If it wasn't the norm for men to approach women ....

[SensitiveTJ]

Is that so? Then why is PUA a million dollar industry? Why are dating books such as "The Game" and "The Rules" best sellers? People are just buying these for fun?

 

PUA and all that is aimed at the small minority of men who are completely clueless about how to have relationships. They are not the norm. The majority of men will never need such things. I never have. Neither have most men on this site, or anywhere else. If you truly are striking out with all women, well...that's not typical. In fact, it's highly unusual.

[tomtucker]

PUA and all that is aimed at the small minority of men who are completely clueless about how to have relationships. They are not the norm. The majority of men will never need such things. I never have. Neither have most men on this site, or anywhere else. If you truly are striking out with all women, well...that's not typical. In fact, it's highly unusual.

 

PUA is geared more towards cold approaches. This is an area where most guys strike out very often. Consistent success is not the norm in that area (in the US).

[SensitiveTJ]

PUA is geared more towards cold approaches. This is an area where most guys strike out very often. Consistent success is not the norm in that area (in the US).

 

I disagree. I think cold approaching is still the best way to meet women. Most guys don't struggle with this, in my experience. And the ones who do typically have very identifiable reasons why.

[tomtucker]

I disagree. I think cold approaching is still the best way to meet women. Most guys don't struggle with this, in my experience. And the ones who do typically have very identifiable reasons why.

 

I'm not sure where you go or who you hang out with, but cold approaching is definitely a numbers game.

 

I don't know if I'd call it "struggling", but you definitely have to get rejected a decent amount before you get a girl. I've spent time with many different kinds of people from all over the world and I've yet to see one case that this didn't hold true (unless the guy was exceptionally good-looking and waited for women to approach him).

[SensitiveTJ]

I'm not sure where you go or who you hang out with, but cold approaching is definitely a numbers game.

 

I don't know if I'd call it "struggling", but you definitely have to get rejected a decent amount before you get a girl. I've spent time with many different kinds of people from all over the world and I've yet to see one case that this didn't hold true (unless the guy was exceptionally good-looking and waited for women to approach him).

 

 

I don't really see a problem with that. If a person isn't prepared to be rejected, then they aren't prepared to date. No big deal, really.

[tomtucker]

I don't really see a problem with that. If a person isn't prepared to be rejected, then they aren't prepared to date. No big deal, really.

 

I agree.

 

It seems that we were arguing the same point.

[PJKino]

If that were the case it would be even harder for average or unattactive men..

 

Women at first sight arent attracted to that many men aside from the top few % in looks so its not like average men would be approached by women all of a sudden

 

For an average dude to have a chance he has to approach and use other things other then looks to attract women

[Seductive]

This is the opposite of what I've observed.

 

The attractive females that I know generally go from relationship to relationship. They have guys hitting on them constantly, but they claim not to (they say that the guy is "just a friend", but it's clear to everyone that the guy wants more).

 

When people tell me, "You're so pretty. Why are you still single?", I tell them "I don't believe in jumping from relationship to relationship for the sake of having a boyfriend. I want to be with the RIGHT person." I understand some people LIKE to have many boyfriends/girlfriends. That's fine, but it's not my cup of tea. I want to give my heart away to the person that I know I'm going to have a future with.

 

I don't know an attractive woman to be unsuccessful with men.

 

Then again, I don't know any woman to unsuccessful with men unless she is blatantly causing her own problems (one of my relatively attractive female friends seems to like guys with no jobs as long term boyfriends, for example).

 

It's possible to be hit on many men that the attractive woman doesn't like. I get hit on by a lot of men in their 40's and 50's, as well as 22 year olds that live with their parents. Some of these 22 year olds are very cute, but they don't make good long-term partners.

 

I do take responsibility for not doing the things that will lead me to the man I want, which is someone close to my age, career-oriented and compatible with my personality. I wasted these past several months being so busy with work (which is female dominated) and again doing female-dominated recreational activities.

[NGC1300]

The problem is men salivating over every woman they see. It's pathetic. It has propped up the egos of women and has launched their expectations to stratospheric heights.

 

I know I'm not alone in recognizing this. A completely average-looking woman, as long as she's somewhat young and not obese, will be swiftly acknowledged by any group of males anywhere. And this is when she's not being hit on directly.

 

Men have really done themselves in. They have convinced women they're so damn special and valuable that in the process they've drastically lowered their chances with said women, because said women will always be seeking better and better and better.

Edited July 21, 2013 by NGC1300

[hotpotato]

I don't have an answer for your question, because I find these hypotheticals uninteresting, but I have to take umbrage with a phrase you used: "a very small percentage of men find dating easy." This is false. Dating is not difficult, most people navigate it with little trouble. The wide majority of human beings do not experience significant difficulty forming opposite-sex relationships. Frankly, you have it backwards. Only a small percentage of men find dating hard.

 

Oh really. What lucky ducks!

I think there are people who have it easy in the dating world-the ones who marry the hs sweetheart. In other words, the ones who dont date or date very little...

[hotpotato]

This is the opposite of what I've observed.

 

The attractive females that I know generally go from relationship to relationship. They have guys hitting on them constantly, but they claim not to (they say that the guy is "just a friend", but it's clear to everyone that the guy wants more).

 

I don't know an attractive woman to be unsuccessful with men.

 

Then again, I don't know any woman to unsuccessful with men unless she is blatantly causing her own problems (one of my relatively attractive female friends seems to like guys with no jobs as long term boyfriends, for example).

 

Dating world is not all roses for attractive women... I get called beautiful and gorgeous and nice all the time, still not much luck. Let's see...There is usually a gap between my boyfriends of at least one year.

 

When I have dated, the men have left me for women who were less attractive and cuckoo.

 

I got 0 dates in college. I had one boyfriend in hs because someone else convinced him to date me.

 

I try online dating with more success. However, most of those guys are after one thing, and that's getting me in bed ASAP. I'm sure a lot of guys think it would be fun, but if I only wanted sex i would have joined a sex club or adult friend finder!

[Seductive]

Dating world is not all roses for attractive women... I get called beautiful and gorgeous and nice all the time, still not much luck. Let's see...There is usually a gap between my boyfriends of at least one year.

 

When I have dated, the men have left me for women who were less attractive and cuckoo.

 

I got 0 dates in college. I had one boyfriend in hs because someone else convinced him to date me.

 

I try online dating with more success. However, most of those guys are after one thing, and that's getting me in bed ASAP. I'm sure a lot of guys think it would be fun, but if I only wanted sex i would have joined a sex club or adult friend finder!

 

 

Hotpotato, do you mind if I ask how you come off in terms of energy and demeanor?

 

A good male friend pointed out to me that I come off as stressed and rushed, and that can make people more weary to approach. People tell me I'm kind and easy-going, but my inside feelings of anxiety can still show. It's like I'm giving this "Don't get in my space" vibe. When I look at other beautiful women, they also seem closed off or "preoccupied". It's good to ask others if we are presenting ourselves as receptive.

 

I also am no longer a fan of OLD. It's like finding a diamond in piles of charcoal. It can be a self-esteem booster with the compliments you get though, but don't expect to find the right relationship.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Seductive

[Pompeii]

I read something somewhere where women were presented with a large group of pictures of men and immediately, 80% of the men were thrown out by women as "undesirable". Women pretty much see most men as invisible and asexual and the guys who get the most attention from women are part of this 20%. I don't believe the numbers are so split like that, but it should be obvious that a small minority of the men get attention from women.

 

These are the men who are free to get away with treating women any sort of way they want and they will still come crawling back for more. These are the men that give men as a whole a bad name. Women think that these men are representative of the whole. When women say "men are pigs", they are thinking of these men.

[Pompeii]

PUA and all that is aimed at the small minority of men who are completely clueless about how to have relationships. They are not the norm. The majority of men will never need such things. I never have. Neither have most men on this site, or anywhere else. If you truly are striking out with all women, well...that's not typical. In fact, it's highly unusual.

 

I doubt that. PUA has become so assimilated into popular culture, I doubt it is just this small minority of men.

[LittleTiger]

.... then would the dating world be any different?

 

Here's why I ask. When I bring up the fact that any woman above average in looks has zero problem getting attention from the opposite sex and has to put in zero effort to get laid or find a date, while, on the other hand, it seems that a very small percentage of men find dating easy, a lot of people will respond to this fact by saying that the discrepancy can be explained by the fact that it's the norm for men to be the pursuers. So, if they're right, that means that if the "men are supposed to approach" norm disappeared, we'd have a situation where men the average guy would find himself getting as much attention as the average woman does today.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

I think we'd have to evolve for several thousand more years to find a world where men approaching women 'isn't the norm'.

 

50 Shades was so popular with women because it mirrored their desire to be dominated by a strong, powerful man. There may be plenty of modern women who don't have that desire but it's part of our evolutionary heritage so it's not going away in a hurry.

 

If women were suddenly expected to approach men as often as men approach women, in our current society, I think you would find that a lot more people would be single.

 

Women like sweetkiwi are in the minority. More women seem to like strong, dominant men than quiet, shy ones. So what you'd probably find is that there would be even more competition for the 'dominant' men who prefer to do the approaching themselves.

 

I would rather be single than with a guy who isn't dominant enough to pursue me. It's always been the ardent pursuit that turns me on!

[Shepp]

See I don't think it would change much! I see girls approach guys all the time!

 

In fact girls can be far more Blatent that a guy ever would - I met a girl on a night out once when I was playing in a football tournament abroad who like wrapped herself round me - mate a guy would get like chucked out or called a right perv for doing the same!

[SteveC80]

I think we'd have to evolve for several thousand more years to find a world where men approaching women 'isn't the norm'.

 

50 Shades was so popular with women because it mirrored their desire to be dominated by a strong, powerful man. There may be plenty of modern women who don't have that desire but it's part of our evolutionary heritage so it's not going away in a hurry.

 

If women were suddenly expected to approach men as often as men approach women, in our current society, I think you would find that a lot more people would be single.

 

Women like sweetkiwi are in the minority. More women seem to like strong, dominant men than quiet, shy ones. So what you'd probably find is that there would be even more competition for the 'dominant' men who prefer to do the approaching themselves.

 

I would rather be single than with a guy who isn't dominant enough to pursue me. It's always been the ardent pursuit that turns me on!

 

I would agree and i know its not pc to say but a women wants to feel her man is superior to her in some way and make her want to serve him and do whatever he wants

[LittleTiger]

I would agree and i know its not pc to say but a women wants to feel her man is superior to her in some way and make her want to serve him and do whatever he wants

 

I don't think 'superior' is quite the right word. My guy and I have a fairly traditional relationship. Although I have a strong personality and we consider ourselves equals he is, nevertheless, 'the boss'. I don't serve him or do whatever he wants, but, when it comes to sexual dynamics he is definitely in charge - and that's how we like it.

 

If he hadn't approached me, that would have made him a different man - and we'd both still be single.

[Seductive]

I think we'd have to evolve for several thousand more years to find a world where men approaching women 'isn't the norm'.

 

50 Shades was so popular with women because it mirrored their desire to be dominated by a strong, powerful man. There may be plenty of modern women who don't have that desire but it's part of our evolutionary heritage so it's not going away in a hurry.

 

If women were suddenly expected to approach men as often as men approach women, in our current society, I think you would find that a lot more people would be single.

 

Women like sweetkiwi are in the minority. More women seem to like strong, dominant men than quiet, shy ones. So what you'd probably find is that there would be even more competition for the 'dominant' men who prefer to do the approaching themselves.

 

I would rather be single than with a guy who isn't dominant enough to pursue me. It's always been the ardent pursuit that turns me on!

 

I agree! When I take the lead, it puts me in the take charge role and the guy gets lazy. there's no reason for him to show his ambition or ability to lead. I would much rather be with a confident man than one that's too scared to make the move.

[tomtucker]

 

 

When people tell me, "You're so pretty. Why are you still single?", I tell them "I don't believe in jumping from relationship to relationship for the sake of having a boyfriend. I want to be with the RIGHT person." I understand some people LIKE to have many boyfriends/girlfriends. That's fine, but it's not my cup of tea. I want to give my heart away to the person that I know I'm going to have a future with.

 

 

 

It's possible to be hit on many men that the attractive woman doesn't like. I get hit on by a lot of men in their 40's and 50's, as well as 22 year olds that live with their parents. Some of these 22 year olds are very cute, but they don't make good long-term partners.

 

I do take responsibility for not doing the things that will lead me to the man I want, which is someone close to my age, career-oriented and compatible with my personality. I wasted these past several months being so busy with work (which is female dominated) and again doing female-dominated recreational activities.

 

I said: "Attractive women only have problems dating because they cause these problems."

 

You said: "I don't go from relationship to relationship because I don't want to and I don't surround myself with available men my age".

 

So, in conclusion, you agree with me.

[hotpotato]

Hotpotato, do you mind if I ask how you come off in terms of energy and demeanor?

 

A good male friend pointed out to me that I come off as stressed and rushed, and that can make people more weary to approach. People tell me I'm kind and easy-going, but my inside feelings of anxiety can still show. It's like I'm giving this "Don't get in my space" vibe. When I look at other beautiful women, they also seem closed off or "preoccupied". It's good to ask others if we are presenting ourselves as receptive.

 

I also am no longer a fan of OLD. It's like finding a diamond in piles of charcoal. It can be a self-esteem booster with the compliments you get though, but don't expect to find the right relationship.

 

I would definitely say I do seem preoccupied!

[ltjg45]

Obviously she was not actively intimidating them but rather they were intimidated because she is an attractive lady...some shy guys find attractive ladies intimidating

 

That's basically me in a nutshell.

 

I just don't approach attractive women because, 9/10, I can't hang with them. They expect a decent guy who has a job, his own place, perhaps a car, possibly a college degree.

 

I can understand that completely. As for me?

 

I just got a job a few weeks ago, still live with my mother, no car or Driver's License, and I'm trying to get back into college.

 

What attractive woman wants someone who is, apparently, behind the curve, both in career path and in dating? It gets better if she ever finds out I have no dating experience either. I bet that will be a glorious deal breaker for her.

 

I'm not going to waste the time of a more successful overall woman with my pitiful excuse for failure at this point.

[KungFuJoe]

That's basically me in a nutshell.

 

I just don't approach attractive women because, 9/10, I can't hang with them. They expect a decent guy who has a job, his own place, perhaps a car, possibly a college degree.

 

And this is SO wrong, it's not even funny. Attractive women want a decent guy just like any other woman.

 

When I was younger and dating, I drove a beat up 1985 Toyota Corolla SR-5 that I bought used (this was in the early/mid 90s) for 2400 dollars cash. That thing was a hooptie. I was making 9 dollars an hour working tech support for a Chinese PC house. I barely graduated high school...dropped out of college...and I lived in a room in my best friend's apartment, and he still lived with his mom.

 

So single guy, beat up car, living in a room with my friend and his mom. And I got VERY attractive women. They didn't care what kind of car I drove and I actually got a LOT of action in that beat up old Corolla.

 

They just cared what kind of guy *I* was.

[jma500]

I don't approach women. I have always felt that my approach would be seen as unwanted and as such would be violating another's personal space.

[ltjg45]

And this is SO wrong, it's not even funny. Attractive women want a decent guy just like any other woman.

 

When I was younger and dating, I drove a beat up 1985 Toyota Corolla SR-5 that I bought used (this was in the early/mid 90s) for 2400 dollars cash. That thing was a hooptie. I was making 9 dollars an hour working tech support for a Chinese PC house. I barely graduated high school...dropped out of college...and I lived in a room in my best friend's apartment, and he still lived with his mom.

 

So single guy, beat up car, living in a room with my friend and his mom. And I got VERY attractive women. They didn't care what kind of car I drove and I actually got a LOT of action in that beat up old Corolla.

 

They just cared what kind of guy *I* was.

 

There is a difference between me and you.

 

You have a car. You got something. It may be a glorified piece of junk that may break down at any given moment but you have a car.

 

That says something positive to women, whatever that may be.

 

I don't even have that. I had a driver's license but I never had access to a car, even during dire times so I can't use that to my advantage and I had to let the license go since I can't afford to renew it and it was a waste of money since I wasn't even driving.

Edited July 21, 2013 by ltjg45