Are we headed for Reconciliation or Divorce?

[Mrs.S.]

I am sincerely disappointed that he didn't have the courage to share this with you two weeks ago. But what can your husband do if they have been put together because of work? I don't have a hell of a lot of good advice for you tonight. The only thing I do know is that if you return to making her the focus of your energy, you are not putting it into the marriage.

 

You make a good point. I'm disappointed as well. And too confused (no pun intended) to make a rational choice about how to proceed. I believe him, yet it feels like it's just another hit that I'm being forced to take. Not a good feeling. And not the right state of mind to make any kind of decisions. Thanks for your response, I appreciate the honesty of it.

[trippi1432]

Mrs. S - I work in a company where it is corporate policy to report inappropriate relationships. There are many "power couples" in the company; however, per policy, romantic entanglements where one is reporting to another in the same department, is frowned upon and requires HR intervention. In most cases, one person is moved to another department at an equal level, so no one is "reprimanded" for it. HR doesn't have time to be therapists in this case, so I would say his concern about requesting to be removed from the team would indicate something inappropriate going on is his own guilt about his feelings about the situation.

 

Now, speaking on guilt....that typically comes from feelings having morals and values, in which case your husband knows his are questionable. What he decides to do is his decision. Unfortunately, no one here can tell you what to do in your situation. I can only tell you what I would do...I would care less. It is unfortunate that he is put in this position where he can't help it, where he is forced to be in this position; however, he is in control of himself. His complaint about you is being controlling and demanding, you can't control his emotions, feelings or what his decisions are...he makes those of his own free will. So give him his free will and hope that he has good morals and values. When you care less, she won't mean as much to him.

 

In the meantime, you are an executive in a company are you not? I think that I read that somewhere. As much as you would like to save your marriage, which is admirable, at what point do you cut your losses? Digging in and hanging on to a man who has disrespected you and the marriage is not fighting for a marriage. In the day to day exchanges in your own position, getting people to perform to par is expected....that does not work with a spouse, never has, never will. This is where his rebellion is coming from...his own insecurities, emasculation, napoleon complex, take your pick. He is responsible for himself and how he acts upon his own issues.

 

You have responsibility for yourself. In that, to know that you are a desirable and accomplished woman who doesn't need him, but wants him in your life. He can be just as replaceable as he seems to be making you. You have every right to act upon that knowledge and let him know, you are leaving on your trip and you don't agree with the position he is in, but it's his cards that have been dealt him and you trust that he will act with the best of intentions for your marriage. If he fails to do that, you also know that you will be fine to move on and carry on your life knowing that someone out there will respect the relationship you build with them. Respect yourself first.

Edited July 7, 2013 by trippi1432

[It-is-what-it-is.]

You have a couple things going on here. First, while you believe that nothing progressed in your husbands and his AP's relationship, nobody else does. So understand that our advice is based on at minimum the beginning of an EA.

 

I work for a large company. There would be exactly zero backlash if someone in your husbands situation indicated that he was uncomfortable managing someone who is needy and has poor boundaries. Additionally, indicating that it is necessary to not have her report to him even temporarily die to family issues. Awkward, yes, career limiting, no. I guarantee that people have noticed their behavior and would be happier if he was not in a position of power with her reporting to him. If there are consequences then, well, there are consequences. KWIM?

 

The fact that he "decided" that you didn't need to know that that work change occurred is most concerning. You will justify this away, but it is continued poor coping skills. So I assume that those offsite team building workshops and late night work sessions and mentoring calls are all things you don't need to know about because, we'll, it will upset you.

 

I know that you are afraid to be needy or demanding because he has already indicated he's not all in on your relationship and that your being together is still tenuous at best.

 

Now you are going to be out of town.

 

So let me ask you this...what has your husband...the one who caused all of this...offered to do to make you feel safe?

 

What has he done to SHOW you (actions) that you can be safe with him?

 

WHAT CHANGES has he made?

 

See I think you guys rug swept and focused on painting on a happy face and never addressed that he was looking elsewhere for validation. So what happens if you get upset now? Do you feel that you are one day away from having him turn to someone else?

 

How can you leave on vacation knowing he is so weak?

 

There are some Books "not just friends" & "how to help your spouse heal from your affair" and others, but that requires him to admit he was entering into an affair.

 

There are certainly ways to police him when you are gone, but I would want to know what he plans on doing to help you so you can enjoy your vacation? It would tell me a lot.

[Mrs.S.]

I work for a large company. There would be exactly zero backlash if someone in your husbands situation indicated that he was uncomfortable managing someone who is needy and has poor boundaries. Additionally, indicating that it is necessary to not have her report to him even temporarily die to family issues. Awkward, yes, career limiting, no. I guarantee that people have noticed their behavior and would be happier if he was not in a position of power with her reporting to him. If there are consequences then, well, there are consequences. KWIM?

 

I agree. I asked him to say these exact things and he told me that he absolutely couldn't do this without his job suffering repercussions. I told him that it's his fault that he put himself in this position in the first place and he said he knows it is all his fault, without any question. He said he'll keep thinking of a way to get this to end as soon as possible, but any kind of formal complaint would require a formal meeting, full disclosure and paperwork and a mark on his record. I asked him to blame it on her using the poor boundaries excuse you posed and he said that if he said that, his manager would tell him to manage the situation better, especially since it's technically a temporary situation. I understand and believe him that there is no way that he can do this and come out of it unscathed, but I also asked him why, out of the three of us, am I still the only one who has to suffer the consequences. He said he knows it's not fair and that he's doing everything he can do end it without making a scene and having to disclose anything.

 

The fact that he "decided" that you didn't need to know that that work change occurred is most concerning. You will justify this away, but it is continued poor coping skills. So I assume that those offsite team building workshops and late night work sessions and mentoring calls are all things you don't need to know about because, we'll, it will upset you.

 

We talked at length about his lying. He has had lying issues in the past, about minor things, and I told him that I had a nagging feeling that one day it would result in a serious problem. He was extremely ashamed and said he knows that I'm right about it and he's going to make sure that changes. He understands that I have zero reason to believe anything he says right now and that it's his own fault.

 

So let me ask you this...what has your husband...the one who caused all of this...offered to do to make you feel safe?

 

What has he done to SHOW you (actions) that you can be safe with him?

 

WHAT CHANGES has he made?

 

He told me all the details about how he's gone about things with her, all the mistakes he's made while doing it and all the times he does still see her and interact with her at work. Immediately after I found out about her in April, he stopped all talking to her for a week or two (he did stop the texting and personal emails completely from that day on). Then one day they had to talk about a work project (via their intra-office instant messenger) and he was still angry with me about our own issues, so he figured he could handle it and it was fine to open it back up to friendly talking at work. He said after a few days he realized that she was clearly baiting him for attention, like saying she was in a bad mood... and that she was so tired... because she wanted him to ask her why. He knew it had been a bad idea and he stopped completely. He said after that he kept it work-related only and as-necessary and he's been sending her shorter and more curt replies and he never initiates contact with her. He has to say hello when he sees her since he's her manager, but he just keeps walking.

 

He said there are no feelings and attraction anymore at all because it never meant anything to him in the first place and he never had any intention of it being anything more than a short-term means of some attention and excitement. Also knowing what it turned into, what kind of person she actually is and what it did to me/us has made it unappealing to him.

 

We agreed that we are giving ourselves a real chance to make things work. We've given each other lots of "outs" over the past months and it means something that neither of us has taken one. So he is going to be completely honest with me, knowing that I'm very distrustful. He's going to show me any emails between them and messages on their chat. He said he'll answer all questions and keep me updated on the status of her being on his team. He also said that he will request a team change or take further action if she ever ends up on his team permanently.

 

He told me how she's already trying to take advantage of him by asking for longer lunches, extra time off, etc. and he's annoyed as it is. She's also on a disciplinary status for attendance, so he said it's likely she could get fired in the next six months anyway.

 

See I think you guys rug swept and focused on painting on a happy face and never addressed that he was looking elsewhere for validation. So what happens if you get upset now? Do you feel that you are one day away from having him turn to someone else?

 

How can you leave on vacation knowing he is so weak?

 

He has taken three days off from work next week - his dad will be visiting - and he said that there would be no point in starting anything back up with her for a week even if he wanted to and he doesn't. Not to mention he would never ever have any personal communication with someone he is managing anyway. He said that he wants this all to be over as much as I do.

 

I told him this morning that I'm extremely uncomfortable with him going to work today and he said he understands. He's been texting me throughout the day -just light stuff, nothing about her or us- and I know that he's making an effort to make me feel like a part of his day and to take away some of my fear that he's pre-occupied with her while he's at work.

 

We're really making an effort not to rug-sweep, but also not to keep spinning our wheels and having the same arguments every day. We both know that this is the last effort - for both of our sakes. He told me that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing this the right way this time.

 

Time will tell and while I'm away - the truth is, what will happen will happen. I do believe that his lies have been about the work situation, not about him regressing into the friendship and closeness they had before. And that does make a difference, though it doesn't excuse it. Our marriage needs work for reasons other than this thing (which is why I didn't originally post this thread on a different board. I never thought this would turn into the focus) and we can only really help ourselves by focusing on us rather than her. If it's a mistake, well, I'll find out soon enough. But we both want to give us a real chance right now.

 

Sorry for the long post, but you brought up some really good points. Thank you!

Edited July 8, 2013 by Mrs.S.

[hayewils]

I met my stbxw At work.

She was the new incoming HR department.

Feel in love at first sight. I had to be careful i knew.

Over tome, things were great. Two years later we were married.

But things drastically changed.. 4 years has passed since we got married.

I no longer met her expectations and got fired 4 months ago..

Life goes on

[imtooconfused]

We agreed that we are giving ourselves a real chance to make things work. We've given each other lots of "outs" over the past months and it means something that neither of us has taken one. So he is going to be completely honest with me, knowing that I'm very distrustful. He's going to show me any emails between them and messages on their chat. He said he'll answer all questions and keep me updated on the status of her being on his team. He also said that he will request a team change or take further action if she ever ends up on his team permanently.

 

I agree that both of you had ample opportunity to call it quits and yet you are both still working on the relationship. There is a lot to be said for that.

 

I also want to point out that it's usually the partner going out of town that is under suspicion. I assume that's because more men travel than women and of course men are always under suspicion. But it's just as important for you to be open and honest with your husband about what is going on in your life while you are out of the country. By sharing your travel details with him, perhaps your husband will be more open and honest about his dealings with the girl from work.

[Mrs.S.]

I can only tell you what I would do...I would care less. It is unfortunate that he is put in this position where he can't help it, where he is forced to be in this position; however, he is in control of himself. His complaint about you is being controlling and demanding, you can't control his emotions, feelings or what his decisions are...he makes those of his own free will. So give him his free will and hope that he has good morals and values. When you care less, she won't mean as much to him.

 

Trippi - you are so right. I am really going to try to do this. I do believe that the lure of closeness with this girl is over for him. I do think what's left now is residual - the awkwardness, missing the attention and excitement a little, my anger and distrust, his guilt, his struggle between doing the right thing and regaining the feeling of free will, etc. What do I have to lose by caring less about this girl? He already claims he doesn't care at all about her. If I'm wrong in the end, then he's the one who loses, not me.

 

In the meantime, you are an executive in a company are you not? I think that I read that somewhere. As much as you would like to save your marriage, which is admirable, at what point do you cut your losses? Digging in and hanging on to a man who has disrespected you and the marriage is not fighting for a marriage. In the day to day exchanges in your own position, getting people to perform to par is expected....that does not work with a spouse, never has, never will. This is where his rebellion is coming from...his own insecurities, emasculation, napoleon complex, take your pick. He is responsible for himself and how he acts upon his own issues.

 

I am willing to stay and take accountability for my part in the state of our marriage and I'm willing to forgive and accept his mistakes. But I won't forgive and accept further intentional disrespect and damage to our marriage. You're right, I can't force him to think, do, feel or want anything.

 

You have every right to act upon that knowledge and let him know, you are leaving on your trip and you don't agree with the position he is in, but it's his cards that have been dealt him and you trust that he will act with the best of intentions for your marriage.

 

I will make this clear to him before I leave. Also IF he is being completely honest now and has the best intentions, he must feel really crappy about himself and unhappy. He does need as much encouragement and support as I do. If I'm wrong and he's still being deceitful, again, he's the one who loses. I'll have only lost a few weeks, but he'll lose a wife. We are both clear that this time has to be for real or else we need to separate, whether that's temporary or permanent.

 

If he fails to do that, you also know that you will be fine to move on and carry on your life knowing that someone out there will respect the relationship you build with them. Respect yourself first.

 

Oh YES.

[Mrs.S.]

I agree that both of you had ample opportunity to call it quits and yet you are both still working on the relationship. There is a lot to be said for that.

 

I also want to point out that it's usually the partner going out of town that is under suspicion. I assume that's because more men travel than women and of course men are always under suspicion. But it's just as important for you to be open and honest with your husband about what is going on in your life while you are out of the country. By sharing your travel details with him, perhaps your husband will be more open and honest about his dealings with the girl from work.

 

I am- it's never been an issue for him when I travel. In fact he teases me about leaving him an overly detailed booklet of my travel itinerary. We usually talk every day I'm away and we Skype when possible.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Mrs. S

You sound better today. Good!

 

You are right that you cannot control the outcome. It's up to you and Mr. S to invest in your selves, your marriage, resolving the issues and building a strong base.

 

But you know that if it doesn't work, you are strong enough to survive. Good job!

 

Enjoy your vacation.

[Mrs.S.]

Yesterday was better. I won't lie, I'm still extremely uncomfortable with the work situation and insecure in whether we are invested to the same level in wanting this to work, but yesterday was better.

 

He texted me throughout the day yesterday and even though he had to finish something up and stayed at work an extra half hour or so, he apologized and said he wasn't avoiding coming home and explained exactly what he was doing. He came home and showed me all of the emails and chats from her that day. There were a couple of IM chats and he just answered "yes" to her questions and sent her a link to a policy about something. I asked him if he had omitted anything or deleted any emails that I wouldn't like. He said he didn't and that he really wants to start fresh this time, give us an honest chance and get this work situation over with as soon as possible. I told him that I appreciated that he kept in touch with me all day and it helped to make me feel like I was part of his day again. He said that was the idea and he was glad that it helped. That was the extent to which we talked about it and we had a nice evening hanging out at home.

 

This morning I didn't say anything about that stuff, and he asked me if I was ok and told me again that nothing is going on that I don't know about. He said he understands why I'm still uncomfortable and that he'd text me throughout the day when he can.

 

We have a counseling appointment tomorrow morning and I'm a little nervous. We took a very good baby step yesterday, but I'm - and I'm sure he is, too - very aware that this is extremely fragile and could shatter again at any time. And like I said, I know that he's still unsure about whether our relationship has run its course or if we're just going through a marriage growing pain. I think we're both on the same page where even though we know we want it to work, we're also still, in a way, waiting for the other shoe to fall, the one that will end it for good. I hope that feeling goes away if things continue to go well. I think our time apart next week will tell a lot.

[Jstub]

Yesterday was better. I won't lie, I'm still extremely uncomfortable with the work situation and insecure in whether we are invested to the same level in wanting this to work, but yesterday was better.

 

He texted me throughout the day yesterday and even though he had to finish something up and stayed at work an extra half hour or so, he apologized and said he wasn't avoiding coming home and explained exactly what he was doing. He came home and showed me all of the emails and chats from her that day. There were a couple of IM chats and he just answered "yes" to her questions and sent her a link to a policy about something. I asked him if he had omitted anything or deleted any emails that I wouldn't like. He said he didn't and that he really wants to start fresh this time, give us an honest chance and get this work situation over with as soon as possible. I told him that I appreciated that he kept in touch with me all day and it helped to make me feel like I was part of his day again. He said that was the idea and he was glad that it helped. That was the extent to which we talked about it and we had a nice evening hanging out at home.

 

This morning I didn't say anything about that stuff, and he asked me if I was ok and told me again that nothing is going on that I don't know about. He said he understands why I'm still uncomfortable and that he'd text me throughout the day when he can.

 

We have a counseling appointment tomorrow morning and I'm a little nervous. We took a very good baby step yesterday, but I'm - and I'm sure he is, too - very aware that this is extremely fragile and could shatter again at any time. And like I said, I know that he's still unsure about whether our relationship has run its course or if we're just going through a marriage growing pain. I think we're both on the same page where even though we know we want it to work, we're also still, in a way, waiting for the other shoe to fall, the one that will end it for good. I hope that feeling goes away if things continue to go well. I think our time apart next week will tell a lot.

 

He is remorseful. That is sooooo important. This is great! All his actions show that he feels so bad about what he put you through and he is giving it his all to make you feel comfortable.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I know you eluded to there being more to the reason that brought you to the unhappy place. But the phrase you have used several times sorta sticks in my mouth.

 

The relationship has run it's course.

 

You mentioned that you guys talked about divorce early on in your frustrations I believe.

 

I wanna say something...I believe that the option of divorce should not be casually banded about during arguments. I am not against divorce, it is necessary. But I have been married a long long time. We have never said that word in the heat of an argument. It sort of is the nuclear option, KWIM?

 

Marriage has times when you roll over in the morning and think, "ew, I wish I were single" and times when you look across the table and think "how did I get so lucky that he/she picked me" ups and downs, sickness/health, better/worse etc.

 

A good step would be for you and Mr S to agree that you will never throw that card unless you have passed the point of no return and you really mean it.

 

Just a thought.

[Mrs.S.]

He is remorseful. That is sooooo important. This is great! All his actions show that he feels so bad about what he put you through and he is giving it his all to make you feel comfortable.

 

Thanks. I hope you're right. I feel awful imagining the worst - that he is still entertaining a friendship with her and he's just gotten better at lying to me - but who can blame me after all of his lies? I don't think he blames me either. I want to trust him, though. And to be honest, what would be the point of him working so hard to be friends with her behind my back? I believe that he never really wanted it to go any further than the texting and having a "work wife" type of situation to enjoy for a while.

 

Our marriage also doesn't hinge solely on this issue. There are other feelings and questions we've had about ourselves and the direction of our lives that have caused the distance between us. He's no longer sure if he wants kids (remember we were trying to get pregnant last fall), he's unsure if he can ever emotionally recover from certain things that happened in the earlier part of our relationship (nothing that I did, but a personal situational thing that has caused him this depression) and the long-buried issues between us. Right now he's unhappy with who he is in every aspect and this has added to it. So I'm truly concerned with whether this marriage is where he really needs to be/wants to be at this point in his life anyway.

 

My thing has been, that to be supportive of his need to do some self-discovery and letting him go for a while to figure this all out - this girl needs to be completely out of the picture. It's a scary place to be in the first place, without all of the deception and the threat of another person. I offered a few weeks ago to give him some time - for the rest of the year if need be - to be by himself and rebuild himself first. He said he didn't know and he never took me up on it. He's insisted that being apart isn't going to help and that it would make it harder. But I won't even do that unless it's the safest situation possible for me. So far it isn't.

 

There still is a long way for us to go.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Mrs.S.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

It really sounds like your husband needs to be in IC. The girl at work was just a symptom of your husband medicating his pain (like drink or drugs or food) underlying issue is his alone and he needs to be willing to work on it.

 

 

And you guys need marriage counseling so make sure you keep on track there.

 

As for my previous post. It's hard to be all in if it feels like the door stays open. Does that make sense?

[Mrs.S.]

I know you eluded to there being more to the reason that brought you to the unhappy place. But the phrase you have used several times sorta sticks in my mouth.

 

The relationship has run it's course.

 

You mentioned that you guys talked about divorce early on in your frustrations I believe.

 

I wanna say something...I believe that the option of divorce should not be casually banded about during arguments. I am not against divorce, it is necessary. But I have been married a long long time. We have never said that word in the heat of an argument. It sort of is the nuclear option, KWIM?

 

Marriage has times when you roll over in the morning and think, "ew, I wish I were single" and times when you look across the table and think "how did I get so lucky that he/she picked me" ups and downs, sickness/health, better/worse etc.

 

A good step would be for you and Mr S to agree that you will never throw that card unless you have passed the point of no return and you really mean it.

 

Just a thought.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I needed to hear this. It was my fault that divorce even came up in the first place. I was angry and frustrated - the baby stuff, the fertility problems, the repeated cycle of the same disagreements - and I really hurt him deeply by bringing it up. He's told me about the day that "broke" him and how he never even considered divorce as an option. Recently, we've kind of talked about taking divorce off the table. He's said yes, it should come off the table because of exactly the reason you said. It is the nuclear option - the easy way to end it all, like an instant escape. However, in light of our repetitive and escalating arguments, he said that we both agree that if we can't get out of this cycle, we need to be apart. That's kind of how we've left it.

 

His issues with himself are also a piece of this. I know he's very hesitant to be "all in" not only because of our issues, but because of his lack of confidence in himself ever being a complete person. He's said that he doesn't think it's fair to me that he'll never be 100% fulfilled or happy with his life and that it will take away from me. I think that's a big part of why he can't fully believe that the right thing to do is to stay in this. He says that right now he feels "empty," "lost" and like a "shell" of himself.

 

He does need IC. Will he get it? Not yet anyway. So marriage counseling is going to have to be as much as it can be right now. And he does go, consistently, not complaining and willingly.

 

We'll see how tomorrow morning's session goes (I'm dreading the possibility of finding out that he doesn't actually feel the way I think he does) and when I get back from my trip we'll see where we are. That might be a good time to talk about the "take divorce off the table" approach. I think we still need to let the thing with the girl at work, our arguing and exhaustion from all of this diffuse for a while. He explains himself as feeling "battle weary" and he thinks that's probably why he's even still talking about the alternative of being apart. He's just emotionally worn out from all of this - and he does take the blame for most of it.

 

I think that going off to my trip, I need to do what I can to leave things in the best possible state and give him the best chance to be the best person he can be.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Mrs.S.

[Jstub]

Thanks. I hope you're right. I feel awful imagining the worst - that he is still entertaining a friendship with her and he's just gotten better at lying to me - but who can blame me after all of his lies? I don't think he blames me either. I want to trust him, though. And to be honest, what would be the point of him working so hard to be friends with her behind my back? I believe that he never really wanted it to go any further than the texting and having a "work wife" type of situation to enjoy for a while.

 

Our marriage also doesn't hinge solely on this issue. There are other feelings and questions we've had about ourselves and the direction of our lives that have caused the distance between us. He's no longer sure if he wants kids (remember we were trying to get pregnant last fall), he's unsure if he can ever emotionally recover from certain things that happened in the earlier part of our relationship (nothing that I did, but a personal situational thing that has caused him this depression) and the long-buried issues between us. Right now he's unhappy with who he is in every aspect and this has added to it. So I'm truly concerned with whether this marriage is where he really needs to be/wants to be at this point in his life anyway.

 

My thing has been, that to be supportive of his need to do some self-discovery and letting him go for a while to figure this all out - this girl needs to be completely out of the picture. It's a scary place to be in the first place, without all of the deception and the threat of another person. I offered a few weeks ago to give him some time - for the rest of the year if need be - to be by himself and rebuild himself first. He said he didn't know and he never took me up on it. He's insisted that being apart isn't going to help and that it would make it harder. But I won't even do that unless it's the safest situation possible for me. So far it isn't.

 

There still is a long way for us to go.

 

You are right about being careful with what you believe. Always be open to the possibility of lies. As one gets tired of arguments, lying seems to be the easy way out. However, don't assume the worse. What does your gut feeling say? My gut feeling was always right.

 

You should also reconsider having a child with him. Do NOT do it, if everything doesn't feel 150% right. It's a big decision and a "game" changer. As a reference, during my separation / reconciliation mambo jambo, my stbxw got pregnant with our 3rd child. It was the most heart breaking news to me. I knew, I cannot have another child with this woman, even though we were trying to fix our marriage. We ended up having an abortion, and till today it hurts me and makes me cry.

 

You are absolutely right - you cannot give him space with the right state of mind, when there is a third person involved. You cannot work on a marriage, let alone fix it, if that third person is luring around.

 

The thing about remorse - it's still a big deal. That is the first step towards fixing things. When there is no real remorse, you can make a head stand and lie to yourself all you want, nothing will get fixed. That is why, from the way it seems, you are going in the right direction.

 

All the best to you.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

So I am feeling like I need to give you an assignment...maybe the marriage councelor will do this but give some of this a try. Can't hurt.

 

Write a bunch of lovely schmoopie love notes (you can do it) and hide them in his underwear drawer, in the fridge, in his car, whatever. Make it a game.

 

Buy his favorite cookies and put a note in there.

 

No tension, no fertility, no mental health, no desperate slutty work chick, just schmoopie love notes.

 

Take the risk, be all in. Tell him you love him and that you don't want anyone but him and together you can be happy schmoopie schmoopie schmoopie

 

Oh and buy him beer and pizza for while you are away. (Or whatever).

 

Take divorce off the table...today. Tell him you had an epiphany.

[Mrs.S.]

So I am feeling like I need to give you an assignment...maybe the marriage councelor will do this but give some of this a try. Can't hurt.

 

Write a bunch of lovely schmoopie love notes (you can do it) and hide them in his underwear drawer, in the fridge, in his car, whatever. Make it a game.

 

Buy his favorite cookies and put a note in there.

 

No tension, no fertility, no mental health, no desperate slutty work chick, just schmoopie love notes.

 

Take the risk, be all in. Tell him you love him and that you don't want anyone but him and together you can be happy schmoopie schmoopie schmoopie

 

Oh and buy him beer and pizza for while you are away. (Or whatever).

 

Take divorce off the table...today. Tell him you had an epiphany.

 

I like this idea, but isn't it the opposite of the 180 and the reverse ultimatum? Last time I went out of town I left him a card under his pillow and he didn't acknowledge it until later the next day. I asked him about it and he said, "Thanks, it was nice." When I returned home, that's when I found out about the girl at work for the first time. I felt like an idiot. I had left him reassurance of my love for him meanwhile he was getting this girl's phone number. I don't want to be a repeat idiot.

 

That being said, I usually make him his favorite cookies before I go out of town. I've been doing it for years, so maybe I will continue that. He also didn't get me a birthday card this year and offered to get me one the next day, which is pointless. I suggested that instead he write me a little note to take with me on my trip. He said ok, but I'm not going to remind him to do it. That defeats the purpose.

 

I'm not sure if the most effective approach would be your suggestion or if it would be to leave on positive but casual terms, no pressure or expectations, and leave it to him on how to proceed when I return. Any thoughts?

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Ok that depends....

 

The other part of my suggestionwas to take divorce of the table before you go, and be all in.

A marriage cannot thrive in the 180. Very effective way of distancing yourself from being hurt...but will not fix or allow things to be fixed. It's designed to be protection for the betrayed.

 

So, assuming

 

1. You want to stay married. Not just maybe, but you are sure.

 

2. He appears, and you have chosen to believe he's trying too. AND we really truly know its not about the girl.

 

3. You know he has self esteem issues, or issues based on stuff you have not explained.

 

4. He has told you that he was hurt by you playing the divorce card.

 

Based on that, the 180 is not the way to go.

 

But, don't go all needy and stuff, either.

 

Based on 1, 2, 3, & 4 then what would it hurt to make sure he knows you love him, that he's who you want to be with, he's handsome or whatever?

 

What will it hurt for you to give evidence of unconditional love without pressure, without expectation?

 

What will it hurt for you to be the one to help reinforce his self esteem, until he is healthy enough to do it himself?

 

Yes, the potential is that you make yourself vulnerable.

 

Yes, he might disappoint you. But he might not...

 

Do you get it?

 

Also, you said something about birthday card and him not mentioning. You cannot have expectation, it's for him, not for you.

 

(Have you read the 5 love languages?) you so need to.

 

Anyway, I am just giving you the advice I would do. Not telling you to play games. He was a shxt, he seems to get it.

 

You are going away for a long trip, I would want him to miss me.

[BC1980]

It might even be better not to do counseling right now. It can reinforce the stressful aspects of the relationship. It keeps the fact that the relationship needs repair at the forefront. Sometimes, you need to step back.

 

Just some suggestions. But if counseling is working, keep doing it.

[Mrs.S.]

A good step would be for you and Mr S to agree that you will never throw that card unless you have passed the point of no return and you really mean it.

 

So I went out on a limb and asked him if he would want to and is ready to agree to this. I used pretty much your exact words- taking divorce off the table unless things go past the point of no return and it's what we are really going to do. Right away he said, "Ok yea, but you're the one who brought it up in the first place." I said I know that and it was wrong and that keeping that door open is just giving ourselves an easy escape. He agreed and said, "You're right. Yea, it's a deal."

 

I continue to be cautiously optimistic. He also brought home his laptop and showed me his emails from today. I feel ridiculous, but the fact that he's open to it and says he understands why I need this right now is encouraging.

[Mrs.S.]

It might even be better not to do counseling right now. It can reinforce the stressful aspects of the relationship. It keeps the fact that the relationship needs repair at the forefront. Sometimes, you need to step back.

 

Just some suggestions. But if counseling is working, keep doing it.

 

We were just talking about counseling tomorrow. It's crossed my mind that I hope it doesn't stir up bad feelings that we've finally managed to start healing. We haven't been there since the week before last because of her vacation and we won't go next week because of mine. So we'll see how tomorrow goes and how it can help us now that we're trying to move forward. The last time we were there we were in a pretty bad place. I don't think we're ready to stop though, we've just scratched the surface in rebuilding things. And if nothing else it's served as a finish line for us every week- making sure we hang in there until that week's session.

[Mrs.S.]

So I went out on a limb and asked him if he would want to and is ready to agree to this. I used pretty much your exact words- taking divorce off the table unless things go past the point of no return and it's what we are really going to do. Right away he said, "Ok yea, but you're the one who brought it up in the first place." I said I know that and it was wrong and that keeping that door open is just giving ourselves an easy escape. He agreed and said, "You're right. Yea, it's a deal."

 

I continue to be cautiously optimistic. He also brought home his laptop and showed me his emails from today. I feel ridiculous, but the fact that he's open to it and says he understands why I need this right now is encouraging.

 

I know I'm quoting my own post, but I'm frustrated. We went to counseling today and it wasn't the greatest session. She delved a lot into my H's upbringing and his parents' relationship and parenting styles. We left and he was distant and quiet. I, of course, wanted to reconnect with him after sitting there for an hour knowing how uncomfortable he is answering a ton of questions. I had to leave for work almost right away and as I was picking up my purse, he walked over to me with my car keys and handed them to me, said have a good day, walked into the bedroom and closed the door. I got kind of annoyed and went in and was like, ok, goodbye, thanks for the hug and kiss. Then he got annoyed and said that he has other things on his mind and he has to get ready for work.

 

I can't even remember how it came up, but he then told me that even though we're not talking about the option of divorce, he has to be "realistic" and acknowledge that it's a possibility if we can't work things out. This new "realistic" approach is something he's been throwing out there for the past couple of months. It's his new thing, to be "realistic." I told him that he's made his point, but we said we'd eliminate that option so that we're not constantly gravitating towards it when we want to escape or get frustrated. He said that's what he wants too, but, again, he's also "realistic." I said that while I get the advantages of being realistic, we don't have to be that way with each other. He replied, "Well look where that got me."

 

I'm hoping that this is just his way of protecting himself and not that he just told me what I wanted to hear last night. I'm going to try to chalk this up to his tendency to shut off for a while after counseling and my tendency to be overly sensitive after counseling. I hope I'm right. Less than two days before I leave, ugh.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I think he is protecting himself. Sort of the equivalent to the 180. Marriages cannot thrive if one or more of the people are not all in. Can't. Fact.

 

I have read here and other places that counseling can be depressing. I think he went into his emotional turtle shell and.....

 

You didn't handle that very well. Kinda passive aggressive. You wanted him to kiss you on his own steam. He didn't. You could have left without, or gone over and said, can I give you a hug, I need one after that. You need to stop doing that. (Says the pot to the kettle)

 

Based on what you have said. He sounds like he is depressed. And mourning.

 

I guess, this is where the "all in" comes up. Can you be all in? Even if he can't be? Can he be all in?

 

It sounds like you both are dancing around that full commitment to being vulnerable. Which you will both have to do.

 

Realistic...why, why do you need to be realistic?

[imtooconfused]

I know I'm quoting my own post, but I'm frustrated. We went to counseling today and it wasn't the greatest session. She delved a lot into my H's upbringing and his parents' relationship and parenting styles. We left and he was distant and quiet. I, of course, wanted to reconnect with him after sitting there for an hour knowing how uncomfortable he is answering a ton of questions. I had to leave for work almost right away and as I was picking up my purse, he walked over to me with my car keys and handed them to me, said have a good day, walked into the bedroom and closed the door.

 

I sense that there is something that happened in your session that you are missing. It's not necessary to explain the private details of your session here (and I don't recommend it), but for him to have such a negative reaction coming out of the counseling session means there is something that happened that deeply troubled him. Figure that out and you will have your answer to why he was so distant before work.