Not every OW is 'waiting'

[White Flower]

My definition of waiting for someone is similar to what CR said. I like the movie analogy. When dMM and I were in the A I never waited for him. He did more to work around my life than I did to work around his. I had no problem changing anything minor if he was free but I didn't give up anything important. It was no different than what I would or would not do for any friend or in any R.

 

As far as after I ended the A. I didn't wait before so why would I wait when it ended? I mourned our R. I missed him and I spent some time questioning myself. I kept momentos around me and I had great comfort from emails and photos. That didn't mean I was waiting for him. It meant I had a very deep meaningful R with him and it took time to work through. It was the same with my xH when I D'ed him. I mourned our R and I missed him too. I didn't question my choice to leave either of them but that doesn't mean there wasn't time when they were on my mind. I couldn't have turned it off on demand and I wouldn't have wanted to. Did that stunt my moving forward? No it was part and parcel of it.

 

With all that said I can see how sitting and dwelling and watching FB pages can be counterproductive. Any obsessive behavior is whether you're in a M, an A, or BF and GF.

 

You shouldn't drag your feet but you can't excessively force yourself to get through something til you're ready.

 

WF I don't see you as someone who waits for anyone. I think in many ways we're alike. If Mr Right showed up next week you wouldn't turn your back on him because of xMM. He's made his choices and you'll make yours. I agree anyone who breaks up with someone will always make comparisons to their last R but I'm not a believer that necessarily will make it so you'd miss out on something that could be lasting love.

 

Sometimes it feels like people in here are preaching that there are millions of people running around that you can fall in love with. I've been in love 2 maybe 3 times in my life. I don't fall in love easily. I had a LTR after dMM and I broke up but I didn't love him and it was unfair to him. Love isn't lurking behind every lamp post and if dMM hadn't come back to my life I may never have had another LTR. It didn't mean I was waiting or broken. It means I don't think you fall in and out of love easily. I hope that wasn't too OT!

I love this post and I thank you for it. It is kind of how I wanted to answer carhill's question. I too found love 2 or 3 times, okay the first time was puppy love, and as much as I'd like to believe its easy to find love again I don't. I've been out there, kissed a few frogs, and tried my best to have an open mind. And to be honest, I lean toward taking a break from men rather than replacing xMM with someone new because I don't like to rush into things. Heck, it took a very suave SC a year and a half to get me into bed with him! He really courted me and guys today just don't court women. If I found one who did I might give it a chance.

 

I think posters (in general) are getting the wrong impression about Facebook lurking. She tightened her account up so there is only a profile pic and cover photo. She did look through every one of my albums though, going years back, and used that as evidence to have a meltdown when xMM was staying with me. Lurking goes both ways. In fact xMM told me the night of the meltdown that BW created a special account just to keep tabs on me. I found that account and it depicts a much "happier" account than her real FB account. Mutual friends tell me about things too and when I relay those things here posters probably assume I got the info from FB, but I think I've only stated that once.

[White Flower]

WOW you are so like me WF' date=' I do this, I wish i didn't, but i do I cannot help it and that is why we cannot understand why the BSs in our situation don't do it. He calls me a witch because i see so many things, but really we are just very intuitive and like to understand how people role. Gets a bit skewed when emotions are deep though sometimes for me anyhow.[/quote']

Yes, it's much easier to help others when we can see them so clearly. I think you know what I mean.

 

Trying to understand the issues of others may be easier and simpler than self analysis. :laugh:

 

Laugh all you want but it's actually true. Most people see things more clearly through others than they do themselves. But as we age we do (hopefully) become more self aware.

[White Flower]

 

I do have trust issues and I keep a watchful eye. I do not feel sorry for me since my days of putting up with Assclown are over. I do however feel sorry for people who set such a low bar for "acceptable" behavior. Especially when it pertains to the people they are close to. I do not speak with my father now, nor do I give anyone with bad character a chance to get close to me.

Who says my bar is low? You? Ok then.

 

I too feel I have the ability to access people right away.

Do you mean assess?

 

People generally show you what they are capable of in time we just think they will never do to us as they do to others because we are so special and we have a bond.

 

I don't think we have a bond, I know we have a bond.

I read once this is the personality type that stays in abusive relationships. They feel they somehow have a "special bond". "They are different","he loves them", he told them so! You are shown the side he feels can best manipulate.

I'm sorry, I would need the reference to the book or article before I can take you seriously on the comparison.

Regardless to how he treats you, he has the capabilities to be shockingly cold and deceptive. 19Ddays shows a man who is absolutely disrespectful and has the capacity to backstab and disrespect not only his wife, but he children. It seems to be all about him. If you cannot see that how someone treats others is just as important as he treats you, then good luck.

 

 

You're right about the shocking aspect of the 19 Ddays. I cannot imagine the pain and humiliation that must have caused BW, but she took him back 19 times (or begged him to stay--who am I to know the dynamics), so it couldn't have been that bad, unless she's just used to humiation.

 

My bar is a little higher, okay, a lot. I think he is scared whitless because he knows I won't tolerate the same behavior. He knows he has to shape up to be with me and that has to be massively difficult for someone as selfish as he is, unless he wants it badly enough and he says he does.

 

It's a real risk for him, because he could either have comfort zone that tolerates just about anything or he can have true love and real respect. I know it's a long shot, so you're preaching to the converted, but deep love makes it a worthwhile shot.

[SoleMate]

White Flower, this is the OM/OW forum, so can you clarify what support or discussion you would like in your involvement with a committed partner? Can you let us know what you would like or find helpful? Would you like us all to acknowledge that not every OW is waiting for her MM? Would you like us to accept that you are not waiting for your MM? Do you want commentary from people who are currently in the same or similar situation? Is there something weighing on your mind?

[KathyM]

I'll just say that I think you've been way too tolerant with this man for way too long. You are expecting him to make major changes in his philosophy and behavior that he hasn't been motivated to make in, what, 40 years? That's how long he's been cheating on his wife? Why you want to put your trust in and devote your life to a man who is so screwed up, and has been for so long, is hard to comprehend. Real, lasting, change, for a man who is 65+ years old, who has such engrained patterns would be hard to come by. Perhaps you somehow identify with a broken man or have a rescuer mentality that won't allow you to let this man go. I don't know what keeps you tied to this man, but I don't think it's wise to invest your life and your hopes in a man who has such an engrained pattern of dysfunction.

Edited June 19, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Got it]

Just thought I'd discuss what is really going on and how things have changed, both here and in my life...for those who expressed interest.

 

I am not back with xMM. He has issues (obviously) and I will not be in a R of any kind with him unless and if he can work those issues out. I do talk with him but am not seeing him. If you want to call that a R be my guest.

 

In the meantime I am dating, back in school, work full time, volunteer, work on home improvements, and am surrounded by a wealth of family and friends. Life is good.

 

xMM has been in IC and has retained a lawyer; in case you doubt it I have the electronic receipt. I will not go with him to his IC, even though I have recently been invited again, until I see the growth that I need to see for myself. I will not hold his hand through is FOO issues as long as he is technically M. People say the OW puts up with crumbs but not this one. He can eat MY crumbs.

 

I am not reformed nor do I believe I did anything wrong; it is not my responsibility to save the M of a woman I do not know. Nor is it the responsibility of any woman. I do not blame my exH's new W for seducing him while we were still M nor do I hold her responsible in any way. She and I are great friends now and do things together separately from my ex. That happens when you have good people skills. And I recognize when two people are right for each other as is the case for my exH and his new W.

 

I have waved the white flag to BW and invited her to call me any time she wants the truth because I have never wanted anything hidden. Believe what you like but I am an open book.

 

I do not post all day on any site, yet there are sites I visit. I left LS for a couple years because I was too busy to post. Same with other sites. Look at the stats if you have the time. I don't. I even stepped down as mod on a site due to the time constraints I have. Today I have a bit of time, so I am posting today.

 

And lastly, let's talk about love. How anyone can blast people for loving someone is beyond me. Why is it ok for a BW to love a jerk but not the OW? Why is it not ok to expect growth from a lover from the viewpoint of the OW instead of the BW? Who says M makes the love correct? If you need to believe that, be my guest. I won't force my beliefs down your throat if you don't force yours down mine. But I've BTDT and I have plenty experience from both a long term M (it would have been 28 years this summer) and a long term A to know what love is and who I need to be in a R with. FTR, it may or may not be with xMM (see above requirements).

 

SM - not to speak for WF, but maybe starting with the original post.

 

It seems the questions are posed around Love and the correctness of love in regards to different relationship types.

[White Flower]

White Flower, this is the OM/OW forum, so can you clarify what support or discussion you would like in your involvement with a committed partner? Can you let us know what you would like or find helpful? Would you like us all to acknowledge that not every OW is waiting for her MM? Would you like us to accept that you are not waiting for your MM? Do you want commentary from people who are currently in the same or similar situation? Is there something weighing on your mind?

 

I started a thread in Infidelity a while back as a fOW and the mods moved my thread here anyway so I figured I'd just start my threads here.

 

I get that people say that I'm an OW because we are in contact but I don't sleep with him or meet up for lunch. But that is going to change this week because he wants me to go to his IC with him and he also wants to discuss living arrangements. Seeing the IC intrigues me and we will see about the rest. If it goes well I will consider myself back in his life as his OW, his only woman. If it doesn't, then I'm back to LC and reassessments...or not. But talks have been positive this week and have caused a change of heart about going to his IC appt.

Edited June 19, 2013 by White Flower
Typo

[xxoo]

He knows he has to shape up to be with me and that has to be massively difficult for someone as selfish as he is, unless he wants it badly enough and he says he does.

 

What will happen if he mistreats you? If he, for example, leaves, moves in, and then starts drifting back toward his wife?

 

Is there a point where you would turn your back and say, "Enough!"

 

Where is that point?

[White Flower]

I'll just say that I think you've been way too tolerant with this man for way too long. You are expecting him to make major changes in his philosophy and behavior that he hasn't been motivated to make in, what, 40 years? That's how long he's been cheating on his wife? Why you want to put your trust in and devote your life to a man who is so screwed up, and has been for so long, is hard to comprehend. Real, lasting, change, for a man who is 65+ years old, who has such engrained patterns would be hard to come by. Perhaps you somehow identify with a broken man or have a rescuer mentality that won't allow you to let this man go. I don't know what keeps you tied to this man, but I don't think it's wise to invest your life and your hopes in a man who has such an engrained pattern of dysfunction.

 

This is what concerns me about psychology majors who think this way KathyM. IME you should go into it with the hope and determination that anyone can change if they want to, and xMM wants to. He's got several years of IC under his belt now, read many books, and honestly changed quite a bit, believe it or not.

 

Before I met him he was quite the scoundrel, having five women in his life at any given time plus or including his W, all sexual partners. Most of those PAs dwindled to occasional phone calls with each OOW when I came along but I didn't like the open doors so I demanded he shut those tightly or I walk. Actually, FTR, I walked first then he asked what it would take for me to come back so I said give me the pw to your secret email account so I can see for myself you're telling the truth. Old and current emails don't lie and he indeed was not cheating on me. The story goes on and I won't bore you but I'm demonstrating how I know where he's been and how far he's come.

 

His world narrowed down to BW and me. I made their M better at that point, and our R better, because he cut out all the extra phone calls (and temptations).

 

After Dday 2 or 3 he went into IC and really tried to get out of the M but had not worked out all his issues and went back "to really try on the M without an OW in the mix", and I believe he proved to himself that he gave it his best shot once and for all. He's in a better place with himself about leaving and doesn't feel coerced by me since went went NC. That's progress. He may not come through but at least he has really examined it all, has really cut me off in order to do it, and has made peace that the decision to stay was a mistake and the decision to leave is the right one.

 

KathyM, what are you going to say to a 60+ year old man who walks into your office and says he wants help and wants to change? Are you going to tell him he's too old and stuck in his ways?

 

I sure hope not. I know I wouldn't.

[White Flower]

SM - not to speak for WF, but maybe starting with the original post.

 

It seems the questions are posed around Love and the correctness of love in regards to different relationship types.

 

I looked at the directory for SM and couldn't find it:confused:

 

But I do thank you for your keen observation.

[2sunny]

Has he informed his W yet?

 

Is there any reason why he won't live on his own when he leaves the marital home?

[KathyM]

This is what concerns me about psychology majors who think this way KathyM. IME you should go into it with the hope and determination that anyone can change if they want to, and xMM wants to. He's got several years of IC under his belt now, read many books, and honestly changed quite a bit, believe it or not.

 

<Snip>

I'm a realist, and while I know people can change if they are motivated enough, and I have worked with clients who have made positive changes in their life, I would be naïve not to acknowledge that personality disorders and some patterns learned very early on in childhood are very resistant to change. The fact that this man has had a very engrained pattern of behavior that has lasted for over 40 years does not bode well for being a psychologically healthy relationship partner.

 

You say he has been in counseling for many years, but still has a way to go before he is at a healthy state enough to be in an exclusive relationship with you makes me think that this man is too much of a gamble to build a healthy relationship with. Some patterns are very engrained and resistant to change. Why would you waste your life on a scoundrel? He may have dropped the four other OW to comply with your wishes, but he's still a cheater. He still is. I don't think it's wise to gamble on a cheater. What I have found IRL is that men who change for the purpose of winning over a woman usually go back to the same bad habits as soon as they get the woman, or soon thereafter.

 

Do you really want to be a watchdog for this man for the rest of your life? The parent who keeps the immature boy in line? I don't think it's wise to invest your life in such a man. There are healthy men that don't need fixing who are relationship material without years of therapy required to fix them. I would never advise a client to marry or partner with a man who has a personality disorder or some other major psychological issue. Serial cheaters tend to be very Narcissistic. They have a sense of entitlement. They are very self centered and always put their needs ahead of others. That is not a man to build a relationship with. Perhaps he has made some progress after years of therapy, but not nearly enough.

 

As I said, personality disorders, such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, is very engrained. If a man that was 65+ came into my office for counseling to work on narcissistic traits, I would know I have my work cut out for me, and that the prognosis for change under such circumstances, would not be good. That's the reality. Of course I would help him on building empathy and relationship skills, but I wouldn't kid myself into thinking that, after all this time, he is likely to change.

 

Personality disorders are very resistant to change. Many psychologists, including my professors, realize this and don't even take on such clients.

Edited June 20, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Added paragraphs and removed large quoted post to make it easier to read

[Pierre]

This is what concerns me about psychology majors who think this way KathyM. IME you should go into it with the hope and determination that anyone can change if they want to, and xMM wants to. He's got several years of IC under his belt now, read many books, and honestly changed quite a bit, believe it or not.

 

Before I met him he was quite the scoundrel, having five women in his life at any given time plus or including his W, all sexual partners. Most of those PAs dwindled to occasional phone calls with each OOW when I came along but I didn't like the open doors so I demanded he shut those tightly or I walk. Actually, FTR, I walked first then he asked what it would take for me to come back so I said give me the pw to your secret email account so I can see for myself you're telling the truth. Old and current emails don't lie and he indeed was not cheating on me. The story goes on and I won't bore you but I'm demonstrating how I know where he's been and how far he's come.

 

His world narrowed down to BW and me. I made their M better at that point, and our R better, because he cut out all the extra phone calls (and temptations).

 

After Dday 2 or 3 he went into IC and really tried to get out of the M but had not worked out all his issues and went back "to really try on the M without an OW in the mix", and I believe he proved to himself that he gave it his best shot once and for all. He's in a better place with himself about leaving and doesn't feel coerced by me since went went NC. That's progress. He may not come through but at least he has really examined it all, has really cut me off in order to do it, and has made peace that the decision to stay was a mistake and the decision to leave is the right one.

 

KathyM, what are you going to say to a 60+ year old man who walks into your office and says he wants help and wants to change? Are you going to tell him he's too old and stuck in his ways?

 

I sure hope not. I know I wouldn't.

 

Most men that are womanizers slow down as they get old due to inability to have erections. But, I give him credit.

[White Flower]

What will happen if he mistreats you? If he, for example, leaves, moves in, and then starts drifting back toward his wife?

 

Is there a point where you would turn your back and say, "Enough!"

 

Where is that point?

 

That point was brought in early in this thread, hence my apprehension, hence my willingness to speak with his IC. I like the idea of him having his own place.

[SidLyon]

I can't quite remember but didn't he leave his wife a year or two ago and either you lived together, or were a public couple, for perhaps several months?

 

If I'm correct then why did he return to his wife and marriage, when he'd actually implemented his "exit"?

 

Aren't you concerned the same thing would happen again, especially if he lives with you? For this reason alone, getting his own place sounds like the best thing for you, if you don't want to to risk too much again.

 

Sorry if I've got this wrong and please correct me if so.

[Got it]

I looked at the directory for SM and couldn't find it:confused:

 

But I do thank you for your keen observation.

 

Sorry, shortened SoleMate to SM.

[White Flower]

Sorry, shortened SoleMate to SM.

 

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

[White Flower]

I'm a realist, and while I know people can change if they are motivated enough, and I have worked with clients who have made positive changes in their life, I would be naïve not to acknowledge that personality disorders and some patterns learned very early on in childhood are very resistant to change. The fact that this man has had a very engrained pattern of behavior that has lasted for over 40 years does not bode well for being a psychologically healthy relationship partner. You say he has been in counseling for many years, but still has a way to go before he is at a healthy state enough to be in an exclusive relationship with you makes me think that this man is too much of a gamble to build a healthy relationship with. Some patterns are very engrained and resistant to change. Why would you waste your life on a scoundrel? He may have dropped the four other OW to comply with your wishes, but he's still a cheater. He still is. I don't think it's wise to gamble on a cheater. What I have found IRL is that men who change for the purpose of winning over a woman usually go back to the same bad habits as soon as they get the woman, or soon thereafter. Do you really want to be a watchdog for this man for the rest of your life? The parent who keeps the immature boy in line? I don't think it's wise to invest your life in such a man. There are healthy men that don't need fixing who are relationship material without years of therapy required to fix them. I would never advise a client to marry or partner with a man who has a personality disorder or some other major psychological issue. Serial cheaters tend to be very Narcissistic. They have a sense of entitlement. They are very self centered and always put their needs ahead of others. That is not a man to build a relationship with. Perhaps he has made some progress after years of therapy, but not nearly enough. As I said, personality disorders, such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, is very engrained. If a man that was 65+ came into my office for counseling to work on narcissistic traits, I would know I have my work cut out for me, and that the prognosis for change under such circumstances, would not be good. That's the reality. Of course I would help him on building empathy and relationship skills, but I wouldn't kid myself into thinking that, after all this time, he is likely to change. Personality disorders are very resistant to change. Many psychologists, including my professors, realize this and don't even take on such clients.

That was a very long way to say you just don't believe people can change IMHO. AFAIK there is no personality disorder diagnosed but as I demonstrated there have been real changes and I wouldn't be talking to him if there weren't.

 

The above post has me thinking you just ought to put a sign on your door that says sorry, if you're 60+ we have no hope for you. It's age discrimination in my opinion.

[White Flower]

Most men that are womanizers slow down as they get old due to inability to have erections. But, I give him credit.

 

So do I.:bunny:

[Owl]

That was a very long way to say you just don't believe people can change IMHO. AFAIK there is no personality disorder diagnosed but as I demonstrated there have been real changes and I wouldn't be talking to him if there weren't.

 

The above post has me thinking you just ought to put a sign on your door that says sorry, if you're 60+ we have no hope for you. It's age discrimination in my opinion.

 

No...actually I think Kathy has a valid point to consider.

 

We've all heard of the stereotypical bachelor man who lives in his momma's basement...and how they rarely develop into excellent marital partners and fathers.

 

That's because personality tends to develop and remain static after a certain point in one's life.

 

We're pretty much who we're going to be by the time we're 30.

 

He's who he's going to be at 65+, for darn sure. He's had several DECADES of life to set him in his ways...DECADES of SUCCESSFULLY conducting infidelity as a means to "get what he wants".

 

COULD he change? Maybe.

 

IS HE LIKELY TO? Certainly not.

 

It's a bad bet...and honestly some wishful (almost self-deluding) thinking on your part to believe that it's very likely at all...in fact, I'd agree with Kathy's observation that it's highly unlikely at this point in his life.

 

Sorry if that seems harsh...but she's raising some excellent points to consider.

[White Flower]

I can't quite remember but didn't he leave his wife a year or two ago and either you lived together, or were a public couple, for perhaps several months?

 

If I'm correct then why did he return to his wife and marriage, when he'd actually implemented his "exit"?

I'll answer and try to keep it OT while doing so.

 

His "exit" was not executed with me. We talked about his leaving but we didn't set it in stone. He just basically showed up one day and I couldn't believe it. I was not happy! I can be spontaneous and go with the flow and I even love the guy but this move in didn't happen under my terms. Then while he was with me I noticed something I hadn't noticed about him before, something his W never figured out nor his daughter who is a psychologist. He was suffering from anxiety and now so many things over the years made sense to me.

 

His anxiety coupled with the duty bound engrained nature triggered a relapse of thinking he could be happy in the M home but within 24 hours he was hating himself and full of regret. I OTOH was relieved. I wanted a healthier guy if he was going to be in my life and I encouraged him to talk to his IC about taking anti-anxiety meds. He was on them 24 hours later and continued IC. Everything about that man is better now. No more road rage, pacing, other idiosyncrasies and he's thinking more clearly and calmly.

Aren't you concerned the same thing would happen again, especially if he lives with you? For this reason alone, getting his own place sounds like the best thing for you, if you don't want to to risk too much again.

 

Sorry if I've got this wrong and please correct me if so.

No I think your suggestion is a good one. As I noted, the anti-anxiety meds have helped him to see things more clearly and he is more focused on what is right for him and how he will carry on. I, OTOH, am the one feeling a little anxious. I'm even anxious about meeting him in the coming weeks to discuss it all as I've gotten very used to LC with minimal visits.

[JustJoe]

No...actually I think Kathy has a valid point to consider.

 

We've all heard of the stereotypical bachelor man who lives in his momma's basement...and how they rarely develop into excellent marital partners and fathers.

 

That's because personality tends to develop and remain static after a certain point in one's life.

 

We're pretty much who we're going to be by the time we're 30.

 

He's who he's going to be at 65+, for darn sure. He's had several DECADES of life to set him in his ways...DECADES of SUCCESSFULLY conducting infidelity as a means to "get what he wants".

 

COULD he change? Maybe.

 

IS HE LIKELY TO? Certainly not.

 

It's a bad bet...and honestly some wishful (almost self-deluding) thinking on your part to believe that it's very likely at all...in fact, I'd agree with Kathy's observation that it's highly unlikely at this point in his life.

 

Sorry if that seems harsh...but she's raising some excellent points to consider.

I agree with you , Owl, and have said so to WF numerous times. Her refusal to see this man for what and who he is, (although I'm sure influenced by her love) is what keeps her from truly committing to any other potential relationships. WF will wait for this guy for years, but won't give other men (who might be better ) a chance. It is her decision, granted, but I'm not sure that it is a healthy way to live.

[Got it]

I agree with you , Owl, and have said so to WF numerous times. Her refusal to see this man for what and who he is, (although I'm sure influenced by her love) is what keeps her from truly committing to any other potential relationships. WF will wait for this guy for years, but won't give other men (who might be better ) a chance. It is her decision, granted, but I'm not sure that it is a healthy way to live.

 

And who are week to monday morning quarter her decisions and her life? I don't see her requesting it? And I say this with all gentleness but I definitely believe that neither you nor I am really in a place to claim experts on always making healthy life choices, are we?

 

At the end of the day WF is where she wants to be. She is a smart lady who knows the facts of her situation. If she is choosing to wait, think, or give any consideration to him then that is her choice to make. At the end of the day, she will be the one to own her life choices and should be left to it. While I may not agree with everything she or others do, I will defer to them to make, especially at this point in the discussion, the best choices for themselves.

[JustJoe]

And who are week to monday morning quarter her decisions and her life? I don't see her requesting it? And I say this with all gentleness but I definitely believe that neither you nor I am really in a place to claim experts on always making healthy life choices, are we?

 

At the end of the day WF is where she wants to be. She is a smart lady who knows the facts of her situation. If she is choosing to wait, think, or give any consideration to him then that is her choice to make. At the end of the day, she will be the one to own her life choices and should be left to it. While I may not agree with everything she or others do, I will defer to them to make, especially at this point in the discussion, the best choices for themselves.

I agree that it is her decision. I also agree that she is a wonderful Lady. I also have never said that I was any kind of expert on relationships. But I DO have an opinion, and would appreciate the courtesy of being allowed to express it.

[White Flower]

OP, as you apparently have experienced a betrayal by your now exH, and have resolved that dynamic and continue to interact with him and his new wife (fOW), how would you characterize the difference in feelings about that dynamic versus the dynamic with the MM you're speaking of in this thread?

I would characterize the difference in feelings as love versus indifference. When indifference sets in you simply do not care anymore, but in my experience one cannot force indifference; it grows on its own. My exH killed my love for him over and over. I'm a tenacious lover by nature and will work to resolve all problems big and small but if you're constantly met with lack of respect and caring it just dies and once it's dead indifference is born.

 

The dynamic with xMM is quite different. There is a great sense of respect and caring despite what anyone says regarding our history of breakups. He listens, he cares, and the love is still there. Not to get OT but his only problem hindering the continuous care and respect is his M. Other than that we have a beautiful R. And his leaving his M will cause a healthier R to flourish and grow. If indifference had set in with either one of us there wouldn't be a different dynamic.

In the case of your exH, you've apparently detached and have no unfinished business with him; with MM, you've asserted you aren't 'waiting' for him and have very specific parameters and boundaries for any future interactions.

 

What I'm trying to understand is the emotional part; how the feelings describe the difference between 'waiting' and 'not waiting'.

 

Since you're dating, it's possible you might meet an available man with whom you find chemistry and compatibility. If that happens, how would you process the emotions of progressing that versus the current status quo with MM?

I did find someone that I shared chemistry and compatibility with, but it lacked the love and intimacy I shared with xMM. I believe I threw myself in wholeheartedly especially since we had so many things in common but it just wasn't the be all end all R for me. With xMM we could talk about anything big and small and have the most incredible discussion over it. I think after discovering his past discussing it caused a huge trust between us and a strong bond. He'd never shared that stuff with anyone and he didn't know that he could without fear of judgment. This is intimacy. And intimacy can't be found just anywhere as it takes two individuals who want it and trust each other enough to develop it. Btw, BW found something indicating our intimate bond and she told their MC that she desperately wanted that kind of intimacy in their M...but did nothing to nurture that. I suppose it's too much work for some people, especially the judgmental types.

I'll give an example from past life: In quiet moments over the years, moments of personal time, as we (fMW and I) had shared many 'I love you's', I would sometimes quietly say that to myself, including her name. It was almost a reflex. I would do that even though 99% of the time she never entered my conscious thoughts. Now, sometimes the 'I love you' leaks out, generally a feature of my emotional style, but there's no name on the end of it. My subconscious isn't bringing her up anymore. It's gone. For myself, that's one way how I define the difference between 'waiting' and 'not waiting', emotionally. Another example is when those e-mail viruses invade her or her family member's e-mail accounts and send out spam to their address book, causing e-mails with their names to appear in my mailbox, as I never eliminated contact means, rather we simply ended contact. Before, in years past, I would 'feel' something when seeing those names, without even knowing what the e-mail was; after 'waiting' ended, I process it as neutral (no 'feeling') and know it's not them and clean up the e-mails and move on, not even looking at them.

 

Do you have any examples that you can share? I find the emotional components of these processes fascinating, especially how they are different for each of us. I understand if you'd prefer not to get into such subjects, but it was on my mind.

Clever way to stay OT with your questions!

 

I believed it was over for us even though I still loved him and wanted it to be over. Contrary to popular belief around these parts I know this man is a handful! Having said that I was moving along, dating, and got kinda serious with a new guy. Then a bouquet of roses were delivered to my house on Valentine's Day and at first I thought the flowers were from the new guy as the card said ILY with his initial, the same initial as xMM. I almost thanked the new guy! But I called the florist who said the processing number on the card came from an <insert xMM's first and last name> and I was floored, I mean really angry. I was outraged. My daughter didn't know what to do with me. This told me I was not indifferent and I still had feelings. I'm not sure having feelings for someone equates to waiting for someone but I do get that one can still yearn for them.

 

As an aside, the new guy had not said ILY but hinted along those lines the night before Valentine's Day. He was moving a bit fast for me. And his bouquet came later that afternoon.

 

I received a love letter from xMM a couple of weeks ago and again there were feelings, so had we not been talking and I got a spam email from him yes I probably would have felt a flutter in my heart. I can't help that. Perhaps it would take years for me to get where you are regarding indifference toward this man.

 

On a further note, I don't think my xH was capable of deeper more intimate love whereas I know xMM is. I suspected his potential in this area from the beginning and sure enough it was there. Once you know something so precious as intimacy exists it feels like a malformation in the universe that it isn't nurtured or continuing. One hates to see stagnancy when beauty should be there.

Edited June 19, 2013 by White Flower
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