I have a dream... (Warning-evil)

[Thegameoflife]

I rarely watch any tv either. I shut off cable years ago, and actively avoid most commercial media content. That doesn't negate its existance. I think what I've been doing is ignoring the problem. The problem came and found me anyway.

 

Holding your breath and not saying anything about something you dont like is a good way to not get good results. It's like not voting and then complaining about the government.

 

Wishing for the "good old days" of tv and media is a waste of time. Forward progress can be positive or negative, it's up to all of us to influence it. Where we are right now is alarming to me, I don't particularly like it- I don't think doing nothing is the right answer, even though I don't know exactly what can possibly help at this point. Just throwing out random ideas.

 

What is the value of fidelity in a marriage?

[Betterthanthis13]

You know, the problem with this is there are so many abused people who stay out of choice. We can't really make them leave. Of course if they are children that is one thing, but in an abusive marriage, they make their own decision. It's a tough call. And you are absolutely correct, it definitely does make privacy tricky.

 

Well, I don't know if you enjoy quotes... But I am very pleased with myself for locating this one which summarizes how I feel about this particular tricky topic- finding a balance between infringing on an individual's right to privacy, and utilizing the power of society to benefit and protect the individual from abuse while respecting freedom of choice.

 

“Power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice, and justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love.”

― Martin Luther King Jr.

 

There is no instant utopia or quick fix. I am fully aware of this fact.

 

You, as a self professed exception to the "rules" of infidelity being "always bad" and since your relationship is a "success story" after an affair (please please forgive me if I am paraphrasing wrong, I am only going by what limited information I have read on LS) are of particular interest to me. I am very curious what your opinion is on some things.

[So happy together]

Well, I don't know if you enjoy quotes... But I am very pleased with myself for locating this one which summarizes how I feel about this particular tricky topic- finding a balance between infringing on an individual's right to privacy, and utilizing the power of society to benefit and protect the individual from abuse while respecting freedom of choice.

 

“Power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice, and justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love.”

― Martin Luther King Jr.

 

There is no instant utopia or quick fix. I am fully aware of this fact.

 

You, as a self professed exception to the "rules" of infidelity being "always bad" and since your relationship is a "success story" after an affair (please please forgive me if I am paraphrasing wrong, I am only going by what limited information I have read on LS) are of particular interest to me. I am very curious what your opinion is on some things.

 

Great quote! You can ask me what you like. I'll be as honest as I can.

[Betterthanthis13]

What is the value of fidelity in a marriage?

 

The value of something is the importance, or "preciousness" of that thing. It is a perception. It is not tangible. In a marriage, it is a shared perception. It is up to the two people involved in the marriage to define its value and agree on it.

 

That's why communication is so important. The value can ebb and flow in the mind of either marriage participant, and since they made a commitment to journey through life together, they have an obligation to keep their partner updated on the status of their side of the fidelity agreement and what the value of it means to them if there have been any changes.

 

To some couples, fidelity/monogamy, is very extreme in both a physical and emotional definition. Couple A might have married as virgins and define monogamy as no same sex friends and no physical contact with the opposite sex aside from hugs with family members. For other couples, it is defined very loosely Couple B might have same sex friends, maybe even do some swinging together and have friendships with ex's. Couple A and couple B both are monogamous because all parties are comfortable with their agreements and aren't breaking or bending the rules.

 

The value of fidelity in marriage is trust. The intimacy that an be built in a marriage where the partners share an emotional bond and exclusive sexual bond (in their definition) is unlike any other you can experience with any other relationship. When the fidelity is carelessly and selfishly tossed aside by one person, it renders any and all other "relationship problems" as null and void. It's simply the worst betrayal I can imagine. I don't understand how cheaters can be so hardened and clueless.

[So happy together]

The value of something is the importance, or "preciousness" of that thing. It is a perception. It is not tangible. In a marriage, it is a shared perception. It is up to the two people involved in the marriage to define its value and agree on it.

 

That's why communication is so important. The value can ebb and flow in the mind of either marriage participant, and since they made a commitment to journey through life together, they have an obligation to keep their partner updated on the status of their side of the fidelity agreement and what the value of it means to them if there have been any changes.

 

To some couples, fidelity/monogamy, is very extreme in both a physical and emotional definition. Couple A might have married as virgins and define monogamy as no same sex friends and no physical contact with the opposite sex aside from hugs with family members. For other couples, it is defined very loosely Couple B might have same sex friends, maybe even do some swinging together and have friendships with ex's. Couple A and couple B both are monogamous because all parties are comfortable with their agreements and aren't breaking or bending the rules.

 

The value of fidelity in marriage is trust. The intimacy that an be built in a marriage where the partners share an emotional bond and exclusive sexual bond (in their definition) is unlike any other you can experience with any other relationship. When the fidelity is carelessly and selfishly tossed aside by one person, it renders any and all other "relationship problems" as null and void. It's simply the worst betrayal I can imagine. I don't understand how cheaters can be so hardened and clueless.

 

I have to quietly disagree with this. My bf was neither of those. I think there are a lot of situations where the cheater has just had enough of whatever is making them unhappy. I'm not saying cheating is the way to fix it, but I definitely don't think all cheaters are hardened and clueless. I know some certainly are. But not all. My bf had guilt. He felt torn... not whether or not to stay, but whether we should put our R aside until he'd left. In the end we decided not to take that route simply because we couldn't bear the thought of being away one from the other.

 

Also, I'd like to say that at times, in some R's it's the BS who is hardened and clueless. In our situation, there was no emotion, no caring, no companionship, even as friends. My bf was incredibly lonely and trying to discuss this with her, for years, was a losing battle.

 

It definitely goes both ways.

[janedoe67]

I can't say how, but let's just say I do know this for a fact. HOWEVER, I think only obsessively bitter and deranged outliers do such a thing, and that they are very few and far between.

[Betterthanthis13]

I have to quietly disagree with this. My bf was neither of those. I think there are a lot of situations where the cheater has just had enough of whatever is making them unhappy. I'm not saying cheating is the way to fix it, but I definitely don't think all cheaters are hardened and clueless. I know some certainly are. But not all. My bf had guilt. He felt torn... not whether or not to stay, but whether we should put our R aside until he'd left. In the end we decided not to take that route simply because we couldn't bear the thought of being away one from the other.

 

Also, I'd like to say that at times, in some R's it's the BS who is hardened and clueless. In our situation, there was no emotion, no caring, no companionship, even as friends. My bf was incredibly lonely and trying to discuss this with her, for years, was a losing battle.

 

It definitely goes both ways.

 

That's why I find your story so interesting.

 

I bolded the part that I think is important. I'm in no way pointing a finger at your boyfriend accusing him of being a cruel, cold, heartless man. From all your accounts he sounds like a kind, thoughtful man who was stuck in one hell of a bad marriage in an impossibly difficult situation trying to do the best he could. He was probably lonely, and confused. I do not think he is a bad person. I think he was sad for a long time and just like any other human being, wanted to be happy. Wanted the right thing for his child.

 

That being said, where does the line get drawn between the individuals right to pursue happiness at the expense of another when they have a prior marriage commitment? Who gets to make the judgement if the affair is "justified"? The WS? The AP? What are the criteria for determining if an affair is a viable option?

 

Dan Savage has some writing on this topic. He has some convincing arguments for when a spouse is in a coma and things like that.

 

Otherwise, just like not being the morality police of others marriages, it's not our right to impose judgement on our spouse, the one we took a vow to protect- the choice of ignoring this vow in the interest of one's own happiness is by definition a selfish action. In times of trouble, anxiety, depression, fear- that might not be clear to the person making the choice- but it doesn't negate the fact that the action was selfish, and cruel. Two wrongs never add up to a right.

 

A single selfish or cruel action does not make someone a selfish, cruel person.

 

I do wonder about a person who defends that single selfish, cruel action as justifiable and recommends it to others.

 

i have great respect for a person who examines their flawed logic and can admit that yes, I did something when my back was up against the wall that I regret. I got the result I wanted, but the ends dont justify the means and its POSSIBLE i could have become equally as happy now using ethical means. I have learned from that action. I'd like to help others who are in a similar situation find a better way out of it, instead of endorsing my prior unethical actions as a "good example" for others.

 

If I am so depressed i am suicidial and try to shoot myself in the head but somehow just graze myself and hit the wall, live, and discover buried treasure in the wall where the hole is and become rich and this makes me want to live- does not mean I should recommend to people trying to shoot yourself in the head as a possible not so bad thing all the time.

[HopingAgain]

That's why I find your story so interesting.

 

I bolded the part that I think is important. I'm in no way pointing a finger at your boyfriend accusing him of being a cruel, cold, heartless man. From all your accounts he sounds like a kind, thoughtful man who was stuck in one hell of a bad marriage in an impossibly difficult situation trying to do the best he could. He was probably lonely, and confused. I do not think he is a bad person. I think he was sad for a long time and just like any other human being, wanted to be happy. Wanted the right thing for his child.

 

That being said, where does the line get drawn between the individuals right to pursue happiness at the expense of another when they have a prior marriage commitment? Who gets to make the judgement if the affair is "justified"? The WS? The AP? What are the criteria for determining if an affair is a viable option?

 

Dan Savage has some writing on this topic. He has some convincing arguments for when a spouse is in a coma and things like that.

 

Otherwise, just like not being the morality police of others marriages, it's not our right to impose judgement on our spouse, the one we took a vow to protect- the choice of ignoring this vow in the interest of one's own happiness is by definition a selfish action. In times of trouble, anxiety, depression, fear- that might not be clear to the person making the choice- but it doesn't negate the fact that the action was selfish, and cruel. Two wrongs never add up to a right.

 

A single selfish or cruel action does not make someone a selfish, cruel person.

 

I do wonder about a person who defends that single selfish, cruel action as justifiable and recommends it to others.

 

i have great respect for a person who examines their flawed logic and can admit that yes, I did something when my back was up against the wall that I regret. I got the result I wanted, but the ends dont justify the means and its POSSIBLE i could have become equally as happy now using ethical means. I have learned from that action. I'd like to help others who are in a similar situation find a better way out of it, instead of endorsing my prior unethical actions as a "good example" for others.

 

If I am so depressed i am suicidial and try to shoot myself in the head but somehow just graze myself and hit the wall, live, and discover buried treasure in the wall where the hole is and become rich and this makes me want to live- does not mean I should recommend to people trying to shoot yourself in the head as a possible not so bad thing all the time.

 

I really like this post" and your analogies.

 

What I have found is that APs and WSs who are "pro affair", often paint themselves into a corner once they start to transition from an affair to a regular relationship. It is very doubtful that they would be as liberal with the insertion of infidelity and lies within the context of their own relationship. Yet they were all for an affair when it included them getting what they wanted. This is a mental clash of values that doesn't resolve itself quickly or easily. Either you are ok with affairs and infidelity, or you're not. There is no" I'm ok with it and will participate in it as long as it doesn't affect me. This is a big reason why many affairs that later transition to regular relationships don't workn

[MissBee]

“Power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice, and justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love.”

― Martin Luther King Jr.

 

.

 

LOOOVE that quote, especially the bold, as it relates to affairs. So often it's just sentimental and anemic and filled with wishes and if-onlys, and I can't, and if I coulds, but very little real power which impacts real change. Hence, the term fantasy, which people seem to hate...but fantasy is exactly that anemic, sentimental, totally feeling-based, action-lacking love.

[So happy together]

That's why I find your story so interesting.

 

I bolded the part that I think is important. I'm in no way pointing a finger at your boyfriend accusing him of being a cruel, cold, heartless man. From all your accounts he sounds like a kind, thoughtful man who was stuck in one hell of a bad marriage in an impossibly difficult situation trying to do the best he could. He was probably lonely, and confused. I do not think he is a bad person. I think he was sad for a long time and just like any other human being, wanted to be happy. Wanted the right thing for his child.

 

That being said, where does the line get drawn between the individuals right to pursue happiness at the expense of another when they have a prior marriage commitment? Who gets to make the judgement if the affair is "justified"? The WS? The AP? What are the criteria for determining if an affair is a viable option?

 

Dan Savage has some writing on this topic. He has some convincing arguments for when a spouse is in a coma and things like that.

 

Otherwise, just like not being the morality police of others marriages, it's not our right to impose judgement on our spouse, the one we took a vow to protect- the choice of ignoring this vow in the interest of one's own happiness is by definition a selfish action. In times of trouble, anxiety, depression, fear- that might not be clear to the person making the choice- but it doesn't negate the fact that the action was selfish, and cruel. Two wrongs never add up to a right.

 

A single selfish or cruel action does not make someone a selfish, cruel person.

 

I do wonder about a person who defends that single selfish, cruel action as justifiable and recommends it to others.

 

i have great respect for a person who examines their flawed logic and can admit that yes, I did something when my back was up against the wall that I regret. I got the result I wanted, but the ends dont justify the means and its POSSIBLE i could have become equally as happy now using ethical means. I have learned from that action. I'd like to help others who are in a similar situation find a better way out of it, instead of endorsing my prior unethical actions as a "good example" for others.

 

If I am so depressed i am suicidial and try to shoot myself in the head but somehow just graze myself and hit the wall, live, and discover buried treasure in the wall where the hole is and become rich and this makes me want to live- does not mean I should recommend to people trying to shoot yourself in the head as a possible not so bad thing all the time.

 

My bf and I have talked about this a lot. Neither of us would do this again. It's not been easy. As far as who gets to say an A is justified... I think that each person involved BS/WS/OW/OM have their say in how they feel. Each will see it differently and there may never be a final consensus that is agreed by all. I think each has the right to their feelings on the subject. My problem comes when I talk about my situation and others that are not involved feel they have the right to judge me when they don't know anything about my situation.

 

The analogy with the gun is a good one. I understand it. I would never tell someone "HEY! If you're bored, lonely, unhappy, run out and have an affair! It was a GREAT experience!" That being said... my situation has worked out well for my bf and me. It worked, in my opinion, because it wasn't just a band aid for the scrapes and sores in his marriage. We loved one another and the entire time the plan was for him to leave and for us to have an exclusive relationship. Probably I'm not the best person to even answer this because my affair isn't like most. But when someone is in the middle of an affair and they are in pain, I'll support them if they need it because they are already in the affair. And there is a reason that they are. Someone was unhappy (in most cases). And when an OW/OM falls in love with their MM/MW, then they, and only they, can decide what happens next. I realize this takes the power from the BS, but it really is true. If MM plans to leave, BS can't do anything about it. If MM plans to stay, that is where the BS has power to make decisions on whether they want to stay in the relationship.

 

My bf stayed in the marriage for longer than he wanted because he was trying to put things in place not only for us but for BS. She's well off because of the plans he put in place for her. If he'd just left at the beginning he would have not had the opportunity otherwise because she wouldn't have allowed it. I'm not making excuses for him, or the affair. I'm just saying that was part of it. Not to mention that he had to get things in place for himself. Paying for two households during a divorce is no easy task.

 

I've said it before... if we could do it again would we wait to begin dating until after he'd left? Probably. But we can't fix that now, it's too late. So, we're doing all we can to make things as right as we can after the horse has left the barn. It has been work. And do you know what? It was good work. We have learned a lot about ourselves through the process. He likes who he is now rather than feeling like a failure because that is how he felt when he was married. He felt unlovable. And we've realized that after it all, we still really, really like one another. We're good friends and great lovers. I love him more and more every second. And it's reciprocated.

 

I will also say that when we began dating, his life was very, very dark. his spirit had withered to nothing and he was a lonely man. I'm glad I was part of sparking it again, of bringing him happiness. Helping find the person he used to be. He is so much healthier now.

 

And the BS? She has never once told him that she misses him, that she loves him, that she wants him to come home because they are meant to be together. She has said things like "We'll go broke if we divorce" "How will I support myself" "I will have less money" "People will talk about me" "You are making a fool of me to our friends". Don't worry about the fact that they don't have any friends and she never leaves the house. And she is still drinking like a fish. He finally changed his phone number after months of texts like this. Before he changed his number he would never answer her texts after five p.m. because they were always drunken rambling selfish things. When she would text after five she would say things like "I'm not drunk" because she knew that he knew she was and didn't want to admit it. I will tell you something... if I wanted to win back my husband, it wouldn't be by complaining and whining. I'd make myself desirable in every way. I'd let him know I loved him but that I had a life. I'd go out and I'd have fun. I'd make sure he knew I was a fun person with something to give. I'd make him want a life with me. All she did was make it worse because her wanting of him had nothing to do with a relationship and everything to do with what the neighbor's would say or how she would be able to afford a fifth of vodka every single solitary day.

 

I'm sorry, I'm rambling. But this is how it felt to us. This is why, while I wish it had happened differently, I wouldn't change it now because we are really happy. HE is happy. And I'm glad for that. And I know the only person that can fix the BS is HER. I hope she does some day.

[Betterthanthis13]

My bf and I have talked about this a lot. Neither of us would do this again. It's not been easy. As far as who gets to say an A is justified... I think that each person involved BS/WS/OW/OM have their say in how they feel. Each will see it differently and there may never be a final consensus that is agreed by all. I think each has the right to their feelings on the subject. My problem comes when I talk about my situation and others that are not involved feel they have the right to judge me when they don't know anything about my situation.

 

The analogy with the gun is a good one. I understand it. I would never tell someone "HEY! If you're bored, lonely, unhappy, run out and have an affair! It was a GREAT experience!" That being said... my situation has worked out well for my bf and me. It worked, in my opinion, because it wasn't just a band aid for the scrapes and sores in his marriage. We loved one another and the entire time the plan was for him to leave and for us to have an exclusive relationship. Probably I'm not the best person to even answer this because my affair isn't like most. But when someone is in the middle of an affair and they are in pain, I'll support them if they need it because they are already in the affair. And there is a reason that they are. Someone was unhappy (in most cases). And when an OW/OM falls in love with their MM/MW, then they, and only they, can decide what happens next. I realize this takes the power from the BS, but it really is true. If MM plans to leave, BS can't do anything about it. If MM plans to stay, that is where the BS has power to make decisions on whether they want to stay in the relationship.

 

My bf stayed in the marriage for longer than he wanted because he was trying to put things in place not only for us but for BS. She's well off because of the plans he put in place for her. If he'd just left at the beginning he would have not had the opportunity otherwise because she wouldn't have allowed it. I'm not making excuses for him, or the affair. I'm just saying that was part of it. Not to mention that he had to get things in place for himself. Paying for two households during a divorce is no easy task.

 

I've said it before... if we could do it again would we wait to begin dating until after he'd left? Probably. But we can't fix that now, it's too late. So, we're doing all we can to make things as right as we can after the horse has left the barn. It has been work. And do you know what? It was good work. We have learned a lot about ourselves through the process. He likes who he is now rather than feeling like a failure because that is how he felt when he was married. He felt unlovable. And we've realized that after it all, we still really, really like one another. We're good friends and great lovers. I love him more and more every second. And it's reciprocated.

 

I will also say that when we began dating, his life was very, very dark. his spirit had withered to nothing and he was a lonely man. I'm glad I was part of sparking it again, of bringing him happiness. Helping find the person he used to be. He is so much healthier now.

 

And the BS? She has never once told him that she misses him, that she loves him, that she wants him to come home because they are meant to be together. She has said things like "We'll go broke if we divorce" "How will I support myself" "I will have less money" "People will talk about me" "You are making a fool of me to our friends". Don't worry about the fact that they don't have any friends and she never leaves the house. And she is still drinking like a fish. He finally changed his phone number after months of texts like this. Before he changed his number he would never answer her texts after five p.m. because they were always drunken rambling selfish things. When she would text after five she would say things like "I'm not drunk" because she knew that he knew she was and didn't want to admit it. I will tell you something... if I wanted to win back my husband, it wouldn't be by complaining and whining. I'd make myself desirable in every way. I'd let him know I loved him but that I had a life. I'd go out and I'd have fun. I'd make sure he knew I was a fun person with something to give. I'd make him want a life with me. All she did was make it worse because her wanting of him had nothing to do with a relationship and everything to do with what the neighbor's would say or how she would be able to afford a fifth of vodka every single solitary day.

 

I'm sorry, I'm rambling. But this is how it felt to us. This is why, while I wish it had happened differently, I wouldn't change it now because we are really happy. HE is happy. And I'm glad for that. And I know the only person that can fix the BS is HER. I hope she does some day.

 

Great ramble!

 

Actually, I think someone in your position, or your bf's, is the best person to have a discussion with on this topic. It's fairly easy to get most people who were burned by infidelity in one way or another to agree that cheating is wrong, when the issues are more clear cut, when there is a "villain" WS and a "victim" BS- I think someone in your position has the potential to not only be compassionate and helpful to people in active affairs, but could possibly provide valuable insight and perspective to this whole debacle that is being overlooked because we are all so busy pointing fingers (and coming up with silly schemes to take down the Ashley Madison website and reprogram tv)

[Betterthanthis13]

LOOOVE that quote, especially the bold, as it relates to affairs. So often it's just sentimental and anemic and filled with wishes and if-onlys, and I can't, and if I coulds, but very little real power which impacts real change. Hence, the term fantasy, which people seem to hate...but fantasy is exactly that anemic, sentimental, totally feeling-based, action-lacking love.

 

MLK all the way... yet another use for his quote. I hope he is not upset wherever he is that we are borrowing his work to talk about matters of the heart! I think he would be ok with it, because he ALSO said....

 

“If I cannot do great things, I can do small things in a great way”

― Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Ok. I think I want to make a quote thread. I really like inspirational quotes today.

[Furious]

I really like this post" and your analogies.

 

What I have found is that APs and WSs who are "pro affair", often paint themselves into a corner once they start to transition from an affair to a regular relationship. It is very doubtful that they would be as liberal with the insertion of infidelity and lies within the context of their own relationship. Yet they were all for an affair when it included them getting what they wanted. This is a mental clash of values that doesn't resolve itself quickly or easily. Either you are ok with affairs and infidelity, or you're not. There is no" I'm ok with it and will participate in it as long as it doesn't affect me. This is a big reason why many affairs that later transition to regular relationships don't workn

 

 

Brilliant observation HopingAgain!!!

 

I agree that those who are pro-affair change their tune when it applies to the transition from affair partners to committed partners. It's as if they excuse their own behaviour as a justified anomaly.

 

It seems that they justify the reason to cheat or be an accessory to cheating somehow no longer applies when their relationship is now legit.

 

I doubt a former OW/OM would high five their WS or the affair partner if they found themselves on the receiving end of infidelity. I doubt they would absorb the fault as entirely theirs for their WS stepping out on them as many unrepentant OW/OM seem to lay the blame at the betrayed spouse in their situation.

 

It's an astounding disconnect and completely self serving.

[So happy together]

Brilliant observation HopingAgain!!!

 

I agree that those who are pro-affair change their tune when it applies to the transition from affair partners to committed partners. It's as if they excuse their own behaviour as a justified anomaly.

 

It seems that they justify the reason to cheat or be an accessory to cheating somehow no longer applies when their relationship is now legit.

 

I doubt a former OW/OM would high five their WS or the affair partner if they found themselves on the receiving end of infidelity. I doubt they would absorb the fault as entirely theirs for their WS stepping out on them as many unrepentant OW/OM seem to lay the blame at the betrayed spouse in their situation.

 

It's an astounding disconnect and completely self serving.

 

This makes no sense. If they were pro affair, why excuse anything at all?

I am not pro affair, so I guess I couldn't comment.

[Confused48]

This makes no sense. If they were pro affair, why excuse anything at all?

I am not pro affair, so I guess I couldn't comment.

 

So you are an unrepentant OW but you are not pro affair? What then, do you loath yourself? Do you find you behavior repugnant?

[So happy together]

So you are an unrepentant OW but you are not pro affair? What then, do you loath yourself? Do you find you behavior repugnant?

 

Nope. I'm not pro or anti affair. I don't have an opinion. Each case, each couple, each person is different. Why would I loath myself? Loath means unwilling...

 

Oh, you mean loathe... as in feel disgust. Um. No. And I don't find my behavior repugnant. I believe in happiness and love. We've created a beautiful situation for ourselves. I'm quite happy.

Edited July 20, 2013 by So happy together
capitalized a word.

[Furious]

This makes no sense. If they were pro affair, why excuse anything at all?

I am not pro affair, so I guess I couldn't comment.

 

 

Actually, you're the one who makes no sense. It's quite hypocritical to claim being anti-affair while being involved with a married man.

[So happy together]

Actually, you're the one who makes no sense. It's quite hypocritical to claim being anti-affair while being involved with a married man.

 

If you would read. I said I was neither pro nor anti affair. I'm not involved with a MM. So there's that. We are just fine, thanks. I think if you can make your relationship happy, whatever the circumstances, that's fabulous. I wish you well.

[Furious]

If you would read. I said I was neither pro nor anti affair. I'm not involved with a MM. So there's that. We are just fine, thanks. I think if you can make your relationship happy, whatever the circumstances, that's fabulous. I wish you well.

 

Is his divorce final...than if so correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

I also wish you well and you're in my prayers.

[So happy together]

Is his divorce final...than if so correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

I also wish you well and you're in my prayers.

 

 

Almost. Not quite. But he is no longer married. Especially in the emotional sense of the word.

[Furious]

Almost. Not quite. But he is no longer married. Especially in the emotional sense of the word.

 

Not quite? I'm sorry but this makes no sense but as long as it makes sense to you SHT that's all that matters in end.

 

Peace

[Betterthanthis13]

If you would read. I said I was neither pro nor anti affair. I'm not involved with a MM. So there's that. We are just fine, thanks. I think if you can make your relationship happy, whatever the circumstances, that's fabulous. I wish you well.

 

I have never heard of that opinion about affairs till now, neither for nor against? So you would consider infidelity an ethically neutral action? I'm not trying to be rude, I am curious.

[So happy together]

I have never heard of that opinion about affairs till now, neither for nor against? So you would consider infidelity an ethically neutral action? I'm not trying to be rude, I am curious.

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't judge, either positively or negatively, an affair. Each case is very different and I believe it should be seen as such. In my case, I can see both the positive and negative things that came from my boyfriends and my affair. Not just for us, but for BS, his daughter, etc. In our case, there were a lot more positives. In others, even on this very forum, very VERY negative effects can be seen from affairs. But... so can positives. It depends on the individual affair. Not only this, I realize I've no right to judge what someone does with their life.

 

So, I'm never going to tell someone "Have an affair! They are great!" But I'm also not going to get pious on someone and say "Eeek! An affair! You're going to hell!" It's just not my place.

[Betterthanthis13]

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't judge, either positively or negatively, an affair. Each case is very different and I believe it should be seen as such. In my case, I can see both the positive and negative things that came from my boyfriends and my affair. Not just for us, but for BS, his daughter, etc. In our case, there were a lot more positives. In others, even on this very forum, very VERY negative effects can be seen from affairs. But... so can positives. It depends on the individual affair. Not only this, I realize I've no right to judge what someone does with their life.

 

So, I'm never going to tell someone "Have an affair! They are great!" But I'm also not going to get pious on someone and say "Eeek! An affair! You're going to hell!" It's just not my place.

 

I *think* I understand what you are saying.

 

-Even though your relationship is the (acknowledged uncommon) happy result between a WS and AP, you do not recommend affairs to others as a dating strategy

-you see both positive and negative effects from affairs impact all parties involved. Circumstances vary greatly as do individuals

-you focus on being non judgemental about infidelity and have compassion for those who are involved in affairs

 

That is how I interpret your general treatment of affairs when it relates to discussions with others. My interpretation, can of course be wrong- hopefully is not offensive in any way.

 

All 3 bullet points I personally find no problem with(not that it's my place to judge anyway),plus I admire compassion and ability for rational thinking. From my position in the triangle, with my lenses colored by my own experiences and emotions, I can see where you get attacked quickly on the boards and end up defending things that don't really need defending. I think it's because it's easy to confuse your nonjudgemental-ness (definitely not a word) and compassion for WS's and AP's for an actual ethical stance on infidelity in general. You seem (my opinion only) hesitant to clearly state your ethical stance, while able to discuss all of the "gray area" topics that, while certainly valid, are incindiary and volitile to people when assumptions are made about your basic philosophy of the ethical implication of infidelity in general.

 

Now I'm rambling, time to try to simplify-

 

I agree that once an affair is in progress, there is no use in assigning blame or pointing fingers. Humans are messy. But that doesn't mean we can all just abandon personal development and give up totally on the idea of preventing infidelity (when possible), does it? Just all keep quiet until after the damage is done, then help clean up the mess? We have a lot of infidelity triage nurses running around, wanting to help the wounded on ALL sides of the battle, but nobody wants to talk peace treaty in the war because "it's none of our business"

"There's nothing we can do" "you can't stop people from cheating"

 

It's not a freaking tsunami, it's just people who want to be happy and are sometimes confused just like the rest of us.

 

And Ashley Madison grosses $60 million annually in gross revenue.

 

Adultery Incorporated ? The Infidelity Industry ? AlbertMohler.com

 

So why am I picking on you? Lol. I'm not. You are just on the far side of the spectrum from me with a completely different experience in the same unpleasant realm. My guess is that your actual ethical position is "ethically negative" according to my unscientific definition, and your lens happens to be colored by your own experiences and emotions, which focuses your empathy towards AP's and WS's- all logical to me.

 

 

Ethically negative- the act of infidelity breaks my moral code- I feel it is wrong to

Lie to and deceive ones spouse in the pursuit of personal happiness, it is not a good choice for me

Ethically positive- the act of infidelity does not break my moral code, I see no problem with lying and deceiving one's spouse in the pursuit of personal happiness, it is a good choice for me

Ethically neutral- the act of infidelity is irrelevant to my moral code and is neither a good nor bad choice for me

 

Gray areas

Human beings, matters of the heart, and sexuality are complicated-this list could have a million things on it

 

Anyway, I'm just here to discuss and learn.

[So happy together]

I *think* I understand what you are saying.

 

-Even though your relationship is the (acknowledged uncommon) happy result between a WS and AP, you do not recommend affairs to others as a dating strategy

-you see both positive and negative effects from affairs impact all parties involved. Circumstances vary greatly as do individuals

-you focus on being non judgemental about infidelity and have compassion for those who are involved in affairs

 

That is how I interpret your general treatment of affairs when it relates to discussions with others. My interpretation, can of course be wrong- hopefully is not offensive in any way.

 

All 3 bullet points I personally find no problem with(not that it's my place to judge anyway),plus I admire compassion and ability for rational thinking. From my position in the triangle, with my lenses colored by my own experiences and emotions, I can see where you get attacked quickly on the boards and end up defending things that don't really need defending. I think it's because it's easy to confuse your nonjudgemental-ness (definitely not a word) and compassion for WS's and AP's for an actual ethical stance on infidelity in general. You seem (my opinion only) hesitant to clearly state your ethical stance, while able to discuss all of the "gray area" topics that, while certainly valid, are incindiary and volitile to people when assumptions are made about your basic philosophy of the ethical implication of infidelity in general.

 

Now I'm rambling, time to try to simplify-

 

I agree that once an affair is in progress, there is no use in assigning blame or pointing fingers. Humans are messy. But that doesn't mean we can all just abandon personal development and give up totally on the idea of preventing infidelity (when possible), does it? Just all keep quiet until after the damage is done, then help clean up the mess? We have a lot of infidelity triage nurses running around, wanting to help the wounded on ALL sides of the battle, but nobody wants to talk peace treaty in the war because "it's none of our business"

"There's nothing we can do" "you can't stop people from cheating"

 

It's not a freaking tsunami, it's just people who want to be happy and are sometimes confused just like the rest of us.

 

And Ashley Madison grosses $60 million annually in gross revenue.

 

Adultery Incorporated ? The Infidelity Industry ? AlbertMohler.com

 

So why am I picking on you? Lol. I'm not. You are just on the far side of the spectrum from me with a completely different experience in the same unpleasant realm. My guess is that your actual ethical position is "ethically negative" according to my unscientific definition, and your lens happens to be colored by your own experiences and emotions, which focuses your empathy towards AP's and WS's- all logical to me.

 

 

Ethically negative- the act of infidelity breaks my moral code- I feel it is wrong to

Lie to and deceive ones spouse in the pursuit of personal happiness, it is not a good choice for me

Ethically positive- the act of infidelity does not break my moral code, I see no problem with lying and deceiving one's spouse in the pursuit of personal happiness, it is a good choice for me

Ethically neutral- the act of infidelity is irrelevant to my moral code and is neither a good nor bad choice for me

 

Gray areas

Human beings, matters of the heart, and sexuality are complicated-this list could have a million things on it

 

Anyway, I'm just here to discuss and learn.

 

 

I'm only going to address this one thing for now... I want to think about the things you've said. But. Here is the crux of it for me. It seems, in my opinion, that there is a big crush against the OM/OW for becoming involved in an A. We are villainised and made to feel like we are ugly human beings with no morals or values. At this same time, WS's are regularly taken back into a marriage which they broke vows to. Do not misunderstand, I am not excusing (or not excusing) anyone. I am just trying to figure out why it is that it seems to always be the OW/OM fault. I suppose because it is easier to hate us than to hate the person who betrayed BS. I'm telling you right now that I am an ethical person (yes, yes, I can literally HEAR the BS's eyes rolling), but I am honest in all of my business affairs. I am honest with my children. I am honest in my friendships and relationships. I have never cheated on a partner. And I never hid, kept secret, minimized my relationship with my boyfriend. I had nothing to hide. While I was involved with my boyfriend while he was married, I would never cheat on someone. I also would absolutely end a relationship if someone ever cheated on me. Does that make me a hypocrite? Perhaps. I just know that is not how I do things. I will also say that of course people get involved in affairs for a myriad of reasons. For me it was emotional and when we got physically involved, we were already in love and he was making plans to get out of the marriage. Not an excuse, just the way it was. And I also readily admit that I was not unhappy in the affair. We were working toward an end and I was okay with that because we were trying to do the right thing, even if backward. If he had not been actively moving forward to end the marriage I don't think I would have stayed in the affair. For us, it was a means to an end and because he had to figure out certain things (financial etc) before leaving, I was willing to wait, and because we were in love, we refused to put it aside for any longer. We'd waited 18 years. We were not willing to waste one more. I have rec'd so many PM's from BS's who rip me to shreds. Call me horrible names, make disgusting references. But they are still with the person who did that to them. I am not the problem in their marriage. Their WS is. And they are. OM/OW are symptom, not the problem. I understand why the BS would be indignant, refuse to listen to a OW, and that is their prerogative. But it seems to me they would do well to listen. To learn. I understand you are the other end of the spectrum in your relationship, too. I honestly don't really think your partner's problem is something you did... as he has an issue. But. If you stay, you have to be ready to deal with the hell. Personally? I think you deserve better.

 

I would also like to point out that I have several friends who are involved in an affair and are perfectly happy keeping it that way. Because they love the WS/sex/attention, whatever, they choose to stay in that relationship because the positives outweigh the negatives. In some cases the BS knows, in some she doesn't. In some, she knows but turns a blind eye because she has her reasons for staying in a broken marriage and the ones I know have nothing to do with love or devotion.

 

I get angry with BS's sometimes because when I hear their heartache, their misery, I just wonder why they would stay when the person they trust most (or so they say) loves/had sex with/betrayed you for someone else. Wouldn't it be easier to find someone with whom you have more in common? Who WANTS to be with you, not who is there out of obligation, money issues, guilt, whatever. And if they are a serial cheater... even more reason to run. They will NEVER be able to be faithful. If that is something that you (generally) can handle, then okay, but my guess is that most women can't handle it and it would be a life full of heartache. And if you have children, that is what they will learn.

 

I don't judge affairs because I don't know the dynamics. I hear all the time BS's say "Nobody knows what goes on in the marriage but the two people in it". But MM/OW are not afforded the same dynamic. Trust me... my boyfriends stbxw will never, ever know how close we are. She will never understand why we really don't have a choice but to be together. He and I are simply meant to be together. I'm not a religious person but my bf is very, very catholic. He held a position in the church just below a priest. He has lost that position because of this affair. And the thing is, he is not sorry. It's worth it to him. He's given up a lot for us. But the things he gave up are so minimal compared to what we've gained. She'll never know. She'll spend the rest of her life being angry and hating him and me, and will never look into herself.

 

What she really needs to do is find someone who wants to live the same life she does. And that is NOT my boyfriend. Or... I guess barring that, she could get a bunch of cats.