" use.

 

• In this style opinions, feelings, and wants are honestly stated, but at the expense of someone else’s feelings.
  
• Achieving one's goals by not allowing others the freedom to choose.
  
• Disrespecting others whether it is in an active or passive manner.
  
• Inappropriately expressing your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs in a way that violates other people’s rights.
  

Assertiveness style: Clearly state one’s opinions, feelings, and wants without violating the rights of others. This is the style that confident men and women use, to express themselves in a way that considers the rights and feelings of others.

 

 

• An honest, direct, and appropriate expression of one's feelings, thoughts, and beliefs.
  
• Respect for yourself and others.
  
• Honestly expressing your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.
  
• Effectively influencing, listening, and negotiating with others.
  
• Prevents manipulation and the responsibility of fulfilling excessive requests from others
  
• A polite but assertive 'no' to excessive requests from others (or a person you are dating) will enable you to avoid overloading your schedule and promote balance in your life.
  
• As we become more assertive we begin to lay claim to our right to relax, de-load, and take better care of ourselves.
  
• Assertive communication can also help you handle difficult family, friends and co-workers more easily, reducing drama and stress.
  

 

•What keeps people from using assertive communication?

 

 

 

 

--Fear of change.

 

 

--Fear of ruining relationships if you speak your mind.

 

 

--Lack confidence in your abilities.

 

 

 

 

Assertiveness is a communication skill that can be learned.

 

 

This is powerful TFW and can be used in all sorts of communications. It can be used as a tool to refine ones abilities to "say it right". I think respect is important.

 

Disrespectful assertive communication "sells". It's perceived to be "powerful". I think it is weak, showing a lack of self control.

 

Again, I think every person in this world has crossed this line, yet when seeing it as a part of ones personality, then there are definitely skills that need to be learned.

 

TFW, I was blown away to see books that teach ineffective communication skills...wow

[therhythm]

 

By their fruit. A confident person's fruit will produce in the life of others. An arrogant person's fruit will only produce in their own life (often at the expense of others).

 

There are three basic communication styles:

 

Passive communication can result in manipulation of the person and the inability to say “no”. What you will find is men with this style end up becoming a woman's manservant or butler, i.e. whipped. This is typically the communication style "nice guys" use.

 

• In this style opinions, feelings, and wants are withheld altogether or expressed indirectly and only in part.
  
• Permitting others to take advantage of you by violating your rights.
  
• Thinking that you and your needs are inferior to others and their needs.
  

Aggressive communication can result in anger and drama. This is usually the communication style "bad boys" use.

 

• In this style opinions, feelings, and wants are honestly stated, but at the expense of someone else’s feelings.
  
• Achieving one's goals by not allowing others the freedom to choose.
  
• Disrespecting others whether it is in an active or passive manner.
  
• Inappropriately expressing your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs in a way that violates other people’s rights.
  

Assertiveness style: Clearly state one’s opinions, feelings, and wants without violating the rights of others. This is the style that confident men and women use, to express themselves in a way that considers the rights and feelings of others.

 

• An honest, direct, and appropriate expression of one's feelings, thoughts, and beliefs.
  
• Respect for yourself and others.
  
• Honestly expressing your thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.
  
• Effectively influencing, listening, and negotiating with others.
  
• Prevents manipulation and the responsibility of fulfilling excessive requests from others
  
• A polite but assertive 'no' to excessive requests from others (or a person you are dating) will enable you to avoid overloading your schedule and promote balance in your life.
  
• As we become more assertive we begin to lay claim to our right to relax, de-load, and take better care of ourselves.
  
• Assertive communication can also help you handle difficult family, friends and co-workers more easily, reducing drama and stress.
  

•What keeps people from using assertive communication?

 

--Fear of change.

--Fear of ruining relationships if you speak your mind.

--Lack confidence in your abilities.

 

Assertiveness is a communication skill that can be learned.

 

 

Thank you very much TheFinalWord, that was instructive!

 

I don't think you can judge the character of a person by the way that person communicate though... actually often people who are good in the manipulation of others are extremely good communicators and very assertive ones!

 

I tend to think that bad or good has more to do with the behavior and intentions of a person.

I also think there are no good or bad people, it is all about perception, and depends of the person who perceive us, we can be both.

I for example could be a very bad person for one of my ex-girlfriends as our relationship didn't work and she blame it on me but I could be perceived as a great person by one of my friends as I was always there for him.

We all have good and bad in ourselves and pure evil is very rare so it is pure goodness.

I also think people tend to externalize their own flaws and mistakes because it is easier to accuse others than judge one self, and when a relationship doesn't work is easy to blame others for the failure than look upon ourselves and see if we could have done something different or if we could have seen what was coming to us if we were not blinded by our own lack of self judgment.

[therhythm]

Awww, you are so polite and definitely know how "to say it right":), that's so cool.

 

My personal opinion is that we are all responsible for our actions. There's just too much info out there, too many "good" examples of correct behavior should an individual choose to look for them, choose to change themselves and such.

 

Nope, I don't see it as a free pass to treat others in an unbecoming manor. The link was meant to be more of a tool illustrate incorrect behavior.

 

A few years ago I was clueless, and in the early years of the internet, came across a description of "Emotional Abuse" and wow, there I was, meaning it was happening to me- that was the beginning of understanding.

 

You know, to some degree, we all have selfish tendancies, and are self-centered, which if one looks at bad traits, we can find ourselves in various descriptions. So thankfully didn't label everyone or every bad behavior as emotionally abusive.

 

Thank you very much

 

I again have to disagree with you, let me elaborate on it

 

Lets say that you have been educated by your parents in a very strong male chauvinist way where hitting a woman is the correct way of correcting her flaws.. You have never seen anything else that what your family teach you so hitting a woman for something you consider wrong is a normal thing in your life. Now, while the action of hitting a woman is a bad thing, is a person who doesn't know better evil for doing what has been teach to do?

This is a very extreme example to make my point but I guess what I am trying to say is that a person who has a disorder usually thinks that what he/she is doing is correct... and our perception of good and evil is what actually makes us good or evil, if a person doesn't know better you can consider him/her a danger but not a bad person....

Edited June 17, 2013 by therhythm

[TheFinalWord]

Thank you very much TheFinalWord, that was instructive!

 

No problem! I can't take the credit, those notes were from some books I read

 

I don't think you can judge the character of a person by the way that person communicate though... actually often people who are good in the manipulation of others are extremely good communicators and very assertive ones!

 

Oh, I agree! Assertive communication is a skill that can be learned, despite what our natural inclinations may be. For example, even if you are a passive communicator, you can train yourself to become assertive. Same with an aggressive communicator. Aggressive communicator does not necessarily mean the person comes off as mad and angry, but rather that they perceive that their rights and opinions are more important than the rights and opinions of others. People can train themselves to be more cognizant of the needs of others.

 

Communication also extends beyond verbal. Some message delivery channels include:

•Verbal language—content

•Manner—tone(how we vocally express message)

•Body language—gestures and movements

•Feelings or emotions—inner dialogue

•Symbolic communication—dress, hair style

•Territory—personal space

•Behavior—actions

 

 

Body language is important. One key of assertive communication is eye contact. Often passive people will not look directly in the eye when they want to convey their wishes. But you can train yourself to notice this about yourself (through cues) and force yourself to make eye contact when putting forth a request.

 

Assertive message delivery channels:

 

•Direct eye contact

•Appropriate use of hand movements

•Firm posture

•Speak clearly, audibly, and firmly

•Use of “I” statements; “I think/I feel…”

•Speaking in short, clear sentences

•Do not whine or us an apologetic tone

•Feedback pauses

 

Also, there are many assertiveness techniques such as broken record, diffusion, compromise, assertive agreement, fogging, etc.

 

What broken record technique entails is that when someone tries to talk you out of your assertive request, you do not argue with them (a lot of times aggressive communicators will try to get a passive communicator to back down). Instead, one simply repeats their assertive request over and over again.

 

Here is an example of a passive communicator using assertive communication technique of broken record. Kind of humorous, but it shows how to use broken record technique

 

 

I also think people tend to externalize their own flaws and mistakes because it is easier to accuse others than judge one self, and when a relationship doesn't work is easy to blame others for the failure than look upon ourselves and see if we could have done something different or if we could have seen what was coming to us if we were not blinded by our own lack of self judgment.

 

Agree 100%. People can justify any behavior to themselves.

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

Edited June 17, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

Dude, this is awesome (your latest post...)! Thank you so much for sharing such valuable info...when my brain comes back home (it ran away AGAIN, lol), intend on re-reading again, and again, and again...

[pureinheart]

Thank you very much

 

I again have to disagree with you, let me elaborate on it

 

Lets say that you have been educated by your parents in a very strong male chauvinist way where hitting a woman is the correct way of correcting her flaws.. You have never seen anything else that what your family teach you so hitting a woman for something you consider wrong is a normal thing in your life. Now, while the action of hitting a woman is a bad thing, is a person who doesn't know better evil for doing what has been teach to do?

This is a very extreme example to make my point but I guess what I am trying to say is that a person who has a disorder usually thinks that what he/she is doing is correct... and our perception of good and evil is what actually makes us good or evil, if a person doesn't know better you can consider him/her a danger but not a bad person....

 

Hey, no problem love:)

 

You know, I was thinking of this very concept when posting and the conclusion I came to, based on personal experience, that it would have to be an extreme case of never being exposed to any other behaviors- such as one who is held in confinement of some sort. One good example would be a secluded villiage in which every person follows all of the same behavioral "rules"...and even in this case, God speaks to the hearts of man. I do agree however, that if an individual completely closes their hearts to any/all truth ...then what you say is a real possibility, although still think it could be rare.

 

I have many friends who grew up under some really strange teachings and behaviors. As children we do pattern ourselves through what is seen, mostly our parents. I would have to say that a person who was raised with dad/mom hitting the other (for what ever reason), will most likely follow this learned behavior, although as the young adult is exposed to proper behavior (and as a child can be exposed to proper behavior), there is something that clicks inside the person (typically), saying that "this" is right, and "this" is wrong. Also when we're exposed to something "different", it stands out raising ones awareness and curiosity- then choice is made IMO-

 

It can be soooo hard to break learned patterns though, they can become so ingrained in our personalities, that I do believe that the person, after being exposed to correct behaviors, can begin to lie to themselves. They know it's wrong, but the behavior seems to pay off for them, meaning the desired results of control are achieved, so therefore "right" in their eyes.

[therhythm]

Dear Pureinheart and Thefinalword,

 

Thank you very much for your input on this topic, it has open my eyes to other ways to look to it and it has been very instructive regarding communication

 

I however was willing to have a rationalized discussion about the topic from a pure philosophical and human perspective.

 

 

God speaks to the hearts of man.

 

 

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.

 

These sentences are irrefutable if you have a strong faith, I am coming from a very religious family and while I don't share in their believes I have a strong respect for other people believes.

 

I anyhow can't have a rationalized discussion when someone else is calling into a greater being to judge our sins or to influence our actions therefore I graciously bow and write off myself from this thread, I totally admit this is my fault as we are in the spirituality and religious beliefs sub forum and I should have expected that, I was anyway very interested on the topic and I enjoyed the discussion while it was based in human behavior and not in God's will.

 

Thank you again for sharing your opinions with me

Edited June 18, 2013 by therhythm

[TheFinalWord]

Dude, this is awesome (your latest post...)! Thank you so much for sharing such valuable info...when my brain comes back home (it ran away AGAIN, lol), intend on re-reading again, and again, and again...

 

Welcome!

 

I think every "nice guy" should take a course in assertive communication haha

[pureinheart]

Welcome!

 

I think every "nice guy" should take a course in assertive communication haha

 

Agreed. I'm sure you may have left out some detail, although think you covered it very well. One attribute of mine is the ability to piece all info together creating an entire picture. I'm unable to learn it all at once on any given subject- is that weird?

 

This teaching was the nuts and bolts of the matter, attaching all of the rest I've learned together:D

[M30USA]

Agreed. I'm sure you may have left out some detail, although think you covered it very well. One attribute of mine is the ability to piece all info together creating an entire picture. I'm unable to learn it all at once on any given subject- is that weird?

 

This teaching was the nuts and bolts of the matter, attaching all of the rest I've learned together:D

 

I don't think it's weird at all. Generally, the more complete a person's understanding is of a subject, the longer it has taken to achieve.

[pureinheart]

Dear Pureinheart and Thefinalword,

 

Thank you very much for your input on this topic, it has open my eyes to other ways to look to it and it has been very instructive regarding communication

 

I however was willing to have a rationalized discussion about the topic from a pure philosophical and human perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

These sentences are irrefutable if you have a strong faith, I am coming from a very religious family and while I don't share in their believes I have a strong respect for other people believes.

 

I anyhow can't have a rationalized discussion when someone else is calling into a greater being to judge our sins or to influence our actions therefore I graciously bow and write off myself from this thread, I totally admit this is my fault as we are in the spirituality and religious beliefs sub forum and I should have expected that, I was anyway very interested on the topic and I enjoyed the discussion while it was based in human behavior and not in God's will.

 

Thank you again for sharing your opinions with me

 

You have the gift of diplomacy. I worked with a guy once that was much like you- he was training me, and I was in awe of his diplomatic abilities, so didn't pay much attention to the job:eek:...lol that must have been a bit of a pain for him as I was shifting the conversation constantly to pick his brain.

 

Thank you for the exchanges, they were very thought provoking. Hopefully LS will see you in other forums? Yes? I love psychological and philosphical discussions, although have avoided them for the most part due to my own anger issues. IDK anger and objectivity just can't seem to occupy the same space....so will close with nice guys rule!

[Robert Z]

You have the gift of diplomacy.

 

I think that is just an artifact of having lots and lots of sex and not spending nearly enough time on the internet.

[pureinheart]

I don't think it's weird at all. Generally, the more complete a person's understanding is of a subject, the longer it has taken to achieve.

 

Really? Thank you so much. It's always felt strange, like a learning disability. Like this thread for instance. A good portion of personal exposure was abusive relationships. The problem was figuring out why. This then branched out into so many different categories, It took a long time to break down, trying to put objectivity in the mix, meaning I know I'm a pain in the backside and not easy to deal with- that was the easy part, but figuring out "their" part was a challenge.

 

Then seeing online and off "nice guys" and seeing what is right and wrong...well the lightbulb came on.

 

Want to say, you guys have been essential in figuring out who I am and saw myself in the somewhat passive communication. In relationships there was a big tendancy not to say what I feel and just didn't want to deal with it because in most cases I wasn't being heard anyway. Therefore came the "screw you" attitude subconsciously, considering the relatonship "done" and would communicate that in actions and behavior, as again verbal communication wasn't heard.

 

You know what was the strangest thing concerning relationships? Most of them did not want te complete "done" thing...it's like they wanted no clarification. One guy told me that "guys" (and I'm sure girls do this also) do this on purpose, to keep that open door. That's odd to me.

[pureinheart]

I think that is just an artifact of having lots and lots of sex and not spending nearly enough time on the internet.

 

Robert, you crack me up:laugh:....

[angel.eyes]

Well, I think degree of "niceness" differs from one person to another, for instance one nice guy will say No Sex Before Marriage and the other nice guy takes that lightly and goes on to have safe sex.Nice guys can finish first too depending on how society is perceiving them.Girls may go for the bad boys cause a relationship with a bad boy is said to be full of adventure and thrilling unlike the "uneventful" one with a nice guy which is usually on the spot light because of unconformity.

 

Niceness and thrilling adventures are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps that misconception or the decision to redefine nice to equal boring (or serious, etc.) is the reason some nice guys (and nice girls) struggle.

 

I am adventurous, a thrill-seeker, fun, AND nice. No one has to be boring. That's a choice.

 

Ditto for viewing the only thrilling activity in life as premarital sex. For most adrenaline junkies, it's not even on their list of things to accomplish. Broader definitions of what constitutes a fun-filled, thrilling or adventurous life might be less boring...

[angel.eyes]

Can anyone define good guy and bad guy... I still don't know where I belong

 

Everyone has somewhat different definitions for "good" and "bad" boys. For some people, the definition varies even when it's the same two people involved. Just depends on where on the timeline they are--actively in the relationship, or after the relationship ends.

[TheFinalWord]

I don't think it's weird at all. Generally, the more complete a person's understanding is of a subject, the longer it has taken to achieve.

 

Agreed.

 

Corollary: the more understanding of a topic one has, the more one realizes how little they actually know

[pie2]

You have the gift of diplomacy. I worked with a guy once that was much like you- he was training me, and I was in awe of his diplomatic abilities, so didn't pay much attention to the job:eek:...lol that must have been a bit of a pain for him as I was shifting the conversation constantly to pick his brain.

 

:laugh:

 

You're cracking me up!

[pureinheart]

Agreed.

 

Corollary: the more understanding of a topic one has, the more one realizes how little they actually know

 

Lord, another big word I have to look up:laugh:

[TheFinalWord]

Lord, another big word I have to look up:laugh:

 

I like keeping you busy PIH Keeps you outta trouble lol j/k

[therhythm]

You have the gift of diplomacy.

 

Thank you! I am just trying to be polite, the fact that I may not agree with what you say doesn't mean that I need to be offensive, people often have different ways to interpret the same thing and it doesn't mean the they are your enemy

 

Thank you for the exchanges, they were very thought provoking. Hopefully LS will see you in other forums? Yes?

 

Sure, I will be around LS for a while, at least till I don't find anything interesting to discuss about anymore

[pureinheart]

A "personality disorder" is a label for a set of behaviors. It says nothing about a person's ability to control their behaviors, or not.

 

Some people are able to overcome a personality disorder with therapy. The therapeutic interventions that work are able to teach people to choose better behaviors.

 

I think people can choose how they behave, even with many other mental health diagnoses. It's a matter of learning how to behave more effectively, as they haven't learned up to this point, for whatever reason. This isn't true for all mental health diagnoses, but many, imo.

 

Saying that someone "isn't bad" because they've been given a diagnosis is a strange concept, I think. Charles Manson has a disorder, but he is certainly bad enough to warrant life in prison. Granted, some people have disorders (i.e. extreme schizophrenia), and have little control over what they do. But they still have "bad" or antisocial behavior, imo.

 

I do too Pie, and think that undesirable behavior just happens to work for them.

 

Pie, I mentioned two bad boys and described one, well here's the other, lol.

 

He lived under some unusual circumstances, ad I think these things need to be taken into account, but not for enabling purposes, for understanding purposes. He is in some serious therapy now, which IMO is a step in the right direction.

 

He was abused priddy severely as a child and teen. His mother divorced and remarried havng two half siblings. I won't go into all of his traumas, but here were many. The half siblings were catered to. He could not do much right in his parents eyes. Out of all the siblings (there are more, some half siblings and two "full" siblings..one passed) he is the most successful...wow talk about a mind.

 

Now this "bad boy" has a really good heart. I know, this sounds weird, but he does. He likes to control people, and thinks he can get others to behave correctly when all of the evidence is there that they won't. For instance- his brother hadn't paid his rent and was being evicted. He let his brother move into one of his houses. I told him, dude, go into this with your eyes wide open, explaining the reasons why. Well, as expected it turned into a big mess, his brother didn't pay much in two years and trashed his house.

 

This happens all of the time. Another example- he picks this chick up off the street and knows little about her. Long story short, she managed to get into his bank accounts and stole over 50K in a 7 mo period.

 

His life is constantly filled with drama and stress and is always calling the cops...it's really bad.

 

He is an extremely intelligent person, although thinks he's going to come out ahead with users and abusers???? I have NO room to talk, but have to say, he has me beat.

 

His anger runs deep and gets with me and takes his mess out on me (this happened during the relationship)...thisis my fault too for allowing t to happen.

 

Pie, it's so complicated concerning the dynamics, but I've learned to regroup after bad experiences, which is something that never happened before. When you've just come out of a trauma or traumas, the worst thing one can do is think they are capable of making correct decisions.

 

One major concept is the enemy. I've had many "cross my path" during or stortly after a traumatic experience...amazing how that works, eh?

[pureinheart]

I like keeping you busy PIH Keeps you outta trouble lol j/k

 

Amen to that Brotha! LOL, I'm so done with "adventures"...if I need adventure, swimming seems to fit the bill, and if getting crazy is needed, I'll lay in the sun:D vitamin D rocks (along with omega 3).

 

You're awesome dude!