Marriage: What's the point?

[johnlucas]

Hello everybody here in LoveShack.org. New member here.

My name is John Lucas & I have a question.

 

I see shows like Divorce Court & hear so many stories about marriage nightmares. Have some in my own family like we all do (or just about us all anyway). Reading the Infidelity section & the confusion & fog people go through.

 

You know I gotta ask as a single 28-year old (yep told on myself already huh?)...

 

What is the point of marriage?

 

I can't really see it.

 

It looks like hell to be frank.

So much confusion. People changing mid-relationship for whatever reason emotionally. People simply falling out of love which is not really anybody's fault in the end of it. All the secret spying people start doing for fear their mate is not honest & faithful to them. The uncertainty of it all. The endless paranoia. The wish to be told the truth or in some case NOT to be told the truth as in to believe in the fantasy of the marriage still being together. Sexual incompatibility issues. Somebody has out of sync libidos & this could cause straying or resentment. The control issues. People marry and suddenly see their mate as mere property & act like some 24/7 policeman. The "King of the Castle" mentality. The "Queen Bee" mentality. The lack of excitement & desire to keep things fresh in a relationship the longer it goes on. The pettiness. The irrationality. That old line about "staying together for the kids". The worship of the ceremony of the marriage (the big wedding) over the actual marriage itself. The money issues. The spending/saving issues. Abusive spouses-physical & mental. The "stay simply for security" issues. The unprovoked jealousy issues. The alimony issues. People who married for money & status. People who marry for ego. People who pressure their mate into marriage. People who marry to gain new lovers on the side because of that "married" status. The "strangers in the same house" issues. The lack of touch & concern as the relationship goes on. The noise & the arguing. The lies of all stripes. The feel that you HAVE to be married to satisfy society & family. So many things I can name.

 

I look at all this & I ask myself "What the hell is this for?"

"What purpose does it serve?" "What good is it really?" "How does it benefit anybody?" "And what are those benefits?" "Are they marginal or substantial?"

 

I know a couple who the man married an older woman (not too much older but older) mainly for security. She was a nurse & had a big house. Was it ever about love I couldn't say. They stayed together about 4 years I think & ended up divorced for reasons I can't know (wasn't there).

 

I know a couple, an old couple, who stays together in the same house but live in two separate bedrooms. They often are contentious & tend to argue a lot. Not all the time but it's semi-frequent. At that age where else are they gonna go? I'm sure that's the thought they have in their heads. Basically staying together for companionship & fear of dying alone.

 

I know a friend who got married last year. After the ceremony he tells me it's about time for ME to get married to which I said AND thought "Yeah right. You must don't know me very well do you?" I've recently learned that the woman had cheated on him & is basically using him as her nanny for the kid she brought into the relationship.

 

How many times have I seen Maury Povich episodes with couples & paternity issues. You are NOT the father! Hahahahahaha!

 

How many times have I seen guys dirt over their wife for some other girl with no remorse, respect or concern about the wife.

 

How many stories do you hear of proud cheaters who see taking someone else's mate as a trophy on the wall? An ego-boost with regards to the person's perceived attractiveness.

 

So what's the use?

 

Stay together for the kids??? Kids are gonna be damaged NO MATTER how it goes. What's better a broken home or a poisonous home? Kids not being able to see parents apart have issues but kids seeing two people under the same roof full of resentment & scorn for one another just as similarly have issues.

 

Sometimes relationships can be healed and sometimes it's not worth saving.

 

The preoccupation of paranoid behavior wondering what the other spouse might be doing next. Checking up like a P.I. on every little thing. Sometimes stirring up unnecessary trust issues which repel a faithful spouse away.

 

Control freaks trying to rule the roost as if they're the only ones that matter.

 

Sometimes rifts due to understandable outside causes like conflicting schedules & being overworked. No time for each other & the bond spreads apart. Distance especially with truck drivers & soldiers. Not to mention sports stars & entertainers.

 

Then sometimes just the simple matter of marriage becoming too routine.

Where the whole thing seems like a chore. It becomes habit rather than anything substantive. They keep it up just to keep up the status of being married yet the energy of their love has long faded.

 

People getting married for the sole purpose of trying to change the other spouse. To show that you can mold somebody. Another ego thing.

 

People being together beforehand then with a simple little ceremony all of a sudden acting totally different making up things the other person should be now that they are under "married" status....when these same things weren't even an issue before.

 

People treating marriage like a hunt. You seek your prey then snare him/her with that ring. Now he/she is yours & is your property. With all the domineering behavior that follows suit.

 

The interference marriage. A marriage that actually works well for once but is under attack by outside forces like family members & friends on both sides. The in-laws & their refusal to accept your mate. The friends & the contention between them & your mate. If left to its own devices the marriage wil be torn apart by these interlopers who have control issues.

 

The golddigger/gigolo marriages. Somebody has a lot of wealth & this is the focal point for this kind of spouse who sought those things.

 

The fairytale marriage. People getting too caught up in the Cinderella tales (male & female) & looking at marriage as what it isn't and never was. Getting so caught up in the engagement/wedding aspect & all those little rituals forgetting that the focus should be on the actual marriage relation itself. The late realization of their fairytale world not fitting the reality of the situation & the following disappointed & dejection at this discovery.

 

The "trapped" marriages. A couple has sex, there's a kid, now we HAVE to get married because society says so. Our family would frown on us if we didn't.

 

The pressure marriage...sometimes from the other mate, SOMETIMES from the family itself. Yours and/or the other's. Not to mention the friends.

 

The expectation marriage. A person who rushes into a marriage pressured or not solely out of the belief that they are supposed to do this at a certain stage of life. They do it out of some duty aspect & desire to please others which can include the spouse. The shock when they realize they made a mistake well into the union & the dilemma they face afterwards.

 

The sexless marriage. Everything else goes right or nearly goes right but one spouse won't give any sexual attention to the other. He keeps up with your birthday & brings you flowers; she gives you massages & fixes meals for you but neither seem inclined to pay ANY sexual attention to the other. Sex is a chore to these folks. And it's not a temporary issue that can be overcome it seems permanent. Everyone's sex drives go haywire from time to time (well most maybe) but this is something different. What are you supposed to do?

 

The budget-battle marriage. Someone spends too much. Someone hordes too much. One works & is defensive on money matters while the other is more care-free. One budgets, the other splurges. Fights over bills & purchases. Credit card craziness. These roles not necessarily fixed as one being exclusinvely male or exclusively female. It's absolutely interchangeable. One works & spends while the other who doesn't work tries to save. Hurricane Finance blowing through.

 

The fighting marriage. Everyday is an argument contest. The issue is moot: it can be from anything like paying a bill late to leaving the cap off the toothpaste to putting a spoon in the fork tray...doesn't matter. It is the launchpad for war of words. Daily. Day in. Day out. Multiple times a day. All week. All month. All year. SQUABBLE SQUABBLE SQUABBLE SQUABBLE SQUABBLE SQUABBLE SQUABBLE!

 

Really people what is the point 'cause I can't see it. More negatives than positives in this arrangement.

 

However, I am not totally jaded because I HAVE seen marriages that work.

 

I know a couple both who were divorced once before earlier who seem to have a wonderful marriage. They are not officially married by ceremony but it's bascially common law I guess you can say. They both brought kids from previous relations & the whole family gets along. They have spark, passion, warmth, sexual compatibility, openness, security, & genuine affection. They may argue every now & then (not even that much really) but on the whole the relationship works from what I see.

 

I saw a couple on TV...in their 90s or something maybe 80s not sure. They married early. At 19. Or was it 17 can't remember. Not too long after they first met. And they have stayed together all of these years & from what they told the reporter I saw this on they have never fought. That's right. NEVER FOUGHT. NEVER ARGUED. They seem to be absolutely 50/50. A marriage that actually totally works. And they STILL have the spark. They STILL have genuine affection for each other. Passionate.

 

At this stage I think marriage is largely an archaic social construct. It's time to redefine it & possibly remove the importance of it.

It DOES work if the right people get together & do the right thing but mostly it ends up for one reason or ten or twenty being living hell or at the very least mediocrity.

 

Marriage should be seen as one of many options rather than the final destination. Some people are not made for marriage. We're not absolutely mongamous and we're not absolutely polygamous or polyamorous if you will (trying to keep the word origin in tact). Like the Creator who made us & all else that we call the universe we are a paradox & we have to reexamine who we are & define all the little degrees that make us up.

 

I think it needs to be taught that people should learn about themselves before trying to jump into marriage.

The social pressure must cease. The "what is expected of you" aspect has to be trashed.

 

Time to reexamine & be HONEST about human nature in ALL of its aspects good & bad. And to define these things SOLIDLY so that people can assess what they need & what they are looking for & not fall into these life-wasting, time-wasting fiascos when a marriage turns to sh*t.

 

Any opinions on what I just wrote here.

What is the point? I can't figure it out.

 

John Lucas

[iceprincess]

WOw...seems like you dissected it inside and out. Well, marriage to ME is when two people, who LOVE each other, want to spend the rest of their lives together.

 

Of course you're right though, many people marry for all the wrong reasons. It doesn't have to be that way though because when you meet the right person, then there shouldn't be any problems.

[Moose]

WOW!!!! What a book!!!

 

It's sad but the truth is that society took God's idea of Marriage and trashed it. Commercialised it, twisted and bent it.

 

And to prove it, not ONCE in your whole book was it mentioned that marriage was created by God.

 

If you knew Scripture, read it and what God's intentions where, then you would understand the point.

 

Forget what society teaches you and dig into the TRUTH.

[dixieman]

Two facts that must be met head-on: 1) humans do not mate for life, 2) humans are not monogamous. Both of these traits are true of most animals and all mammals. It may be a noble goal for a couple to achieve either or both of these traits (and when a relationship first starts seems possible), but it is not in our nature. So what is the best way to deal with it, tough it out for 50 years after the first good five or ten? I don't know, but let's not deny that marriage is going against our nature.

[Karlise13]

And quite honestly, marriage is an invention of man.....not God (in my opinion)

 

 

Marriage for the sake of romance is a relatively new concept; over the centuries, people generally got married for strategic familial or political alliances (if they were upper class)

 

or because it was the only way a 'respectable' woman would be allowed to bear children (the rest of the population)

 

 

Marriage is a societal convention. Nothing more, nothing less. If two people are together for a lifetime and love each but are denied the 'right' to marry (as are many gay people in many states) is their union somehow demeaning or fraudelent? I see some gay couples who treat each other with a great deal more love and respect than many hetero couples.

 

I'm sorry Moose, but there is more than one 'truth'. Funny how the 'truth' pushers all consider THEIR way the 'good clean livin' kind of way and all others are headed straight for the tarry pits of hell.

 

Don't you think the great, beautiful miracle of life is just a tad more complex than that? Perhaps there are many truths out there? Just as the great scientist Stephen Hawking points out, there are more than three dimensions in the universe. There may be perhaps, seven or nine or fourteen. Realities that we humans can barely begin to comprehend. The complexity of human love and human relationships must surely be just as complex as a mere universe. How can we sum up 'marriage = good.....no marriage = bad'

 

But I digress.

 

I agree with the earlier poster that many marriages seem to fall apart quickly. The foundations are lacking, the expectations are unrealistic and people forget the basic rule of human relationships; we all need kindness, we all need understanding, we all need safety, we all crave connection. If both parties are not striving to bring these things to a relationship, something gives way as do rotted boards on an abandoned building.

 

Too many of us have failed to grasp these basics of human relating growing up; we may have been taught to value material goods over people, we may have been taught to neglect our own needs or to bully others. Whatever the case may be, until we learn to

 

(a) Love who we are and embrace our singular uniqueness

 

(b) Feel empathy for other people

 

© Believe that kindness and connection are vital to life

 

(d) Treat others as we would like to be treated and not just give that idea lip service

 

 

I think the divorce rate will remain at 60% or thereabouts.

[faux]

Marriage does not work out for a lot of people. However, I think that if I found someone I felt I loved enough, and I was with that person for a long amount of time, I would probably want to try out marriage with that person. I know that I might be taking a big risk if I were to get married, but I really want to try it. If it works out, it could be the most amazing part of my life.

[dyermaker]

A lot of people think marriage is rooted in religion. It's not.

 

It's rooted in property, and existed before Judaism, and the modern concept of monotheism.

[Moose]

Originally posted by dyermaker

A lot of people think marriage is rooted in religion. It's not.

 

It's rooted in property, and existed before Judaism, and the modern concept of monotheism.

 

That's just YOUR opinion, MY OPINION, you're wrong.....very wrong!!!!

[Pookette]

If you watch shows like Maury Povich and Divorce Court, you're going to lose faith in the human race altogether, not just the marriage aspect of it.

 

Yes, some marriages have problems. Some marriages have enough problems that they fall apart. But how would life be if there were no problems? How would you grow and evolve as a person if you didn't have difficulty now and then? How would you learn? People aren't really really thinking about all the angles of a marriage. Sure, it would be a hoot to be married in Vegas by an Asian Elvis, but a year down the road when the girl is preggers and the guy is working his a$$ of for a few bucks it's not so fun.

 

If you meet a person that's special enough, you're eventually going to want to marry her or him. You can't just focus on the negative marriages you've seen on Maury. My grandparents were married for 60 years, until my grandpa died this June. That's 60 years with the same person. My parents have been married for 26 years. I hope to do the same with my husband.

 

If you expect a marriage to fail, it will. If you expect to succeed, you will, problems be damned.

[hotgurl]

I don't beleave that humans aren't monomgmous. Also some animals are I think wolves mate for life and certsin birds.

 

I think marraige is what you make it.

[izzybelle]

marriage is definitely what you make or it, or in my case what you don't make of it!

 

my grandparents both died this past summer. they had been married for 75 years!!! i just can't imagine being married to someone for that long and i know on one hand they drove each other crazy. when my grandmother ended up in the hospital rumor was that my grandfather hadn't been that happy in years. sounds sad but they were together constantly and in his case he may have just been relieved for the first time in 75 years to be able to eat what he wanted or walk around in his underwear. i don't know.

 

i've often wondered what would happen if marriage was more of a short term committment, every 3 years you needed to renew your lease. would people be more willing to work at things if they new that a "spouse" could up and leave after the lease was up? i know, i know it's much more complicated than that and i know what that would do to kids, so no, i'm not really being serious. but i do wonder if because people fall into this, i'm "stuck" or "i have this person" for life mentality that they stop really feeling like it's something that constantly needs to be worked at. it's too easy to settle in for the ride.

 

personally, i was married young for about a year and then again for about 12. i have kids and don't plan on having more so at this point i'm going with the lease option! wonder how the whole mileage allowance would work with that?

[hotgurl]

that's just it once the ring is on people take each other for granted. Marriage is work but it is beautiful. Like I know never been married.

 

Yeah sometimes you want to kill each other but the best is you know you'll always have someone there for you. My aunt has been married for like 16 years and they still are cuddly and hold hands. She said the are some things that are definite deals breaks ie cheating, hitting but everything else you comprise on, accept, or work on

[izzybelle]

you're right, seeing a couple that is still so much in love after a number of years of marriage is a wonderful sight. but yes, it's those deal breakers. friends of mine were always like that and i always envied them. holding hands, a little kiss on the cheek, always attentive with that look in their eyes that said that they really still were so in love. and now they're on the verge of divorce. not totally sure if there's infidelity involved or if their lives just suddenly went in different directions but they've gone from cuddly to distant. they're basically living separate lives under the same roof.

 

it's been hard to watch since i'd always secretly hoped that someday, maybe...... but nothing's perfect and even things that look that way to the outside world may not be. but one moment of weakness, or a change in life style (she got a new job) and everything changes. and i guess that's what i find to be the hardest thing to accept. but then again, is anything ever really for forever?

[quankanne]

alotta good points made here, but I think I identify most closely with what hotgurl shared:

 

in some instances, there is no room for variation or change (like cheating or abuse), but in others, you agree to compromise or work things out in order to do what's best for the marriage.

 

there are many, many couples who go into a relationship expecting to change each other or who don't factor in room for growth in their relationship or within themselves. They don't allow for the realities of marriage (sex, finances/money, families, children, work, etc.), and don't understand why these things aren't working because they haven't done anything to prepare themselves for these things.

 

the Catholic church views marriage as a sacrament and as a vocation. Meaning, it's more than just two folks getting legally hitched: it's a lifetime commitment that the party needs to see as more than just being able to live with the person you're in love with. It's an everyday decision to say yes and a decision to stick to that commitment ...

 

we've got marriage preparation classes and retreats for couples getting ready to marry, and they cannot marry in the church without these classes. Most of the time, they learn a lot more about each other – about things they never thought to ask about while dating -- and they come away with a better appreciation of what they're getting into. Sometimes, that preparation leads to a break up, because the couple understands that it's too early to be thinking mariage and they need time to address certain issues, or they realize that they're not ready for marriage, period. I've heard of proposals by civil courts where a couple seeking civil marriage take similar courses to ensure they know what they're getting into, ideally so that the courts can cut down on the divorce rate.

 

it's easy to buy all the negative things you hear about marriage, but I think putting your faith in the things that go wrong or could go wrong is taking the easy way out.

 

nothing worthwhile comes easy; marriage is hard work, but worth every bit of it if this is the path you chose in life ....

[quankanne]

is anything ever really for forever?

 

 

that brings to mind the old joke, "What's the difference between love and herpes?"

 

"Herpes is forever!"

[quankanne]

re: izzybelle's post

 

would it be safe to describe marriage as a living, breathing entity that must allow for change/growth in order to survive? That it must be like the tree that bends in a strong gust of wind so that it doesn't split in two (compromise)?

[izzybelle]

you do make some good points. unfortunately, personally i found the catholic church's premarriage classes, at best amusing, at worse totally useless. yes, i went through them too.

 

there was just something bizarre about having a couple with six kids talk about birth control! as much as they tried to "prepare" us for the real life struggles we'd be facing, they didn't even come close. and most of the couples there were only there because they had to be. that in and of itself made it seem useless. sorry, don't mean to offend but like with anything, it's all what you put into it.

 

my relationship with my finance at the time was incredibly strong and i was convinced that we'd be together forever. it never even crossed my mind that we'd end the way we did, and i know it didn't cross his mind either. and at that point, while there were things about him that bothered me, they didn't seem major. but after about 5 years and two kids, those minor things became major issues. he had, and still has a problem with the truth. at first it was just who he was and kind of amusing. he was very focused on him, advancing his studies and his career. honorable at the time and actually exciting to watch and think about. reality was the kids and i got pushed to the background, treated as a second, third or fourth priority. and once his studies were finished and his career was on track the relationship was so far gone that there was no hope in saving it.

 

my point is... no matter how much one tries to prepare oneself for what's to come, you just don't know until you've lived it. and hopefully people learn to cope and handle those changes but reality is many like me, can't or won't. the divorce rate isn't so high because people just get bored. society, the pressures and real life are hard enough to deal without throwing how expectations, needs, etc. also change over time.

 

please don't get me wrong. i love seeing couples who have managed making it through the tough times and are still so much in love it's almost sickening. but it's wonderful to watch and even better to be friends with people who have made it work. i guess just from personal experience, i'm just a little disillusioned.

[izzybelle]

quankanne, yes, i think your analogy is correct. marriage does need to be nurtured and cared for and i think much like a tree able to bend and not break. and the roots must be deep enough and strong enough to weather any storm. unfortunately it's hard to tell how deep your roots go until you've really been with that person for a while.

 

and i know, i seem reasonably anti-marriage at this point in my life. but on a positive side, it's taken me until now, i'm 45 to know what i really would look for in a mate. a friend of mine who married in his 20s and is having some problems in his marriage said the same thing to me one day. he loves his kids and wouldn't change anything about that, but he's a different person now than he was then, and so is his wife.

 

i hope, and don't honestly think that most people go into marriage just thinking it's a short term thing (like my lease idea) but when you're young, it's so hard to tell what's going to happen and how the people around you are going to change or not change in response to life's challenges.

 

but, yes, given the proper care and attention, people do make it.

[HokeyReligions]

You don't need a marriage license for a couple to experience all of those things.

 

So, why not stop dating at all --- why take a chance on developing feelings for someone?

 

I've been married for over 20 years. Why? That sense of belonging is very powerful.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by izzybelle

you do make some good points. unfortunately, personally i found the catholic church's premarriage classes, at best amusing, at worse totally useless. yes, i went through them too.

 

 

I got married young and in fact am still legally married but my husband is in federal prison. His dad is the youth minister at their Presbyterian church so we had to take those marriage prep classes, and got that stupid discount on our marriage license.

 

Truth is, I have never understood the point of marriage. Not even when I was getting married. As far as I could tell...I did some side research on this issue a few years ago....marriage is a social construction, a legal contract governing the transfer of property (the woman) between two individuals (father to husband). It's an institution that was created to "protect" the subjugated female. Promise Keepers, as far as I can tell, and according to a hilarious David Cross bit, are a modern day, "hip" approach to subjugating women.

 

I haven't yet gotten an answer that is logically satisfying. I've heard religious arguments (opinions aren't really appropriate for debate, I need hard facts), personal rhetoric, private morality...nothing concrete. I am most interested in the answer to this.

[sumdude]

Hi John. Welcome. I've been hanging out here a year or two. Been with my girl for 5 1/2 years and getting married in a few months. I'm 36 she's 34. Don't consider this site totally representative. It's more likely people come here because they are having relationship problems. Some are just curious, some want advice etc. Think of most marriages as a silent majority, not much of a majority in the USA but people who live their lives rather contentedly aren't going to spend as much time on sites like this. Those wacky talk shows look for the worst and craziest. Otherwise they wouldn't have ratings. Who wants to watch an adjusted fairly normal married couple with their kids talk about fights about homework, sharing the remote, the car, boy/girlfreinds etc.?

 

Just think of it this way. Is anything in life without a potential downside? Especially things that are worth the risk? Things will change in your life. At 28 I was single, running around, having fun, partying, had a big circle of friends who were always around to hang out with. Yet I was still partially miserable. I wasn't dying to get married, have kids etc. but something was missing.

 

At 36 those friends aren't really around anymore. I still enjoy partying but being out at clubs etc. just doesn't really work anymore. I would hate to be without my fiancee. Not that we haven't had ups, downs, lefts, rights and all in between. But if you are in love, BOTH go in with an open heart, open eyes and an open mind it can be so rewarding in your life. I can't explain it more than that. You have to experience it for yourself. Nothing good in life comes without a price or without some risk. By staying single you risk guarantee long term loneliness and that kind of broken heart. By getting married you risk it not working out and a broken heart as well.

 

So in 10-20 we'll see if my tune changes.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

That's just YOUR opinion, MY OPINION, you're wrong.....very wrong!!!!

There are opinions, and then there's history. There is, of course, a little grey area in history, but not so much as to call it 'opinion'.

 

The concept of marriage predates the Bible. That's a fact. Of course, you could argue that God is omnipresent, but the people getting married weren't following a religion anything like today's understanding of God. Additionally, marriage and religion weren't closely related.

 

So, it can still be your opinion that I'm wrong. In fact, you can even be certain that I'm wrong, but you're mistaken.

 

Originally posted by hotgurl

I don't beleave that humans aren't monomgmous. Also some animals are I think wolves mate for life and certsin birds.

I agree with you completely!

 

I don't know whether humans were designed for monogamy, but I'm not willing to write it off as 'no', simply because we're 'animals.'

 

By the way, I know 'certain birds' includes penguins.

[johnlucas]

Wow! So many replies since I last checked in. Hm. So many differing viewpoints. I like that! I love message boards. You tend to get the best representation of people's true views there. Or at least the beliefs they take to heart at that time in their life. More people really need to mine these places to understand issues of all sorts.

 

Anyhow. There's so many responses that need person by person responses.

Here we go:

 

To Ice Princess: Yes I tried to give the COMPLETE rundown as best I could. I do that a lot in message boards I write in. I never want to leave out anyone's reality. So that they say "Well that hasn't happened to me" or "He forgot about my situation". And not just to focus all on negative and all on positive. Trying to get completion to get the total comprehensive reality. Tends to end up in windiness but that's another of my unfortunate traits (or fortunate if you're into windiness hahaha ).

 

Marriages I love & respect ARE those marriages you mentioned when people are truly there for each other and not for material gain or ulterior motives or control. Simply to BE with each other & all that entails. Giving of the heart & be true to one another. Those marriages look to me to be the most fruitful & healthy marriages.

The for life aspect I think shouldn't be the goal really because it creates this mission aspect. The marriage becomes a contest to see who can keep it up the longest for some social display. The focus is displaced if this is focused on too much. That will be the result naturally if the people are connected truly & giving of their hearts every day. To focus on the forever aspect I think can make people forget what the union is about.

 

And yes I wish people would stop marrying without understanding what a marriage is so we wouldn't end up with all this hell.

Is it as simple as meeting the right person? Well I think more goes into it than that. Sometimes it starts out that they are in perfect vibe but people change and one day that may not be true to their shock & dismay. It's optimistic thinking (which is wonderful) but precisely what comprises "the right person" is the eternal mystery in relationships.

 

Appreciated your feedback Ice Princess. Thank you very much!

 

To Moose: Wow. I have read a selection of the topics here & I see you are definitely a regular around these parts. First off let me say from reading your words around the threads that I respect very much your conviction in your beliefs & your earnesty. You say what you really mean but respect the fact that everyone doesn't have to think like you do. That's the mark of a fair-minded poster. Outspoken but not a bully. I respect people like that.

 

Can't say I fully agree with all you said. CAN agree on your point that society corrupts marriage & it has become much what it was not. You say marriage was created by God. Hm I don't know. My beliefs on religion & God will throw MANY people for a loop. 'Cause I've thought about this much over the years. I'm not at ALL atheistic yet I don't fully follow any religion. I was raised a Baptist but some things in religion just didn't sit right with me. And looking at the world made me question even more.

 

What I like about religion is that it gives people structure & impedes them to tap into their humanistic positive qualities. Also that it gives people hope.

What I DON'T like about religion is the control freak aspects & the judgmentalness (is that a word?). Also the belief that one person's religion's way is the ONLY way. This is a large reason for the fanning of wars throughout history amongst other injustices.

 

Hey I like to talk with people on matters like this. Would you like to start up a discussion about trading viewpoints on religion/science one day? I'm just itching to share my views! Used to talk with a Jehovah's Witness when I was a teen on a regular basis about such matters. I think that's how matters like that should be discussed more quite frankly.

 

Point me in the direction of which chapters you are referring to on God's intentions on marriage. I got a Teen Study Bible right here in my bookcase.

 

Thanks Moose. I valued your thoughts.

 

To dixieman: Yeah I'm inclined to agree with this assessment myself. Though it is not impossible. I said it in the original post that we're not fully monogamous or polygamous (polyamorous) either. There IS a need to be bonded with someone and belong. And yet there is that impulse to try out the exotic new thing. I believe it's like everything in creation....on a continuum. They're beginning to find out how hard it is to precisely determine male from female. It's not as black & white as they thought. Check out intersex people & the XXY XXXY craziness. Same with the homosexuality vs. heterosexuality issue. And the gender roles issue. It's not even a linear continuum...it's more of a 3-D spherical continuum in my opinion. Some of us lean toward singular mating for life. Some of us lean toward being the freaks who got to be on the continuous prowl. And mostly many people are a bit of both. Which is where I think most of the confusion lies. To their confoundment & befuddlement as well.

 

You have to wonder if it was so out of our nature why did we even start it in the first place? Well that's just human nature I guess. To do stuff out of sync with nature. Boy we're a confusing lot.

 

Good words dixieman. Thanks.

 

To Karlise13: Yes I believe this too, Karlise. I'm not sure this is quite so divine. I think people mix up two people bonding together long-term with the institution of marriage. When people date even they practically are married already. Why do you think people make such a big deal of "cheating" & worrying about who spends time with your boyfriend/girlfriend? They're not officially "married" are they? But yet they act like the person has made a violation. It's the bonding rather than the ritual of marriage that seems to be the issue. Which is one big reason why I put this post together in the first place. What's really the difference? And what's the point?

 

Like you said & I said, it's a social artifice. Like many social artifices we put together. I look at Divorce Court & hear about divorces in other arenas & I hear a bunch of materialistic crap. How much this goes to who & how much that goes to where. I'm like is this all it's about? At no other time do I see quite that level of falseness of the institution. You hear about the arranged marriages & the dowry & all that. Indian marriages & such. It looks so arranged and put upon. Doesn't seem real. Realizing why people sometimes HAVE to put up prenups when you see how some marriages end in someone using someone else for their money. And these people are not always easy to spot. And sometimes they emerge instead of just always being there.

 

Me & you seem to be on the same plane of thought on this. The REAL issue is the truth of heart to the person you spend your time with.

Your A, B, C, & D are great guidelines that I think people need to pay attention to before involving themselves in any quality long-term relationship.

From what I see this is the recipe for a quality relationship of love. And somehow I don't necessarily see the social ritual of marriage as the key or container of this.

 

Liked your viewpoints Karlise13. Thank you for sharing.

 

[more in part 2] [space constraints]

[johnlucas]

[continuing from part 1]

 

To Faux: Well I like your realistic optimism ther Faux. Reasonable hope not blind hope. Yes indeed you can't run your life in total fear of what may happen. Just living is a risk. Everytime you take a step you're THAT close to snapping the bones of your legs with the pressure. Scientific fact. Life is short and if that teaches you nothing else it teaches you that you can't be TOO safe. To not step out on a limb sometimes will leave you weaker for the chaos principle of life. Being reckless is not good either. You gotta have sense & plan for things. But you can't walk out in a full suit of armor when you go outside everyday.

The best thing when dealing with this matter I believe is knowing yourself first. I think that's a life skill everybody should do. Introspection. Careful deliberate long-running introspection. And just assess what's going on around you which I guess you can call outrospection or extrospection if you wanna get all Latinny about it.

 

And you're right. If you made the right choice you will be living in heaven on earth & will thank the stars, the moons, the four-leaf clovers, AND the purple horseshoes that you took that scary risk. Just make sure you're know what you're doing though. Sometimes you bet on that roulette wheel & you lose your shirt. But when you win you can't get over how fortunate you are.

 

Good luck to you Faux & if you ever decide to walk down that aisle I wish you nothing but the optimum of luck & good fortune. You call your name Faux but you were Real with me here. Thanks for the feedback.

 

To dyermaker: Dyermaker, I think you're right on this. Because that's mostly what I hear out of marriage most of the time. In divorces it's always about what "STUFF" someone gets & someone loses. How can you measure THAT in a relationship between two people. That never made sense to me. The more I see marriage the more I see money into it. Money ITSELF is a man made concept. Anytime I see a religion piping up the importance of money I get a little uneasy. God has NOOOOOOO use for money. What the HELL is he gonna do with some metal chips & sheets of pressed wood? That's not universal. That's not eternal. That's just for us.

 

Gold. Worthless shiny pretty metal. That's all. Diamonds. Glorified rocks. Nothing more. Sure pretty to look at. You can see a rainbow in 'em but it's just a rock. And you can get the same thing out of a everyday prism if you want to. What do I hear from most women looking to get married? "He better give me that ring." "How many karats?" "How big is the diamond?" People equate the level of love with the price of the baubles. That's wrong to me. The lavishness of the wedding ceremony is supposed to show how much the man cares for you. Uh no that's not true. How many people fall into that trap? Mariah Carey anybody? (to name a famous example)

 

All these rituals about each year's gift. Paper this year. Frankincense the next I don't know. Emerald. Amethyst. I don't know.

I tell ya I look at humanity sometimes & all I see is a bunch of overhyped cavemen who do nothing more than gather "pretty rock! ug ug! big shiny! ooh!" The worship of these things astounds me sometimes. How many times do I gotta hear that commercial with that British lady going on & on about the value of gold on Headline News on CNN? Gold's USE was as an easily shapeable metal in eras long past. It's usefulness is limited now. Diamonds are the hardest rocks. For drilling they have use but as anything else it's just for show. To me my computer is more valuable than ANY stone, metal or trifle. It's where I gather information & learn knowledge. And exchange thoughts. Also it's good for escapism, release & freedom.

 

Yes I believe MOST certainly that the marriage institution started in many lands due simply to property AKA the dispersal of material things or STUFF. That whole thing about the bonding of two people just sort of mixed in over the years.

 

Thanks for your feedback dyermaker. You were very useful.

 

To Pookette: Hahahahaha. Yeah. You're right. Hahahaha. Sad to say though as much as we'd like to think that's just the exception to the rule I'd say it's a reflection what goes on a lot in this country. And believe me I didn't get all of my outlook just from those sources. The world gives you PLENTY of examples of the DVD hit: Humans Behaving Badly Vol. 4.

 

How would life be with no problems? Pretty damned good I would imagine. No one likes suffering. It happens & we go through it but no one SEEKS it. Some people go through an INORDINATE amount of pain & I don't think you can convince them that their suffering is a blessing. Tell a starving Rwandan 4-year old & his mother that their starvation & war-torn land is a blessing & will make them stronger. The boy's long-malnourished stomach is bloated with air & his ribs are showing. Flies are around his mouth & the spark in his eye is DEAD. The mother is lost in thought & anguish. The hope in her eyes is DEAD. Not even enough to make tears anymore. Only AFTER the fact if they ever came out of it might they come to that conclusion though I doubt it. They would most likely try to forget about those days in hell. This is EXACTLY why we keep trying to make this world better in the first place. To end all of that crap.

 

Yes going through adversity gives you drive. But everybody doesn't make it no matter how hard they try. Sometimes these poisonous marriages wreck people's lives & livelihoods. They may be living physically but they are dead in another sense. They gave up on some part of life somewhere if not more.

 

And the example you give of the Asian Elvis-married Vegas couple with the pregnant girl & the man struggling working for crumb wages to support the family. Isn't THAT a perfect example of an adversity to come through in order to grow & evolve? The place you are married doesn't matter and the circumstances don't matter. Wouldn't they learn a lesson & evolve into the people they dreamed themselves to be or will they end up living in a realm of life they can't stand yet can't escape?

 

You say if you meet a person special enough you'll eventually want to marry him/her...Mmmmm not necessarily. Case in point: Oprah & Stedman Graham. How long they been together? You might as well say they're married already. But officially by laws of state they're not. That seems to be her man as far as we know so why no rush to marry?

Sometimes marriage RUINS a great relationship due to how people feel they have to change once under "married" status.

 

Now like I said in the original post I'm not so jaded as not to see the good marriages. I pointed out the example of the 80-year old/90-year old couple who got married young at 17, 18, or 19 & been together all those years with the full passion, spark & genuine affection for one another. I know there are couples who stay together for decades still happily married.

 

Yet I also know of couples who stay together for decades in mediocrity. They're just together. More out of habit than desire. More out of fear of dying alone than out of want to be with spouse. See I'm not just looking at the cheating deceitful controlling marriages. I'm ALSO looking at those dead tired marriages that seem to have no purpose. Maybe this couple never did anything of a betraying nature to one another but the union seems to be hollow. And I wonder why would I want something like that just for the sake of being married? What benefits are they getting from this? What really are the itemized benefits? That's what I'm getting at.

 

Listen I don't wish maladies on ANYONE'S union. I LIKE it when people are in love with each other. And I always give good luck & best wishes to anyone trying out a union. I'm proud when people stay together out of genuine affection. It gives me hope for humanity. I hope your marriage goes the same as your parents & grandparents has Pookette. Truly. And I'm happy your family has had good experiences with love. I know they've been an inspiration to you.

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences with me Pookette. I'm grateful. I'm here to learn.

 

[more in part 3]

[CurlyIam]

I have a very strong instinct of property. So, since I'm not that good at convincing people, I don't think I'll convince my future husband to have my name tatooed on him. So, I guess I'll just marry him insted. But if he agrees to the tatoo job, I'm out of this business!!!