I have a dream... (Warning-evil)

[So happy together]

This is why I am perplexed. If neither of you would ever participate in an affair again, there must be some reason for that decision.

 

I suspect it is because neither of you truly feel good about him breaking his marriage vows, (despite the awful circumstances at the time) and should either of you be faced with a similar situation in the future, would make a different decision for your own sake. Because not participating in infidelity would be the right thing to do, and you have learned from the past. Nothing to do with BS's character or any other irrelevant information.

 

Is that wrong?

 

As I've said, he feels guilt over it, I'm not sure guilt is the word for me, because I didn't feel bad at the time. I was more feeling bad for his horrible circumstances. As I've said, we made things right as soon as possible, but I wasn't miserable in the affair. Neither was he. He was happier than he'd been in years. It was kind of hard to feel guilty in that circumstance. I think I would have felt worse if it had been just sex, or we had used one another. You are right, neither of us would embark on an affair again. It's too difficult. I don't know if I would classify an affair as 'right' or 'wrong'. It's really a judgement call for each individual. Think about it... men in other countries have harems. I live in a place where polygamy exists in every day life. They are fine with it and don't feel betrayed. Some would find that repulsive and 'wrong'. I'm not going to judge it. Just like I can't judge a relationship, cheating or not.

[janedoe67]

Absolutely not true. Especially if I was from an affluent family... happened all the time. ALL THE TIME. Nothing has changed as far as affairs go, it's simply that we see it more because we can see what happens around the world in real time.

 

And yes, a perfectly happy person can be brought down by a situation. It happens all the time. Stress, family, kids, etc. All of it. I'm not saying it is an excuse for an affair, I'm simply saying that a happy person can be pulled down.

 

Actually, the winking at adultery was more a pre-Victorian thing.

 

It is also a modern day thing. I think that is what astounds me. I can respect someone who looks at a choice they have made and says "You know, that was wrong." Because even if the choice was wrong, they own it and they are honest about the reality.

 

I never know what to make of people who will wear the color red and say with a straight face that it is green. I don't understand it. It's not as if everyone on the planet hasn't done something wrong from time to time. So why the need to do vocabulary and moral gymnastics to make cheating with or cheating on "right" and perfectly okay?

 

Because just like that bank robber....if somebody gets shot inside the bank, the getaway driver is legally responsible too.

[So happy together]

Actually, the winking at adultery was more a pre-Victorian thing.

 

It is also a modern day thing. I think that is what astounds me. I can respect someone who looks at a choice they have made and says "You know, that was wrong." Because even if the choice was wrong, they own it and they are honest about the reality.

 

I never know what to make of people who will wear the color red and say with a straight face that it is green. I don't understand it. It's not as if everyone on the planet hasn't done something wrong from time to time. So why the need to do vocabulary and moral gymnastics to make cheating with or cheating on "right" and perfectly okay?

 

Because just like that bank robber....if somebody gets shot inside the bank, the getaway driver is legally responsible too.

 

 

Well, you'll be relieved to know I don't judge it as right or wrong.

[HopingAgain]

Well, you'll be relieved to know I don't judge it as right or wrong.

 

But don't you see how that view lets you off the hook for your own behavior? These situations don't just exist in a vacuum, they involve REAL people getting hurt. Any behavior that hurts others willfully is wrong.

 

And the differenceb between infidelity and the polygamy and harems scenarios you pointed out, is that all are willing participants with full knowledge of what's happening in the latter 2. Not the case with infidelity..

[So happy together]

But don't you see how that view lets you off the hook for your own behavior? These situations don't just exist in a vacuum, they involve REAL people getting hurt. Any behavior that hurts others willfully is wrong.

 

And the differenceb between infidelity and the polygamy and harems scenarios you pointed out, is that all are willing participants with full knowledge of what's happening in the latter 2. Not the case with infidelity..

 

But don't YOU see that I don't have to tell YOU that I have guilt, remorse, whatever, in order to be absolved of any guilt I have? If I am on a hook, it will be my own hook, and I don't need to discuss it with you. I've said over and over I would not participate in an affair again. I've said over and over that we have dealt with our part in it. Now I am saying I won't judge others if they choose to embark on an affair because it is not my call. Sorry. it's not your call either.

 

And affairs weren't just pre and post victorian. It happened before, during and after, from the beginning of time. It's no different.

[HopingAgain]

But don't YOU see that I don't have to tell YOU that I have guilt, remorse, whatever, in order to be absolved of any guilt I have? If I am on a hook, it will be my own hook, and I don't need to discuss it with you. I've said over and over I would not participate in an affair again. I've said over and over that we have dealt with our part in it. Now I am saying I won't judge others if they choose to embark on an affair because it is not my call. Sorry. it's not your call either.

 

And affairs weren't just pre and post victorian. It happened before, during and after, from the beginning of time. It's no different.

 

No need to get snippy or defensive. Its your life and yourv call to make, but self examination in these instances is not a bad thing nor one to be feared. You seem to have it all figured out, what do you want to gain from your time and participation here if not feedback?

[So happy together]

No need to get snippy or defensive. Its your life and yourv call to make, but self examination in these instances is not a bad thing nor one to be feared. You seem to have it all figured out, what do you want to gain from your time and participation here if not feedback?

 

I apologize. I didn't realize I sounded snippy. Lol. When I reread, I realized how I sounded. I was just trying to tell you... I've said it often how we have dealt with our part in the A. I won't judge others for their part in theirs.

 

No offense was meant toward you.

[Betterthanthis13]

As I've said, he feels guilt over it, I'm not sure guilt is the word for me, because I didn't feel bad at the time. I was more feeling bad for his horrible circumstances. As I've said, we made things right as soon as possible, but I wasn't miserable in the affair. Neither was he. He was happier than he'd been in years. It was kind of hard to feel guilty in that circumstance. I think I would have felt worse if it had been just sex, or we had used one another. You are right, neither of us would embark on an affair again. It's too difficult. I don't know if I would classify an affair as 'right' or 'wrong'. It's really a judgement call for each individual. Think about it... men in other countries have harems. I live in a place where polygamy exists in every day life. They are fine with it and don't feel betrayed. Some would find that repulsive and 'wrong'. I'm not going to judge it. Just like I can't judge a relationship, cheating or not.

 

I personally take no issue with harems, polygamy, swinging, or any other form of sexual or emotional relationship configurations between consenting human adults, but that's irrelevant.

 

The issue I have with infidelity (the only one) is that the BS is not informed. The BS is deceived.

 

If the BS is a churchgoing cookie-baking saint, or a lunatic alcoholic banshee, I don't really see any difference in the ethics of the decision to cheat and deceive- I see that it might be more chaotic at home and more confusing for WS with the banshee, but the ethical choice to tell a lie rests with him and him alone.

 

If the choice to cheat is ethically variable dependant upon the circumstances, and can be made on a case by case basis by WS, then there really is no point in monogamy since all cheating can be justified by a WS somehow. Isn't that what WS's do?

 

Your bf may have a very, very "convincing" case of justification, but it still falls just short of the line, and I am puzzled why you don't want to see that. It does not make him a bad guy, he just made a choice. No need to justify, explain-- I hope you two are happy, and that is sincere.

 

There's nothing wrong with saying "yes, lying is bad"

 

I've made mistakes & done stupid things- what's the big deal? I wouldn't want to rewrite my moral code into some complicated long explanation to justify some lie I told. I'd make amends, learn from my mistake, dont do it again, share my learning to help others, and be done with it. And then think "yep, lying is bad. Now that I tested it out, I know for sure"- and be ok saying that too.

[canuckprincess]

I have this half baked idea to start a vigilante organization to bust cheaters left and right and just make them miserable. Just for fun. I'm so sick of the Ashley Madison crowd that romanticizes affairs and makes it all seem like no big deal to go around ruining people's mental health, spreading STI's, and breaking up families because they are horny and don't feel like dealing with their problems like grown ups. And it bothers me that the website is making so much money off of sickness and misery.

 

So my idea is to hire a bunch of escorts to sign up for profiles and go on dates. Arm them with iPhones. They can work whenever they feel like getting a free dinner. we are not paying them to have sex with anyone- that is illegal. They get paid per bust. If they can get:

 

-screen shots of the initial contact and communication on AM

-screen shots of the text interaction between themselves and target

-pics of their date (at restaurant, bar, whatever)

-recorded voice proof of them planning to continue the date and have sex at a hotel

-their full name and the city they live in, or enough identifying details

-a pic of their license plate

 

We could have all that info delivered to the spouse before the cheater even realizes his date isn't going to show up at the hotel.

 

Hahahahaha the wife could show up instead.

 

 

Ok I know this is crazy and would never work and is probably dangerous and would get me killed and is wrong for many reasons but I like to think about it.

 

Do you think it will help, how many bs's have dday after dday and stay so why waste your time gathering evidence it won't make a difference.

[janedoe67]

If the BS is a churchgoing cookie-baking saint, or a lunatic alcoholic banshee, I don't really see any difference in the ethics of the decision to cheat and deceive- I see that it might be more chaotic at home and more confusing for WS with the banshee, but the ethical choice to tell a lie rests with him and him alone.

 

If the choice to cheat is ethically variable dependant upon the circumstances, and can be made on a case by case basis by WS, then there really is no point in monogamy since all cheating can be justified by a WS somehow. Isn't that what WS's do?

 

Your bf may have a very, very "convincing" case of justification, but it still falls just short of the line, and I am puzzled why you don't want to see that. It does not make him a bad guy, he just made a choice. No need to justify, explain-- I hope you two are happy, and that is sincere.

 

There's nothing wrong with saying "yes, lying is bad"

 

I've made mistakes & done stupid things- what's the big deal? I wouldn't want to rewrite my moral code into some complicated long explanation to justify some lie I told. I'd make amends, learn from my mistake, dont do it again, share my learning to help others, and be done with it. And then think "yep, lying is bad. Now that I tested it out, I know for sure"- and be ok saying that too.

 

You said what I was thinking but way more eloquently. I admit to believing that there some right and wrong absolutes, that someone else's bad behavior doesn't mitigate my own. I can't relate to complete moral relativism....nor do I want to.

[So happy together]

I personally take no issue with harems, polygamy, swinging, or any other form of sexual or emotional relationship configurations between consenting human adults, but that's irrelevant.

 

The issue I have with infidelity (the only one) is that the BS is not informed. The BS is deceived.

 

If the BS is a churchgoing cookie-baking saint, or a lunatic alcoholic banshee, I don't really see any difference in the ethics of the decision to cheat and deceive- I see that it might be more chaotic at home and more confusing for WS with the banshee, but the ethical choice to tell a lie rests with him and him alone.

 

If the choice to cheat is ethically variable dependant upon the circumstances, and can be made on a case by case basis by WS, then there really is no point in monogamy since all cheating can be justified by a WS somehow. Isn't that what WS's do?

 

Your bf may have a very, very "convincing" case of justification, but it still falls just short of the line, and I am puzzled why you don't want to see that. It does not make him a bad guy, he just made a choice. No need to justify, explain-- I hope you two are happy, and that is sincere.

 

There's nothing wrong with saying "yes, lying is bad"

 

I've made mistakes & done stupid things- what's the big deal? I wouldn't want to rewrite my moral code into some complicated long explanation to justify some lie I told. I'd make amends, learn from my mistake, dont do it again, share my learning to help others, and be done with it. And then think "yep, lying is bad. Now that I tested it out, I know for sure"- and be ok saying that too.

 

Lol. Okay. Yep. Lying is bad. Of course it's bad. But sometimes it's the lesser of two evils.

[Betterthanthis13]

Do you think it will help, how many bs's have dday after dday and stay so why waste your time gathering evidence it won't make a difference.

 

I think my idea was a bad idea because it is predatory, feels icky, and doesn't solve the problem I have in mind.

 

I do think BS's should be informed of what is going on in their life, so they can make their own life decisions based on facts and not lies. It's a waste of time for a BS to be living a lie for the duration of an A. But that's a problem for another day.

 

I really feel it is the duty of the WS to inform the BS, but then there wouldn't be an A in the first place.

 

Ill bet Yoda would know what to do.

[Betterthanthis13]

Lol. Okay. Yep. Lying is bad. Of course it's bad. But sometimes it's the lesser of two evils.

 

Absolutely. There are certainly worse things than lying, or cheating. Everything is relative.

 

I think the problem is that each WS's "lesser of two evils" dilemma somehow seems to find that justification for the lying- so where do we draw the line? And who draws it?

 

I think that's where we go back to the "case by case basis" discussion...

 

But logic dictates that unless outside criteria is established for when the justification can be made that lying (cheating) is the lesser of the two evils, it is left up to the discretion of the WS every time, and therefore cheating is always justifiable.

 

That's why BS's get so upset. It might sound like semantics and being nitpicky about complicated things with tons of gray area, but in reality unless we can all agree on this one little logic dilemma there is no monogamy.

[So happy together]

Absolutely. There are certainly worse things than lying, or cheating. Everything is relative.

 

I think the problem is that each WS's "lesser of two evils" dilemma somehow seems to find that justification for the lying- so where do we draw the line? And who draws it?

 

I think that's where we go back to the "case by case basis" discussion...

 

But logic dictates that unless outside criteria is established for when the justification can be made that lying (cheating) is the lesser of the two evils, it is left up to the discretion of the WS every time, and therefore cheating is always justifiable.

 

That's why BS's get so upset. It might sound like semantics and being nitpicky about complicated things with tons of gray area, but in reality unless we can all agree on this one little logic dilemma there is no monogamy.

 

Yes, I can definitely see why you would feel this way. The WS, if they choose, could justify it. My boyfriend was riddled with guilt, in fact the therapy was more for that and to figure out why he felt the need to cheat, what he wanted in his life, etc. than it was to justify or repair anything. He takes responsibility for his part in the disintegration of the marriage, as he became complacent after a while because it was just too hard. He suffered a lot.

 

Even his spiritual advisor said he should divorce, so I think that assuaged some of his guilt. But, he did struggle. I know this sounds weird but the fact that he was torn means a lot to me. It means that he could have just ended it with me, but didn't. It means that he cared enough about her, even in a friendly way, to stay long enough to prepare financially so that she would be stable.

 

As I said... I wouldn't do it again. I know it hurts people sometimes. I'm glad it's over, I'm glad we are in an open relationship now. It means a lot.

[janedoe67]

I will say that I do have some respect for your bf. Yes, he knowingly chose to hurt another person. But he CARES that he chose to hurt another person. He has grieved over it rather than thinking about how the betrayal hurt his wife (no matter how messed up she was) and then going "meh (shrug)."

 

That means he has a conscience. And that is a very good thing.

[So happy together]

I will say that I do have some respect for your bf. Yes, he knowingly chose to hurt another person. But he CARES that he chose to hurt another person. He has grieved over it rather than thinking about how the betrayal hurt his wife (no matter how messed up she was) and then going "meh (shrug)."

 

That means he has a conscience. And that is a very good thing.

 

 

That is much appreciated. He really is a wonderful man.

[Journee]

I don't disagree with the fact that some stay with their WS because they are in love. I just have to question how in love the WS was when he/she cheated.

 

It is clear that when there is infidelity the marriage is broken, whether before, or because of it. If a couple can happily reconcile I think it is a wonderful thing. I believe in love.

 

But I do know that in my situation, if my boyfriend had stayed it would have been out of simple obligation. And the only reason his stbxw would have stayed it would have been for monetary reasons and the embarrassment of having to divorce.

 

Don't you realize that I'm not cheering for the OW in your relationship? Far from it. If you choose to work it out, I think it is truly wonderful and shows that you both want to make it work.

 

If you think for one second that I want your relationship to fail you are wrong. I don't. I believe in happiness. And I believe in love. And forgiveness. I know it sounds like I am assigning blame. I'm not. I'm simply showing the other side of the equation. You won't hear it, and that could very well be to your detriment.

 

I wish you well.

 

 

I cannot comment as someone that was not in a bad way. My relationship with my H at the time did not resemble a marriage at all. We were separated and constantly on two different wave lengths. I have had to swallow a fair amount of pride and shame realizing my role in all of this. How my actions (though I justified them in my crazy head because I resented some happenings in our R before hand) contributed to my H's pain. He was broken and felt abandoned by me. I would not budge an inch in letting him back into my heart. I thought I was being strong. I was being a coward and I was being cruel. Even with some of the things that took place that don't exactly paint my H in the best light over the course of our being together, I regret my handling of the situation. I took my love away because I was hurt by our interactions taking a dark turn and H not giving a darn (I felt).

 

Looking back....I feel more anger towards myself and I struggle with the guilt I feel. I know I did not force H to do anything. Especially considering my situation at the time of his meeting OW. I am not excusing it...but I understand it. It was wrong of us all in my situation. My H used OW for the attention that I was not giving. Just to have someone to ask how his day is going. To chase after him a bit. I had finally started to come around but he was afraid it was just my hormones from pregnancy having my feel sentimental and that I would turn on him at the drop of a hat. It was wrong of me to starve the one person I swore to love because of my resentments. Because of my fear. Wanting him to do things on my terms. Being a selfish cow. Doubting his love for me despite his actions. Yeah, I left for a good reason....I stayed gone for all the wrong ones. OW, she was going through her own situation with her H. She was drinking heavily and dating several men to medicate her own pain. They used each other for attention. For something to focus on for a moment.

 

Gah, what a mess. I know for me and mine...the M was broken beyond repair some might say. Maybe it still is. I'm working on me though. That's all I can do. H is working on him and together I hope we get it right this time. I let a lot of FOO issues come into my marriage and invade my mind. Issues with my birth mother made me a colder and more cynical person. That's not me. That's not who my H married.

 

Rambling now. Just had to get it off my chest and SHT's comment opened my wound.

[Betterthanthis13]

If you look at a persons life like a book- they are the author

 

The title of the book is what you want in life, most people want to be happy- and have things like a partner who loves them, family, friends, career, etc. this can be revised as life changes

 

The chapter titles are the main events-once a chapter is written, it's in the book and it stays there, but you are always writing new chapters

 

And the words are all the things you do day to day

 

If you use critical thinking skills, analysis, and ethics to define your title and chapter titles before you write the words, you have a much better shot at writing a story that alligns with the title of your book

 

Friends, therapists can help us see why the words we are writing in the book aren't matching up with the title- why are we writing a tragedy when we want a happy ending?

 

What I see in society today, especially in the younger generation ,are many many people without clearly defined titles, writing chapters that have very little chance of making them happy in the long run, and utilizing minimal critical thinking skills or analysis- basically carrying around a copy of People Magazine or US Weekly as their life book, hurting themselves and other people, learning the

Ways of Life from the media- where all the content is garbage

 

Infidelity is just one of the problems in this mess, but it's the one that is important to me right now and that was the original purpose of this thread-

 

I know some people will always cheat. People will always make mistakes. Also, there are sociopaths to contend with. Aside from those considerations, I think that a massive improvement can be made and a lot of suffering can be prevented if we find a way to get people to use critical thinking and analysis to apply their own personal ethics (not impose morality upon them) during the formative early adult years, when they are all just "watching tv" and starting life.

 

I do have hope that there is a way a lot of the pain and suffering caused by infidelity can be prevented. I don't know what the solution is but just this thread has taught me so far:

 

-A key concept we should be encouraging people to analyze prior to getting married is the logic puzzle we have been debating on the past few pages

-after the fact is too late- there are tons of resources for how to heal after infidelity and plenty of support already

-fighting fire with fire just creates more fire- no sensational show or website outing cheaters is an effective deterrent, neither is any punishment

 

I think the BEST people to talk about this type of stuff are right here on this forum. They aren't in Washington DC making policy, they aren't in a college class discussing Mass Media, they aren't therapists writing books. They are the people who's lives have been forever changed by infidelity and have learned from it- all of us- WS, AP, BS. It's difficult to think about bigger things when we are experiencing personal pain, and even harder to see others points of view from our perspective in the triangle- but I truly believe that most people just want to be happy. We are all works in progress.

 

 

“Most people gaze neither into the past nor the future; they explore neither truth nor lies. They gaze at the television.”

― Radiohead

 

"As soon as healing takes place, go out and heal somebody else."

— Maya Angelou

 

"I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better."

— Maya Angelou

 

“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”

― Martin Luther King Jr.

 

“Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.”

― Adolf Hitler

[So happy together]

If you look at a persons life like a book- they are the author

 

The title of the book is what you want in life, most people want to be happy- and have things like a partner who loves them, family, friends, career, etc. this can be revised as life changes

 

The chapter titles are the main events-once a chapter is written, it's in the book and it stays there, but you are always writing new chapters

 

And the words are all the things you do day to day

 

If you use critical thinking skills, analysis, and ethics to define your title and chapter titles before you write the words, you have a much better shot at writing a story that alligns with the title of your book

 

Friends, therapists can help us see why the words we are writing in the book aren't matching up with the title- why are we writing a tragedy when we want a happy ending?

 

What I see in society today, especially in the younger generation ,are many many people without clearly defined titles, writing chapters that have very little chance of making them happy in the long run, and utilizing minimal critical thinking skills or analysis- basically carrying around a copy of People Magazine or US Weekly as their life book, hurting themselves and other people, learning the

Ways of Life from the media- where all the content is garbage

 

Infidelity is just one of the problems in this mess, but it's the one that is important to me right now and that was the original purpose of this thread-

 

I know some people will always cheat. People will always make mistakes. Also, there are sociopaths to contend with. Aside from those considerations, I think that a massive improvement can be made and a lot of suffering can be prevented if we find a way to get people to use critical thinking and analysis to apply their own personal ethics (not impose morality upon them) during the formative early adult years, when they are all just "watching tv" and starting life.

 

I do have hope that there is a way a lot of the pain and suffering caused by infidelity can be prevented. I don't know what the solution is but just this thread has taught me so far:

 

-A key concept we should be encouraging people to analyze prior to getting married is the logic puzzle we have been debating on the past few pages

-after the fact is too late- there are tons of resources for how to heal after infidelity and plenty of support already

-fighting fire with fire just creates more fire- no sensational show or website outing cheaters is an effective deterrent, neither is any punishment

 

I think the BEST people to talk about this type of stuff are right here on this forum. They aren't in Washington DC making policy, they aren't in a college class discussing Mass Media, they aren't therapists writing books. They are the people who's lives have been forever changed by infidelity and have learned from it- all of us- WS, AP, BS. It's difficult to think about bigger things when we are experiencing personal pain, and even harder to see others points of view from our perspective in the triangle- but I truly believe that most people just want to be happy. We are all works in progress.

 

 

“Most people gaze neither into the past nor the future; they explore neither truth nor lies. They gaze at the television.”

― Radiohead

 

"As soon as healing takes place, go out and heal somebody else."

— Maya Angelou

 

"I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better."

— Maya Angelou

 

“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”

― Martin Luther King Jr.

 

“Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.”

― Adolf Hitler

 

Journee, I PM'd you.

 

Better: This was a fantastic post. I especially loved the quote by Maya. Things tend to go off the rails when I post. I'll try to be better about the T/J's.

 

xx

[Betterthanthis13]

Journee, I PM'd you.

 

Better: This was a fantastic post. I especially loved the quote by Maya. Things tend to go off the rails when I post. I'll try to be better about the T/J's.

 

xx

 

The T/j's are what gives us examples to learn from! Plus I have ADD tendencies so I enjoy multiple simultaneous conversations