Do you think MM/MW would cheat on you if you were in the same boat as the BS?

[HopingAgain]

I can justify all I want also. My ex-wife had two affairs, I stayed until my children were grown, etc., etc., etc.. It does not change the fact that I am married to the person with whom I engaged in an affair.

 

Like it or not, it DOES take away a bit of our moral standing.

 

Sure it does, who is arguing otherwise? But there is still a lesson to be learned from it if a person truly regrets that path and has changed the behaviors that led up to going down it in the first place.

[HopingAgain]

So no affair ever took place then?

 

Go back and reread my posts from the beginning of this thread up to here, you will have your answer.

[MissBee]

Which again, to me, marrying your AP and staying in a relationship with them is no different than being in an active affair and saying you are against affairs. Both are hypocritical.

 

"The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

 

I think the definition of pretense, and even the examples they give, over and over, shows there is some deceit or lie or pretending needed for hypocrisy to be concluded. An alcoholic pretending to be sober, that would be akin to me being on LS everyday speaking against affairs, but I'm secretly currently with a married man...that's pretense...it is not just about conforming, as the article says. An alcoholic is clearly not conforming to sobriety, however, he is not a hypocrite for non-conformance, he is a hypocrite only when he is pretending to be sober.

 

 

noun, plural hy·poc·ri·sies.

1.

a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

2.

a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.

 

As it says: it's not about not practicing what you preach, it's about pretending and deceit that you do. Pretense and deceit are integral to hypocrisy. Marrying your affair partner and admitting you are married and used to be in an affair, yet don't recommend it, is not being hypocritical. The definition of hypocrisy relies on a deliberate feigning, pretense and deceit of a virtue...there is some show that you believe something but secretly act otherwise. This secrecy and pretending is what makes something hypocritical. The article asserts that the term hypocrisy is often used incorrectly, and I think how you're using it is an example of such, as marrying your AP, then advocating that affairs aren't good is exactly the same as the example they give that a current alcoholic advocating temperance, is not a hypocrite, until he pretends to be sober.

 

 

I thought it helpful to also define pretense, as the definition of hypocrisy relies heavily on defining it as pretense, which is:

 

 

pre·tense [pri-tens, pree-tens] Show IPA

noun

1.

pretending or feigning; make-believe: My sleepiness was all pretense.

2.

a false show of something: a pretense of friendship.

3.

a piece of make-believe.

4.

the act of pretending or alleging falsely.

5.

a false allegation or justification: He excused himself from the lunch on a pretense of urgent business

 

Without this deceit or pretending and falsifying of your story or situation...it isn't hypocrisy but more akin to reformation.

Edited July 23, 2013 by MissBee

[HappyAtLast]

Sure it does, who is arguing otherwise? But there is still a lesson to be learned from it if a person truly regrets that path and has changed the behaviors that led up to going down it in the first place.

 

Hoping, I don't think you are arguing the point. I just think perhaps you don't understand why folks are taking issue with you. Despite your good intentions, sometimes the message will be lost based upon your history.

 

I have made my peace with myself and my God many years ago, but that does not mean that folks still don't consider me to be a cheater and may chose to take what I say with a grain of salt. I can help folks in other ways regarding affairs, but to take a very black and white stand, with my background, just really is ineffective.

[MissBee]

I am not sure that there is not some hypocrisy happening here.

 

As I former wandering spouse married to their affair partner for many decades now, I will always advise someone on the side of not engaging in an affair. That said, based upon my background, there is really only so far that I can go with this. I cannot make blanket statements regarding affairs, since I allowed myself to engage in one.

As an example, a reformed thief, in my humble opinion would need to return everything he had ever stolen and got it out of his life before becoming one who preaches out against stealing.

 

Preaching out against stealing whilst living amongst all of the luxuries that one has stolen does seem a bit hypocritical to me.

 

That's according to you, but unfortunately, the definition of hypocrisy doesn't set that as a criteria.

 

If an alcoholic advocating temperance is not considered practicing hypocrisy, by the fact that he isn't feigning sobriety, why would a reformed thief need to return everything he has stolen? The definition of hypocrisy doesn't hinge on not doing something, it hinges on whether or not one is pretending and advocating something while in secret you do otherwise.

 

Returning your stolen goods may be the criteria for reformation or getting forgiveness, but it's not a criteria for hypocrisy.

[HopingAgain]

Hoping, I don't think you are arguing the point. I just think perhaps you don't understand why folks are taking issue with you. Despite your good intentions, sometimes the message will be lost based upon your history.

 

I have made my peace with myself and my God many years ago, but that does not mean that folks still don't consider me to be a cheater and may chose to take what I say with a grain of salt. I can help folks in other ways regarding affairs, but to take a very black and white stand, with my background, just really is ineffective.

 

Oh, I understand that. Some won't believe my sincerity based on the fact that I once participated in the behavior myself, and that's o.k. If I wanted to really demonize affairs to the fullest extent, I could just as easily have never disclosed our origins, and to some that would ring more true. But I choose to disclose in discussions like these because for me, its part of living an authentic life.

[HappyAtLast]

That's according to you, but unfortunately, the definition of hypocrisy doesn't set that as a criteria.

 

If an alcoholic advocating temperance is not considered practicing hypocrisy, by the fact that he isn't feigning sobriety, why would a reformed thief need to return everything he has stolen? The definition of hypocrisy doesn't hinge on not doing something, it hinges on whether or not one is pretending and advocating something while in secret you do otherwise.

 

Returning your stolen goods may be the criteria for reformation or getting forgiveness, but it's not a criteria for hypocrisy.

 

The strict definition of hypocrisy aside... you would not find yourself wanting to roll your eyes at someone preaching the evils of stealing whilst wearing a stolen mink coat, and a plethora of stolen diamond jewelry?

[jlola]

MissBee is mine, I saw her first!

 

 

If I had a daughter, I would certainly want her to be mentored by a woman with integrity,empathy,intelligence and COMMON SENSE!!!

 

This "all about ME",MY feelings,MY gains,MY happiness brings more misery in the long run to society, than self awareness and doing onto others as you would have them do onto you..

 

I also agree, just because you have gained from something, does not mean you cannot warn others against it!

 

Mary Magdelene was a prostitute. She certainly gained and made money in her trade. But Jesus forgave and told her "go,sin no more". He did not say, "give back all of the money and all of the items you have bought with the money you made as a prostitutetherwise, you cannot advice girls not to get into that lifestyle".

[HappyAtLast]

Oh, I understand that. Some won't believe my sincerity based on the fact that I once participated in the behavior myself, and that's o.k. If I wanted to really demonize affairs to the fullest extent, I could just as easily have never disclosed our origins, and to some that would ring more true. But I choose to disclose in discussions like these because for me, its part of living an authentic life.

 

I don't doubt your sincerity at all. I also have pretty strong beliefs regarding affairs, including that I felt they were wrong WHILE I was actually engaged in one.

 

If I may ask, specifically what is the outcome from others that you desire as you post?

 

I must step away for a bit, I have agreed to perform surgery on a parrot.

[MissBee]

Additionally, I also fail to understand how those for whom an affair was "successful" for lack of a better word, ended up with their affair partner can possibly tell another embarking on the same journey that they are going to fail.

 

Yes, I may think it. We all know the statistics. But, being so blatant about it, to me, sounds as though one is saying "well yes, it worked out for me because I am smarter, nicer, insert appropriate word here, then you folks are so don't try this at home."

 

It's an ability to see your situation, as well as assess a bigger picture. I think it is prudent not to use yourself as a measuring stick without understanding a larger picture.

 

Although I think the example of "You will fail" is made up, in that, every story which comes here is a specific story, and people tend to advise based on what the OP presents, and unless we have a specific thread to point to where a "successful" person actually told someone else this, then, we're just using a made-up point as an illustration, which is fine, but not necessarily accurate.

 

I am a mentor and grad student for example, when I was applying to graduate programs I applied to one program, where the acceptance rate is 9%...they only accept 9% of the people who apply. My advice to my mentees is, please don't apply to only one program. When they ask me my personal experience, I tell them what I did truthfully. I also tell them, I have no idea how comes I got in, I really don't, but I did and am grateful but wouldn't recommend anyone only apply to one school, where they reject 91% of those who apply! That's a bit foolhardy. My thought process in doing that was a lot lol, but I wouldn't recommend it. Why? Because as a good mentor, I take the student's history into account, my knowledge of the process of applying, the stats for their programs, various things, and my own experience in advising. I don't just use myself as a measuring stick in a vacuum and ignore the risks, stats, and realities and tell them to just do what I did and hope for the best. My kids are brilliant, but brilliance isn't the only criteria, sometimes it is luck of the draw, so I don't doubt that many of them could apply to one program with a 91% rejection rate and get in....but I would probably be fired or the worst mentor ever if I simply used myself as the standard...I know I'm not the standard....as more people don't get in than those who do, so that larger number is the standard...so I have to be realistic about that, and not myopic, and give them more options, as my plan wasn't the best plan ever, although it panned out nicely for me.

 

I can tell them what I did, show them my application, but that doesn't guarantee at all that they will fare the same way, so I tell them to do the opposite of what I did, as that is the safer bet and there are more successes along that course of action versus my own. They're adults though, and if someone is hellbent on applying to just one...I can't stop them, and perhaps it will work out for them and I am thrilled for them if it does. At that point though I don't feel I was irresponsible, as I told them the truth and gave options besides just what I did. And no it is not considered hypocrisy for me to apply to one program and then tell others not to, it would only be hypocrisy if I lied about how many I applied to or pretended I applied to many and told others to do the same, when in reality I did no such thing.

 

Yes...."don't try this at home" exists for a reason as well as "Do as I say, not as I do."

Edited July 23, 2013 by MissBee

[MissBee]

The strict definition of hypocrisy aside... you would not find yourself wanting to roll your eyes at someone preaching the evils of stealing whilst wearing a stolen mink coat, and a plethora of stolen diamond jewelry?

 

Of course, especially in that situation, as it is by nature comical lol .

 

However, in the case of someone who is no longer in an affair, who is now married to their AP, it is not the same as giving back your stolen husband to show that you don't believe in affairs lol.

 

Again though, advocating others not do as you do, because it was a hard journey or foolhardy, is not hypocritical. Even if it were, it doesn't change the advice. A crackhead should not advise their child to also do crack, just because they're an addict....it's precisely because they are one, and maybe it's too late for them to stop now, and they can't stop, but it doesn't mean their struggles can't help someone else avoid it.

 

I suppose I do not see the black and white, especially in the case of you wanting to help someone else, that the only way to help is to allow them to do what you did, and if you say, well while I did it or am doing it it's not great, that's some kind of shameful, hypocrisy or useless advice.

[MissBee]

I understand why the OW who got their man would be so adamant that affairs are this wonderful thing, and why they are unrepentant, and seemingly smug. I really do. To say otherwise, would be a slap in their own face, would make their relationship seem less than, taken, not given freely. I can only think of 4 or 5 on this board, with one being suspect, that snagged their MM, and I'm not talking about the ongoing, long term affairs, as they haven't snagged anyone. I could really care less if you were an OW and the MM left for you, go forth and prosper, be happy, live in bliss, and I hope he's all you dreamed he'd be. Where I do take issue, is that small group (and it is small) who when OW come to these boards, clearly in pain, in some f'd up situations, wanting out, wanting answers, there are some that automatically take the story to THEM, how, that NEVER happened in their affair, how their MM never treated them like that, how he NEVER disrespected them. So sending the message to these broken women, that they obviously didn't do something right, didn't wait long enough, didn't love him hard enough, didn't stroke his ego lovingly enough, no, they weren't enough clearly, as they shouldn't be so miserable, and their beloved MM is still with that awful, BS. When the real answers they seek are brushed to the side, with a good luck, and I hope you find peace. If you're happy, be happy, you should be, but to minimize someone else, cause they seemingly fell short with the cheating MM, evidenced by his still being married, and treating the OW as a piece of meat, is wrong.

 

Yes, yes and yes.

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

I find the inability to realize when one's situation is in fact not the standard, puzzling. As if admitting you had an outcome not the norm threatens or changes your reality. Like what I said about my grad school application experience, those who do not get into the program, i.e. 91% of applicants, is the standard. That is the NORM I keep in mind in advising. My own outcome fell in the 9% range...and I am sure others are capable of it as well, and it isn't for me to make any proclamation that "You WON'T get in" definitively. I can't control that nor would I ever say that carte blanche someone will or won't get in. I don't know if they will or won't without question, although I can guess about chances. What I do is measure myself against the norm and my advice against the norm as well as the specific case they present to me of their gpa, school stats, program stats, department stats, funding stats etc. That gives a better picture of what is most likely. Likewise, in my advising OW, I look at what they come to LS saying about their situation and give my advice based on what seems most likely based on that...I may or may not be right. But as I said, esp those who have come to LS to discuss their situation, and even on the OW-only boards I've read, the ratio seems to be more people don't get the "success" they want.....usually you can count the successes and name them because they stand out, while those without success are as numerous like grains of sand.

 

In light of that I don't see why someone, even in the successful percentile, wouldn't feel more cautious, instead of barging into threads to give "hope" in a dismal situation or tell everyone how wonderful things were for them or how it wasn't like that for them. That seems more for them than the OP. If it wasn't like that for you...then clearly you cannot relate, and perhaps other members who it was like that for, will find more resonance with these posters and perhaps their outcome then will be more similar to that person's experience.

[Silly_Girl]

Are people not allowed to embrace their choices but still advocate against them as a whole?

 

Of course. But then must also accept that others may also embrace those same choices. Despite advice to the contrary.

[HappyAtLast]

It's an ability to see your situation, as well as assess a bigger picture. I think it is prudent not to use yourself as a measuring stick without understanding a larger picture.

 

Although I think the example of "You will fail" is made up, in that, every story which comes here is a specific story, and people tend to advise based on what the OP presents, and unless we have a specific thread to point to where a "successful" person actually told someone else this, then, we're just using a made-up point as an illustration, which is fine, but not necessarily accurate.

 

I am a mentor and grad student for example, when I was applying to graduate programs I applied to one program, where the acceptance rate is 9%...they only accept 9% of the people who apply. My advice to my mentees is, please don't apply to only one program. When they ask me my personal experience, I tell them what I did truthfully. I also tell them, I have no idea how comes I got in, I really don't, but I did and am grateful but wouldn't recommend anyone only apply to one school, where they reject 91% of those who apply! That's a bit foolhardy. My thought process in doing that was a lot lol, but I wouldn't recommend it. Why? Because as a good mentor, I take the student's history into account, my knowledge of the process of applying, the stats for their programs, various things, and my own experience in advising. I don't just use myself as a measuring stick in a vacuum and ignore the risks, stats, and realities and tell them to just do what I did and hope for the best. My kids are brilliant, but brilliance isn't the only criteria, sometimes it is luck of the draw, so I don't doubt that many of them could apply to one program with a 91% rejection rate and get in....but I would probably be fired or the worst mentor ever if I simply used myself as the standard...I know I'm not the standard....as more people don't get in than those who do, so that larger number is the standard...so I have to be realistic about that, and not myopic, and give them more options, as my plan wasn't the best plan ever, although it panned out nicely for me.

 

I can tell them what I did, show them my application, but that doesn't guarantee at all that they will fare the same way, so I tell them to do the opposite of what I did, as that is the safer bet and there are more successes along that course of action versus my own. They're adults though, and if someone is hellbent on applying to just one...I can't stop them, and perhaps it will work out for them and I am thrilled for them if it does. At that point though I don't feel I was irresponsible, as I told them the truth and gave options besides just what I did. And no it is not considered hypocrisy for me to apply to one program and then tell others not to, it would only be hypocrisy if I lied about how many I applied to or pretended I applied to many and told others to do the same, when in reality I did no such thing.

 

Yes...."don't try this at home" exists for a reason as well as "Do as I say, not as I do."

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The difference here though, in your example is that you are a mentor. Your opinion was asked for and most likely valued. Not going to argue semantics with you. The "don't try this at home" and the "do as I say not as I do" really, in my very humble opinion, cannot be applied here as it appears to me that this particular poster, and I say this with no malice, is not particularly respected by the very folks that she is trying to help on here. That said, those message appear to be falling on deaf ears.

 

Regardless, everyone should carry on as they wish. The above is just my humble opinion.

[Silly_Girl]

Geez! Are people no longer allowed to change their minds about issues? It's like a person used to smoke, but has since quit and is living a much healthier life and now advocates against smoking... but nope! That's being hypocritical!

 

Depends. If the ex-smoker condemns the current smoker and is disparaging or insulting etc, that's hypocritical - in my view.

 

If the ex-smoker explains and shows concern and is open about their motives etc, but accepts the current smoker's choice, I'd personally not call that hypocritical.

[HappyAtLast]

Bwahahahahahaha Hope the little bugger pulls through.

 

The poor little thing was egg-bound. I believe that she will be ok.

[MissBee]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The difference here though, in your example is that you are a mentor. Your opinion was asked for and most likely valued. Not going to argue semantics with you. The "don't try this at home" and the "do as I say not as I do" really, in my very humble opinion, cannot be applied here as it appears to me that this particular poster, and I say this with no malice, is not particularly respected by the very folks that she is trying to help on here. That said, those message appear to be falling on deaf ears.

 

Regardless, everyone should carry on as they wish. The above is just my humble opinion.

 

When people come on forums, they're generally asking for opinions. I don't imagine anyone here goes canvassing the streets about affairs or knocking on doors to ask who's in affair and then tells them to leave lol.

 

But indeed, we all say our pieces here, and people ultimately do as they wish, based on if our advice resonates or not.

Edited July 23, 2013 by MissBee

[HopingAgain]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The difference here though, in your example is that you are a mentor. Your opinion was asked for and most likely valued. Not going to argue semantics with you. The "don't try this at home" and the "do as I say not as I do" really, in my very humble opinion, cannot be applied here as it appears to me that this particular poster, and I say this with no malice, is not particularly respected by the very folks that she is trying to help on here. That said, those message appear to be falling on deaf ears.

 

Regardless, everyone should carry on as they wish. The above is just my humble opinion.

 

This particular poster, is doing the same as everyone else on here, sharing from her experiences and POV. Some will like it, some will not, that is life. But the fact that my words will fall on some deaf ears does not mean that noone else will sit up and take notice.

[HopingAgain]

I don't doubt your sincerity at all. I also have pretty strong beliefs regarding affairs, including that I felt they were wrong WHILE I was actually engaged in one.

 

If I may ask, specifically what is the outcome from others that you desire as you post?

 

I must step away for a bit, I have agreed to perform surgery on a parrot.

 

I don't really have any one particular outcome to hope for in mind, as I post I am sharing my opinions and experiences. I will say that as different posters work through their various situations here, hopefully their end goal will be to be honest with themselves, others, and hold true to their values.

[So happy together]

I'm positive I know what I deserve. Talk to me again when your long distance MM gets a divorce.

 

OMG. How many times have I stated he is on the tail end of the D? Jesus. I was being kind. I'm sorry, I'm having a difficult time knowing who everyone is since there were so many bans last month... as well as this morning. I don't know your story very well, but I'm sorry you are bitter. I guess you are pissed that I am happy. Duly noted.

Edited July 23, 2013 by So happy together

[HappyAtLast]

Sorry, I thought you were being funny, didn't realize it was a true medical emergency. I've just never seen the sentence " I've been asked to preform surgery on a parrot." Okay, it's still funny!

 

Well, it is a bit funny in that I am not a vet but a retired "people surgeon". That said, help was needed and I could not say no. In that light, though, a few positive thoughts for the little one may be helpful to make up what I lack in parrot skill!!

[HappyAtLast]

I don't really have any one particular outcome to hope for in mind, as I post I am sharing my opinions and experiences. I will say that as different posters work through their various situations here, hopefully their end goal will be to be honest with themselves, others, and hold true to their values.

 

Thank you for the honest answer. I can honestly say that I was not holding true to my values when I was having an affair. I knew what they were, I just chose to disregard them.

 

I dare say that could possibly be the same for some folks around these parts, no?

 

edited to add: I guess what I am really asking you is if YOU would have changed your behavior had someone shared their post affair wisdom with you at the time?

Edited July 23, 2013 by HappyAtLast

[2sure]

OMG. How many times have I stated he is on the tail end of the D? Jesus. I was being kind. I'm sorry, I'm having a difficult time knowing who everyone is since there were so many bans last month... as well as this morning. I don't know your story very well, but I'm sorry you are bitter. I guess you are pissed that I am happy. Duly noted.

 

 

 

Why on earth would your happiness make me angry? Even if I were bitter that just makes zero sense. Are you in the right thread? I seriously cannot decipher what you are saying here. You have posted here many many times that your affair is long distance and your MM is not divorced. It's as though you disagree just to disagree. But call others bitter?

 

I get it. It's because he isnt divorced yet. Don't be so hard on yourself. They all say that.

[WakingUp]

Well, it is a bit funny in that I am not a vet but a retired "people surgeon". That said, help was needed and I could not say no. In that light, though, a few positive thoughts for the little one may be helpful to make up what I lack in parrot skill!!

 

As this thread appears to have gone completely off topic and is submerged in details....

 

I have to ask, did you have to cut the parrot open? What kind of parrot was it?

 

I am a bird lover as well as an OW.

[HopingAgain]

Thank you for the honest answer. I can honestly say that I was not holding true to my values when I was having an affair. I knew what they were, I just chose to disregard them.

 

I dare say that could possibly be the same for some folks around these parts, no?

 

edited to add: I guess what I am really asking you is if YOU would have changed your behavior had someone shared their post affair wisdom with you at the time?

 

You know, I probably really would have considered it a little more and maybe it would not have been as long, drawn out, and painful as it was for all involved. Looking at the person I was then, mid 20's, fresh from the hurt of a marriage where I was a BS and married to an alcoholic, and head over heels in love with my then AP...I can't say for CERTAIN that I would have done too much differently. But then again, I had noone to talk to IRL or online at that time that I felt could relate to what I was experiencing. My common sense answer would be, if I'd had someone to shake me and say hey, what are you doing...I would have stopped justifying the affair to myself at that time because my BS did XYZ to me first, or because I just couldn't help falling in love. I would have owned up to my choices and done more to make amends at that time for sure.