Not every OW is 'waiting'

[mercy]

It's everyone's responsibility to do no harm to others, whether we know them or not.

 

 

Thank God I don't understand your thinking because I would hate to not care about others.

 

The more I read about unrepentant OW, the happier I am to be me.

 

Just simply beautifully stated. Thank you.

[mercy]

Her reasons are none of your business. The fact is you helped cause her how many DDays?

 

Sometimes we have to be the better person and walk away if our actions are going to harm another. And make no mistake, affairs ARE harmful.

 

I'm still paying the price.

 

Yes, that too.

[White Flower]

Are you sure you didn't mean , contorted?

 

Or that :laugh:

[KathyM]

He has not been diagnosed with a personality disorder by either of his counselors. (He switched due to insurance change, thank goodness).

Oftentimes, personality disorders are specified as something else, such as anxiety disorders, for insurance purposes, because some insurance companies do not cover personality disorders. If it were a true anxiety disorder, then how would that manifest into serial cheating? Makes no sense. I'm guessing it's more like NPD, but whatever.

You must not have read where I explained how he has indeed changed, but he isn't quite there yet. A plant grows in increments, not 10 feet in one day because I say so.

I just don't see it from what you wrote. He is still with his wife, playing the role of happy husband from what you've described, while secretly calling you and pursuing you behind his wife's back, while showing no remorse to either woman. That doesn't sounds like progress to me.

Psychologists today aren't using the word cheater, or haven't you heard yet? xMM's IC said that is the old school way of thinking and the psychological community is now calling it "seeking your happiness". He is now encouraging xMM to recognize this and challenging him to consider what he values most; duty and companionate love or happiness and consummate love.

Couples' therapists would not use that term "seeking your happiness" in reference to infidelity, since it would be disrespectful to the betrayed spouse. Perhaps independent counselors would try to use softer terms so as not to upset the WS. But this is not a counseling session, and cheater is a term readily used on LS and IRL, so I'm not sure why you expect me not to use it on this message board.

Words like cheater and scoundrel are not used in the psychological circle, not professionally anyway.

I'm aware of that. This is not a psychological session, it is a message board.

Are you preaching to the concerted? This is why I am going to sit in on xMM's next session. I want to know how he or they are planning on preventing any old patterns from recurring, even though I know xMM hasn't had any OOW since before me with the proof that I found.

 

I want nothing in common with BW. Besides being from the same race I don't see that happening.

 

I don't either, not the one you are depicting. Not the one you assume my xMM is.

 

You are presuming that all SC (and fSC) are all the same. xMM is not NPD. Both ICs said he demonstrated overwhelming compassion and guilt to have NPD. His biggest problem is not knowing how to stop beating a dead horse, nor does his W. wanna talk CODA? I'll buy that.

Where is his compassion and guilt when he is joking around with his wife on the way to a social event, shortly after calling to check in with you in secret? I don't see any evidence of remorse for what he's doing to his wife. He is still stringing her along while pretending to want to stay with her, and while trying to make plans with you behind her back. Where is the remorse for this? There is none. It's the same old, same old, stringing both women along with no remorse.

[2sunny]

Since he hasn't told his wife yet - there's still no evidence that anything has changed - it's just talk and no action.

 

If he plans to move - my suggestion is for him to be out on his own.

[Pierre]

It is really funny and quite odd to me that certain posters are willing to believe the bad stuff (19 Ddays) but not the good stuff (positive change and growth). I guess people believe what they want. Be my guest, but don't offer me advice if you're stuck in your own negative belief system.

 

I think philanderers tend to slow down as they become older because the need for sex and variety goes down. However, it is difficult to change the core of a personality.

 

Not many OWs wait out 19 d-days. Nevertheless, hopefully this time things will work out. I wish you the best.

[cocorico]

He has not been diagnosed with a personality disorder by either of his counselors. (He switched due to insurance change, thank goodness).

 

You must not have read where I explained how he has indeed changed, but he isn't quite there yet. A plant grows in increments, not 10 feet in one day because I say so.

 

Psychologists today aren't using the word cheater, or haven't you heard yet? xMM's IC said that is the old school way of thinking and the psychological community is now calling it "seeking your happiness". He is now encouraging xMM to recognize this and challenging him to consider what he values most; duty and companionate love or happiness and consummate love.

 

Words like cheater and scoundrel are not used in the psychological circle, not professionally anyway.

 

Are you preaching to the concerted? This is why I am going to sit in on xMM's next session. I want to know how he or they are planning on preventing any old patterns from recurring, even though I know xMM hasn't had any OOW since before me with the proof that I found.

 

I want nothing in common with BW. Besides being from the same race I don't see that happening.

 

I don't either, not the one you are depicting. Not the one you assume my xMM is.

 

You are presuming that all SC (and fSC) are all the same. xMM is not NPD. Both ICs said he demonstrated overwhelming compassion and guilt to have NPD. His biggest problem is not knowing how to stop beating a dead horse, nor does his W. wanna talk CODA? I'll buy that.

 

Codependency can keep people trapped. I hope he is able - and motivated - to get beyond that.

[2sunny]

Codependency can keep people trapped. I hope he is able - and motivated - to get beyond that.

 

He... And WF.

 

Remember she is waiting - and therefore at the mercy of what the married other man may or may not do...

[jlola]

I think philanderers tend to slow down as they become older because the need for sex and variety goes down. However, it is difficult to change the core of a personality.

 

Not many OWs wait out 19 d-days. Nevertheless, hopefully this time things will work out. I wish you the best.

 

 

No they do not slow down. First of there is "Viagra". Second, it is not about sex, it is about attention and control. It is about the high of having something "new". You are correct, core personality is hard to change .My mother thought my father would change as he got older and her reward would finally see how she stuck by him through thick and thin.

 

She did not realize he is a selfish narcissist and it is all about him. She did not realize everytime he swore to change,go to therapy he was just buying time and he would go right back to his normal behavior once he felt it safe.

 

Also, people like that tend to understand the more time you invest in a "bad relationship" the more in denial you are .

 

I still get so angry at my mother when she acts as if my father is really this decent person deep down inside. She cannot or refuses to believe what he has shown us is ho he really is. She will recite times he is kind to people or has been nice or says he is sorry. he hangs onto the good and minimizes the very bad side. the side that shows lack of respect,empathy, selfishness and so on .

 

I cannot understand ho so many people still think my father is a great guy. they see how he treats his family. The very ones he should cherish, but somehow they blame his wife and kids for his behavior. i do not speak with many members of my family because of that. Blame the victims because he treats them like "crap'. they must be doing something wrong or are just so horrible. Meanwhile e are such good people. Look how he treats us.

 

I feel many people are so needy of validation they ignore character. "As long as he treats us well, who cares how he treats others", has become ok.

[xxoo]

It is really funny and quite odd to me that certain posters are willing to believe the bad stuff (19 Ddays) but not the good stuff (positive change and growth). I guess people believe what they want. Be my guest, but don't offer me advice if you're stuck in your own negative belief system.

 

I imagine his wife sees a lot of improvement in him over the years as well. It gives her hope, too.

 

Obviously, it isn't doing her a lot of good either.

[MissBee]

No they do not slow down. First of there is "Viagra". Second, it is not about sex, it is about attention and control. It is about the high of having something "new". You are correct, core personality is hard to change .My mother thought my father would change as he got older and her reward would finally see how she stuck by him through thick and thin.

 

She did not realize he is a selfish narcissist and it is all about him. She did not realize everytime he swore to change,go to therapy he was just buying time and he would go right back to his normal behavior once he felt it safe.

 

 

Also, people like that tend to understand the more time you invest in a "bad relationship" the more in denial you are .

 

I still get so angry at my mother when she acts as if my father is really this decent person deep down inside. She cannot or refuses to believe what he has shown us is ho he really is. She will recite times he is kind to people or has been nice or says he is sorry. he hangs onto the good and minimizes the very bad side. the side that shows lack of respect,empathy, selfishness and so on .

I cannot understand ho so many people still think my father is a great guy. they see how he treats his family. The very ones he should cherish, but somehow they blame his wife and kids for his behavior. i do not speak with many members of my family because of that. Blame the victims because he treats them like "crap'. they must be doing something wrong or are just so horrible. Meanwhile e are such good people. Look how he treats us.

 

I feel many people are so needy of validation they ignore character. "As long as he treats us well, who cares how he treats others", has become ok.

 

 

I could have posted this word for word about my own mother, and 2 friends I have. Funnily, it seems the people in these bad relationships are in them for the long haul, come hell or high water, they are the eternal optimists clinging to any ephemeral strand of hope and change on the horizon....meanwhile years have gone by and all those "small changes" don't seem to add up to a dollar in that long time.

 

My dad showed himself to be questionable before he and my mom ever married. They have been together since her early twenties, they're both in their mid-late fifties, and she is still waiting for a miracle, for him to change, after all his affairs. She too uses examples of when he did this or that nice thing but doesn't look at the whole history of over 20 something years of a pattern of negative behavior. Yepp...the longer you're with such a person, whether you have been their longtime mistress or wife, the more in denial you become.

 

My dad doesn't have one specific OW who he keeps going back to, but if he did, she would be the same kind of woman like my mom. My dad is going nowhere. He has had several opportunities, like WF's MM, my own mom even threatened divorced and drafted papers, and he begged her back and stayed. He himself has NEVER initiated divorce or talks of divorce and has never gone off with an OW. Over the years he has seemed to change for a week or a month, cries, goes to counseling...then it's back to square one.

 

The most frustrated people are my sister and I....my mom, although she complains, she is right where she wants to be still thinking that this almost 60 year old man will spontaneously change. My mom has a problem for loving this kind of man and allowing his behavior, his OW are mostly short term, so I can understand how they are fooled, because he is charming and so on and they don't have his whole history in front of them; however, if he had one specific OW who was a years long side woman, she would be suffering from the same issue as my mom. Neither are better than the other...both are clinging to a man who has shown himself to have tons of issues and both are hoping for change. Both love a jerk and chances are, the reasons that allow them to love and desire such a jerk are similar.

 

Nothing is wrong with being positive or hopeful. I'm a very optimistic person, but also very realistic as well and I don't believe I can love someone out of their issues. I will love you from afar but I have a time limit on nonsense personally and won't give ANY man years of my life to play games...sorry. I watched my mom do it, I read women on LS doing it, and it is just very sad...but fortunately, for the one's doing it they seem the least bothered, so I'm like *shrug*, you obviously like it...so hey, enjoy.

Edited June 20, 2013 by MissBee

[2sunny]

It is really funny and quite odd to me that certain posters are willing to believe the bad stuff (19 Ddays) but not the good stuff (positive change and growth). I guess people believe what they want. Be my guest, but don't offer me advice if you're stuck in your own negative belief system.

 

I don't believe there's change or growth -yet.

 

He's still living with her and his divorce isn't final...so really, nothing has changed.

 

It's all of his empty words with no action so far.

 

Positive change and growth would look much different than what you've described.

 

IF his divorce were final and he learned how to be happy on his own - THENid say he would have positive things to add to your life.

 

Right now hestillhasYOU right where you've always been- waiting and wondering - and so full of hope that you're still lying to yourself about what is real.

 

He's still with HER!

[White Flower]

It would be easier to be thrilled for you WF if he were moving out on his own.

 

Is there a reason why he's not willing to be on his own and date you?

 

Just so you know, I don't post to get thrills.

[White Flower]

He... And WF.

 

Remember she is waiting - and therefore at the mercy of what the married other man may or may not do...

 

Haha, you're funny 2sunny! Ignore the whole thread then say I'm at his mercy! In your dreams honey. He is the one wanting to move in in two weeks and I am the one saying no. But go ahead and put your fingers in your ears if it makes you feel better.

[White Flower]

I imagine his wife sees a lot of improvement in him over the years as well. It gives her hope, too.

 

Obviously, it isn't doing her a lot of good either.

 

I actually agree with you on that. I'm sure she sees some good but puts up with way more than I would such as all the secret cell phones or giving me his number after she changes it or taking him back after I told her we just slept together five days in a row including this morning (the day I told her all this). If I were her I'd have set him free years ago as I did with my exH. I do tolerate a lot, I think anyone who loves deeply and is committed to love or M does, but I do feel I have healthier boundaries for our R or any R I am in.

 

I don't feel though that she hopes he'll grow because growing means facing the truth. I think she feels hope that God will change him. She must have forgotten about Free Will and he exercises a lot of it.

[2sunny]

WF - has he told his wife he's divorcing her?

[White Flower]

I don't believe there's change or growth -yet.

 

He's still living with her and his divorce isn't final...so really, nothing has changed.

 

It's all of his empty words with no action so far.

 

Positive change and growth would look much different than what you've described.

 

IF his divorce were final and he learned how to be happy on his own - THENid say he would have positive things to add to your life.

 

Right now hestillhasYOU right where you've always been- waiting and wondering - and so full of hope that you're still lying to yourself about what is real.

 

He's still with HER!

I know you think phrases like "he's still with her" bother me but they really don't. I happen to have my own inner struggle at the moment and though I live him I'm not sure anymore we are going to work out due to MY struggle, not his. If I don't feel good about a possible future with him then he might as well stay with her. I don't think he'll be happy but at least he'll have Plan B.

 

You just don't get that I'm the one on the fence, lol. But whatever floats your boat.

[2sunny]

Why do you have a mean and sarcastic tone in your words?

 

That's unfair of you to respond the way you have been. The first time or two- I thought maybe you were having a bad day - but now I see its consistent and intentional.

 

Care to share what your internal struggle is?

[White Flower]

Oftentimes, personality disorders are specified as something else, such as anxiety disorders, for insurance purposes, because some insurance companies do not cover personality disorders. If it were a true anxiety disorder, then how would that manifest into serial cheating? Makes no sense. I'm guessing it's more like NPD, but whatever.

I don't know how you quantify how it makes no sense that anxiety can't lead to or accompany with serial cheating, which stopped around eight or nine years ago according to the proof that I found. He's a fSC, no longer cheating unless you want to call a few calls to me cheating. He is taking meds for it and is doing much better regarding anxiety, but I've already shared that. I'm sure the anxiety and SC are two separate things but who knows. Maybe I'll ask his IC.

I just don't see it from what you wrote. He is still with his wife, playing the role of happy husband from what you've described, while secretly calling you and pursuing you behind his wife's back, while showing no remorse to either woman. That doesn't sounds like progress to me.

Nor does it particularly sound like lack of progress to me. But I would prefer his calls be out in the open.

Couples' therapists would not use that term "seeking your happiness" in reference to infidelity, since it would be disrespectful to the betrayed spouse.

Sugar coating the truth doesn't help any couple; it only perpetuates the lies that keep many Ms together. But they are not in couples therapy. He is in IC. She quit her IC because her IC said it was quite the norm for men to seek affairs and that some of the marital issues could be her fault.

Perhaps independent counselors would try to use softer terms so as not to upset the WS.

Really KathyM? Come on. He's paying for help not to get cheer leading.

But this is not a counseling session, and cheater is a term readily used on LS and IRL, so I'm not sure why you expect me not to use it on this message board.

 

I'm aware of that. This is not a psychological session, it is a message board.

I think you're confusing people when you tell them you are a counselor but use lingo not specific to your profession. I also think you are damaging your own integrity when you use a different kind of language at home than you would professionally.

Where is his compassion and guilt when he is joking around with his wife on the way to a social event, shortly after calling to check in with you in secret? I don't see any evidence of remorse for what he's doing to his wife. He is still stringing her along while pretending to want to stay with her, and while trying to make plans with you behind her back. Where is the remorse for this? There is none. It's the same old, same old, stringing both women along with no remorse.

This is one of the problems I have tbh. I don't like it one bit and have expressed that to him. It's one of the things that is holding me back. Either tell her you're talking to me or move out so I don't have to call you on it. Problem is though, still, I'm not sure I'm ready. I have an OW friend who absolutely knows when her fMM is coming and she is getting cold feet. Maybe I am too.

[White Flower]

Why do you have a mean and sarcastic tone in your words?

 

That's unfair of you to respond the way you have been. The first time or two- I thought maybe you were having a bad day - but now I see its consistent and intentional.

 

Care to share what your internal struggle is?

 

I could ignore you but I'll answer. You are consistently off topic. I feel you are asking questions in hopes of giving me a rise. You keep saying that I'm waiting and I've clearly stated I have cold feet. Go ahead and keep trying if you have the time and energy but I've got talent to promote and a paper to write, never mind my beauty sleep.

[2sunny]

I could ignore you but I'll answer. You are consistently off topic. I feel you are asking questions in hopes of giving me a rise. You keep saying that I'm waiting and I've clearly stated I have cold feet. Go ahead and keep trying if you have the time and energy but I've got talent to promote and a paper to write, never mind my beauty sleep.

 

No WF - I've stayed on topic- your title is about waiting- or not waiting.

 

I've asked questions for clarity on what's actually happening. You've chosen to avoid answering.

 

None of my typing is to "get a rise". Sheez.

 

Good luck with your situation.

[White Flower]

He... And WF.

 

Remember she is waiting - and therefore at the mercy of what the married other man may or may not do...

 

Married other man? Ha ha ha, you must have your facts confused. Wonder what tabloid you got that from.

[White Flower]

No WF - I've stayed on topic- your title is about waiting- or not waiting.

 

No, it's about not all OP are waiting.

[KathyM]

I don't know how you quantify how it makes no sense that anxiety can't lead to or accompany with serial cheating, which stopped around eight or nine years ago according to the proof that I found. He's a fSC, no longer cheating unless you want to call a few calls to me cheating. He is taking meds for it and is doing much better regarding anxiety, but I've already shared that. I'm sure the anxiety and SC are two separate things but who knows. Maybe I'll ask his IC.

 

Nor does it particularly sound like lack of progress to me. But I would prefer his calls be out in the open.

 

Sugar coating the truth doesn't help any couple; it only perpetuates the lies that keep many Ms together. But they are not in couples therapy. He is in IC. She quit her IC because her IC said it was quite the norm for men to seek affairs and that some of the marital issues could be her fault.

 

Really KathyM? Come on. He's paying for help not to get cheer leading.

 

I think you're confusing people when you tell them you are a counselor but use lingo not specific to your profession. I also think you are damaging your own integrity when you use a different kind of language at home than you would professionally.

 

This is one of the problems I have tbh. I don't like it one bit and have expressed that to him. It's one of the things that is holding me back. Either tell her you're talking to me or move out so I don't have to call you on it. Problem is though, still, I'm not sure I'm ready. I have an OW friend who absolutely knows when her fMM is coming and she is getting cold feet. Maybe I am too.

Well, I just typed out a long response and then lost it, so I'll just say that I'm glad you are hesitant, and evaluating if it really is in your best interests to have this man and put your trust in him. He has shown himself to be untrustworthy, self entitled, and unempathetic to the woman who has put up with him all of these years (his wife). That's not a man to build a trusting relationship with. We're talking 40+ years of infidelity. Basically all of his adult life. The man is either a narcissist, a coward, or both, and neither of those "qualities" makes for a good relationship partner. You should expect more from a man that you are willing to devote the rest of your life to. I don't think it's wise to gamble on a man who is a lifetime liar and cheater. Those are serious character flaws. (And just for the record, I try to limit my psychobabble to the clinic, although my husband and kids say I use too much psychobabble at home.)

[cocorico]

I know you think phrases like "he's still with her" bother me but they really don't. I happen to have my own inner struggle at the moment and though I live him I'm not sure anymore we are going to work out due to MY struggle, not his. If I don't feel good about a possible future with him then he might as well stay with her. I don't think he'll be happy but at least he'll have Plan B.

 

You just don't get that I'm the one on the fence, lol. But whatever floats your boat.

 

WF, cold feet are normal before any big change. You need to be sure you're doing what's best for *you*, not what's best for him. He's already got at base covered.

 

Remember, you owe him nothing. Leaving his M has to be for *him*, not to keep you sweet. So if he's only willing to do it if you'll give him a toasty bed to sleep in and all the home comforts he's used to, that's not OK!

 

Is not OK that he pitches up at yours like a refugee, and it's not OK that he leaves his "home" intact, unchanged. Ready to return to at the drop of a hat, should he choose. Either he's in like Flynn, burns his bridges by selling his "home" and invests his share of the equity in a new home which may or may not be one you choose to share with him.... Or he stays where he is. If he's decided to leave, that choice is on him and he needs to do it properly, otherwise the BW will simply sit around waiting for him to return again, and he'll project onto you the reason for his leaving, and you'll feel obligated to make things easier for him...

 

WF'S you devote your life to doing things for others. I know you can't help it, but really, you need to do what's best for you, for a change. That might be taking him in, it might be chasing him away, it might be telling him to prove himself first, or whatever. But you need to be sure that what you choose to do is, first and foremost, for you.