My mother

[Taramere]

Way to clarify your boundaries, Taramere! And, gently, a broader application may be in order.

 

I know. I'm just getting started!

[Radu]

So .... GT broke the law ?

[gaius]

Perhaps your mother's mistake was to spoil your brother so much that he was raised almost like an only child. They are the ones I've seen behave in such a chippy, passive-aggressive, self centred kind of way.

I think 99% of the people I meet fall into this category. Especially men. Maybe not quite as extreme as Tara's brother, but definitely willing to throw out people like trash once they don't have an emotional use for them anymore. Dreaming up fake cause and justification then believing fervently in that illusion. Even dumping their own mother or kids. Irregardless of how they were raised.

 

The ones that have a hard time breaking away like you and Taramere seem to be in the extreme minority. Either that or I have a weird social circle and I'm meeting all the wrong people.

Edited July 23, 2013 by gaius

[Taramere]

I think 99% of the people I meet fall into this category. Especially men. Maybe not quite as extreme as Tara's brother, but definitely willing to throw out people like trash once they don't have an emotional use for them anymore. Dreaming up fake cause and justification then believing fervently in that illusion. Even dumping their own mother or kids. Irregardless of how they were raised.

 

I want to "like" this post due to the insight - but it's such a sad state of affairs that I can't like it. You're so right. When people don't have a use for others any more, they will often demonise those others to justify chucking them out while carrying on feeling like good people.

 

My mum was useful when she was young enough and switched on enough to help with my brother's business for years (on an unpaid basis). Now that she's too old and tired (not to mention fed up of being used) to help, and he doesn't have a use for her, suddenly he starts with this unloading of all manner of alleged grievances and grudges that he's held over the years. "If she was such a terrible person", you think, "why were you so willing to accept her help for all those years?"

 

No wonder she's negative and bitter. I have to say, both my dad and I advised her many times over the years that she should do less for my brother but she'd find all sorts of excuses to keep helping him. I'd tell her that it was obvious she was feeling resentful and used, and that the more she helped him without getting thanked for it, the more resentful and used she would feel. Better to just stop helping somebody before it gets to that point where you feel completely embittered about it.

[2sure]

She must also be heartbroken.

[Mme. Chaucer]

You have no idea. Talk to Mme Chaucer about my dark fetid little fantasy moment sometime. I think I shocked her out of speaking to me for a month or so.

 

Never, my dear. Though your contributions to this thread have cast a little more interesting light upon that!

 

Now back to our Taramere ...

[Taramere]

I think she is, 2Sure. It's very hard to watch.

[Taramere]

Never, my dear. Though your contributions to this thread have cast a little more interesting light upon that!

 

Now back to our Taramere ...

 

I'm feeling bad about that "wah - stop being off topic on my thread" moment now. Sorry everybody, you've all been very kind and it wasn't a great way to show my appreciation.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Obviously there has been a party while I was occupied. You all seem like old friends.

 

I spoke to my sister about this thread yesterday and we came to some conclusions.

 

1. She could never join LS because she would take on the problems of everyone and it would be too stressful.

 

2. We clearly see the world through a different lense. We talk about events, particularly when younger and have said, "did you grow up inte same household that I did?" And in many cases the answer to that is no. Odd but true, since we are a culmination of our experience what we see is different.

 

3. We are from the South and we Southerers have an appreciation for our family "characters" so we trudge them out in pubic to show off the craziness. So for me, getting to the point of acceptance was the only goal. My parents are nutty, and that's ok.

 

4. At some point, around 30, it's time to get over what your parents did and be responsible for your own life. (Obv. Except for abuse). But in your brothers and his wife's case, s it possible their relationship is dependent upon a common enemy?

 

Obviously, I like lists, I got that from my mother, it's a curse (kidding)

[Taramere]

Obviously there has been a party while I was occupied. You all seem like old friends.

 

Most of the people who've contributed are people I've had a fair bit of banter with for a while now.

 

 

We clearly see the world through a different lense. We talk about events, particularly when younger and have said, "did you grow up inte same household that I did?" And in many cases the answer to that is no. Odd but true, since we are a culmination of our experience what we see is different.

 

Yes, it's amazing how the same scenario can seem like two completely different events depending on whose version of it you're hearing

 

At some point, around 30, it's time to get over what your parents did and be responsible for your own life. (Obv. Except for abuse). But in your brothers and his wife's case, s it possible their relationship is dependent upon a common enemy?

 

 

I would hope their relationship has more going for it than bonding over a common enemy. In the past there have been times when my sister-in-law has been quite maternal towards me too - attempting, in a kindly sort of way, to push me into that "victim of my parents" role that I've resisted (as politely as I can) being pushed by her into. I've definitely felt a sense of her wanting to show that she's the "better mother" than my mother. Maternal competitiveness can be a toxic thing indeed. I think underneath a lot of her concerned "mothering" of people is something a bit unpleasant and controlling. My brother either doesn't see it or he doesn't want to - but it seems that he can see nothing else in my mother. Perhaps he's transferring some of his feelings about his wife onto our mother for the sake of keeping the peace in his household.

 

Obviously, I like lists, I got that from my mother, it's a curse (kidding)

 

I'm fond of listing 1) 2) and 3) or a) b) and c) in my posts too. Comes of always being interrupted in real life when you're trying to be heard during the warfare and gunfire of family life. Hold up a hand.."wait! I'm not finished. There's a 2 and a 3 still to come, and possibly an a) b) and c) on a different but related matter after those."

Edited July 23, 2013 by Taramere

[Mme. Chaucer]

I'm feeling bad about that "wah - stop being off topic on my thread" moment now. Sorry everybody, you've all been very kind and it wasn't a great way to show my appreciation.

 

No way. You quit that "people pleasing" behavior right this minute! We deserved a smack down.

[Emilia]

I think 99% of the people I meet fall into this category. Especially men. Maybe not quite as extreme as Tara's brother, but definitely willing to throw out people like trash once they don't have an emotional use for them anymore. Dreaming up fake cause and justification then believing fervently in that illusion. Even dumping their own mother or kids. Irregardless of how they were raised.

 

The ones that have a hard time breaking away like you and Taramere seem to be in the extreme minority. Either that or I have a weird social circle and I'm meeting all the wrong people.

 

I want to "like" this post due to the insight - but it's such a sad state of affairs that I can't like it. You're so right. When people don't have a use for others any more, they will often demonise those others to justify chucking them out while carrying on feeling like good people.

 

My mum was useful when she was young enough and switched on enough to help with my brother's business for years (on an unpaid basis). Now that she's too old and tired (not to mention fed up of being used) to help, and he doesn't have a use for her, suddenly he starts with this unloading of all manner of alleged grievances and grudges that he's held over the years. "If she was such a terrible person", you think, "why were you so willing to accept her help for all those years?"

I don't know, it hasn't been my experience.... OR maybe it's that I have a circle of friends whom I have known for many years and I know some very good men (some who are my exes) so perhaps having those people around allows me to ignore the rest.

 

I suppose I see many people as blind and unable to build real and valueable connections. I mean look at the 'break up/coping' sections, people have absolutely no idea what goes on in their relationships.

 

On the other hand, I pay attention to my boundaries too and I'm sure some people could accuse me of 'throwing them away' when they have no use to me anymore. It's probably something we all do when we feel enough is enough, no?

[Taramere]

I don't know, it hasn't been my experience.... OR maybe it's that I have a circle of friends whom I have known for many years and I know some very good men (some who are my exes) so perhaps having those people around allows me to ignore the rest.

 

It's easy to ignore until it's happening amongst people you've been close to - then it hits you in the face.

 

I've been wary about my brother for years, really. On the face of it we've got along well, but I recall about 10 years ago I got fired from a job. I know people get fired a lot, but this was done in a particularly horrible way at an important time in my job. I remember going round and telling him "I've been sacked from my job." His immediate response was "look, I don't want to hear about it. I've had a sh*t day with demanding customers and I don't need to hear about other people's crap."

 

I remember I just didn't answer. I didn't trust myself to speak, so I picked up one of the kids (they were just babies at the time) and focused on her. Then he started justifying himself in a sort of semi-guilty way that really just made it worse. I told him to forget it, and I vowed to myself that I'd never confide in him about anything again.

 

So from his perspective I've been great. Good with his kids, always trying to smooth the waters over when family dynamics are rippling them, always ready to listen to his sh*t and keeping my own to myself. But of course sooner or later it ends up coming out - and when it does come out, it's in a relationship ending torrent. You can't forever focus on other people's needs and pretend that you don't have any yourself.

 

Utilitarian people can, in some ways, keep you on your toes. They're a reminder that this can be a harsh world in which there's little room for passengers and that from most people's perspective if you don't bring something useful to the table you're pretty much worthless. On the other hand, friends and family are supposed to be a break from those ruthless aspects of life - not an extension of it.

[Emilia]

I've been wary about my brother for years, really. On the face of it we've got along well, but I recall about 10 years ago I got fired from a job. I know people get fired a lot, but this was done in a particularly horrible way at an important time in my job. I remember going round and telling him "I've been sacked from my job." His immediate response was "look, I don't want to hear about it. I've had a sh*t day with demanding customers and I don't need to hear about other people's crap."

 

A different perspective: when a very close friend lost his job earlier in the year I asked him to stop telling me about it at one point because it stressed me out as I knew he was potentially in financial difficulty.

 

It's not that my friend was going on and on or that he was trying to get money out of me or anything like that but at that particular time (we had talked about the situation a few times though) the anxiety I was feeling on his behalf was too much for me so I asked him to stop. I did explain why however. It sounds like your brother was stressed and he didn't want to take more stress on. Unfair as that sounds, it's a valid reason.

[Taramere]

A different perspective: when a very close friend lost his job earlier in the year I asked him to stop telling me about it at one point because it stressed me out as I knew he was potentially in financial difficulty.

 

It's not that my friend was going on and on or that he was trying to get money out of me or anything like that but at that particular time (we had talked about the situation a few times though) the anxiety I was feeling on his behalf was too much for me so I asked him to stop. I did explain why however. It sounds like your brother was stressed and he didn't want to take more stress on. Unfair as that sounds, it's a valid reason.

 

I felt that as a sister who had often provided him with a lot of support, I deserved a more considerate response. I suppose I'm at a point now where I'm tired of trying to look at things from the perspective of my brother who makes little or no effort to return the favour.

[Emilia]

I felt that as a sister who had often provided him with a lot of support, I deserved a more considerate response. I suppose I'm at a point now where I'm tired of trying to look at things from the perspective of my brother who makes little or no effort to return the favour.

Oh that's absolutely fair and you absolutely should not put others' needs before yours continuously, as GT said: boundaries. Merely an explanation from a stressed person's point of view. This isn't to say he shouldn't have spoken to you when he calmed down it's just that most people don't have that clarity. Your brother certainly doesn't appear to have it - but to a degree it's a choice.

[Taramere]

Oh that's absolutely fair and you absolutely should not put others' needs before yours continuously, as GT said: boundaries. Merely an explanation from a stressed person's point of view. This isn't to say he shouldn't have spoken to you when he calmed down it's just that most people don't have that clarity. Your brother certainly doesn't appear to have it - but to a degree it's a choice.

 

Yeah. One thing he and his wife have done brilliantly - and that is their kids. They are absolutely lovely, and I would hate to not have them in my life.

 

I flip out sometimes. Not often, but when it happens I do go off on one - and I've said things in the last few days that I regret. So I'm trying to make my peace with my brother. Selfish as he can be at times, he's my brother - and I don't want to lose him from my life either.

[2sure]

Im not close with my brother because his wife is painful to be around.

They have been married since I was 6, so you would think she would be like a sister to myself and my sisters. Nope.

 

Not that we are without our own issues. Anyway, my SIL has always been this way - misinformed, judgemental, and vocal about it. She reprimands. Also, I should add that she is mean and dumb as a box of rocks. I was always the sister that could deal with her best. My other sisters spent sometimes years between conversations with her.

 

But with age, she has gotten worse. And about 10 years ago when I started to become successful in my career - she seemed to focus on me at family gaterings. My sisters were unsupportive having been there done that.

 

Worse she has become a very vocal bigot. I wont tolerate that in conversation and have taught my daughter not to do so. So, we leave.

Its my only option other than cutting her down which could be easily done -- but she is my brothers wife.

 

I always felt like I was obligated to accept her. But the new racist comments are just beyond what I think anyone, including my brother, should tolerate.

 

Total t/j. But related. Not a question a rant. Thank you .

[Taramere]

Not that we are without our own issues. Anyway, my SIL has always been this way - misinformed, judgemental, and vocal about it. She reprimands. Also, I should add that she is mean and dumb as a box of rocks. I was always the sister that could deal with her best. My other sisters spent sometimes years between conversations with her.

 

But with age, she has gotten worse. And about 10 years ago when I started to become successful in my career - she seemed to focus on me at family gaterings. My sisters were unsupportive having been there done that.

 

Sounds familiar. If somebody asks me how work is going and I answer positively, as likely or not out of the corner of my eye I'll spot my SIL's face adopt a slapped arse expression as she mentions something about careers not being everything, and some things mattering more - as though I said, at any time, that they were. But of course, while she jumps up and down in hobnailed boots on everybody else's feelings, they have to treat hers like 1000 year old precious eggshells.

 

 

I always felt like I was obligated to accept her. But the new racist comments are just beyond what I think anyone, including my brother, should tolerate.

 

Total t/j. But related. Not a question a rant. Thank you .

 

Honestly, it's a relief to hear other people give their stories. I think in these situations you can get bogged down with that "sh*t, my family is so dysfunctional" feeling. I've ranted to a few friends about this over the past few days, and each and every one of them has a similar tale to tell. It doesn't matter how nice and impossible to dislike you think your friends are - somebody somewhere is sharpening their knife for them, and often as not that somebody is an in-law.

[Taramere]

Well, I did try to patch things up with my brother but I've a feeling that since I said I don't feel comfortable around his wife and would therefore prefer to see him and the kids in my own home, I've probably had it.

 

His wife tends to be a very mood/sulk prone personality who is endlessly critical of our mother. She's done it in front of me before. In fact, one time when my niece was younger, my sister in law and her mother encouraged my niece to mimic my mother in a very mocking way - right in front of me. I was upset and offended, and though I don't think I went over the score I did make my feelings known and asked my niece never to let me see her mimicking her grandmother and my mother in that way again. Needless to say there were plenty of catty exchanges of glances and eye rolling - but I just thought "well no. Screw all of you, you might get to make fun of my mother in front of her son with nothing said about it, but you don't get to do it in front of me."

 

That was ages ago now, but there have been other similarly hurtful incidents that have left me facing this conflict between being protective of my own mother and not wanting to rock the boat too much. While my brother flatly denies that his wife's dislike of our mother has any bearing on his attitude towards her ("I'm my own person" etc etc) I am dubious.

 

Another thread made me think about something here. My brother is a bit of a low achiever. He has a very high IQ but always made a point of under-achieving to the point where there was something a bit passive aggressive about it. I think it was his way of rebelling against our parents, who did tend to push us a lot. I've seen them be the same way with their grandchildren. Critical in a way that's liable to get passive aggression and rebellion rather than compliance from young children. They tend to criticise rather than encourage and praise - and my mother in particular.

 

That's her approach with children rather than adults, I should say. Old fashioned and not necessarily always very helpful...it's an approach that probably only works with A types and people who are equally critical of themselves. I suspect that approach is probably what lies at the heart of my brother's strong negative feelings (what seems like out and out hatred at this point) towards her. He and his wife are of a very similar mindset - ie that the most important thing they can give their children is a happy, confident outlook. That being The Best is not important. I think they've done very well with them as a result of that approach. The children are confident, outgoing and well adjusted.

 

My parents, especially my mother, don't always see that. I was out to lunch with the kids and my mother some months back. She'd taken us to a very nice hotel for lunch - and to be honest, it really wasn't child appropriate. Especially not for our two who just aren't "trained" to handle that sort of thing as kids in the way that my brother and I were. In the children's eyes, they were behaving well - and I was encouraging them by congratulating their behaviour (the waiting staff were also superb in that respect) but of course my mother was looking for these perfect manners that you rarely see in kids.

 

At one point she started picking at my niece. Then she made a comment to me about the sullen facial expression my niece had adopted (and did a sotto voce "we know who she gets that from" aside to me) - which fortunately was too quiet for either of the kids to hear from where they were sitting - but it must have nonetheless looked horrible to them, having my mother mutter some evidently bitchy comment to me about my niece. I looked at my niece and could see straight away that she wasn't being sullen - she was actually trying desperately to hold back tears. I felt like crying myself when I saw it, so I went round and hugged her. Then of course she burst into tears, my mum was contrite and waiters appeared with ice cream and little extra treats. I had told my mother so many times "we should take them to pizza hut or somewhere like that. It's not a treat for them to be in a posh hotel where you expect them to behave like little models of perfection from the Victorian era."

 

So I can definitely see my brother's point....but the faults my mother makes in parenting children are not life threatening, or even particularly liable to threaten the children's self esteem in any major way. They can be fairly easily countered with a more encouraging approach - but my brother doesn't see that. In some ways he and my mother are quite similar in their tendency to catastrophise other people's flaws (under-achieving/not trying hard enough in my mother's eyes, being too critical and demanding too high standards in my brother's eyes) as things that can potentially ruin children's lives and futures. There's definitely a "my/our approach to parenting is the best one" competition going on there, though it's never actually been expressed in those terms.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Taramere

[Radu]

Lots of stubborness .

[Taramere]

Lots of stubborness .

 

Lots of stubborn behaviour, competitive parenting, gripes from childhood etc etc. I ranted for a while to an old friend from this site on PM last night, and have spoken to a few friends about it. Stuff like this happens and you find your own issues from childhood bubbling back up to the surface. There probably needs to be some distance for a while, but I hope my brother and I will eventually patch things up. I don't think he and my mother ever will, and I've just resigned myself to that now.

[2sure]

I have to attend a party tomorrow , co-hosted by my racist bigoted SIL. She gets into some kind of agressive behavior when she is entertaining, who knows why . Anyway, I'm sure she will focus on being nasty to me so I will avoid her.

 

None of my sisters are going. But this event is for my nephews step daughter and I love them, so of course I'm going. I have to get into a better frame of mind.

 

Just a note regarding children and manners in formal places. It's very hard on them, it just isn't possible to make them comfortable with the expectations unless they do it frequently. Actually, my daughter did have to attend dinners like this frequently and as long as she stayed in her seat and used her fork, I felt she was successful. I've seen others chide children for not displaying graces they've never had to use. If your mom wants them to improve their skills, she better offer to take them to high end dining once a week. Or, take them to family places.

 

Now that I say this, I think I'm going to make my daughter go with me tomorrow . Practice taking the high road.

[turnera]

It's good for kids to learn that they sometimes have to do something they don't like.

[Taramere]

Well, I resolved things with my brother and had a lovely afternoon with him and his family recently. My SIL is going through a difficult time just now and when I mentioned it to my mother she (my mum) was callous about it in a way that I found somewhat shocking.

 

I told her that, and that while I love her and appreciate everything she's done for me, it's hard for me to understand the unforgiving and callous approach she is capable of taking to people she dislikes or feels wronged by. I know my brother was wrong in his behaviour, but I think it was a reaction to the level of extreme coldness she sometimes employs in her dealings with people she dislikes. I mean we all have people we don't get along with, but they're still human beings.

 

Anyway, I implored her to make some sort of contact with my brother - which she has now done. Her approach to making contact was far from ideal, and made more for my benefit I think than for her own - but it was at least an attempt. I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that her relationship with her grandchildren can be salvaged in amongst this mess. Thanks again to all who contributed and gave support. Much appreciated