harrybrown Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I am glad that you are trying. Tell your husband how lucky he is, other men wish that the spouse would at least try. Link to post Share on other sites
Author janedoe67 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 WTHF articulated a question no one has ever actually tried to answer - and by answer I do not mean the standard defensie mantra lecture: Why is it that the spouse whitholding a real marital relationship isn't held to the same scrutiny (as in malice, selfishness, inconsideration, disrespect of their marriage and the agreement they made) standards as the WS? Without the usual, "you terrible WS, you should/shouldn't have...." give me a straight answer as to why my betrayal is so much worse than his FIRST betrayal of withholding the things I could only ethically get from him, ignoring my pleas, choosing not to meet those needs, and making a unilateral decision to make our marriage platonic? I am not doing tit for tat, nor am I saying I was not wrong. I was very wrong. So who decided that one betrayal is infinitely worse than the other. And if HE was the one who didn't want to act married, why couldn't HE be the one to leave? Link to post Share on other sites
BetrayedH Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 WTHF articulated a question no one has ever actually tried to answer - and by answer I do not mean the standard defensie mantra lecture: Without the usual, "you terrible WS, you should/shouldn't have...." give me a straight answer as to why my betrayal is so much worse than his FIRST betrayal of withholding the things I could only ethically get from him, ignoring my pleas, choosing not to meet those needs, and making a unilateral decision to make our marriage platonic? I am not doing tit for tat, nor am I saying I was not wrong. I was very wrong. So who decided that one betrayal is infinitely worse than the other. And if HE was the one who didn't want to act married, why couldn't HE be the one to leave? That's what I meant in post 247. Just like you, he has a choice to either fix the marriage or leave it. I think he should be pressed to do so. Link to post Share on other sites
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 One is not being done behind the others back. I would rather something be done to my face, than sneak behind my back like an impetuous child. He didn't have an issue with the lack of sex, that is why he didn't file for divorce. Link to post Share on other sites
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 FTR I have empathy for your situation. There is no easy answer, life is like that. If your husband is not willing to meet you half way, in regard to an intimate relationship(whatever that means for the two of you) then divorce is an appropriate response. Not easy, appropriate. Link to post Share on other sites
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 They are two separate issues. However, one was done openly. One was done through deception. I liken it to my first marriage. Physical and emotional abuse. Totally xh poor coping skills, however...I had to take responsibility and leave the marriage, as he never was going to...it worked for HIM. Link to post Share on other sites
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I understand that for most, the "protection" lie, is easy to pick up...it sounds and feels so....honourable. It isn't though. One of my favourite quotes is....that which can be destroyed with the truth should be. Is a person in a difficult position if sex is taken off the table....absolutely. I don't however subscribe to selling out ones soul to solve the issue. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
ladydesigner Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 The only thing I will say is this... The "what he doesn't know" thing though pathetic to most BS does carry a lot of weight in most people's minds. In simple terms. Saying terrible things to someone's face instantly hurts the person. Saying it behind the person's back only hurts te person when tey find out and realize you are two faced. It isn't right of course but there is an element of protectinf the BS in doing things behind their back (not for everyone of course). Some people don't like to hear that but it isthe truth. For me, the main reason I almost didn't confess was because doing so would hurt my H deeply. I felt I was protecting him from my actions. But, the need to be an authentic person and give my H the decision to make choices based on all the facts is why I mustered my courage to confess. To say infidelity is worse than a,b,c is a mute point. Comparing it is not helpful. As said, two seperate issues. It does seem like this would not hurt the BS, but when the truth comes out especially if it was found out by the BS, the feelings of angst are tenfold. In my case it wasn't that my WH had an A that bothers me, it is the amount of deception pre and post Dday. The lies he told to my face with a straight face. I won't ever forget it. I'm not sure how a person gets past that part. My WH lied to me about his A post Dday. Everything I found out I did on my own, my WH would have taken it all the way to his grave. Link to post Share on other sites
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 It is only "something picked up" by bitter BS. It is an actual fact and a weight in coming clean post A. It isn't what I believe you shoild go with but it definetly was an honest thought on my part. And WS aren't always 100% evil. And just because your POV that burying the truth is 100% selfish you don't know the person's heart. Yeah sure, some or most is selfprotection. But not all. Is there any particular reason you threw "bitter BS into your post. I have never stated that WS are 100% evil so we agree there. I never used the word selfish, I just said it wasnt honourable as "not wanting to hurt", as the act was already done to hurt. That to tell ourselves that we are doing something to "protect" another by lying about something we did to hurt them is just another lie we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
road Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 WTHF articulated a question no one has ever actually tried to answer - and by answer I do not mean the standard defensie mantra lecture: Without the usual, "you terrible WS, you should/shouldn't have...." give me a straight answer as to why my betrayal is so much worse than his FIRST betrayal of withholding the things I could only ethically get from him, ignoring my pleas, choosing not to meet those needs, and making a unilateral decision to make our marriage platonic? I am not doing tit for tat, nor am I saying I was not wrong. I was very wrong. So who decided that one betrayal is infinitely worse than the other. And if HE was the one who didn't want to act married, why couldn't HE be the one to leave? They are all bad. Some may point out that a BS knows the pain of being a BS. So how can the BS become a WS and inflict such a pain on their WS/now BS spouse that they love. RA's never solve anything. The score can never be evened out by both spouses having an affair each. Keep in mind RA's can happen 10 years later. Link to post Share on other sites
MrWindupBird Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Cheating is hard on everyone. When I left my first wife after cheating on her for a year, it hurt everyone really bad, but I felt like a new life had started. Don't let someone threaten to make things hard for you. You've been making brave decisions for a long time putting yourself ahead of others despite society telling you you're an evil person. Keep being brave and do whatever needs to be done. Link to post Share on other sites
Zenstudent Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Jane; I think you're handling this very difficult situation very well. At least your current problems are out in the open to be dealt with, you can both work on them if you both make that choice. Or you can choose to seperate if the issues are non-resolvable. Infidelity can't be dealt with because the one partner doesn't know about it. Keep working on yourself, continue self reflexion and keep pushing for a solution with you husband - it will be better someday somehow, and you'll be good, with or without your husband. Link to post Share on other sites
Author janedoe67 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 They are all bad. Some may point out that a BS knows the pain of being a BS. So how can the BS become a WS and inflict such a pain on their WS/now BS spouse that they love. RA's never solve anything. The score can never be evened out by both spouses having an affair each. Keep in mind RA's can happen 10 years later. You must not have read this post at all. There was nothing about revenge A's in it. Link to post Share on other sites
road Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 You must not have read this post at all. There was nothing about revenge A's in it. ""Without the usual, "you terrible WS, you should/shouldn't have...." give me a straight answer as to why my betrayal is so much worse than his FIRST betrayal of withholding the things I could only ethically get from him, ignoring my pleas, choosing not to meet those needs, and making a unilateral decision to make our marriage platonic? I am not doing tit for tat, nor am I saying I was not wrong. I was very wrong. So who decided that one betrayal is infinitely worse than the other. And if HE was the one who didn't want to act married, why couldn't HE be the one to leave?"" You must write and do not read what you write. You brought up that who's betrayal is worse. Link to post Share on other sites
Author janedoe67 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 I was very wrong. his neglect and lack of intimacy does not excuse my A I know exactly who to blame for my affair. Me. I made the choice. And no matter what issues I have, I have the power NOT to make such a choice. NOTHING excuses an affair. The choice to cheat is a CHOICE, and it is the cheater who makes it. Yes, they are two separate issues. No, having an affair is not a solution. Yes, my choice is my responsibility. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Jane, as I have already stated. One is done behind the back of the other, taking away choice. That is why most view it more egregious. Not one hurts more than another, or is more deliberate (minus medical/health issues). I understand the frustration of not wanting to be the one to pull the trigger and initiate divorce when you feel that he is the one not holding up his end of the marriage contract. That you THINK it makes you the bad guy for filing. It does not. It just makes you the one that filed. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author janedoe67 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 ""Without the usual, "you terrible WS, you should/shouldn't have...." give me a straight answer as to why my betrayal is so much worse than his FIRST betrayal of withholding the things I could only ethically get from him, ignoring my pleas, choosing not to meet those needs, and making a unilateral decision to make our marriage platonic? I am not doing tit for tat, nor am I saying I was not wrong. I was very wrong. So who decided that one betrayal is infinitely worse than the other. And if HE was the one who didn't want to act married, why couldn't HE be the one to leave?"" You must write and do not read what you write. You brought up that who's betrayal is worse. And where exactly was a revenge affair mentioned? It wasn't. The regurgitated mantra stuff doesn't work if you don;t read the whole post. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author janedoe67 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Quote: I was very wrong. Quote: his neglect and lack of intimacy does not excuse my A Quote: I know exactly who to blame for my affair. Me. I made the choice. And no matter what issues I have, I have the power NOT to make such a choice. Quote: NOTHING excuses an affair. The choice to cheat is a CHOICE, and it is the cheater who makes it. Yes, they are two separate issues. No, having an affair is not a solution. Yes, my choice is my responsibility. And yes, I went behind his back and lied. He at least had the respect to tell me to my face he didn't want to touch me. Besides, we need to work through my infidelities - that is priority one. I know that cheating was MY choice and I am 100% responsible for that. I know that my husband's shortcomings do not in any way excuse my betrayal. In response to justification, nothing justifies my affair. I was not back into a corner. I know I had other choices, and I chose adultery. It was the wrong choice. Link to post Share on other sites
road Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 And where exactly was a revenge affair mentioned? It wasn't. The regurgitated mantra stuff doesn't work if you don;t read the whole post. "give me a straight answer as to why my betrayal is so much worse than his FIRST betrayal " You need to be clearer when you write. Link to post Share on other sites
AlwaysGrowing Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Jane, You are in a bad position, not many would argue that. Only you know how far you can get your husband to move on this issue. And if what you said is correct, then you are left choosing between two options that are not the solution that you truly seek. It does not make you wrong to decide to divorce because you need intimacy. It sucks. It truly does. You have to forgive yourself, and not hold yourself accountable for the lack of intimacy and being okay with divorcing EVEN though you cheated. Its okay. You are allowed to divorce anyways. Its okay....you don't need to defend yourself to any of us. You obviously struggle greatly with what it means to take responsibility. Maybe for you, it means...you do divorce. So that you can live authentically. There is nothing wrong with that choice. If its your truth.....then live it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author janedoe67 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 "give me a straight answer as to why my betrayal is so much worse than his FIRST betrayal " You need to be clearer when you write. If you bothered to read the whole thread you wouldn't be wrong. I am not retelling the whole story....but it was pretty clear in that post that "first betrayal" was his withholding. Sorry, road, you're wrong....I know it's a shock to your system 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BetrayedH Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Jane, something I've been musing on for a few days... Since you started posting here, I've always found your posts to be extraordinarily insightful. I can agree wth nearly all of them and it's remarkable to me how we're nearly always on the same wavelength (even though we come from different points of the triangle). Note: there's a compliment in there for you somewhere. But lately I've noticed a recurring theme with you in regards to BSs "forever" browbeating their waywards, "never-ending" punishment/consequences, and so forth. It's really struck me as odd because for someone who otherwise really seems to "get it," it's very surprising to hear you say things that I interpret as "get over it." I mean, honestly, IME no one wants the BS to be over it more than the BS does. It really stood out to me that you expanded on it in Sofie's thread when she was considering a second meeting with the other BS. No one even suggested that she be forever penitent (it's really just the first proposed mtg since she dropped the bomb on her friend) but you went off on a tangent about there being limits. It didn't mae sense to me and so I started wondering, why. I've wondered if you're viewing your H's lack of intimacy as a punishment. If so, it would make sense that you're desperate for your punishment to end. Personally, I view it as a serious (ultimatum-worthy) but totally separate issue from your affairs. Am I onto anything here? Are you perhaps subconsciously mixing the two issues? How long has it been since you confessed? I mean, my guess is that you're still within the normal 2-5 years for your husband to heal. Where do you think the "never-ending" punishment theme is coming from? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author janedoe67 Posted November 11, 2013 Author Share Posted November 11, 2013 As it turns out, I could use some help. Not sure how to navigate it, but I'm going to at least try. I will respond to the above though. I do not think any BS should just "get over it." I believe that it takes time....a lot of time....to work THROUGH infidelity, and even then sometimes it is just...a dealbreaker that cannot be overcome. That is one of the many foolish risks a person takes when they choose to cheat. It has been said before that WS's tend to have a need for outward validation. I think it is more likely that THAT is what it is about....I know my heart, I know my remorse, I know the pain I have inflicted and have also felt (and not just about the A).....and I sometimes - whether I "deserve" it or not (I despise the word deserve)....just want some validation for TRYING...or at least being a human. But anyway, as I said, I could use help. If I can find it that would be good. If not, I haven't really lost anything. Since the mid-2000's there has always been someone somewhere who thought I was a cheat and only a cheat, so I haven't really lost anything. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
harrybrown Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 We all need help and I appreciate your comments on LS. I do hope that you can forgive yourself, we all make mistakes. What will it take to get your H to become part of the marriage? Has he read any books or received counseling for his lack of affection? I know when I trigger that sometimes I need to get away from my WW, but not all the time. I do realize that this mess changed me and not in a good way. Can your H find ways to help you feel loved? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BetrayedH Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 As it turns out, I could use some help. Not sure how to navigate it, but I'm going to at least try. I will respond to the above though. I do not think any BS should just "get over it." I believe that it takes time....a lot of time....to work THROUGH infidelity, and even then sometimes it is just...a dealbreaker that cannot be overcome. That is one of the many foolish risks a person takes when they choose to cheat. It has been said before that WS's tend to have a need for outward validation. I think it is more likely that THAT is what it is about....I know my heart, I know my remorse, I know the pain I have inflicted and have also felt (and not just about the A).....and I sometimes - whether I "deserve" it or not (I despise the word deserve)....just want some validation for TRYING...or at least being a human. But anyway, as I said, I could use help. If I can find it that would be good. If not, I haven't really lost anything. Since the mid-2000's there has always been someone somewhere who thought I was a cheat and only a cheat, so I haven't really lost anything. For what it's worth, I don't think you're "a cheat and only a cheat." And I've never bought into the "Once a cheater..." or permanent character flaw beliefs that some others hold. You are trying. And you do deserve some recognition for your efforts. I hope your husband gets there. Link to post Share on other sites
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