Are we headed for Reconciliation or Divorce?

[Mrs.S.]

I'm back from my trip - it was wonderful. My H and I didn't talk too much while I was away - we both felt we needed some distance from things. When I came home, he insisted on picking me up from the airport and even though his father was in town visiting, he spent the rest of the night at home with me.

 

We talked more about where we are with things. He admitted that he still has "lingering feelings" for the girl at work and that he is still "somewhat attracted" to her. He also admitted that maybe using this to take his "stand" against me like he'd been saying wasn't completely true and that he does have an attachment to her and the way she made him feel. He said that he did feel that they connected (he's an introvert and rarely gets close to people) and that he trusted her to an extent and he misses their friendship. He also said that he could tell that she told him she liked the same things that he liked just to agree with him - and that he kind of liked that. He said they had a lot in common and he felt very familiar with her. He said that his feelings and attraction for her will pass with some time and that he's doing everything he can to move on and end this.

 

He insists that he wants to move on and that even though he has residual feelings for her and an attraction to her, he isn't interested in anything happening and he never was. He said that sometimes he feels a desire to talk to her and be around her, but that he doesn't. He swears that he only talks to her when necessary for work and that it's short and as infrequent as possible.

 

He wants me to move on from it, too, and he can't understand why it's so hard for me. I really think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he works so closely with her - she's still on the team he manages for the foreseeable (short-term) future. There's a possibility she could stay permanently. I'm having a hard time handling this - I do trust him, yet I know that as long as he's around her, he can't bring total closure to those desires and feelings for her. Even if he doesn't take action on them.

 

Apart from the EA with her, he is still hesitant to be "all in" on our marriage. He said he's all in on working on things, but part of him is holding back. He said some days he feels like things will be fine and that he wants things to be the way they were between us more than anything. Other days he feels too much anger and resentment and like the grass is still greener on the other side. He said he does want to do anything possible to work on this.

 

He was very affectionate and loving when I got home, more than he has been in the months since all of this started. I told him that I'm still having a hard time moving forward while he's still so close to her at work. He offered again to quit his job and said that he really thought about it while I was gone and that his job is just a job and he'll quit because even though he knows this will end in time, quitting will end it quicker for me. He said that anything worth having is worth the sacrifice and he'd do it right away if I need that. Part of me doesn't know if he'd actually do it, but I just don't see how that would benefit either one of us in the long run anyway.

 

I told him that I may need to move out until he can go completely no contact with her - for good. He was sad and asked me several times not to leave. He insists that he loves me and that this will pass. I don't know what to do. I believe him and I love him, but as long as he's in this work situation I know that his feelings and attraction won't end.

 

I'm afraid of saying I'm ok with this and then having those anxiety fueled meltdowns that cause us both to be angry at each other. Our relationship needs forgiveness and kindness right now. But if I can't realistically be ok with this situation, should I move out until she is completely out of his life? Or should I stay and work on bringing us closer - he said that he really wants this - and swallow the pain of him being around her and still having feelings for her?

 

Now that I'm back and we've had a small separation, neither of us want to or can bear to continue the same cycle of incessant questions, conversations, anger, etc.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Mrs.S.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Welcome back.

 

While I am sure it's hard to hear your husband talk fondly about the EAP, it's good he admitted it to himself and to you.

 

I am glad that he seems committed to not furthering his relationship with her, and that he offered to leave his job.

 

I think that he may need to leave the job because he will have a much more difficult time getting over her when he continues to have daily contact. Moreover, I think you will have trouble trusting him as long as he has feelings for her and works with her. Is it possible for him to clearly discourage her, by saying something about being committed to making his marriage a priority so they cannot have private conversations? Or something? I get the sense that he may be just avoiding and that it will not provide the clear line, which in essence leaves the door open...maybe or at least feels like that.

 

You spoke of not being able to have the angry conversations...There is something called "rug sweeping" which means we just pretend that things are better,but that lump just under the surface remains because you have not solved the problems... I think it helps a little in the short term but it really does prevent healing. That is not to say you can't discuss in a controlled environment and that you cannot find ways to discuss with kindness, but you need to take the time to solve.

 

I think the serious obstacle is his inability to be all in. You won't be able to get past that. Do you understand why he cannot be all in? Is it because of his lingering feelings for the work chick? Or is there something else?

 

I do not think that moving out is the answer unless you both cannot come to some common ground.

 

I think you two need marriage counseling, bad. If you don't find some help you will not recover. I am pulling for you both.

[trippi1432]

He also said that he could tell that she told him she liked the same things that he liked just to agree with him - and that he kind of liked that. He said they had a lot in common and he felt very familiar with her.

 

Welcome back Mrs. S.

 

The above part bothers me and perhaps it's just due to the interpretation. The above seems "off"...how can you feel you have a lot in common with someone and be familiar with them if you can tell that they are saying they like the same things just to agree with you? Is he saying that he values fake people above others?

 

IDK - I still just think the attraction is one-sided. I do think that he is using it as a way to try to carve out a new role in the marriage where he feels more masculine. He liked her agreeing with him, even though he could tell she really didn't like those things.

 

In the past, how have the two of you typically been on the decision-making? Going back to his stand on "his not giving up what he wants".

[Mrs.S.]

 

Is it possible for him to clearly discourage her, by saying something about being committed to making his marriage a priority so they cannot have private conversations? Or something? I get the sense that he may be just avoiding and that it will not provide the clear line, which in essence leaves the door open...maybe or at least feels like that.

 

As soon as I found out about what was going on (end of April) he told her that they had to keep it strictly professional from now on. He did admit later that he started talking to her at work about personal stuff for a week or two, but that he realized it was a bad idea and stopped. He said that since then he's been discouraging contact as much as possible (he manages her and is a superior so he can only verbalize this to a certain extent without being inappropriate). He only replies to her emails and IM's with short answers pertaining only to her questions. They don't talk in passing or chat otherwise. He insists that this is completely true. I asked him to send her a message or something closer to a "closure" and he said that it honestly would be weird because they haven't talked like that in a long time and he wants things to die peacefully and without any possible work repercussions.

 

You spoke of not being able to have the angry conversations...There is something called "rug sweeping" which means we just pretend that things are better,but that lump just under the surface remains because you have not solved the problems... I think it helps a little in the short term but it really does prevent healing. That is not to say you can't discuss in a controlled environment and that you cannot find ways to discuss with kindness, but you need to take the time to solve.

 

Yes, he said he understands that I'm anxious and uncomfortable about him working with her and that I do need to talk about it. But we get into the cycle of me asking him the same questions over and over and that's what frustrates him and triggers the negative feelings he's had about our relationship. We both end up angry and frustrated.

 

I think the serious obstacle is his inability to be all in. You won't be able to get past that. Do you understand why he cannot be all in? Is it because of his lingering feelings for the work chick? Or is there something else?

 

He said he's not all in because of his anger towards me and his unhappiness with himself right now. Even though he wants to work on things and he's willing to do anything that it takes, there's a part of him that is holding back and protecting himself. He said it's not because of her and that he knows his feelings will pass and that it was never a love thing or even a desire for anything to really happen. It was an attachment and a connection with her, mostly as a friend, that got built up too much in his mind and that's all.

 

I do not think that moving out is the answer unless you both cannot come to some common ground.

 

I think you two need marriage counseling, bad. If you don't find some help you will not recover. I am pulling for you both.

 

We've been in counseling since the week I found out about the girl at work. We agreed a couple of weeks before that we needed it anyway, so it wasn't just because of the girl at work.

 

Ideally, he needs to be away from her completely. I just don't think that's possible right now - I half understand the logic of this and I half feel furious. I'm conflicted over whether I should accept this as genuine good intentions for us and the best he can do with this situation or whether I should call bulls@&% on him for finding a way to hold onto this attachment, even in the distant and insignificant form he claims it is.

[Mrs.S.]

Welcome back Mrs. S.

 

The above part bothers me and perhaps it's just due to the interpretation. The above seems "off"...how can you feel you have a lot in common with someone and be familiar with them if you can tell that they are saying they like the same things just to agree with you? Is he saying that he values fake people above others?

 

I mean, it's kind of pathetic, I agree. I asked him the same thing and he said that he knew what she was doing, but he kind of liked the fact that she was trying so hard to please him. He liked that she told him she looks up to him. He even said that while it's pretty clear that she's not too smart, he doesn't mind because it makes him feel good. This really was an ego stroke for him, icky as it is.

 

IDK - I still just think the attraction is one-sided. I do think that he is using it as a way to try to carve out a new role in the marriage where he feels more masculine. He liked her agreeing with him, even though he could tell she really didn't like those things.

 

I agree, I think. I know that she is/was attracted to him to a degree - or at least she led him to believe this could be true without saying as much (clever girl). But I don't think that she had any desire or intention to cheat on her boyfriend. In that regard, I believe my husband that this was a friendship gone overboard and mostly in his mind. But I do I think she deliberately did her part to perpetuate it and enjoyed the attention and power she had over this married man who is her superior at work. I think it stroked her ego as well.

 

In the past, how have the two of you typically been on the decision-making? Going back to his stand on "his not giving up what he wants".

 

He feels that I make all the decisions. Honestly, and I've hesitated to say this because I don't want to come off sounding snobby, but she's the total opposite of me. She's slightly heavy and sloppy, has a tattoo on each arm from shoulder to elbow all the way around each arm and an eyebrow ring, she's not college educated and she's completely submissive and happy to be "below" him and "look up to" him. I'm not saying I'm better - but each of those things are the opposite of me. Maybe that's part of the appeal. I'm very opinionated, career focused, strong willed, independent, professional appearance, etc. I say these things because I think he enjoyed feeling like the smarter, more accomplished, admired one. Remember, I'm six years older than him and he's said that my compliments and pride in him don't mean the same as hers did because he has always felt the things he's going through are old hat to me and that I couldn't really be proud of him. I've always told him that I admire him and think he's smarter than I am and that just because I'm older doesn't mean I'm less impressed with everything he does. He's always brushed it off telling me that compliments just make him uncomfortable. But he actually said that he liked her admiration and compliments and they felt more important because she isn't his wife and she hasn't accomplished those things yet. Ouch.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Mrs.S.

[trippi1432]

I mean, it's kind of pathetic, I agree. I asked him the same thing and he said that he knew what she was doing, but he kind of liked the fact that she was trying so hard to please him. He liked that she told him she looks up to him. He even said that while it's pretty clear that she's not too smart, he doesn't mind because it makes him feel good. This really was an ego stroke for him, icky as it is.

 

No doubt about it...it was an ego stroke...that is typically what an EA is.

 

 

 

I agree, I think. I know that she is/was attracted to him to a degree - or at least she led him to believe this could be true without saying as much (clever girl). But I don't think that she had any desire or intention to cheat on her boyfriend. In that regard, I believe my husband that this was a friendship gone overboard and mostly in his mind. But I do I think she deliberately did her part to perpetuate it and enjoyed the attention and power she had over this married man who is her superior at work. I think it stroked her ego as well.

 

She may lead a lot of men to believe this, personality-wise, hard to say...but just about everyone likes having their ego stroked.

 

 

 

He feels that I make all the decisions. Honestly, and I've hesitated to say this because I don't want to come off sounding snobby, but she's the total opposite of me. She's slightly heavy and sloppy, has a tattoo on each arm from shoulder to elbow all the way around each arm and an eyebrow ring, she's not college educated and she's completely submissive and happy to be "below" him and "look up to" him. I'm not saying I'm better - but each of those things are the opposite of me. Maybe that's part of the appeal. I'm very opinionated, career focused, strong willed, independent, professional appearance, etc. I say these things because I think he enjoyed feeling like the smarter, more accomplished, admired one. Remember, I'm six years older than him and he's said that my compliments and pride in him don't mean the same as hers did because he has always felt the things he's going through are old hat to me and that I couldn't really be proud of him. I've always told him that I admire him and think he's smarter than I am and that just because I'm older doesn't mean I'm less impressed with everything he does. He's always brushed it off telling me that compliments just make him uncomfortable. But he actually said that he liked her admiration and compliments and they felt more important because she isn't his wife and she hasn't accomplished those things yet. Ouch.

 

This is the part that's important, the current situation has put you in "Mommy" role. Not just because you are older than him, but he is being the "little boy" and has been playing the rebellion game. This is what I also got from your interactions with your counselor previously. What you CAN'T do, is call him out on it or it just puts you more into the parent role instead of the wife role.

 

What I do find interesting, you give him the ego-strokes and he brushes them off. She gives him the ego-strokes and he's enamored. What was the beginning of your relationship with him like? It sounds like he is hesitant on taking the next step to a PA, which is good...but there is something in your marital roles that needs to be re-defined to make him see you as a woman who is happy and proud to be with him and does look up to him. If he feels emasculated, there is probably not much you can do for him. Unless you are comparing him to other men, belittling him or making him feel unnecessary, which I haven't seen as of yet in your postings I don't think, he will have to understand how his being introverted contributes to that and why he needs the ego-strokes.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

So I have hesitated to say this right outm but you do realize he is behaving Ina fairly predictable way right? I mean, google men and affairs and your husbands picture is there.

 

There are several ways at going after this and I think you can do it if you think of winning the war, not the battle.

 

Your husband is suffering from a crisis of confidence. His lack of confidence probably predates you, but now you have become part of the cause. He found a way to feel good about himself (with the girl making him feel good) but NOW he feels like a scum ball for the EA, still has the original esteem issues and any time you need to talk about your feelings it makes him feel worse about his self esteem. Soooo it becomes easier to be angry at you. But remember this is about him and his self esteem. He needs IC to help with that, and you still need to resolve your issues....but do you see the dynamic issue?

 

Anytime you drive the solution you become the problem.

 

In addition, the chemicals induced by the affair are like heroin. Really hard to break from, and normal life has a hard time beating the rush.

 

So what do you do? Well what you don't do is solve the problem for him. He made the mess, he needs to figure a way to clean it up.

 

Because, well, you still have trust issues and pain you need to deal with too. You still lack a commitment by your spouse on the marriage. He also seems to argue every point with some (lame) reason to not do it.

 

So while you can't help him fix his problem (at the risk of being parental), he does need to find a way to help you get through yours. What is his plan to help you recover from his betrayal? You really are in a lose lose here because I think you have to say "anything I ask of you to help me with my lack of confidence, insecurity and lack of trust is seen as being parental (bossy/dominant)" so he needs to figure out what to do FOR YOU. I mean, it's not as if there are not books, anonymous forums and websites which provide all kinds of insights and suggestions. If he googles, how to help my wife recover from my affair, he will have thousands of pages of recommendations.

 

That commitment to find a way to help you heal, the ACTIONS will help you with your feelings, otherwise you are both still coping on your own.

[Mrs.S.]

 

This is the part that's important, the current situation has put you in "Mommy" role. Not just because you are older than him, but he is being the "little boy" and has been playing the rebellion game. This is what I also got from your interactions with your counselor previously. What you CAN'T do, is call him out on it or it just puts you more into the parent role instead of the wife role.

 

This is so accurate, thank you for putting it into words. This is essentially what the MC has said. She said there's an uneven dynamic in our marriage - when we started dating I was 27 and had a masters degree, had been financially independent for almost 10 years and had already been working for four years. He was 21, a senior in college and lived off a trust/college fund. We need to re-shift the dynamic to be more even.

 

What I do find interesting, you give him the ego-strokes and he brushes them off. She gives him the ego-strokes and he's enamored. What was the beginning of your relationship with him like? It sounds like he is hesitant on taking the next step to a PA, which is good...but there is something in your marital roles that needs to be re-defined to make him see you as a woman who is happy and proud to be with him and does look up to him. If he feels emasculated, there is probably not much you can do for him. Unless you are comparing him to other men, belittling him or making him feel unnecessary, which I haven't seen as of yet in your postings I don't think, he will have to understand how his being introverted contributes to that and why he needs the ego-strokes.

 

The beginning of our relationship was wonderful. We took things very slow, neither of us really thinking that the other wanted anything serious. Mainly because of the age difference. We just really liked each other at that point. He had never had a serious girlfriend before and I was the first girl he said he loved, and after nine months of dating. Every "step" in our relationship was a wonderful surprise to both of us. He had always been sure I'd "get tired" of him and I always assured him I wouldn't. He always had this perception that I had this established mature "grown-up" life and he felt like he was so far behind me in everything. He never believed the reasons I admired him. I also let him pursue me the entire time- calling, setting up dates, texting, moving in together, talking about marriage, etc. Everything.

 

He's always had self-esteem issues and he's always been susceptible to the attention of girls, though very few of them as he doesn't get close to a lot of people. The ones he has had a close friendship with, he was very affected by them even though they were truly platonic.

 

The part I bolded above - I absolutely think this is true. And it's hard to do when I'm in a position of "need" because of this work girl situation.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Mrs.S.

[Mrs.S.]

So I have hesitated to say this right outm but you do realize he is behaving Ina fairly predictable way right? I mean, google men and affairs and your husbands picture is there.

 

There are several ways at going after this and I think you can do it if you think of winning the war, not the battle.

 

Your husband is suffering from a crisis of confidence. His lack of confidence probably predates you, but now you have become part of the cause. He found a way to feel good about himself (with the girl making him feel good) but NOW he feels like a scum ball for the EA, still has the original esteem issues and any time you need to talk about your feelings it makes him feel worse about his self esteem. Soooo it becomes easier to be angry at you. But remember this is about him and his self esteem. He needs IC to help with that, and you still need to resolve your issues....but do you see the dynamic issue?

 

Anytime you drive the solution you become the problem.

 

In addition, the chemicals induced by the affair are like heroin. Really hard to break from, and normal life has a hard time beating the rush.

 

So what do you do? Well what you don't do is solve the problem for him. He made the mess, he needs to figure a way to clean it up.

 

Because, well, you still have trust issues and pain you need to deal with too. You still lack a commitment by your spouse on the marriage. He also seems to argue every point with some (lame) reason to not do it.

 

So while you can't help him fix his problem (at the risk of being parental), he does need to find a way to help you get through yours. What is his plan to help you recover from his betrayal? You really are in a lose lose here because I think you have to say "anything I ask of you to help me with my lack of confidence, insecurity and lack of trust is seen as being parental (bossy/dominant)" so he needs to figure out what to do FOR YOU. I mean, it's not as if there are not books, anonymous forums and websites which provide all kinds of insights and suggestions. If he googles, how to help my wife recover from my affair, he will have thousands of pages of recommendations.

 

That commitment to find a way to help you heal, the ACTIONS will help you with your feelings, otherwise you are both still coping on your own.

 

This post hits the nail on the head. Every part of it.

 

Today I'm not in a good place. He stayed late at work last night and assured me that she wasn't there. His regular team was working on something mandatory and he didn't want to leave earlier than they did. He was very sweet and affectionate when he got home and even though he stayed up later than I did (I'm still on Russian time unfortunately), he came to bed and hugged and kissed me for a while like he used to do. This morning I was leaving for work and he told me that he wanted me to know that he wouldn't talk to her today. I said that I trusted him and he said he knows I do but that he also knows it's helpful to hear him tell me that he won't. He's also texted me a few times today from work and I know he's making an effort.

 

I still haven't taken moving out for a while off the table. I just don't know what to do - stay and be patient for his feelings for her to end? Whether that's in a month or a year. Meanwhile knowing how closely they work together and that she could be put on his team permanently at any time? And especially knowing that he still has an attraction to her, a desire to be around her and that he does feel that the connection they have/had is special and it's always a temptation for him?

 

Or move out and take my own stand that this situation is not ok? That in reality he has not taken any ACTION to end ALL feelings and attachment to this girl? He may have limited their communication, but he has admitted that he's not quite ready to let it go completely - whether that's the idea of what he felt with her or the feeling of attachment or even just the pleasure of seeing her? I told him I would move out until he can be completely without contact with her in any way, permanently, and that's what it would take for me to feel safe moving forward with our marriage. He thinks this is somewhat unfair because of work constraints and he says that he's "working on it" but in reality he's not doing anything except coming up with reasons why it's not possible.

 

I'm not sure if the actions he's taking to distance himself from her and work on our marriage should be enough right now or if the fact that he still has feelings, attraction and temptation means that she must be out of his life completely in order for us to truly move forward.

 

I just don't think it's ok that out of the three of us, I'm still the only one who has to continually suffer. Yet I'm hesitant to up and leave when he clearly is so different than he has been since this all started and is doing everything he can, short of the work girl/team situation, to work on our marriage.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Obviously, it's your life. And I wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit that I would have run away from home, if in your sitch. It's only fair for me to say do as I say, not as I do.

 

But I think,based on what you say that you can come out married, and probably happy, and leaving at this point might not be the answer.

 

I do believe that he is trying. I do believe he is not really dealing with it. I do believe that his excuses are lame.

 

Please don't think what I am suggesting is a game, I am suggesting that you do something to change the dynamic. My words, use your own. And I don't write this to make you sad, it makes me sad to write it.

 

Assuming he is still in that holding pattern of not being willing to step forward or back. You need to kick him off the fence, whichever way he goes is actually ok but the fence sitting has to end.

 

I think that you need to tell him that you are not strong enough to handle the pain of knowing he is infatuated, in love, whatever with someone else. That he is conflicted and still has feelings for her, believes her compliments but not yours, is destroying you. You know he loves you, but that it feels like he is having to try so hard to do so, it doesn't feel like love. Of having three people in the marriage is preventing you both from working on anything between the two if you.

 

You know is angry with you and you know he is hurting, but as much as you want to help fix it, you can't. Because then you become his parent, and no matter what he may think, the last thing you want is to be his parent. You are his wife and his lover not his parent, not his buddy, not his friend. You have had dreams of growing old together and enjoying a whole life together and it is killing you to realize that he may not want that with you anymore.

 

You love him and want him to be happy, even if that is without you. It is breaking your heart to think that the best thing is to step aside and let him find out what would make him happy without feeling obligated to you.

 

You know he is trying to help you, and you appreciate it. Tell him that you are in a great deal of pain that you are tamping down so as to not scare him or push him further away and you just don't know if you will be able to keep it up. One day soon it may be more than you can take.

 

Tell him you have been reading books and articles on the internet and know what he is feeling is similar to what other married men who have emotional affairs feel, and that what you are feeling is typical of what the betrayed spouse feels like, but that no matter how textbook it is, it is incredibly painful and soul crushing. And frankly, all the articles and books say that unless both are committed to doing everything possible the marriage cannot survive, and he does not seem to be prepared to do that today.

 

I would then tell him you are 100% in today, and tomorrow you will get up and try to be 100% in, but at some point, if he has not figured it out, you will give up too. Because loving someone who does not love you back in the same way is unbearable.

 

And then, if it does not change his actions, his actions, not his words, then I would move out, visit a lawyer and file for divorce, often (if you read the books) that snaps them out of it. If not, well then, it wouldnt have succeeded anyway.

 

But again, I would just up and disappear for a while, that's my MO.

Edited July 24, 2013 by It-is-what-it-is.
Typo

[trippi1432]

This post hits the nail on the head. Every part of it.

 

Today I'm not in a good place. He stayed late at work last night and assured me that she wasn't there. His regular team was working on something mandatory and he didn't want to leave earlier than they did. He was very sweet and affectionate when he got home and even though he stayed up later than I did (I'm still on Russian time unfortunately), he came to bed and hugged and kissed me for a while like he used to do. This morning I was leaving for work and he told me that he wanted me to know that he wouldn't talk to her today. I said that I trusted him and he said he knows I do but that he also knows it's helpful to hear him tell me that he won't. He's also texted me a few times today from work and I know he's making an effort.

 

I still haven't taken moving out for a while off the table. I just don't know what to do - stay and be patient for his feelings for her to end? Whether that's in a month or a year. Meanwhile knowing how closely they work together and that she could be put on his team permanently at any time? And especially knowing that he still has an attraction to her, a desire to be around her and that he does feel that the connection they have/had is special and it's always a temptation for him?

 

Or move out and take my own stand that this situation is not ok? That in reality he has not taken any ACTION to end ALL feelings and attachment to this girl? He may have limited their communication, but he has admitted that he's not quite ready to let it go completely - whether that's the idea of what he felt with her or the feeling of attachment or even just the pleasure of seeing her? I told him I would move out until he can be completely without contact with her in any way, permanently, and that's what it would take for me to feel safe moving forward with our marriage. He thinks this is somewhat unfair because of work constraints and he says that he's "working on it" but in reality he's not doing anything except coming up with reasons why it's not possible.

 

I'm not sure if the actions he's taking to distance himself from her and work on our marriage should be enough right now or if the fact that he still has feelings, attraction and temptation means that she must be out of his life completely in order for us to truly move forward.

 

I just don't think it's ok that out of the three of us, I'm still the only one who has to continually suffer. Yet I'm hesitant to up and leave when he clearly is so different than he has been since this all started and is doing everything he can, short of the work girl/team situation, to work on our marriage.

 

Question....why would you move out of your home?

[Pastypop]

This is a terrible position to be in. My husband did this to me. I ended up losing most of my self esteem and confidence and just reached a horrible low. If you can, find some things to do for yourself to build up your confidence. Work-out, go to the movies , travel or something that you have always wanted to do but, never got around to. Let him know that you are tired of his games and that you no longer care what decision he finally comes to. Tell him you are going to do what makes you happy for a change. Also, confront this girl and find out her side of things. Remind her that he is married and that he won't be divorcing you until you are ready to do so. Start taking control of situation. He won't have any idea how to handle that.

[Mrs.S.]

Question....why would you move out of your home?

 

Because even though he says he limits contact with her to necessary work interaction, he now directly supervises her and hasn't done anything to remove her from his life completely. He also has recently admitted that he does still have feelings and attraction to her and he hasn't completely let go of the excitement and anticipation of interacting with her. I feel like a full-on commitment from him to our marriage requires taking action to completely end contact with her. Otherwise, he's still having that cake and eating it, too.

 

I don't feel good about being the wife who looks the other way and makes do with whatever fraction of him he chooses to give me, depending on the strength of his attachment to her that particular day. I'm still cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, hugging and kissing him good night while he holds onto his feelings for another girl. It's offensive and demeaning. I can't feel safe and be "all in" if he's clearly not.

[2sunny]

Because even though he says he limits contact with her to necessary work interaction, he now directly supervises her and hasn't done anything to remove her from his life completely. He also has recently admitted that he does still have feelings and attraction to her and he hasn't completely let go of the excitement and anticipation of interacting with her. I feel like a full-on commitment from him to our marriage requires taking action to completely end contact with her. Otherwise, he's still having that cake and eating it, too.

 

I don't feel good about being the wife who looks the other way and makes do with whatever fraction of him he chooses to give me, depending on the strength of his attachment to her that particular day. I'm still cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, hugging and kissing him good night while he holds onto his feelings for another girl. It's offensive and demeaning. I can't feel safe and be "all in" if he's clearly not.

 

I don't blame you for feeling that way.

 

But he caused it = he needs to move, not you.

[Mrs.S.]

I don't blame you for feeling that way.

 

But he caused it = he needs to move, not you.

 

I asked him a while ago to leave if he couldn't end all contact, including work contact, with her. He said he wants to be with me and doesn't want me to go at all. And that while he understands how I feel, he can't do anything immediately about the work situation. He said that he asked his boss today about changing shifts. If someone would be willing to switch with him, he'll do it. He said the only shift she would never end up on is one where he and I wouldn't see each other that much either. I don't know what to do.

[Yasuandio]

When I read that post after trip, I was like, man, I would go ballistic if my former spouse had told me he had "lingering feelings" for some chick at work. I don't know how your coping with these open and honest revelations.

 

Have you considered the REAL likelihood that he has not brought some horrific details (that you probably don't want to know) to the confessional? Why would he? There is this thing called "trickle-truth." I am very familiar with this technique. If you kinda get caught, or slip-up, the thing to do is to, sorta admit, kinda. But, you certainly don't admit the whole darn truth! No, no, no! The thing to do with "trickle-truthing" is to admit enough truth to make yourself look honest (whilst simultaneously minimizing what really happened, appling big time damage control for your own self-interests). Just enough to get you off the hook - but if you tell too much, you shoot yourself in the foot and lose everything. Do you know what I mean? For the person that has to be on the other end of the convo, the whole thing gets so convoluted that you thing you're going crazy, and you did something wrong. And then, it is, like, what? Suddenly you don't know your fanny from a potted plant! Do you feel like that? If so, maybe look into the term "gaslighting."

 

So in a way, your husband is "coming off" truthful and admitting an EA, and also corrobating his admittance with certain damaging evidence (these crazy-making statements to you - that help his EA story look authentic. But in reality - the words he's spewing are the last thing a man would ever say to his wife to try to save his marriage (admitting attraction, how difficult it will be to get over her or whatever is problem is). These extra calls or texts for your reassurance only serve to remind you that this girl is right there, maybe even sitting on his knee when he texted you. There is a lot of, and perhaps too much preoccupation with his demonstration of what a good boy he is being. Shakespeare comes to mind. You get me?

 

Here, flipping this mess up-side-down may also be an interesting exercise: Have you thought about how this young lady might be feeling? I mean your husband is in a position of power - and you nor we really know what she feels. How would you feel in her position, even with the scenario your husband came up with? I would at best feel bewildered, and at worst, confused, maybe hurt, and concerned about my job.

 

One more thing. Already posted perhaps. Why should you be the "bad guy" to tell him he has to quit his job so you feel safe? He should have had 20 resumes out while you were away on the trip if he cared a dang. Research shows there is no healing for the betrayed spouse when the third party remains in the picture. He knows, I think, that he can pull this one off his way, and you will eat it. But he could very well be wrong about that.

 

I would not do anymore talk talk. Perhaps print off the marriage builders article about this - and frame a day in your mind, then act. Like what "It-is-what-it-is" pretty much summed up - it is gonna be what it will in the end anyway. Keep your dignity - the "reverse ultimatum" is great for that, you'll accomplish all the same goals with grace.

 

Sorry 4 typos. My computer crashed, this iPhone is more manic than I am, and I wanted to get these thoughts to you. I have not been well - so my thinking might be a little mixed up. Yas

 

PS hi you guys.

[2sunny]

I guess his job is more important than your M - at least that's what his actions show.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Mrs. S, hope you are doing ok. What a crappy situation this is for you. I agree with the other posters that what Mr. S needs is a swift kick in the nuts (may I assist you with that?)

 

I think there are two main things at work, and my recommendation was based on that. (Again knowing that I would not be able to do it)

 

1.How do you force him to get off the fence without feeding you into the mommy dynamic with him.

 

2. And how do you keep your dignity so that when the dust settles you respect yourself enough to stay in the marriage.

 

As for 1. You can tell him you need him to make a choice, I think you have tried that, but it plays into the rebellion nonsense. You can wait for him to get his act together which interferes with 2. You put the responsibility in his lap to fix it with an implied consequence in a soft way (my first recommendation). Or you visit a lawyer and file for divorce (not just move out, you need to show consequence).

 

For 2 it's harder, I think that in many cases the problem comes after they come back...cause most of them do. It's whether you can forgive yourself for what happened...him stringing you along, you begging, at some point it is whether you can respect yourself. That's why I recommend one last, statement, no arguing, no fighting. If he isn't willing to put you first, then he can be alone.

 

It is your life and we aren't there physically, but if you need to vent then come here.

 

Hope you are ok today.

[trippi1432]

Because even though he says he limits contact with her to necessary work interaction, he now directly supervises her and hasn't done anything to remove her from his life completely. He also has recently admitted that he does still have feelings and attraction to her and he hasn't completely let go of the excitement and anticipation of interacting with her. I feel like a full-on commitment from him to our marriage requires taking action to completely end contact with her. Otherwise, he's still having that cake and eating it, too.

 

I don't feel good about being the wife who looks the other way and makes do with whatever fraction of him he chooses to give me, depending on the strength of his attachment to her that particular day. I'm still cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, hugging and kissing him good night while he holds onto his feelings for another girl. It's offensive and demeaning. I can't feel safe and be "all in" if he's clearly not.

 

All of that is very understandable, believe me, I agree with every single word you have written here. It is demeaning, it is offensive but why give him the cake, the icing, the fork and the plate? When this reaches its grand finale, meaning when you have had absolutely enough, he needs to move out....not you.

 

Unless I've missed something here, is the home in his name only (mortgage/lease?)....if he won't leave, there are measures to make him leave and they don't have to get ugly.

 

Agreed that sometimes EA's need a "jolt", but your moving out is playing into his game, not giving him the jolt he really needs.

[imtooconfused]

He insists that he wants to move on and that even though he has residual feelings for her and an attraction to her, he isn't interested in anything happening and he never was.

 

only serve to remind you that this girl is right there, maybe even sitting on his knee when he texted you

 

This thread has spun so far out of control, I have to bid you all farewell.

[Snowflower]

 

I told him that I may need to move out until he can go completely no contact with her - for good. He was sad and asked me several times not to leave. He insists that he loves me and that this will pass. I don't know what to do. I believe him and I love him, but as long as he's in this work situation I know that his feelings and attraction won't end.

 

 

I'm glad to hear you had a good trip. Wow, Russia. I'm jealous.

 

So, not much has changed in your situation except for your own realizations.

 

You may need to move out for your own sanity. In a perfect world yes, he would be the one to move out because he is sitting on the fence.

 

However, my experience with fence-sitters is that they do nothing. Don't expect it from him.

 

For YOU and that is who I care about here, you may need to consider being the one who leaves because nothing has changed! He still admits feelings for the girl at work and even more troubling, he has admitted to not being "all in" with the marriage.

 

Save yourself. I like the post above where you just say very calmly that you can't do this anymore. Read that post over and over again! Change the words/add what you need to make it your own and tell your H.

[Snowflower]

Obviously, it's your life. And I wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit that I would have run away from home, if in your sitch. It's only fair for me to say do as I say, not as I do.

 

But I think,based on what you say that you can come out married, and probably happy, and leaving at this point might not be the answer.

 

I do believe that he is trying. I do believe he is not really dealing with it. I do believe that his excuses are lame.

 

Please don't think what I am suggesting is a game, I am suggesting that you do something to change the dynamic. My words, use your own. And I don't write this to make you sad, it makes me sad to write it.

 

Assuming he is still in that holding pattern of not being willing to step forward or back. You need to kick him off the fence, whichever way he goes is actually ok but the fence sitting has to end.

 

I think that you need to tell him that you are not strong enough to handle the pain of knowing he is infatuated, in love, whatever with someone else. That he is conflicted and still has feelings for her, believes her compliments but not yours, is destroying you. You know he loves you, but that it feels like he is having to try so hard to do so, it doesn't feel like love. Of having three people in the marriage is preventing you both from working on anything between the two if you.

 

You know is angry with you and you know he is hurting, but as much as you want to help fix it, you can't. Because then you become his parent, and no matter what he may think, the last thing you want is to be his parent. You are his wife and his lover not his parent, not his buddy, not his friend. You have had dreams of growing old together and enjoying a whole life together and it is killing you to realize that he may not want that with you anymore.

 

You love him and want him to be happy, even if that is without you. It is breaking your heart to think that the best thing is to step aside and let him find out what would make him happy without feeling obligated to you.

 

You know he is trying to help you, and you appreciate it. Tell him that you are in a great deal of pain that you are tamping down so as to not scare him or push him further away and you just don't know if you will be able to keep it up. One day soon it may be more than you can take.

 

Tell him you have been reading books and articles on the internet and know what he is feeling is similar to what other married men who have emotional affairs feel, and that what you are feeling is typical of what the betrayed spouse feels like, but that no matter how textbook it is, it is incredibly painful and soul crushing. And frankly, all the articles and books say that unless both are committed to doing everything possible the marriage cannot survive, and he does not seem to be prepared to do that today.

 

I would then tell him you are 100% in today, and tomorrow you will get up and try to be 100% in, but at some point, if he has not figured it out, you will give up too. Because loving someone who does not love you back in the same way is unbearable.

 

And then, if it does not change his actions, his actions, not his words, then I would move out, visit a lawyer and file for divorce, often (if you read the books) that snaps them out of it. If not, well then, it wouldnt have succeeded anyway.

 

But again, I would just up and disappear for a while, that's my MO.

 

This post is the one I'm talking about. This post is very, very good.

 

Mrs. S, I've followed your story from the beginning. I recognize my own experience in yours.

 

But, I've seen you making good progress.

 

To avoid the "parent thing" :rolleyes: put it on yourself that YOU can't handle his wishy-washy behavior. Don't put the ultimatum on him (not saying you are) but put it on yourself and tell him that you want him to be happy. Use the I statements, not the you statements but really, make this about YOU because dang it, it's about time that it was!

[Mrs.S.]

Please don't think what I am suggesting is a game, I am suggesting that you do something to change the dynamic.

 

Assuming he is still in that holding pattern of not being willing to step forward or back. You need to kick him off the fence, whichever way he goes is actually ok but the fence sitting has to end...

 

...I would then tell him you are 100% in today, and tomorrow you will get up and try to be 100% in, but at some point, if he has not figured it out, you will give up too. Because loving someone who does not love you back in the same way is unbearable.

 

And then, if it does not change his actions, his actions, not his words, then I would move out, visit a lawyer and file for divorce, often (if you read the books) that snaps them out of it. If not, well then, it wouldnt have succeeded anyway.

 

This gave me so much to think about and I absolutely agree that the dynamic needs to be changed. I've been asking and requesting and wishing (perceived as demands) and things need to shift to where he's deciding and choosing (perceived as willingness).

 

 

When I read that post after trip, I was like, man, I would go ballistic if my former spouse had told me he had "lingering feelings" for some chick at work. I don't know how your coping with these open and honest revelations.

 

Clearly it's devastating, though part of me understands that the EA did happen and real feelings resulted from that. Realistically, you can't just turn feelings and attraction off like a switch, even if you know they're wrong and even if you do immediately end your actions. That's why I really feel that she needs to be completely out of the picture in order for his feelings to die off.

 

There is this thing called "trickle-truth."...If so, maybe look into the term "gaslighting."

 

I do know what trickle-truth and gas lighting are and that's part of the reason I know she has to be completely cut out of the picture. My gut does trust him this time, though he has been doing exactly those things for the past three months and all parts of the situation that caused it need to be gone.

 

 

Have you thought about how this young lady might be feeling? I mean your husband is in a position of power - and you nor we really know what she feels. How would you feel in her position, even with the scenario your husband came up with? I would at best feel bewildered, and at worst, confused, maybe hurt, and concerned about my job.

 

When she first found out that he had feelings for her (I texted her from his phone the very night I found out), she was mortified and apologized. She said she was just trying to be a good friend to him like he was to her and that she has a long-term boyfriend, etc. She said that she was very embarrassed and that she hopes that we work things out. She also said she hopes this doesn't affect her job. I believed her. The very next morning, within 15 minutes of me leaving for work, she texted him and asked if he was ok and said that she was worried about him. He told her that he was fine and that they had to keep their contact strictly professional because he is married and can't be doing this. She said ok, but that she really likes talking to him. So...my opinion of her lowered after that. If she was truly mortified at the idea of causing a married man (and superior at work) to harm his marriage (and potentially his job) and she truly cared about him as a friend, she would have stepped completely out and never contacted him again. But she strung him along and kept herself viewed in as innocent a light as she could.

 

One more thing. Already posted perhaps. Why should you be the "bad guy" to tell him he has to quit his job so you feel safe? He should have had 20 resumes out while you were away on the trip if he cared a dang. Research shows there is no healing for the betrayed spouse when the third party remains in the picture. He knows, I think, that he can pull this one off his way, and you will eat it. But he could very well be wrong about that.

 

I told him this much this morning. I'll post about that below. Good to hear from you again Yas

 

 

1.How do you force him to get off the fence without feeding you into the mommy dynamic with him.

 

2. And how do you keep your dignity so that when the dust settles you respect yourself enough to stay in the marriage.

 

As for 1. You can tell him you need him to make a choice, I think you have tried that, but it plays into the rebellion nonsense. You can wait for him to get his act together which interferes with 2. You put the responsibility in his lap to fix it with an implied consequence in a soft way (my first recommendation). Or you visit a lawyer and file for divorce (not just move out, you need to show consequence).

 

For 2 it's harder, I think that in many cases the problem comes after they come back...cause most of them do. It's whether you can forgive yourself for what happened...him stringing you along, you begging, at some point it is whether you can respect yourself. That's why I recommend one last, statement, no arguing, no fighting. If he isn't willing to put you first, then he can be alone.

 

EXACTLY. All of this - exactly. I had a conversation with him this morning, which I'll tell you about below. I think (hope) it balances #1 with #2.

 

Unless I've missed something here, is the home in his name only (mortgage/lease?)....if he won't leave, there are measures to make him leave and they don't have to get ugly.

 

No our house is in both of our names. I'm not even concerned with who stays or goes at this point. He says it's not staying in the house that is the reason he doesn't want to leave, it's because he wants things to work with us and to be together. Honestly, I could move closer to work, which would be a benefit. If you have to look for a silver lining.

 

This thread has spun so far out of control, I have to bid you all farewell.

 

I'm sorry. I'm inferring that you think I should have more faith in what he's saying/doing? I'm trying.

 

So, not much has changed in your situation except for your own realizations...

 

...Save yourself. I like the post above where you just say very calmly that you can't do this anymore. Read that post over and over again! Change the words/add what you need to make it your own and tell your H.

 

Thanks. I feel better that I did make a decision and kindly and calmly let him know this morning. I'll post it below so that this post isn't too much of a behemoth. I appreciate all of your thoughts, I really do.

[Mrs.S.]

This morning I asked him I could talk to him for five minutes before I left for work because I didn't want him to feel like I was cornering him or attacking him. He said that he appreciated that. So before I left I calmly told him that I don't like the dynamic of me repeatedly asking, requesting, demanding that he make the choice to end all contact with her and to remove her from his life. I said that this is something that he should have chosen to do before I even had to ask. I said that I'm not going to ask again and that we don't even need to discuss this topic anymore - we've both said everything there is to say at this point.

 

I said that I love him very much and would do anything to keep him from feeling the way I do - and that not being loved like that in return is killing me. I told him that I believe what he says about not talking to her and avoiding any contact and interaction unless necessary for work. He said that it's true and that he even uses a different break room so he doesn't run into her. However, I told him that the feelings of attachment and attraction are still there, even if he's at the point where he wishes they weren't, and this is not a safe place for our marriage to heal.

 

I said that I'm at the point where I need to be released from feeling this hurt, anxious and worried. And I know that he does, too. I told him that whether he wants to admit it or not, he's had an affair. I said, I don't know if you don't want to admit it because you think an affair can only be a physical betrayal or if you just don't want to admit that you're a person who has had an affair, but you have. And all contact with her, professional or not, has to end in order for us to move on. You can't justify holding onto the anticipation of being near her, even if it's from afar, with office logistics. This is our marriage and any kind of logistical or office complication should be insignificant compared to this.

 

I said that I leave on Sunday for my work conference and I return next Wednesday night (a week from today). I need him to get off of the fence and make his decision. If the decision isn't to do what's best for our marriage, I have to do what's best for me and move out. I said that I won't be moving out just to wait it out for him, but I will be filing for a divorce.

 

I said it isn't a threat or an ultimatum and I've thought about it and am prepared to follow through. I know that I love him and would do whatever is necessary to end this nightmare for him. Knowing that he won't do the same for me is breaking my heart.

 

He said that he had one question. He asked if he has to have completely removed her by next Wednesday or if it's ok that he has a plan that is in motion. I said it's ok if the plan is in motion, but it has to actually be in motion. I said you've been saying for weeks that you've been "thinking of a way" but I haven't seen any action.

 

He didn't say much else so I asked him if he wanted to say anything else. He said that he didn't because he knows that I need to see his actions, not just hear his words. I told him that I don't want him to "fall on his sword" or sacrifice himself to a horrible work schedule or do anything that makes his life worse - this should be a decision that makes both of our lives better. That's the whole point. He said that he'll figure something out and not to worry about him with the work schedule, that it will be what it has to be.

 

I said that I didn't want him to see this as a challenge that I want him to fail or another threat or ultimatum. This is what I have to do to heal from this. He said that he really doesn't think that because we promised we would stop assuming the worst of each other and he meant it.

 

Honestly, I feel a little bad about possibly putting him in a position to work a difficult schedule or forcing him to do something uncomfortable at work. But I also know that getting close to her for purely selfish reasons didn't make him feel bad enough to stop. I didn't cause this to happen in any way. I think in order to reinforce that I'm not making a threat or asserting power over him (aka the "mommy" dynamic), I am going to make sure that I continue to treat him in a loving and caring way. I'll assume that he'll make the right choice and be the loving wife that he does want. Why would he choose our marriage over this girl if I'm still angry and argumentative and accusatory? His decision will be what it will be, so why project anger towards him now? It will be hard to stop wondering and asking questions and imagining the worst while he's at work, but I have to give this the best chance. I have to give him one more chance, too.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Mrs.S.

[Yasuandio]

Pretty darn good. A little wavering - when u inquired if he need to know more, but pretty darn good. Now, that was an ultimatum. You have to follow through. He has been informed.

 

His response, to the effect of "can it be in process, or does it have to be in completion by that time," indicated a negotiation-bargaining strategy (time-buying) position, at least to me. (But I have no sympathy for this guy now - cause I think he's pulling the wool over our eyes).

 

That said, you and he both are scared. But it is too late, u stated your position, and that is that. Personally, I agree 100% with your position. And I would not accept any "in progress" results either. Either "do or do not," as Mr. Owl says. Furthermore, different hours at the company, I don't know about that. I go with Marriage Builders - 100% no contact, not even a chance to cross paths in the parking lot, period. I also believe he knows exactly what needs to happen.

 

After those remarks about "Lingering Feeling" and "continued attraction," or

man, I cannot get that out of my head Mrs. S., and I'm not even you! I was up till 2am seathing about that. Oh dear. I have seen some crime shows on TV about things like this. I know you are smart Mrs. S., and you got yourself under control. Your a better woman than me. I am not going to even tell you the image I have in my mind about what I would do to this guy. Stay strong. Don't back down! No talk-talk, total waste of time now. You have done Laid Down The Law, Period. Don't get your hopes up, just in case, this is propably gonna take some time and real action to wake this guy up. By for now. Yas