Not every OW is 'waiting'

[White Flower]

I can't imagine giving any man as this ANY thought, time or energy - much less following his moves or no moves.

 

He's had many OW - yet you think he's great enough to consider.

 

I wish you thought you deserve better than him.

 

Why don't you call his W and say that to her?

[White Flower]

This actually makes sense to me. I understand what you're saying. I love xMM and I don't believe that loving someone is bad whether married or not. Love is just that...love.

 

There are some fOWs who have made the choice to end the A. It may be painful, it may not enable them to fall in love with other people but still they ended the A. Are they still waiting? Perhaps some are. I know that while I live my life fully, my heart still yearns for xMM. Does that mean I am waiting on him to leave his W and come to me? No. What it means is that I have made a choice and I'm doing what's best for me.

 

OWs are not always blinded with love. Many times they can see the flaws in a MM. Reading your OP, I think you are saying that it is possible for a fOW or current one to still love the MM regardless of the things he has or hasn't done. Regardless of the pain he caused. Sometimes we advise OWs to let MMs go and move on. We even go as far as saying the MM doesn't deserve her love. All this may be true at that time, but in some cases you just can't work on falling out of love successfully. Sometimes you learn to accept a man for who he is - a jerk sometimes, a confused husband, a man who essentially wants to be good but is, n essence, just another human being.

 

So to the question of how it seems okay for a BW to love a jerk but not for OW? The way I see it, all men (and women) can be jerks sometimes. If I was with a single man who put me through a lot of pain, it is quite possible that I will still love that jerk. The same goes for a BW who not only could lose the man she loves but her family unit, her kids' safe haven, her home and extended family, etc. Perhaps a BW has a lot more to lose and therefore people find it understandable that she will give her jerk another chance. In the case of the OW, she can still break free of what could become a lifetime of pain and misery. So most people advise the OW to get out and stop loving the MM.

 

At the end of the day, it all comes down to individual Rs and the individuals in them. Loving jerks is not confined to married people, other people or single people. We should all just pray we fall in love with someone who is essentially a good person. The opposite is torture regardless of who you are in the R.

 

Awesome post Findingnemo!!

[White Flower]

How do you know the first incident really happened? Perhaps,she was in the car talking like nothing happened a couple of nights before because nothing did happen. He made that stuff up. Why? It's called manipulation. My father does that all the time. He makes up crazy stories about my mother even knowing we(his kids) will confirm. Trying o figure out these people is why the phrase "Crazy-making)" was coined. You can't!!

 

I just wanted to say I'm sorry you grew up in a home where a father lies and belittles his wife. I'm sure this has caused some trust issues for you and with the men in your life. I hope I'm wrong, but that's what it seems like.

[carhill]

OP, as you apparently have experienced a betrayal by your now exH, and have resolved that dynamic and continue to interact with him and his new wife (fOW), how would you characterize the difference in feelings about that dynamic versus the dynamic with the MM you're speaking of in this thread?

 

In the case of your exH, you've apparently detached and have no unfinished business with him; with MM, you've asserted you aren't 'waiting' for him and have very specific parameters and boundaries for any future interactions.

 

What I'm trying to understand is the emotional part; how the feelings describe the difference between 'waiting' and 'not waiting'.

 

Since you're dating, it's possible you might meet an available man with whom you find chemistry and compatibility. If that happens, how would you process the emotions of progressing that versus the current status quo with MM?

 

I'll give an example from past life: In quiet moments over the years, moments of personal time, as we (fMW and I) had shared many 'I love you's', I would sometimes quietly say that to myself, including her name. It was almost a reflex. I would do that even though 99% of the time she never entered my conscious thoughts. Now, sometimes the 'I love you' leaks out, generally a feature of my emotional style, but there's no name on the end of it. My subconscious isn't bringing her up anymore. It's gone. For myself, that's one way how I define the difference between 'waiting' and 'not waiting', emotionally. Another example is when those e-mail viruses invade her or her family member's e-mail accounts and send out spam to their address book, causing e-mails with their names to appear in my mailbox, as I never eliminated contact means, rather we simply ended contact. Before, in years past, I would 'feel' something when seeing those names, without even knowing what the e-mail was; after 'waiting' ended, I process it as neutral (no 'feeling') and know it's not them and clean up the e-mails and move on, not even looking at them.

 

Do you have any examples that you can share? I find the emotional components of these processes fascinating, especially how they are different for each of us. I understand if you'd prefer not to get into such subjects, but it was on my mind.

[Got it]

I feel if she still even acknowledges his presense while he is still living in his home with his wife then she is "waiting" She is causing herself not to be able to move on and forget him.

 

And why does this matter? It is obviously your definition but do you feel that it is transient to all individuals? And why should WF have to forget him? Why does that constitute not waiting?

 

I am very confused by the very rigid and black and white definitions imposed here. I think waiting is a very individual thing and for some it means even a moment passing thought and for others it means not being physically together.

 

WF, are you happy with where your life is today? Do you feel you are waiting? If you answer yes and no then I really don't understand who any of us believes we may be to second guess, disagree, or dispute your opinion. Basically to do so is calling you a liar and unable to know how you feel, think and believe.

 

And I know no one is meaning to be so insulting.

[xxoo]

You had me until this bit. I am enabling nothing. He is not getting cake from me in any way. And he has no soft landing place until I see what I need to see, regardless of his retainer which will be dust if he doesn't proceed with the D.

 

You haven't closed the door completely. He knows he still has your heart. That's cake. Even in his marriage, even in LC or NC, he knows he still has your heart. How gratifying for him.

[cocorico]

I'm curious as to what others feels constitute "waiting" as WF has given her definition.

It would be interesting to see if the differences of opinion are simply word choices.

 

To me, "waiting" would imply that I (or another) had invested the power in another to determine the outcome or direction of my life over the short or longer term, through their choices / actions, rather than my own.

 

If I was simply getting on with my life, and they ran while were getting on wi theirs, then whether or not I cared for them I would not be waiting on them / for them, unless decisions and actions I took were contingent on what they may or may not do.

 

For example, if I wanted to go and see a movie, and was hoping to go with a particular person, and was holding back on finalising my own plans pending news of their availability /interest in attending the movie with me, I would say I was waiting. But if I went ahead and booked my ticket, and issued an invite to them (and / or others) to join me if they wished, that would not be waiting. ID still be seeing the movie I wanted to see, and if they joined me, that would be even better, but if they couldn't / didn't want to, I'd still be going anyway. My plans would not change depending on their availability.

 

As I understand it, in WF's situation, she's booked her movie ticket and plans on going. If MM joins her, good and well, but if not, she's still going to enjoy the movie with whoever does make it. Win-win.

[Summer Breeze]

My definition of waiting for someone is similar to what CR said. I like the movie analogy. When dMM and I were in the A I never waited for him. He did more to work around my life than I did to work around his. I had no problem changing anything minor if he was free but I didn't give up anything important. It was no different than what I would or would not do for any friend or in any R.

 

As far as after I ended the A. I didn't wait before so why would I wait when it ended? I mourned our R. I missed him and I spent some time questioning myself. I kept momentos around me and I had great comfort from emails and photos. That didn't mean I was waiting for him. It meant I had a very deep meaningful R with him and it took time to work through. It was the same with my xH when I D'ed him. I mourned our R and I missed him too. I didn't question my choice to leave either of them but that doesn't mean there wasn't time when they were on my mind. I couldn't have turned it off on demand and I wouldn't have wanted to. Did that stunt my moving forward? No it was part and parcel of it.

 

With all that said I can see how sitting and dwelling and watching FB pages can be counterproductive. Any obsessive behavior is whether you're in a M, an A, or BF and GF.

 

You shouldn't drag your feet but you can't excessively force yourself to get through something til you're ready.

 

WF I don't see you as someone who waits for anyone. I think in many ways we're alike. If Mr Right showed up next week you wouldn't turn your back on him because of xMM. He's made his choices and you'll make yours. I agree anyone who breaks up with someone will always make comparisons to their last R but I'm not a believer that necessarily will make it so you'd miss out on something that could be lasting love.

 

Sometimes it feels like people in here are preaching that there are millions of people running around that you can fall in love with. I've been in love 2 maybe 3 times in my life. I don't fall in love easily. I had a LTR after dMM and I broke up but I didn't love him and it was unfair to him. Love isn't lurking behind every lamp post and if dMM hadn't come back to my life I may never have had another LTR. It didn't mean I was waiting or broken. It means I don't think you fall in and out of love easily. I hope that wasn't too OT!

[jlola]

You know your grandfather because you have observed him many years, no? Just as I have with xMM. Being very analytical to the point that many of my friends say I'm psychic (I'm not, but I'm very intuitive) I do have a lot of insight.

 

I also knew Ddays were going to happen before they did and often warned xMM of their pending doom but he thought he knew his W more than I did. I'm sure he does but he never once heeded a warning I gave to his own detriment because as I stated earlier only the MPs suffer on Ddays. Unless of course there is the forced obligatory NC call that any OW can see right through. Water off a duck's back.

 

I've also gotten to know BW's personality a bit through the way she nabbed her H's cell and texted me some very unsavory words. She couldn't handle my retorts so she never tried that again. That was Dday number 18, the one before the holiday in question.

 

My guy loves to replay stories over and over. He has no idea how I compare them each time to see if there is a hole in it. Just a hobby of the analytical mind I guess.

 

 

If a person,man or woman has to be taught what is respectful behavior,what is acceptable,what is manipulative, this person will not be in my life. These lessons they should have learned as children. I am not going to stick around to see if they change. Sorry, but I do feel my worth is much more than having to "settle" for someone like that.

 

I feel bad my mother had such low self worth,she was waiting for the man to change his character. As for just accepting his behavior,she did not. My mother called my father out on all he did. that was the problem. He did not want to be called out. But his lies,she fell for. I guess we want to believe those e love.

 

She would leave,he would straighten up. I too wonder why the wife had to file for divorce. I wonder why this man is till married. Just boggles my mind the excuses that are made for this man. As though he is some sort of God. If he has such a horrible wife,if he is so miserable, if he is so in love with you leave!!!!He is not a slave and divorce is allowed.

Edited June 18, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Pierre]

we are just very intuitive and like to understand how people role. Gets a bit skewed when emotions are deep though sometimes for me anyhow.

 

Trying to understand the issues of others may be easier and simpler than self analysis. :laugh:

[jlola]

I just wanted to say I'm sorry you grew up in a home where a father lies and belittles his wife. I'm sure this has caused some trust issues for you and with the men in your life. I hope I'm wrong, but that's what it seems like.

 

I do have trust issues and I keep a watchful eye. I do not feel sorry for me since my days of putting up with Assclown are over. I do however feel sorry for people who set such a low bar for "acceptable" behavior. Especially when it pertains to the people they are close to. I do not speak with my father now, nor do I give anyone with bad character a chance to get close to me.

 

I too feel I have the ability to access people right away. People generally show you what they are capable of in time we just think they will never do to us as they do to others because we are so special and we have a bond.

 

I read once this is the personality type that stays in abusive relationships. They feel they somehow have a "special bond". "They are different","he loves them", he told them so! You are shown the side he feels can best manipulate.

Regardless to how he treats you, he has the capabilities to be shockingly cold and deceptive. 19Ddays shows a man who is absolutely disrespectful and has the capacity to backstab and disrespect not only his wife, but he children. It seems to be all about him. If you cannot see that how someone treats others is just as important as he treats you, then good luck.

 

Edited June 18, 2013 by jlola

[White Flower]

You haven't closed the door completely. He knows he still has your heart. That's cake. Even in his marriage, even in LC or NC, he knows he still has your heart. How gratifying for him.

 

And how very gratifying for me to know I have his. Thanks for reminding me if that, although he beat you to the punch when he called this morning. He also asked when he could move in. I'm afraid I'm not ready so I said we will have to discuss it later.

[White Flower]

 

Do you have any examples that you can share? I find the emotional components of these processes fascinating, especially how they are different for each of us. I understand if you'd prefer not to get into such subjects, but it was on my mind.

 

Carhill, thank you for your thoughtful question. I will answer it when I get home from work.

[White Flower]

Question. What do you think white flower would do if mm were to leave his house right now?

We're not calling her a liar. We want her to examine her feelings and realize she is in denial right now and it's not healthy. People aren't being mean. They are trying to help her.

 

 

Posting while on a break...

 

Interesting reading this as xMM called this morning wanting to discuss a move in date. I put him off. He is waiting for me to be ok with us living together, and I am waiting on my intuition to kick in and be ok with it. As of yet I am not ok with us living together. He's asked his IC if he can bring me in to discuss it and I have not agreed to go yet. I'm thinking about that today.

[Owl]

WF...not picking a fight here, but reading that last post, he almost sounds a little sad and pathetic.

 

After having been blown off on the subject by you already, his asking his therapist if he can invite his affair partner in to his next therapy session to try to convince her to let him move in with her...doesn't strike me as an overly "manly" way to work through this stuff.

 

Clearly there's something there that's kept you attracted to him, don't take me wrong. It just doesn't shine through your recent posts about him from what I've seen.

[jlola]

Asking to move in with you while still living with her means nothing and you know it. Words not actions. He has to move out and he's not doing it.He's playing games with your heart and it sucks.

 

 

Cn this man not live by himself or at least some friends before moving in? It seems as though he will only leave his wife if WF lets him move in. sad. How about being on his own so he can have time to adjust, then they can date like real people.

 

WF,you are on the right path. Do not allow him to pressure you about moving in. This is on him to take care of his situation. Not you. Unbelievable!! This man gets worse the more I read.

[xxoo]

I'm confused. How is taking his phone calls and considering moving in, visiting his IC, etc, while he is married and living with her not enabling?

[2sunny]

Posting while on a break...

 

Interesting reading this as xMM called this morning wanting to discuss a move in date. I put him off. He is waiting for me to be ok with us living together, and I am waiting on my intuition to kick in and be ok with it. As of yet I am not ok with us living together. He's asked his IC if he can bring me in to discuss it and I have not agreed to go yet. I'm thinking about that today.

 

I hope you don't consider it until his divorce is final.

 

This is a guy who's had many OW, correct?

 

As

Long as you expect him to cheat - go ahead...

 

You still don't sound like a gal who's "not waiting" though.

[MissBee]

Cn this man not live by himself or at least some friends before moving in? It seems as though he will only leave his wife if WF lets him move in. sad. How about being on his own so he can have time to adjust, then they can date like real people.

 

WF,you are on the right path. Do not allow him to pressure you about moving in. This is on him to take care of his situation. Not you. Unbelievable!! This man gets worse the more I read.

 

The fact that he has the gall to call to even ask about moving in is absurd .

 

I would have laughed at him and hung up....crazy!

 

But it seems like he has had no real consequences for his actions from the women in his life, so is very brazen and feels no awkward way at all about these requests. We teach people how to treat us and what people feel comfortable requesting or doing to us tells a lot about how they see us. We all know who in our lives will put up with what and who won't, so we ask certain people certain things and not others.

 

I would cut off any opportunity for him to use me as a soft landing. He's already gotten years and years of time and back and forth and has been accustomed to certain allowances and accommodations of course, but I'd really surprise him and mainly for MYSELF, tell him to ring me once he has divorced and moved out on his own. If he doesn't believe me and still wants to call about moving in or coming to his counselor with him while married, he would be met with the dial tone. At this point, he has been allowed to keep this up for yeaaaaaars, at this point, coddling him won't do, as it has never worked...so saying NO and allowing him to deal with himself without being there to listen/coach/handhold etc. seems reasonable to me.

[xxoo]

WF, you sound so strong here.

 

But after all these years, to answer his calls and actually listen to him talk about moving in together and going to IC together while he is still married to his wife....I don't get it. Most women would hang up the phone.

 

This guy must be a-ma-zing in bed for two women to put up with so much nonsense for so long!

[jlola]

This man cannot seem to let go of a relationship unless he has a sure bet. WF, please do not allow him to manipulate you into moving in. Stay strong. If you do not allow him to move in, will he then stay with his wife.

 

He is sooooooooo very unhealthy it does seem remarkable a strong headed woman as yourself is even giving him the time of day!

 

As MB said, he needs to deal with consequences, HE needs to live on his own for awhile. You expected to be the soft landing shows what a user he is. And if his therapist is going along with his "crazy", he/she needs to b replaced ASAP!!!

[MissBee]

WF, you sound so strong here.

 

But after all these years, to answer his calls and actually listen to him talk about moving in together and going to IC together while he is still married to his wife....I don't get it. Most women would hang up the phone.

 

This guy must be a-ma-zing in bed for two women to put up with so much nonsense for so long!

 

LOL @ a-ma-zing in bed .

 

I put up with an ex doing back and forth nonsense for about a year....I thought I loved him and thought I was putting my foot down for him to do better. He would call me with nonsense though, he didn't work on himself, just wanted me to be there to hang out, have sex and listen to him while he still did nonsense in his life. I thought I was being firm and strong by saying I wouldn't get back together with him, yet, my actions were that I still answered his calls, once in a while when I felt he was "being good" I'd go have lunch with him and basically I realized, he didn't respect me, although he claimed I was the only one who called him on his BS and he needed it and me in his life to keep him in line smh , he KNEW I had a soft spot for him, so he'd do just enough to make it seem like he was working on himself, but essentially, he just knew he could just butter me up to get his way and didn't really take me seriously. I however felt I had some special hold on him and could really "help" him...now...I would NEVER EVER EVER be with a man whom I have to help to be a decent human being. He didn't take me seriously, because I wasn't as serious. He knew I didn't put my foot all the way down, hence he just ignored me and kept calling and requesting things of me....which sometimes I declined and sometimes I said I'd think about and sometimes I'd say no...when really it should have been a consistent NO.

 

However, after a year and a half I got tired of him and realized that it was the saaaaaame pattern, going nowhere and I didn't need to give it anymore of my precious time and youth. I shaped up and told him I had no interest in anything unless X happened and don't call me back until X happened, because I wasn't interested. Well....I was really serious and I think he just knew I was, as he never did bother me with nonsense anymore, I then realized he wasn't changing and I just enabled him and needed to move on and that I did. I felt annoyed to have wasted almost 2 years in such a yoyo situation, but it could have been longer and more damaging, so I'm glad it wasn't and going forward I vowed not to be wishy-washy where I say one thing but leave the door open for this person to disregard it.

Edited June 18, 2013 by MissBee

[jlola]

Is this the grown cheaters"crazy makers" version of "I'll hold my breath till I turn blue" if you don't give me what want mommy? " I will stay with my wife and suffer if you do not provide me with a place to live" seems awfully similar.

 

Perhaps we should all thank WF for keeping this man from other women and potentially ruining other lives. WF,change your phone number, put him on ignore. There is no reforming a man who has no clue to life or acceptable behavior. Time waster. But like my mother and many women, the more time you invested in this person, the less you want to see reality.

[2sunny]

I agree with WF being invested instead of not waiting.

 

Someone not waiting would have simply answered NO to his pathetic request.

[Got it]

Question. What do you think white flower would do if mm were to leave his house right now?

We're not calling her a liar. We want her to examine her feelings and realize she is in denial right now and it's not healthy. People aren't being mean. They are trying to help her.

 

Really? who are you to say that? I don't see WF asking for others to "want her to examine her feelings" nor assessing her state of mind. I don't see WF asking for any assistance so why it is being forced down her throat ad nauseum?

 

I think the definition of insanity seems to fit here. Why keep doing the same thing and expecting different results? At no point has this proven to be effective with WF by you and others but it continues over and over again. So if she isn't asking for it, wanting it, desiring it, or demanding it why do it? Why not pay attention and spend energies on those that are actually asking for it?

 

It's like a crazy campaign that confuses the heck out of me.