Not every OW is 'waiting'

[Mme. Chaucer]

I am not reformed nor do I believe I did anything wrong; it is not my responsibility to save the M of a woman I do not know.

 

I agree that it's not my responsibility to save anybody's marriage whether I know them or not.

 

Refraining from entering into relationships with married people does not equate to trying to "save" their marriages, though.

[White Flower]

BW filed as a preemptive strike and as soon as she "got him back", lol, she withdrew the D. Her inheritance has run dry so she won't be pulling those stunts again, nor can she buy xMM any more toys to keep him happy.

 

And sleeping in the guest room is his choice, she's way too clingy to ask him to sleep separately, I've seen how she desperately clings to him in photos, where he doesn't even touch her. He prefers sleeping there so he can avoid any advances from her. It's passive but it works for him.

[whichwayisup]

BW filed as a preemptive strike and as soon as she "got him back", lol, she withdrew the D. Her inheritance has run dry so she won't be pulling those stunts again, nor can she buy xMM any more toys to keep him happy.

 

And sleeping in the guest room is his choice, she's way too clingy to ask him to sleep separately, I've seen how she desperately clings to him in photos, where he doesn't even touch her. He prefers sleeping there so he can avoid any advances from her. It's passive but it works for him.

 

WF, from what you've said about her, I really REALLY don't understand why he just doesn't up and leave, and divorce her. He's miserable with her so it makes no sense that he is still there.

[MissBee]

WF, from what you've said about her, I really REALLY don't understand why he just doesn't up and leave, and divorce her. He's miserable with her so it makes no sense that he is still there.

 

I think it's an exercise in futility to try to understand.

 

My bet is that this man is set in his ways, and so are all the other people in the triangle and it seems a slim chance that any of them will spontaneously change their ways.

 

WF's story gives me a headache but she is happy with it, his wife is happy with it, and MM is happy with it too. *shrug* My dad is a serial cheater and it's the same story everyday. WF's MM is also a serial cheater, but WF says she is his true love or what have you....in all these stories, my mom, WF, and any other where one or two or more women are dissing each other and defending their prize overgrown man-child, I just leave them to it. It actually ends up stressing out the people who are not involved more so than it stresses those embedded neck deep in this for yeaaaaaaaaars. They have grown accustomed to it and any other observations fall on deaf ears. The proof of not waiting is in the pudding...the fact that this thread exists and several permutations like it is enough for me to conclude what I conclude.

 

It is what it is and I'm sure WF will continue on doing this, as will MM as will his wife, and it's their choice.

[MissBee]

Wow, even with a W ready to kick him out he still couldn't/wouldn't leave?

 

This is really sad.

 

I just imagine him as catnip that 2 cats are toying with and fighting over and he is some spineless object in the center who can be "gotten back" and can't leave his dreadful wife, even though she filed for divorce. Even if she withdrew...why didn't he just file himself? Look..LMAOOOO. I. Can't. I. Am. Done. I would be embarrassed to know him or admit to wanting him or loving him. But I suppose the capacity to be embarrassed of him would also not permit me to stick around so long anyway, so for the fact you're around for so long, means you don't have that capacity to see how insane it all is. I mean you can pay lip service to how much you have boundaries and so on and so forth, but the little remarks and actions belie your true opinions smh.

 

I think MM like him should stay between the Never-leaving BS and the never-letting-go OW. It's safer in the dating world when men like that are safe and secure in such arrangements...and truth is: Every dog has it's bone. That is, this MM has met the two women in the world who will put up with him. It's not something everyone would do and life works that way...most women would be soooo done and moved on from this man that he'd have ZERO chance....but of course he doesn't meet women like that. His W and "true love OW" are two sides of the same coin...long-suffering with his shenanigans. The OW who have come and gone in his life, and who've been looked down on as just flings, they are the lucky ones!

[KathyM]

It IS amazing that anyone would want this man. A serial cheater that plays one woman against the other. A man who has no character or integrity. No spine. No maturity. Where is the prize in this? Why would two supposedly intelligent women who have a lot going for them put up with this crap? They (the wife and OW) are enablers who allow this man to continue to have his cake and eat it for years on end. Why do these women have no self respect? Why do they put up with this? Neither really have him and neither will ever have him. He will continue to cheat no matter if he stays with his wife or he goes to be with WF. As long as there are women willing to put up with this, he will never change. WF says she is not putting up with him, and now after many years of putting up with it, he has finally been forced to change. But that change is slow in coming. Is this really worth waiting for? This man who has so many issues, and is a serial cheater. It is amazing that either of these women would want him. He is no prize. Men like this don't deserve to have ANY woman. They should BOTH leave this guy and find someone who is actually healthy and who has some semblance of honesty and integrity. It's hard to believe women actually put up with this for years on end.

[Got it]

And if I use analogy here, that White Flower might not like to hear.

 

If I am the MM and his wife, we would both think why White Flower acts like a chewed/used gum, never go away. The used gum has been brushed aside, but it seems that the gum is still waiting to be re-chewed.

 

That certainly is not love.

 

The MM does not love you at all. At this point it does not matter to WF if he loves wife or not, but he certainly does not love White Flower at all.

 

At all huh? And who are you, or me, to actually try and quantify that or evaluate it?

 

I think like Bee said, by actions all parties are where they want to be and are "happy" in the scenario. Why do you need to continue to drum in that he doesn't care about WF? We are bystanders on an internet board, hardly experts in our own lives let alone anonymous posters.

[William]

My apologies for not making an appearance in this thread prior; we are working it in compliance with some new directives our head moderator has set out, so members may notice some changes as our work progresses. I'll leave the thread open for now with the advice that moderation is working it. The topic appears to be about some affair partners not waiting for their married partner and the processes and impacts of that choice. I'll expect responses to relate to that topic and proceed in a manner consistent with our guidelines. Thanks.

[MissBee]

Waiting IMO, is an emotional preoccupation or unavailability created by an attachment to someone and an investment in their life coupled by leaving the door open with hopes that you can be together "one day." Having a job, friends, volunteering or even dating doesn't preclude this. Waiting for me is not a literal sitting by the phone or watching the clock type of scenario.

 

When my ex and I broke up, I lived my life and dated others but was heavily invested in what he was/wasn't doing, with whom, tracking his progress and if he was working on himself and ultimately what I REALLY wanted was to see he was changing so we could be together. So while I dated, traveled, graduated and had a life...emotionally I was still preoccupied and invested in his life and hopes of a future.

 

Today: I am not waiting as I am not invested in him and don't act as a spectator, bystander or participant in his life. I wish him no ill will but he has no chance with me anymore and that door is closed permanently.

[carhill]

Waiting IMO, is an emotional preoccupation or unavailability created by an attachment to someone and an investment in their life coupled by leaving the door open with hopes that you can be together "one day." Having a job, friends, volunteering or even dating doesn't preclude this.

That's a really good point. I noted a marked change in emotion/perspective once 'terminating' the link to my prior OW/MW, one which had existed for decades, even if running at low intensity in the background. During those years I often processed the events cognitively as being 'over', but there was still unfinished business (in me) running in the background. Once that business was finished (MC helped a lot), it *feels* totally different.

 

That said, each of us operates differently emotionally so what might be construed as 'waiting' for my psychology at the elemental level may not be so for another person.

 

I was fortunate to have interactions after this process occurred within myself and the most marked change was lack of outcome dependency and the sincere hopes, in my case, for things to work out to the lady's advantage with her current boyfriend. They apparently did and I'm happy for them. If we were meant to be together we would have been. We weren't. Life goes on.

[2sunny]

BW filed as a preemptive strike and as soon as she "got him back", lol, she withdrew the D. Her inheritance has run dry so she won't be pulling those stunts again, nor can she buy xMM any more toys to keep him happy.

 

And sleeping in the guest room is his choice, she's way too clingy to ask him to sleep separately, I've seen how she desperately clings to him in photos, where he doesn't even touch her. He prefers sleeping there so he can avoid any advances from her. It's passive but it works for him.

 

The fact that you are so caught up in what they are - or aren't doing = means you are invested in their outcome.

 

Yes, YOU are waiting. Don't fool yourself!

 

No one invested this much energy in other people's marriage IF that aren't waiting.

 

You are second choice - but you've allowed it by not changing your life to eliminate him - and what he does or doesn't do!

 

 

You waiting means nothing changes.

 

BE the change you wish to see.

[Mme. Chaucer]

He usually calls me on vacations and says he is having a sucky time. FB photos show a man who has to get drunk in order to "have fun" and a W who has to get drunk in order to fit in. He doesn't touch her in photos but she is always leaning into him as if her presence is wanted

.

 

I hope that you don't determine what's going on with people who are important to you by looking at FB photos in your real life, and that this is just some kind of figurative example.

 

Pictures of drunk people usually actually depict … drunk people. Your ideas of why they're drunk in photos are meaningless and frankly, it's a little bit sad to read that.

 

You've posted more than once on this thread about the way he and his wife photograph together. It seems to me that you have a need to see these photos as something negative, so you are ascribing stuff to them that may or may not be there.

 

The facts: there are evidently a LOT of photos, current ones, of this couple together. And you spend time looking at them … on facebook! and analyzing them.

 

It sure doesn't sound like a very good activity.

 

Just for the record - if you were to look at pictures of me and my husband on facebook you might say the same thing. I am always hanging on him, smooching on him and bugging him while he looks all befuddled. It's what we do. No, he doesn't have a spare woman on the side.

 

She later complains that he doesn't look happy and they live like room mates and so on.

 

How are you privy to these complaints? Are they on fb too?

 

The vacations don't bother me one bit knowing what I know.

 

Regardless of what you "know" (and I firmly believe that NOBODY "knows" what goes on in the intimate private realms of other people's relationships, and this is not specific to affair triangles. We NEVER "know"), I don't get it.

 

Your thread is about not "waiting." You are broken up with this man, moved on with your life, he is back with his wife. So what are his family vacations to you anyway?

 

I'm not sticking up for that marriage. I actually concur with Miss Bee. You, the wife and the (horrible sounding) man are in a never ending cycle, evidently, where you all are so comfortable and somehow fulfilled with the roles you play in your little drama that you'll probably complete your lives without ever breaking out of them. I wish you could or would though. Life truly has a lot more to offer than what you're talking about here.

[2sunny]

If he wanted to leve or end his M - he would. But he hasn't.

 

Since you haven't had a substantial R with someone single in a while shows evidence that you haven't fully moved forward (and away from this MM).

 

The fact that YOU know what he is it isn't doing (according to his lies) - shows that you are still involved - which isn't right since its THEIR marriage!

 

How disrespectful of you and him.

 

You've wasted years of your time and energy on him.

 

When will it stop?

[White Flower]

My WF, you are by far the most popular, nearly 3500 views, you should start your own forum :bunny: you certainly draw the crowds.

 

And WWIU -And just to be on topic, lots of men stay in miserable marriages, I know. Maybe they just hope it will get better.

 

I never notice things like stats. Interesting...

[White Flower]

 

It IS amazing that anyone would want this man. A serial cheater that plays one woman against the other. A man who has no character or integrity. No spine. No maturity. Where is the prize in this? Why would two supposedly intelligent women who have a lot going for them put up with this crap? They (the wife and OW) are enablers who allow this man to continue to have his cake and eat it for years on end.

You had me until this bit. I am enabling nothing. He is not getting cake from me in any way. And he has no soft landing place until I see what I need to see, regardless of his retainer which will be dust if he doesn't proceed with the D.

Why do these women have no self respect? Why do they put up with this? Neither really have him and neither will ever have him.

She has no self respect, I would agree. Status quo I suppose.

He will continue to cheat no matter if he stays with his wife or he goes to be with WF. As long as there are women willing to put up with this, he will never change.

You have no idea how observant and analytical I am when I care about something. Not one woman, including his W, suspected a thing with him in 40 years but I did. And I busted his azz. I must admit it was quite satisfying doing so, after all he deserved it. And then I demanded change and I got it, keeping the ever watchful eye I always had. I know growth when I see it and he's grown. Don't worry KathyM, someone's got an eye on him I assure you.

 

As a possible future counselor I hope you aren't as fatalistic in your approach with SCs. There are a whole lot more out there than you suspect and you be seeing quite a number of them if you go into family practice.

WF says she is not putting up with him, and now after many years of putting up with it, he has finally been forced to change. But that change is slow in coming. Is this really worth waiting for? This man who has so many issues, and is a serial cheater. It is amazing that either of these women would want him. He is no prize. Men like this don't deserve to have ANY woman. They should BOTH leave this guy and find someone who is actually healthy and who has some semblance of honesty and integrity. It's hard to believe women actually put up with this for years on end.

Again I reiterate, BW puts up with status quo whereas I demand change. And I am willing to walk if I don't get it.

 

Picture this: BW finds a reactivated secret cell last <insert holiday> and in it she sees him wishing me a happy whatever and goes ballistic. She wakes him from sleeping on the couch and confronts him and says are you going to throw away the phone or am I? He grabs it from her and says I will. She walks away and says well I've got another party tomorrow and need to put on a happy face so you go ahead and deal with it and by the way you're staying on the couch. He says that's why I was on the couch in the first place -- who wants to listen to you snore.

 

Couple days later they are in the car and he accidentally butt dials me. All I hear is BW saying I bought this and I bought that and let's call <insert son's name> and tell him we bought <his love> (forgive my sarcastic moment) and I can't wait to do this and do that and you're so funny ...and BW acted as if nothing happened a couple nights before. Had it been me the party the next day would have been canceled. Everything gets put on a table and gets worked out. Maybe that's why he stays, it's easier that's for sure, but he is numb and can't laugh deeply.

 

When he can attach the correct value to the one he loves rather than the one he's always been duty bound to then he'll be healthy. I won't have him any other way. And to say I'm putting up with him when I only reassess the situation when we talk is to say you (general you) haven't been reading anything I have posted. I expected a little more from you KM.

[White Flower]

The fact that you are so caught up in what they are - or aren't doing = means you are invested in their outcome.

 

Yes, YOU are waiting. Don't fool yourself!

 

No one invested this much energy in other people's marriage IF that aren't waiting.

 

You are second choice - but you've allowed it by not changing your life to eliminate him - and what he does or doesn't do!

 

 

You waiting means nothing changes.

 

BE the change you wish to see.

 

I'd suggest you look up literary fallacies. One doesn't mean the other, I just happen to know the story. I get it from him, mutual friends (who think we are better for each other) and his IC. And I'm caught up in me...and what the future may hold if I allow him in my life. You're confusing it or is that an agenda...

[ComingInHot]

Whiteflower, what is it that you want? What is it that you need?

[William]

Folks, I'll say this sincerely. You can go right on posting without regard to our guidelines and you'll keep disappearing as we process this and other threads. We've been directed to eliminate this rancorous and vitriolic and disrespectful posting from our forums and we're working diligently to that goal. You do what you do and we'll do what we do. I do know we'll be here when we're done. Anything else is unknown.

[jlola]

Y

 

Picture this: BW finds a reactivated secret cell last <insert holiday> and in it she sees him wishing me a happy whatever and goes ballistic. She wakes him from sleeping on the couch and confronts him and says are you going to throw away the phone or am I? He grabs it from her and says I will. She walks away and says well I've got another party tomorrow and need to put on a happy face so you go ahead and deal with it and by the way you're staying on the couch. He says that's why I was on the couch in the first place -- who wants to listen to you snore.

 

Couple days later they are in the car and he accidentally butt dials me. All I hear is BW saying I bought this and I bought that and let's call <insert son's name> and tell him we bought <his love> (forgive my sarcastic moment) and I can't wait to do this and do that and you're so funny ...and BW acted as if nothing happened a couple nights before. Had it been me the party the next day would have been canceled. Everything gets put on a table and gets worked out. Maybe that's why he stays, it's easier that's for sure, but he is numb and can't laugh deeply.

 

When he can attach the correct value to the one he loves rather than the one he's always been duty bound to then he'll be healthy. I won't have him any other way. And to say I'm putting up with him when I only reassess the situation when we talk is to say you (general you) haven't been reading anything I have posted. I expected a little more from you KM.

 

 

How do you know the first incident really happened? Perhaps,she was in the car talking like nothing happened a couple of nights before because nothing did happen. He made that stuff up. Why? It's called manipulation. My father does that all the time. He makes up crazy stories about my mother even knowing we(his kids) will confirm. Trying o figure out these people is why the phrase "Crazy-making)" was coined. You can't!!

[MissBee]

Not waiting is moving on and not caring to observe MM change or meet any standard or later be with you.

 

How can you see what you need to see unless you stick around to see it? You can't. Your emotions and mind HAVE to be on this person to do so.

 

As I said, having a job and dating are irrelevant re: waiting. Being emotionally preoccupied and having hope for a future and tracking this person's progress is what keeps you tuned in and waiting. Not waiting is turning off the metaphorical the tv, closing the door, and walking away, not muting it until you see a good show coming on, then you unmute it to listen and watch, criticize and report back.

Edited June 18, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Quote redacted

[2sunny]

I can't imagine giving any man as this ANY thought, time or energy - much less following his moves or no moves.

 

He's had many OW - yet you think he's great enough to consider.

 

I wish you thought you deserve better than him.

[JustJoe]

I don't know if you've read the whole thread and I've been careful to not put TMI out there so for now I'll just refer you to post #49 in this thread. It should explain a lot until I can fill you in properly. The point of the thread was that not all OP sit and pine for the MP. They get on with their life and won't take their love back unless it is on their terms, something you know about.

Well, you know what my opinion and jackie's is, that this guy isn't worth the perspiration off you undies. You've been emotionally tied up with this , ahem! person, for too long. I'm glad that you are carrying on, but I just wish that you had someone worthy of you. Edited June 18, 2013 by JustJoe

[findingnemo]

Your question is why is love a wife has for her husband considered acceptable, but not love an OW has for the MM. It's because the two people in the marriage promised to love each other and forsake all others. An OW's love undermines, damages, and destroys the marriage. It takes what was promised to another. What belongs to another. Your love for your MM is undermining and destroying the love the MM has for his wife whom he promised it to. Until he breaks that marital bond and ends his marriage, his love and fidelity is promised to his wife. Why is this so difficult to understand? The OW's love for the MM undermines/damages/destroys a marriage. It does incredible harm to the woman who was promised this man's love and faithfulness.

 

Kathy, the love of the OW doesn't damage, undermine or destroy the love MM has for his W. It is the MM and his actions/choices that do that. The OW owes nothing in terms of promises to the BW.

 

To think like that means MMs are helpless creatures who fall for the wiles of women. I don't know if you have already addressed this (just coming into the thread). Marriages are destroyed by one or both of the parties to it. Affairs happen because some spouses are unhappy and other spouses are simply selfish douchebags. Whichever they are, the cheating spouse makes choices that undermine the marital union. The OW/OM simply becomes the tool used from the point of view of the BS. I don't remember caring too much about whether the OWs in my M seduced my xH. I blamed him 100% for what happened. He undermined his love for me. Heck, he destroyed my love for him.

[findingnemo]

Thanks for your question LFH.

 

I wanted to make the statement that not all OW are sitting around and pining for their long-awaited knight in shining armor. Not all of us need or want "validation" or "a man of our own". I've had a man of my own, for three decades, and I'll tell you that being single is a wonderful thing! I may even prefer it. And with this experience under my belt I know that to go back into a full time committed R it better be worth it! It can't be mediocre and we can't fall into past patterns or behaviors that one or the other fell into before. I demand better from myself and for myself and I won't be taking my lover back under any condition that doesn't suit me so while my love is unconditional my standards for Rs is not. And it appears to me that many posters here believe that we will take any MM that offers us love and validation no matter what and I call Bull***t on that.

 

So while I listen to what is going on with him and reassess whether he is healthy enough to share a life with me I am not pining for him, leading him on, throwing myself at him, or "waiting for my happy ever after".

 

This actually makes sense to me. I understand what you're saying. I love xMM and I don't believe that loving someone is bad whether married or not. Love is just that...love.

 

There are some fOWs who have made the choice to end the A. It may be painful, it may not enable them to fall in love with other people but still they ended the A. Are they still waiting? Perhaps some are. I know that while I live my life fully, my heart still yearns for xMM. Does that mean I am waiting on him to leave his W and come to me? No. What it means is that I have made a choice and I'm doing what's best for me.

 

OWs are not always blinded with love. Many times they can see the flaws in a MM. Reading your OP, I think you are saying that it is possible for a fOW or current one to still love the MM regardless of the things he has or hasn't done. Regardless of the pain he caused. Sometimes we advise OWs to let MMs go and move on. We even go as far as saying the MM doesn't deserve her love. All this may be true at that time, but in some cases you just can't work on falling out of love successfully. Sometimes you learn to accept a man for who he is - a jerk sometimes, a confused husband, a man who essentially wants to be good but is, n essence, just another human being.

 

So to the question of how it seems okay for a BW to love a jerk but not for OW? The way I see it, all men (and women) can be jerks sometimes. If I was with a single man who put me through a lot of pain, it is quite possible that I will still love that jerk. The same goes for a BW who not only could lose the man she loves but her family unit, her kids' safe haven, her home and extended family, etc. Perhaps a BW has a lot more to lose and therefore people find it understandable that she will give her jerk another chance. In the case of the OW, she can still break free of what could become a lifetime of pain and misery. So most people advise the OW to get out and stop loving the MM.

 

At the end of the day, it all comes down to individual Rs and the individuals in them. Loving jerks is not confined to married people, other people or single people. We should all just pray we fall in love with someone who is essentially a good person. The opposite is torture regardless of who you are in the R.

[White Flower]

How do you know the first incident really happened? Perhaps,she was in the car talking like nothing happened a couple of nights before because nothing did happen. He made that stuff up. Why? It's called manipulation. My father does that all the time. He makes up crazy stories about my mother even knowing we(his kids) will confirm. Trying o figure out these people is why the phrase "Crazy-making)" was coined. You can't!!

 

You know your grandfather because you have observed him many years, no? Just as I have with xMM. Being very analytical to the point that many of my friends say I'm psychic (I'm not, but I'm very intuitive) I do have a lot of insight.

 

I also knew Ddays were going to happen before they did and often warned xMM of their pending doom but he thought he knew his W more than I did. I'm sure he does but he never once heeded a warning I gave to his own detriment because as I stated earlier only the MPs suffer on Ddays. Unless of course there is the forced obligatory NC call that any OW can see right through. Water off a duck's back.

 

I've also gotten to know BW's personality a bit through the way she nabbed her H's cell and texted me some very unsavory words. She couldn't handle my retorts so she never tried that again. That was Dday number 18, the one before the holiday in question.

 

My guy loves to replay stories over and over. He has no idea how I compare them each time to see if there is a hole in it. Just a hobby of the analytical mind I guess.