Not every OW is 'waiting'

[findingnemo]

I am reading this thread with interest. If I posted my interaction and thoughts about xMM, I believe some posters would say I am waiting. And yet I know that I'm not waiting... Yes, I still love the man, yes I still think of him and if he had a problem and reached out to me I would help him. I would do quite a lot for him. This isn't because I'm waiting, it's because I love him. Isn't this what WF is doing?

 

Then on the issue of whether he can change or not, we really don't know. It seems he is working on himself and needs to sort out a lot of personal stuff in IC. IME, people who change are those who acknowledge there is a problem and then try to find a solution. Most people don't put in the effort and simply accept life as it is. The likelihood of such people changing at any age is nil. WF's MM has certainly put in the work and is still doing so. The likelihood of him changing is actually quite high. Yes, he could reach a certain point and just give up, but if he keeps going he will change.

 

Lastly, what if he really does have a personality disorder? First of all, I think pschology today isn't an exact science. I'm not even sure it qualifies to be called a science. But let's, for argument's sake, assume MM has one or more disorders. Does having a disorder mean he should not be loved by WF and the BW? Does learning he has a disorder somehow change WF's feelings for him? Since when are we all supposed to love perfect people?

 

Yes, MM is imperfect. Yes he is a cheater who also suffers from anxiety. MM has to some extent made WF's and the BW's lives a mess. Based on WF's posts, it is clear to see that MM is no saint and deserves a lot of anger. How many people do we know in our lives who are just like that and we still love them? Loving MM is not the same as waiting.

[xxoo]

Why are you even on the fence about it his offer to move in?

 

I understand that you want the whole thing. I understand that you are hoping for big change. But giving attention to him when he is falling so short of meaningful change is essentially coddling.

 

Years ago, I pointed out to a therapist "improvement" I saw in someone. And the therapist pointed out that the person was so far behind, and the improvement was so slow (baby steps), and that the person's peers were already miles ahead and getting farther ahead every day (because we ALL continue developing). How will he ever catch up with you, already miles behind, and taking a tentative baby step for every one of your self-assured leaps?

 

He needs to know that this pace won't cut it. Your waiting tells him this pace is ok for now.

 

"Contact me when the papers are filed and you have you've moved into your own place--and not before." would work.

Edited June 21, 2013 by xxoo

[ComingInHot]

WF, you sound like a woman who Knows herself Very well at this point in your life* With that, I am going to assume (I know, sometimes a foolish thing to do) that you have some sort of vision of how you want/hope your future to look like.

 

I see (after Nemo's post) how you may Not be "waiting" rather you are a good friend loving this, this... individual. (Sorry, from your posts, MM sound like a turd)* Anyway, I know you care deeply for him as well as for yourself so I ask, how do out see/hope things go for You?

 

Please don't be defensive this time. I'm Not being a pot-stirrererer, or provoking, just would like some sincere insight into You* I have definitely heard Enough about MM & his W. But I don't feel I have much on You yet.

 

I think in your feeling other posters are attacking or disagreeing or harsh, your responses mirror the same and Your "soul" so to speak gets lost in translation. I can't say I blame you sometimes. Been there myself

 

So? What do you see for You?**

[Pierre]

Loving MM is not the same as waiting.

 

OK!

 

Why write many posts to say there is no wait. Sounds like rationalization.

 

No big deal! All of us rationalize.

[KathyM]

I am reading this thread with interest. If I posted my interaction and thoughts about xMM, I believe some posters would say I am waiting. And yet I know that I'm not waiting... Yes, I still love the man, yes I still think of him and if he had a problem and reached out to me I would help him. I would do quite a lot for him. This isn't because I'm waiting, it's because I love him. Isn't this what WF is doing?

I would describe "waiting" as still wanting to be together with the MM, and keeping that door open, hoping that you will someday be together and he will be out of his marriage. I think that is exactly what WF is doing, which is why many people believe she is still waiting.

Then on the issue of whether he can change or not, we really don't know. It seems he is working on himself and needs to sort out a lot of personal stuff in IC. IME, people who change are those who acknowledge there is a problem and then try to find a solution. Most people don't put in the effort and simply accept life as it is. The likelihood of such people changing at any age is nil. WF's MM has certainly put in the work and is still doing so. The likelihood of him changing is actually quite high. Yes, he could reach a certain point and just give up, but if he keeps going he will change.

Where is the change in this man? Maybe his anxiety is under control from the medication he takes, but the real issue is his character/core values, or lack thereof. He is still playing happy husband, lying to his wife, carrying on an emotional affair behind his wife's back, and showing no remorse for this duplicitous life. He has a long way to go in the empathy, remorse and accountability department.

Lastly, what if he really does have a personality disorder? First of all, I think pschology today isn't an exact science. I'm not even sure it qualifies to be called a science. But let's, for argument's sake, assume MM has one or more disorders. Does having a disorder mean he should not be loved by WF and the BW? Does learning he has a disorder somehow change WF's feelings for him? Since when are we all supposed to love perfect people?

No one's perfect, and we all have our concepts of what we will tolerate in a man. There are women who love hardened criminals and gangbangers, and rationalize it with "no one's perfect." Everybody has their standards, I guess it's just a matter of what you are willing to tolerate. This MM's wife is certainly a highly tolerant person, which is why he stays with her all these years, because she is tolerant of his cheating. Generally, people with narcissistic traits do not make for good relationship partners. They tend to put themselves first and think their needs/wants are more important than others. They have a sense of entitlement and unreasonable expectations of others, and expect everyone else to comply with their wishes. They take advantage of others and are unwilling/unable to recognize or identify with the feelings of others. They're arrogant, and put themselves/their needs ahead of others. That doesn't make for an equal relationship, or a loving/giving relationship. NPD people do not make good relationship partners, because, to them, it is all about them. They are not thinking about the needs of others, they are thinking about how their needs can be met.

Yes, MM is imperfect. Yes he is a cheater who also suffers from anxiety. MM has to some extent made WF's and the BW's lives a mess. Based on WF's posts, it is clear to see that MM is no saint and deserves a lot of anger. How many people do we know in our lives who are just like that and we still love them? Loving MM is not the same as waiting.

I'm sure there are traits about the man that she does love, but his lack of empathy, lack of remorse, and other narcissistic traits make him a poor risk as a relationship partner.

[jlola]

Everytime someone mentions personality disorders it is talked by some as though we are crying wolf. But when 9% of a population is Cluster B personality it is high! Considering 9% of the U.S. is latino, it gives you an idea of how prevalent ClusterB is. How many may be involved with one, but really have not read up on what it is, how to identify it, or the emotional toll and destruction they cause to so many around them. It is no joke! I was raised by such a person and everyone thinks we are such exaggerators or selfish children. Till they get the full load of them. My father spent one months with a friend who has known him for 30 yrs,now lives in Hawaii with his wife. He is not allowed back there because they finally saw who he was after spending so much time with him.

 

Then there is my cousin who decided to nurse him while he was sick. she thought he was a really great guy also. After 2 months of milking her kindness and getting her pity,she finally realized who he was. she had no idea of personality disorders. But when I mailed her a link, she thought it was spot on. The more you spend long stretches of time with him, the more you realize how selfish,manipulative,liar he is. how he pits people against each other for fun and giggles. Unfortunately, most people cannot or will not ,check on his lies. So he gets away with his tall tales.

 

The Relationship Destroyers: Cluster B

 

 

 

In considering individuals who create the most damage to social and personal relationships, the abusers, manipulators, “players”, controllers, and losers are found in Cluster B.

In the general population, the largest number of personality disorders fall in the Cluster B group. The four personality disorders in Cluster B are:

 

Antisocial Personality

 

Borderline Personality

 

Histrionic Personality

 

Narcissistic Personality

 

Personality Disorders are present in 10 to 15 percent of the adult population, with Cluster B accounting for approximately 9 percent based on research. At such a high percentage, it’s important that we learn to identify these individuals in our lives. A failure to identify them may create significant risk. While most of our contact with a Personality Disorder may be brief, the more involved they are in our lives, the higher the risk of emotional, social, and other damage. For this reason, it’s helpful to identify some of the characteristics of a personality disorder.

[JustAReformedGirl]

 

 

 

In considering individuals who create the most damage to social and personal relationships, the abusers, manipulators, “players”, controllers, and losers are found in Cluster B.

In the general population, the largest number of personality disorders fall in the Cluster B group. The four personality disorders in Cluster B are:

 

Antisocial Personality

 

Borderline Personality

 

Histrionic Personality

 

Narcissistic Personality

 

Personality Disorders are present in 10 to 15 percent of the adult population, with Cluster B accounting for approximately 9 percent based on research. At such a high percentage, it’s important that we learn to identify these individuals in our lives. A failure to identify them may create significant risk. While most of our contact with a Personality Disorder may be brief, the more involved they are in our lives, the higher the risk of emotional, social, and other damage. For this reason, it’s helpful to identify some of the characteristics of a personality disorder.

 

Hmm...this concerns me, slightly. o.O My AP is under the impression he fits into Antisocial, Narcissistic, and Borderline. I'm not sure if he actually does; he has a very low opinion of himself, so it's possible he's deluded himself into thinking that. But, I can't discount it. Guess I'll have to keep an eye on that.

 

As to WF: I've read a great deal of the posts, and liked many of yours. Even though I also found logic with some of the posts that countered yours, I can say it looks like you've made a great deal of personal growth in your situation. I'd say you're not actively waiting for your former AP. If he smartens up, you'll consider having more with him-but you're not pining for him, which I think makes a great deal of difference. You're a very strong person. In life in general, I hope to develop that kind of strength of my own, for each situation I face. So, kudos to you.

[canuckprincess]

Tell me BOTR,

 

If As are so harmful then why does the BW keep taking him back? If she is willing to "harm" herself then why is her pain then my responsibility?

 

As the ow I must agree with you, I just wonder why the bs thinks I should be held more accountable for the affair. Why should I put her happiness ahead of mine? I didn't set out to harm mm's wife, I fell in love so here I am 7 and a half years later.

[findingnemo]

OK!

 

Why write many posts to say there is no wait. Sounds like rationalization.

 

No big deal! All of us rationalize.

 

This is true. We all rationalize, a defense mechanism? Maybe.

 

I write a lot of posts. I came here years after ending the A. It wasn't because I was waiting for xMM to suddenly, in the future, change his mind. It was because I needed to understand the dynamics of an A. Why he did what he was doing, and why I did what I did. I also wanted to stop feeling. That, in fact, was my battle. I thought I was abnormal because I still loved the man.

 

So I posted and posted. I changed my mind constantly about what I would do. I rationalized a lot when I came here. As I read more on LS and as I changed my attitude towards the "problem" I discovered something. XMM was not the be all end all of my life. My constant fight to stop loving him made him a daily focus. I stopped fighting it and accepted it.

 

No more fighting what is. No more wishing for what isn't and no more attempting to control our R. All I did was decide what my values are, continue to exercise self-control and live my life fully. Now I won't consider an A. I will not go against my values and even though he is not with me, I'm a much happier person now than in the A.

 

For me to be stressing over xMM is to create a self-induced problem. I am happy with my choices. He is happy with his. If one day something happens and he is free (and I'm available and still love him), then maybe we could be together. Even then, we would have our share of problems. Life wouldn't magically become better because of him. My happiness, my security, my state of mind all depend on me.

 

I recognize that in WF. She posts because she needs to discuss things while on her path. She needs support to remain faithful to herself even when she still loves xMM and he is having problems. I know for a fact that it can be done. Just because one is in love doesn't mean they have to be in an EA or PA. It is still possible to care about someone without crossing your boundaries. But it is the hard road to take. The easier road is to get rid of that person altogether. So WF, like me, needs support to stay the course even if that course is slightly different from the norm.

[findingnemo]

I would describe "waiting" as still wanting to be together with the MM, and keeping that door open, hoping that you will someday be together and he will be out of his marriage. I think that is exactly what WF is doing, which is why many people believe she is still waiting.

 

Where is the change in this man? Maybe his anxiety is under control from the medication he takes, but the real issue is his character/core values, or lack thereof. He is still playing happy husband, lying to his wife, carrying on an emotional affair behind his wife's back, and showing no remorse for this duplicitous life. He has a long way to go in the empathy, remorse and accountability department.

 

No one's perfect, and we all have our concepts of what we will tolerate in a man. There are women who love hardened criminals and gangbangers, and rationalize it with "no one's perfect." Everybody has their standards, I guess it's just a matter of what you are willing to tolerate. This MM's wife is certainly a highly tolerant person, which is why he stays with her all these years, because she is tolerant of his cheating. Generally, people with narcissistic traits do not make for good relationship partners. They tend to put themselves first and think their needs/wants are more important than others. They have a sense of entitlement and unreasonable expectations of others, and expect everyone else to comply with their wishes. They take advantage of others and are unwilling/unable to recognize or identify with the feelings of others. They're arrogant, and put themselves/their needs ahead of others. That doesn't make for an equal relationship, or a loving/giving relationship. NPD people do not make good relationship partners, because, to them, it is all about them. They are not thinking about the needs of others, they are thinking about how their needs can be met.

 

I'm sure there are traits about the man that she does love, but his lack of empathy, lack of remorse, and other narcissistic traits make him a poor risk as a relationship partner.

 

All this is true of a narcissistic person. As you said, we all have our standards. I don't understand women who fall in love with incarcerated criminals and correspond with them for years. To me, it's crazy and unthinkable.

 

I guess my question is this. If xMM is going to IC and is working towards a solution, why isn't that acknowledged as change? If his anxiety was the main cause of his indecision and it is now coming under control, how come that isn't considered change?

 

People change but sometimes the change isn't enough. Maybe this will be the case. But as he is in the process of making that change, I see nothing wrong with WF giving him support. She just has to ensure she doesn't lose herself while doing it. She knows this and so she posts here.

 

Maybe xMM lacks empathy, maybe he lacks a whole lot more. Since he is in IC I hope that when WF goes, she will find out what the true assessment is. I doubt that it will be an earth shattering discovery e.g. He is a sociopath. It is likely FOO issues as well as his character strength or lack thereof. Whatever it is, through IC they will much closer to figuring things out than doing nothing. At that point, WF will have enough information to decide if she wants to keep the friendship going or get out. She will know whether xMM is truly capable of changing or not.

[KathyM]

All this is true of a narcissistic person. As you said, we all have our standards. I don't understand women who fall in love with incarcerated criminals and correspond with them for years. To me, it's crazy and unthinkable.

Yes, crazy and unthinkable. We don't see what these women could possibly see in these incarcerated men. To most people, the negative would far outweigh any positive, and the risks involved in a relationship with such a person would be too great. To many of us, this is how we see the OPs situation with the MM, that it is crazy and unthinkable to invest your hopes and trust in a man who is a serial cheater and has a 40 year history of cheating on his wife, through 19 DDays, and he continues to lie and cheat on her. To most people, that would be crazy and unthinkable to try to have a monogamous relationship with such a person.

I guess my question is this. If xMM is going to IC and is working towards a solution, why isn't that acknowledged as change? If his anxiety was the main cause of his indecision and it is now coming under control, how come that isn't considered change?

You and WF see him as an xMM, but he is still very much in an emotional affair with her, and still very much in contact with her and lying/deceiving his wife. He pretends to be the happy family man, going to social events with his wife and pretending to be faithful, all the while trying to involve his AP in counseling and trying to convince her to allow him to move in.

People change but sometimes the change isn't enough. Maybe this will be the case. But as he is in the process of making that change, I see nothing wrong with WF giving him support. She just has to ensure she doesn't lose herself while doing it. She knows this and so she posts here.

 

 

Maybe xMM lacks empathy, maybe he lacks a whole lot more. Since he is in IC I hope that when WF goes, she will find out what the true assessment is. I doubt that it will be an earth shattering discovery e.g. He is a sociopath.

I doubt her going to sit in on a counseling session with the MM and his therapist is going to shed a lot of light on the real issues for her. The therapist's loyalty is with her client. She (the therapist) won't be saying something that is not in keeping with her client's wishes. She should have her own therapist if she wants to evaluate the situation clearly and examine the evidence of whether or not he has changed sufficiently to take such a risk in taking him in.

It is likely FOO issues as well as his character strength or lack thereof. Whatever it is, through IC they will much closer to figuring things out than doing nothing. At that point, WF will have enough information to decide if she wants to keep the friendship going or get out. She will know whether xMM is truly capable of changing or not.

She will not know if he is capable of changing until she takes on the risk of letting him move in with her and have a real relationship with her, and time will tell if he has truly changed. If he has what it takes to be a quality, loving, giving, trustworthy partner who is not going to bail on her when disagreements or difficulties in their relationship arise. Who is going to put her needs ahead of his own. IMO, it's crazy and unthinkable that a man who has a lifetime history of lying to and cheating on his wife with multiple women and who is still conducting an affair behind his wife's back, is going to become a trustworthy, loving, caring, reliable partner once he leaves his wife. To put your trust in such a man is not wise, IMO.

[jlola]

They say character is set in stone. this man's has shown nothing but appaling character. even now, he is leading his ife on UNTIL WF allows him to move in with her. He only seems to want a soft spot to land.

 

It is all about him. If not, he would have found a place,even if it is a room,told his wife he wants a divorce and worked on himself while going through the divorce. But nope, he needs someone there waiting.

 

I have to say this. I used to think American women were tough on their men ,therefore American men were respectful. I thought the men in my culture treated women badly because we accepted it. Now I realize there are disrespectful men everywhere.

 

I allow certain people into my life. It may sound tough, but "When someone shows me who they are" especially numerous times and they show lack of character. I do not have time for them. I will not even pick up my phone. For someone to show me what MM hs shown WF for years is ridiculous.

 

I will never forget in my early 20's being involved with a man I should not have been. The best advice I got was "Why is a beautiful girl like you, involved with a man like this"? "You cannot pull men of low character up, they will pull you down into their mess, because it is easier for him to pull you down, then for you to pick him up"!

 

That stayed with me forever. It was from someone I barely knew. But I see how people are always trying to pull others up and meanwhile taking years to understand they are being pulled down into the lies,manipulations,headgames,gaslighting,betrayals.

 

Life is too short to hang on hoping someone will eventually be fixed. My mother did that for years and that loyalty got her nowhere!

[MissBee]

I will never forget in my early 20's being involved with a man I should not have been. The best advice I got was "Why is a beautiful girl like you, involved with a man like this"? "You cannot pull men of low character up, they will pull you down into their mess, because it is easier for him to pull you down, then for you to pick him up"!

That stayed with me forever. It was from someone I barely knew. But I see how people are always trying to pull others up and meanwhile taking years to understand they are being pulled down into the lies,manipulations,headgames,gaslighting,betrayals.

 

Life is too short to hang on hoping someone will eventually be fixed. My mother did that for years and that loyalty got her nowhere!

 

 

This is the truth!

 

@Nemo's post: I don't think love is the problem here. Maybe self love, but not love of another. No one is perfect indeed, perfection isn't the problem either. We choose what we want to deal with in our lives. Love, even parents loving a child, doesn't mean no discipline, no boundaries, no saying no, no putting your foot down, love doesn't mean accepting everything and love doesn't mean you need to be in a relationship with someone. I think people in dysfunctional scenarios unwittingly choose to be martyrs for a very bizarre kind of "love."

 

Just because you love someone doesn't mean being in a relationship with them is wise, possible or healthy. Self-love allows you to assess this and know when you need to throw the towel in and love from a distance.

Edited June 22, 2013 by MissBee

[White Flower]

WF, you sound like a woman who Knows herself Very well at this point in your life* With that, I am going to assume (I know, sometimes a foolish thing to do) that you have some sort of vision of how you want/hope your future to look like.

 

I see (after Nemo's post) how you may Not be "waiting" rather you are a good friend loving this, this... individual. (Sorry, from your posts, MM sound like a turd)* Anyway, I know you care deeply for him as well as for yourself so I ask, how do out see/hope things go for You?

 

Please don't be defensive this time. I'm Not being a pot-stirrererer, or provoking, just would like some sincere insight into You* I have definitely heard Enough about MM & his W. But I don't feel I have much on You yet.

 

I think in your feeling other posters are attacking or disagreeing or harsh, your responses mirror the same and Your "soul" so to speak gets lost in translation. I can't say I blame you sometimes. Been there myself

 

So? What do you see for You?**

I see for myself a life of peace and harmony....if I remain single. I would love to believe I can share a life with a man (any man in general) which includes that same peace and harmony but realistically it won't be the same. Would I get that if I land up with xMM? Not exactly nor would I with any man because one has to include the activities, plans, and idiosyncrasies of a partner. It can be achieved of course but I'll tell you that living alone (though my house is not empty of people I love) sure is easier. Even BW said she was calmer during her separation. I thought "calmer" was an interesting choice of words but perhaps that related to xMM's anxiety (which had not been diagnosed until I suggested he bring it up with his IC in August). Calm is good, but peace is preferable, and harmony with a life partner would be beautiful.

 

Which brings up what people have seen when we are together. Over the years when xMM and I would go places whether it was a formal function or a casual breakfast people would stare at us and smile when we looked their way. Many people have walked up to us and made the comment that we are obviously in love and we should appreciate that special gift that we have. Keep in mind xMM has had a number of partners over his lifetime but never had this experience so he brought it up with his IC, the first one, who said that people were naturally drawn to the harmony they recognized between us and they want it for themselves. I believe perfect strangers of society have shown xMM something about himself he didn't know and it caused him to think.

 

xMM has been a turd just as many a H/boyfriend/MM/father/brother/lover can be at times. We all have turds in our lives and we love them anyway. I would love to see THIS turd overcome his turdly ways before we land up together and he reassures me that he is working to that end. This morning I brought up the fact that he is still behaving like a remorseful H when he isn't one and that he needs to develop the integrity to change that. He says we can bring it up at his next IC appointment together.

[White Flower]

I don't believe this...

They say character is set in stone.

But I do actually believe this:

"You cannot pull men of low character up, they will pull you down into their mess, because it is easier for him to pull you down, then for you to pick him up"!

xMM has been trying to come to me for months and he's also tried in the past. I wasn't ready then and I'm not quite ready now. When he did come I was quite off guard and we were both a mess and I don't want that happening again. Contrary to popular belief people do learn and grow in these situations even when there is no roadmap.

 

I've seen progress but will continue to assess further.

[White Flower]

Like times a million! Well said. You can not help people like WF's MM. People like him just suck everyone else into their vast black hole.

 

Not if they themselves seek a change.

 

This man has a thousand awesome qualities but you focus on one negative thing, something he is trying to change about himself, and he has successfully stopped many aspects of the SC life years now.

 

I would like to ask you (the general you) why it is you hope and expect your WSs to change but you don't hope and expect other WSs to change? I suspect it's because my xMM has become a character for you, someone you can take potshots at. Be my guest but you don't know him.

Edited June 22, 2013 by White Flower
Typo

[MissBee]

Not if they themselves seek a change.

 

This man has a thousand awesome qualities but you focus on one negative thing, something he is trying to change about himself, and he has successfully stopped many aspects of the SC life years now.

 

I would like to ask you (the general you) why it is you hope and expect your WSs to change but you don't hope and expect other WSs to change? I suspect it's because my xMM has become a character for you, someone you can take potshots at. Be my guest but you don't know him.

 

I'm not a BS....but I think that's not true.

 

If a BS came to LS talking about 19 ddays, serial cheating, an OW of 7 years, divorce then just kidding and all of that, I doubt anyone would advise her that she should hang in there, he'll change one day. Your experience with MM is quite different than most of what BS's here have experienced. There was one BS in the infidelity section, who isn't a regular, who had a serial cheater who seemed stuck in his ways for yeaars, and all the other BSs told her she needed to leave him and stop asking the same question every month about this man. However, most of the other BSs here seemed to have a WS who cheated once, it didn't last for years and years, it wasn't back and forth, and they didn't have multiple ddays.

 

Contrary to what some paint it as: most people try to advise based on the reality and facts presented. I know I do. It doesn't matter if it is an OW/BS/WS. I look at what the situation seems to be saying and respond based on those specifics. No one should blindly advise a BS that the WS will change...no one should blindly expect it. I don't. Change can only be hoped for and then seen with actions overtime. Reconciled BSs, who have done so successfully, seem to have some stuff in common: they put their foot down or kicked the WS out, they didn't tolerate back and forth and multiple ddays and it doesn't seem many of them allowed him to cheat and so on for years with one OW between them like ping pong. It seems like a boundary was set and their needs were delineated and they only stayed with their WS so long as he/she didn't disrespect that boundary and as long as they met that need. Most didn't have a back and forth saga with their WS and an OW/OM or many OW/OM and go on and on in a whole rigmarole. Thus, for many, one can truly see the affair as a blip in an otherwise good relationship versus a continuous pattern, which is what your MM shows.

 

Your situation is particular and people's opinions of it/your MM are based on what is a years long pattern that you've explained and even people who seem to know you more personally are saying the same thing. I think it's unfair to make it seem like people just hate you/him/OW why they are saying what they are saying...when it's not true. Your MM may have lots of good qualities...most people do...but if they have ONE quality which is very damaging, it unfortunately can cancel out and make their other qualities irrelevant. It doesn't seem like this man is capable of being a good, stable, reliable partner for ANYONE. It's not just you. Not to his BS, not to any other woman who will come along. So he may be nice, sweet, whatever else, but if he for years can't get it together...then it's up to the women in his life to keep waiting for his "small changes" to add up to something substantial one day....or not. My question to you and his wife would be: what is SO special about this man, of all the other men on the planet, why he is worth all this back and forth and hope for change?

Edited June 22, 2013 by MissBee

[xxoo]

Not if they themselves seek a change.

 

This man has a thousand awesome qualities but you focus on one negative thing, something he is trying to change about himself, and he has successfully stopped many aspects of the SC life years now.

 

This one negative quality would be a deal breaker for most women, and for good reason. It's terribly destructive to people and relationships. It analogous to an otherwise wonderful guy who is an alcoholic. He can love you, and you can have amazing times together, but when push comes to shove, the addiction rules. When push comes to shove, this guy's issues rule.

 

People can change, but generally need to reach rock bottom first. As long as you answer his calls and take interest in what he has to say, he doesn't reach rock bottom. That's enabling his issues. He doesn't need to do the REALLY hard work, because you don't require it. You did require him to give up other women, but you didn't require him to give up his marriage--and you can see the results. He gave up the former, but not the latter.

[MissBee]

This one negative quality would be a deal breaker for most women, and for good reason. It's terribly destructive to people and relationships. It analogous to an otherwise wonderful guy who is an alcoholic. He can love you, and you can have amazing times together, but when push comes to shove, the addiction rules. When push comes to shove, this guy's issues rule.

 

People can change, but generally need to reach rock bottom first. As long as you answer his calls and take interest in what he has to say, he doesn't reach rock bottom. That's enabling his issues. He doesn't need to do the REALLY hard work, because you don't require it. You did require him to give up other women, but you didn't require him to give up his marriage--and you can see the results. He gave up the former, but not the latter.

 

Great post!

 

Completely true.

 

"One negative quality" makes it seem like it's something trivial, like he leaves socks on the floor. If a man's "one negative quality" is something so destructive and embedded such as: he is a serial cheater, alcoholic, hits you but only when he's angry, but otherwise he's a great guy....that should be a deal breaker IMO, and for most people it is.

 

People can change, but MM in question has had no real consequences or incentives to do so. If he doesn't change he will still have his wife and WF. Yes, maybe WF kinda puts her foot down about some things, but it's not enough, evidently, and maybe the wife does too...but at the end of the day, in how many years has he had REAL consequences? How many times has he truly been left ALONE to fend for himself after his nonsense? How many times have WF/BS turned their back on him completely forcing him to hit rock bottom? If WF turns her back, the wife is there to pick him up. If the wife turns her back...WF will be there to talk to him and have faith in him. He has it made it seems and can spend the rest of his days doing the bare minimum to change.

[White Flower]

This one negative quality would be a deal breaker for most women, and for good reason. It's terribly destructive to people and relationships. It analogous to an otherwise wonderful guy who is an alcoholic. He can love you, and you can have amazing times together, but when push comes to shove, the addiction rules. When push comes to shove, this guy's issues rule.

 

People can change, but generally need to reach rock bottom first. As long as you answer his calls and take interest in what he has to say, he doesn't reach rock bottom. That's enabling his issues. He doesn't need to do the REALLY hard work, because you don't require it. You did require him to give up other women, but you didn't require him to give up his marriage--and you can see the results. He gave up the former, but not the latter.

I'll bet you haven't considered for a minute that rock bottom could hit at the marital home long before he contacted me. He said he hit rock bottom 24 hours after he moved back in and has been numb ever since.

 

I did not "require" him giving up his M because the AR suited me at the time. It simply bores me now. He knows what that means.

 

He didn't give up the latter but he did give up his happiness. He'll decide which direction that "rock bottom" will take him.

[White Flower]

This is true. We all rationalize, a defense mechanism? Maybe.

 

I write a lot of posts. I came here years after ending the A. It wasn't because I was waiting for xMM to suddenly, in the future, change his mind. It was because I needed to understand the dynamics of an A. Why he did what he was doing, and why I did what I did. I also wanted to stop feeling. That, in fact, was my battle. I thought I was abnormal because I still loved the man.

 

So I posted and posted. I changed my mind constantly about what I would do. I rationalized a lot when I came here. As I read more on LS and as I changed my attitude towards the "problem" I discovered something. XMM was not the be all end all of my life. My constant fight to stop loving him made him a daily focus. I stopped fighting it and accepted it.

 

No more fighting what is. No more wishing for what isn't and no more attempting to control our R. All I did was decide what my values are, continue to exercise self-control and live my life fully. Now I won't consider an A. I will not go against my values and even though he is not with me, I'm a much happier person now than in the A.

 

For me to be stressing over xMM is to create a self-induced problem. I am happy with my choices. He is happy with his. If one day something happens and he is free (and I'm available and still love him), then maybe we could be together. Even then, we would have our share of problems. Life wouldn't magically become better because of him. My happiness, my security, my state of mind all depend on me.

 

I recognize that in WF. She posts because she needs to discuss things while on her path. She needs support to remain faithful to herself even when she still loves xMM and he is having problems. I know for a fact that it can be done. Just because one is in love doesn't mean they have to be in an EA or PA. It is still possible to care about someone without crossing your boundaries. But it is the hard road to take. The easier road is to get rid of that person altogether. So WF, like me, needs support to stay the course even if that course is slightly different from the norm.

Have I thanked you for this post? Well, thank you.

 

I like what you said about life not magically becoming better because of him. My IC said that a partner should not complete your life but be a bonus to it and I agree. When xMM tried to move in last summer it was I who was not ready for him. He sensed it and I'm sure he didn't get a good vibe. I wasn't the soft landing spot one might assume I was, it wasn't on my terms and I was so relieved when he left. I'm in a much better place now and after xMM's IC visit this week I think he is closer too.

 

I have agreed to go to the next IC visit. perhaps that will firm up my perspective on things.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

This is true. We all rationalize, a defense mechanism? Maybe.

 

I write a lot of posts. I came here years after ending the A. It wasn't because I was waiting for xMM to suddenly, in the future, change his mind. It was because I needed to understand the dynamics of an A. Why he did what he was doing, and why I did what I did. I also wanted to stop feeling. That, in fact, was my battle. I thought I was abnormal because I still loved the man.

 

So I posted and posted. I changed my mind constantly about what I would do. I rationalized a lot when I came here. As I read more on LS and as I changed my attitude towards the "problem" I discovered something. XMM was not the be all end all of my life. My constant fight to stop loving him made him a daily focus. I stopped fighting it and accepted it.

 

No more fighting what is. No more wishing for what isn't and no more attempting to control our R. All I did was decide what my values are, continue to exercise self-control and live my life fully. Now I won't consider an A. I will not go against my values and even though he is not with me, I'm a much happier person now than in the A.

 

For me to be stressing over xMM is to create a self-induced problem. I am happy with my choices. He is happy with his. If one day something happens and he is free (and I'm available and still love him), then maybe we could be together. Even then, we would have our share of problems. Life wouldn't magically become better because of him. My happiness, my security, my state of mind all depend on me.

 

I recognize that in WF. She posts because she needs to discuss things while on her path. She needs support to remain faithful to herself even when she still loves xMM and he is having problems. I know for a fact that it can be done. Just because one is in love doesn't mean they have to be in an EA or PA. It is still possible to care about someone without crossing your boundaries. But it is the hard road to take. The easier road is to get rid of that person altogether. So WF, like me, needs support to stay the course even if that course is slightly different from the norm.

 

This is well said very much applies to me - I'm "getting there". I had someone say to me once " this sooner your accept that he is a part of your life and always will be (whether he is physically here or not), the better off you will be." I was constantly trying to fight it and the same thing happened - he was then a constant part of my thoughts daily. I had to really begin to live MY life without him in it. Once I started to do that, it became a bit easier. I do not wait for XMM - not anymore. I love him, but I am not putting my life on hold for him.

[xxoo]

I'll bet you haven't considered for a minute that rock bottom could hit at the marital home long before he contacted me. He said he hit rock bottom 24 hours after he moved back in and has been numb ever since.

 

I'm sure it could hit then. But when it does, it will be apparent in actions, not just words.

[White Flower]

This is well said very much applies to me - I'm "getting there". I had someone say to me once " this sooner your accept that he is a part of your life and always will be (whether he is physically here or not), the better off you will be." I was constantly trying to fight it and the same thing happened - he was then a constant part of my thoughts daily. I had to really begin to live MY life without him in it. Once I started to do that, it became a bit easier. I do not wait for XMM - not anymore. I love him, but I am not putting my life on hold for him.

 

Awesome lilmiss!

[White Flower]

I'm sure it could hit then. But when it does, it will be apparent in actions, not just words.

 

Obviously, as in retaining lawyers and bringing me into his IC's office to reassure me. I'm the one who needs to be convinced, I'm not twisting his arm or forcing a time table.

 

Those that push a MM/WH off the fence only get a confused, messed up man. I'd rather let him stew in the mess he chose under those circumstances until he figures out what he really wants. Fence-pushing only throws a man on his azz. He's too dumbfounded to think. Fence pushers crack me up every time.