Do you think MM/MW would cheat on you if you were in the same boat as the BS?

July 24, 2013

To me it's not like that.

I have a relationship with my boss. Albeit non-romantic.

If he doesn't lie to me but lies to his wife then he and I still share an honest relationship.

If he lies to his wife and says he's sacked me but hasn't, and doesn't lie to me, he and I still share an honest relationship.

That's not at all what Coco was saying.

She claimed that many affairs aren't based on deceit aimed at the BS (re-read the post I'd quoted from originally).

I'd also disagree with your premise. If I'm friends with someone...and I witness them lying to another friend or to their spouse...I would lose a lot of trust and faith in my friendship with them. If they can and will lie to someone else that they're close to, I'd have a great deal of difficulty accepting that they're 100% honest with ME.

July 24, 2013

I have no crystal ball, which was why I framed my post using "I'm sure" and "likely", etc. it's the best I can do without a TARDIS. I responded to the question in good faith. What kind of response would you have preferred, since you find that inadequate?

I'm not fishing for an "adequate" response.

I'm simply pointing out to you something that you've undoubtedly observed for yourself already in your years on this board, and yet failed to recognize might well apply in your own situation.

I honestly doubt you'd respond the way that you've outlined. The only people I've personally witnessed who have responded in that fashion hadn't emotionally invested that deeply into the relationship that was betrayed...and you don't strike me as someone who would maintain a shallow relationship.

July 24, 2013

Again, you are speaking for everyone else as if it is a fact. This may be true for you but this is not true for all.

How on earth does one research and analyze to come to the conclusion that one who has been in an affair is terrified of being cheated on more than ANYONE else? Where is the science that is supporting your conclusion?

Oh god. Please. Don't ask anyone to produce "statistics". You know how off they are.

July 24, 2013

That's not at all what Coco was saying.

She claimed that many affairs aren't based on deceit aimed at the BS (re-read the post I'd quoted from originally).

No, that is not what I claimed either. Perhaps you also need to retread what I posted?

I'd also disagree with your premise. If I'm friends with someone...and I witness them lying to another friend or to their spouse...I would lose a lot of trust and faith in my friendship with them. If they can and will lie to someone else that they're close to, I'd have a great deal of difficulty accepting that they're 100% honest with ME.

Your henceforth unwillingness to trust them does not render the very basis of your R with them to have been founded on deceit. On naïveté, perhaps - since you believed they were " different" (morally) to how they in fact are, but unless they misrepresented themselves to you, claiming never to be dishonest with anyone in any situation, then your perception of them was based on you own (incorrect) assumption rather than on wilful deception on their part. So SG's point stands.

July 24, 2013

LMAO seriously? You're too funny.

No matter how you paint it an affair takes prolonged deceit to carry out.

absolutely false.

July 24, 2013

I'm not fishing for an "adequate" response.

I'm simply pointing out to you something that you've undoubtedly observed for yourself already in your years on this board, and yet failed to recognize might well apply in your own situation.

I honestly doubt you'd respond the way that you've outlined. The only people I've personally witnessed who have responded in that fashion hadn't emotionally invested that deeply into the relationship that was betrayed...and you don't strike me as someone who would maintain a shallow relationship.

So, you're claiming you're not responding to my response in context, but are attempting to thread jack into off-topic territory?

July 24, 2013

If I'm friends with someone...and I witness them lying to another friend or to their spouse...I would lose a lot of trust and faith in my friendship with them. If they can and will lie to someone else that they're close to, I'd have a great deal of difficulty accepting that they're 100% honest with ME.

But that doesn't mean their relationship with you is not honest.

It's an old argument that gets battered around this board and it's my (simple) view that the AP can have an honest relationship with someone who can lie.

July 24, 2013

So, you're claiming you're not responding to my response in context, but are attempting to thread jack into off-topic territory?

Valiant attempt. Report my posts if you feel they're in violation of the TOS.

I simply replied to the posts I saw...and nothing more.

July 24, 2013

But that doesn't mean their relationship with you is not honest.

It's an old argument that gets battered around this board and it's my (simple) view that the AP can have an honest relationship with someone who can lie.

<hears for scoffing sound in distance...>

And I can understand why you would hold that view, although I personally would not/do not.

July 24, 2013

I realize that what I am saying is not being received kindly by many who are AP turned wives or significant others, It's not the most cheerful message to hear, especially when the rose colored glasses of your own romances have not yet come off, thus the accusations of not being in a position to understand, and then when it was revealed I was married to my AP, now a hypocrite. I get it. I do. But it doesn't change the reality of what I'm saying.

My own relationship did not come about without personal consequences, and consequences to others, and that is what I've come to regret, the circumstances which it came about, not the relationship itself. Alexandria's analogy summed it up very nicely. I get the feeling that those of you who quoted me with angry or disdainful responses see my abandonment of being "pro affair" as some sort of betrayal to the "affair club." I gladly turned in my card a long time ago, unfortunately lingering consequences still remain. I also understand the love you all feel for your now husbands and partners, why in the world wouldn't I? When you've gone through so much in an affair and finally you and your partner get to be together...of course you are ecstatic! I love my husband dearly, even after EVERYTHING we have gone through at this point.

But in the interest of preserving that love and growing, lessons need to be learned, and truths about the steps that you took to get there acknowledged. It's not that I got what I wanted by being in an affair, and then stepped away and started pointing the finger at other affairs...I just came full circle a long time ago and now see how not being accountable or remorseful for hurting others and engaging in dishonorable behavior plants a negative seed in the soil of your relationship. Sometimes it takes a while to take root, but unless plucked up, that seed will grow.

I haven't read past this but what I have read doesn't come across as angry or that they've taken your OP unkindly. They're responding. I think this is actually a really good discussion to be fair.

July 24, 2013

That's not at all what Coco was saying.

She claimed that many affairs aren't based on deceit aimed at the BS (re-read the post I'd quoted from originally).

I'd also disagree with your premise. If I'm friends with someone...and I witness them lying to another friend or to their spouse...I would lose a lot of trust and faith in my friendship with them. If they can and will lie to someone else that they're close to, I'd have a great deal of difficulty accepting that they're 100% honest with ME.

I completely agree with this. Watching someone who is willing to lie and deceive his family is like watching someone willing to embezzle from business partner. He/She has an evil side that is willing to stoop real low when needed. I cannot trust that. A friend of mine once said "Just because she does this to others, does not mean she will do it to me". I thought how arrogant that sounded.

There are warnings that say "watch how people treat others, because they wll someday do the same to you" and "When someone shows you who they are, believe it"!!! But arrogant people never believe that since their specialness exempts them from this.

It's like two thieves who become buddies and think, we will steal from other people, but never from each other. Until.....one thieve convinces himself one day the other thief had done something to deserve being stolen from.

July 24, 2013

Because of the nature of an affair. Because the level of deceit associated with an affair. It takes a certain type of person to be able to do this to another human being. I question someone's morals in my mind when I hear they are capable of such long and profound deceit on another.

I think those in LTA's are particularly cruel. I hear some people talk about being in an affair for years. I wonder what type of person can go home for YEARS, look his wife and kids in the eye day in and day out and keep up the pretense. I cannot keep up pretense at all. It does take a special kind of person to be able to do that.

I respect a person much more(though I do not agree with affairs) who begins an affair, cannot keep up with lying,manipulating and gas lighting because it does something to their very soul. So they tell the spouse and leave the marriage quickly. Instead of playing games behind their back.

July 24, 2013

I understand why the OW who got their man would be so adamant that affairs are this wonderful thing, and why they are unrepentant, and seemingly smug. I really do. To say otherwise, would be a slap in their own face, would make their relationship seem less than, taken, not given freely. I can only think of 4 or 5 on this board, with one being suspect, that snagged their MM, and I'm not talking about the ongoing, long term affairs, as they haven't snagged anyone. I could really care less if you were an OW and the MM left for you, go forth and prosper, be happy, live in bliss, and I hope he's all you dreamed he'd be. Where I do take issue, is that small group (and it is small) who when OW come to these boards, clearly in pain, in some f'd up situations, wanting out, wanting answers, there are some that automatically take the story to THEM, how, that NEVER happened in their affair, how their MM never treated them like that, how he NEVER disrespected them. So sending the message to these broken women, that they obviously didn't do something right, didn't wait long enough, didn't love him hard enough, didn't stroke his ego lovingly enough, no, they weren't enough clearly, as they shouldn't be so miserable, and their beloved MM is still with that awful, BS. When the real answers they seek are brushed to the side, with a good luck, and I hope you find peace. If you're happy, be happy, you should be, but to minimize someone else, cause they seemingly fell short with the cheating MM, evidenced by his still being married, and treating the OW as a piece of meat, is wrong.

Not sure if I'm in this grouping or not WN but I do know I've responded with how my A was different. I don't recall ever saying it was different to negate what the other poster was going through. I say it often to show strength. Things were very different in my A compared to most others and I think some of it had to do with us but more had to do with me. DMM never lied to me but if I hadn't ended the A he would have never been uncomfortable enough to make a choice. He would have been one of the MM who sit happily eating cake but I didn't let him. I started losing myself and ended it. That has never been meant to belittle someone else and I hope it's not been taken that way.

Sorry if that's just my paranoia jumping in. I'm not trying to t/j.

July 24, 2013

Again, you are speaking for everyone else as if it is a fact. This may be true for you but this is not true for all.

How on earth does one research and analyze to come to the conclusion that one who has been in an affair is terrified of being cheated on more than ANYONE else? Where is the science that is supporting your conclusion?

I agree. I probably trust DMM more than anyone I've been with in the last 10 or so years. Because of what we went through in and after the A, not to mention the months of counselling we both did have helped. I have never in my life said I wouldn't be cheated on and I never will. I do know I'm probably in a better situation and better prepared now than I have ever been.

July 24, 2013

I'm loving this discussion. Away for a day and boom! The thread explodes.

I think most people are right! I know...sounds like a non-position but it is true..as long as we respond to OPs based on the circumstances of their A. I personally lean towards seeing As as B.A.D. I firmly believe that there can be no honesty in an A. Eventually the MP will have to lie to the BS and AP...in most cases. But I know for a fact that not all As will end in heartbreak for the parties involved. It depends on too many factors.

Whether we want to accept it or not...some Affairs are "successful" in that the MP and AP genuinely love and belong together. An example is Charles and Camilla. However in most of these cases, the parties involved tend to keep the story of "how they met" to themselves. There is a stigma attached to being in an A whether or not love was involved. There is a stigma about people who have ever been involved in an A that ranges from believing they are mentally unstable to just plain evil. So it shouldn't be surprising that we get to hear from very few "happy" people.

As for the happy fOWs (now Ws), they are bound to know more couples whose M started as an A. Reason? Simple really. People in As trust someone who has ever had one to understand and so they confide in them. They generally don't expect any help from people who have never been there...and they are usually right.

The OM/OW forum is one of the best things that ever happened to me. Here we are able to talk freely and hear from all parties in an A. The BS, WS and other APs. When I was in my A, I never had anyone to talk to who I could trust to give me practical advise. It was either BWs who saw in me their chance to express their long held anger at the OW in their situation. Or it was people who had never been affected by an A and therefore applied the standard "Thou shalt not..." with no additional reasoning. Then there were the bitter fOWs. Those are probably the worst of the lot because they are 100% sure that what their xMM did to them is what your MM and ALL other men in the world will eventually do to you.

Here, most people are very understanding. They really do try to see things from the other's POV. Everybody's views actually help an OP figure out answers to their questions. Even the harsh ones...and the ones which warn the OP about incoming attacks...and the ones from long term posters who lambast someone for over-skewing the facts and/or presenting a one size fits all solution. It's amazing. Great discussion!!!

Now let's get back on topic: the original question is skewed towards one answer. YES. Yes, if I was M to MM and I was ...fill in the blanks that make him "unhappy" at home...and I had the same way of relating to him like the BW....Yes, he would cheat. Why not? The circumstances would be exactly the same, right? The question is strange.

Threelaurels, is this discussion what you were expecting when you posed your question? What do you mean by "in the same boat"?

July 24, 2013

and I had the same way of relating to him like the BW....Yes, he would cheat. Why not? The circumstances would be exactly the same, right? The question is strange.

Threelaurels, is this discussion what you were expecting when you posed your question? What do you mean by "in the same boat"?

I think it does not matter if you had the same way of relating than an ex or not. Different people,different problems. If that were true, cheaters would only cheat under ceratin curcumstances. But some people seek perfection and a fairy tale and think it is up to a "partner" to keep them happy,

Example, my sister cannot stay faithful. She is the sweeyest ,nicest woman many men can meet and when they do meet her, they think they have hit the jackpot!

Husband # 1-Did not make enough money. The fact he was in grad school did not matter. He was also not good looking enough for her. So she married #2(with whom she was having an affair). Well,

#2 had loads of money and she lived the high life, but he was older and boring. So she had an affair with her karate instructor, then with a martial arts British "extreme fighter". But these guys ere not the settling down types. So she headed over to husband

#3. Who thought he was God's gift to women. But after all his and probably, her cheating, they had a very vilotile relationship and broke up. So she then began to search for security again.

#4 Had loads of money and after ruining her credit with #3,she was now living in the lap of luxury again. But again, his fault was he was boring. So she began an online affair with an old MM boyfriend and left

#4. After taking a boatload of money for a 2 year marriage. More than the average person earns in 10-15 years. She still bad mouthed a man who was probably the kindest,most loving, loyal husband she could have wished for.

#5 now was supposedly the only man she had ever loved. He was from our culture,so she now blamed all her failed marriages on the fact she married outside culture and there was nothing in common.

Well no more than 6 months after the wedding, her rose colored glasses were coming off. Since she can spend money faster than she can get it,she began to realize #5 was not capable of bringing home as much "bacon" like #2 and #4 could. . So her resentment grew. She wanted a divorce. But every family member had tried to talk her out of it and I think she would be too humiliated if she did it so soon.So close to 2 years later, you can see the resentment when she looks at him.

Husband #5 has already been hospitalized for anxiety due to her coming home at all hours.

My other sister had been at a party recently where one of my sister's ex-boyfriends is still pinning for her even though he is now married. He had the nerve to tell my other sister ,had he been the one cheater sister married initially. She would have only married 1 time, because he would be the perfect husband. We both thought it was denial and arrogance on his part. He cannot see who she is, or that she can never be satisfied. He blames her ex-husbands for the failures.

Funny that every single husband she has, also blames the ex for the failures. Because she is such a damsel,so sweet,so caring. It can never be her fault that the marriages end badly,right?

July 24, 2013

I completely agree with this. Watching someone who is willing to lie and deceive his family is like watching someone willing to embezzle from business partner. He/She has an evil side that is willing to stoop real low when needed. I cannot trust that. A friend of mine once said "Just because she does this to others, does not mean she will do it to me". I thought how arrogant that sounded.

There are warnings that say "watch how people treat others, because they wll someday do the same to you" and "When someone shows you who they are, believe it"!!! But arrogant people never believe that since their specialness exempts them from this.

It's like two thieves who become buddies and think, we will steal from other people, but never from each other. Until.....one thieve convinces himself one day the other thief had done something to deserve being stolen from.

That makes definite sense. Following that line of logic a BS would be a fool to reconcile with a WS. Not only are you seeing how they will treat others you see exactly how they will treat you. Along the lines of, if they will do it once they will do it again.

July 24, 2013

I think it does not matter if you had the same way of relating than an ex or not. Different people,different problems. If that were true, cheaters would only cheat under ceratin curcumstances. But some people seek perfection and a fairy tale and think it is up to a "partner" to keep them happy,

Example, my sister cannot stay faithful. She is the sweeyest ,nicest woman many men can meet and when they do meet her, they think they have hit the jackpot!

Husband # 1-Did not make enough money. The fact he was in grad school did not matter. He was also not good looking enough for her. So she married #2(with whom she was having an affair). Well,

#2 had loads of money and she lived the high life, but he was older and boring. So she had an affair with her karate instructor, then with a martial arts British "extreme fighter". But these guys ere not the settling down types. So she headed over to husband

#3. Who thought he was God's gift to women. But after all his and probably, her cheating, they had a very vilotile relationship and broke up. So she then began to search for security again.

#4 Had loads of money and after ruining her credit with #3,she was now living in the lap of luxury again. But again, his fault was he was boring. So she began an online affair with an old MM boyfriend and left

#4. After taking a boatload of money for a 2 year marriage. More than the average person earns in 10-15 years. She still bad mouthed a man who was probably the kindest,most loving, loyal husband she could have wished for.

#5 now was supposedly the only man she had ever loved. He was from our culture,so she now blamed all her failed marriages on the fact she married outside culture and there was nothing in common.

Well no more than 6 months after the wedding, her rose colored glasses were coming off. Since she can spend money faster than she can get it,she began to realize #5 was not capable of bringing home as much "bacon" like #2 and #4 could. . So her resentment grew. She wanted a divorce. But every family member had tried to talk her out of it and I think she would be too humiliated if she did it so soon.So close to 2 years later, you can see the resentment when she looks at him.

Husband #5 has already been hospitalized for anxiety due to her coming home at all hours.

My other sister had been at a party recently where one of my sister's ex-boyfriends is still pinning for her even though he is now married. He had the nerve to tell my other sister ,had he been the one cheater sister married initially. She would have only married 1 time, because he would be the perfect husband. We both thought it was denial and arrogance on his part. He cannot see who she is, or that she can never be satisfied. He blames her ex-husbands for the failures.

Funny that every single husband she has, also blames the ex for the failures. Because she is such a damsel,so sweet,so caring. It can never be her fault that the marriages end badly,right?

See? That's exactly why I think the question was weird. It assumed the problem was the BS...didn't it? You're describing a situation with a serial cheater. Now in a case like that, nothing matters.

July 24, 2013

That makes definite sense. Following that line of logic a BS would be a fool to reconcile with a WS. Not only are you seeing how they will treat others you see exactly how they will treat you. Along the lines of, if they will do it once they will do it again.

I agree with this, I think the logic is in fact exactly the same or the same rules apply, in terms of assessing behavior. I think everyone should assess a person in as much totality as they can and then decide to invest in them after weighing what they have observed.

The only point of difference in A vs. reconciliation is investment, and why each person, BS/AP, is willing to go there after witnessing or experiencing infidelity.

From a BS standpoint, it's a reinvestment, as they already married this person, often unaware they would have done this and when they married them (if it wasn't an A turned M) they hadn't witnessed any of those things before, so have an honest/trustworthy/loving reference point to refer back to. Coupled with years of a previously existing relationship, in which they are already on the sailed ship with this person, so to speak. I understand how if you were married 15 years, and your spouse loved you, you didn't know them to be a cheater before, and they had a 5 month affair, how you could weigh it and decide to reinvest/reconcile. At this new point though, things change, you have new information you didn't have before. It's a different relationship, in which you now KNOW for sure what they are capable of, from experience, and not just the theoretical possibility that people can cheat...and this time, your decision to reconcile is with that in mind.

From the AP standpoint, going into a relationship with a married person who is cheating, you have the privilege/foresight, of knowing from the start about their indiscretion, unless they pretended not to be married and lied. You are not on the ship yet, it hasn't sailed, you still have time to decide to take this cruise or not, so to speak. There is logically no binding reason, besides wanting to pursue feelings, why an AP would feel obligated to date a married person. A BS has already invested, so it is more understandable why they would go down with the sinking ship, but if you're at the port and are observing it teetering and tottering, your decision to climb aboard, was made with that in mind, foolishly or smartly. You embark upon the relationship knowing the score and agreeing to be complicit and to accept that "flaw." You can choose what it means for you. Some APs, myself included, just didn't buy that it was for sure a one time deal, and the very nature of the relationship fostered our cynicism about this person. I know many OW who, while they are enjoying the A, because of the nature of the relationship, they are very uncertain about wanting to ever be with their AP in an open relationship for fear of them repeating their current behavior. for some, it doesn't actually become a concern until they do get a chance to be with them in the open, then their paranoia is amped up more than normal, based on what they know already about their SO.

A BS who is unaware of an affair, has a false peace of mind, but peace of mind nonetheless about trusting their spouse. After an A, that changes. APs sometimes never are afforded that kind of peace of mind, because from day one they know the MP goes home to their spouse, know they're maintaining a double life, and for many, that naturally fosters cynicism.

In the end though: in terms of reconciling or transition from A to open, both people decide to take a chance on this person with the info they know.The difference is one is a reinvestment often referring to a point where it wasn't like that, the other is starting off in a weird situation, where you met them in the midst of a not so shining moment, and hope it can transition to something better. The BS can't just blindly trust again or reset to before the affair, but a new trust has to be built and a new relationship with lots of work. APs shouldn't either, although it seems that for some, more so than BSs whose worlds were rocked, so really had no choice but to really rebuild, because their world wasn't ambushed, and they felt transparency existed, and they weren't being lied to, some don't think any steps need to be taken to fortify the relationship and that simply the WS changing from BS to them will be all that matters. I don't think that's wise personally.

Just like a BS has to come face to face with their spouses ugly side...their capability to lie and deceive, and address it head on if they want to reconcile, I think APs should take the same approach, i.e. address their bf/gf's infidelity and ugly side, which they have also witnessed and not just say "well they didn't do it to me and I know they would never." I think that's naive, and you have the advantage, unlike the BS, of seeing the ugly upfront, so it's no one's fault but your own if it repeats because you didn't address it. At least a BS who had thought the spouse faithful until dday could say, they had no clue of this capacity, but an OW turned wife saying they had no clue would raise eyebrows, as they had EVERY clue. I think reconciliations and transitioning only works when BS/AP/WS confront that ugly head on and say this was a problem, we need to figure out why and work through it, instead of rationalize it away, downplay it, make themselves an exception, assume it was a one time thing, blame the BS/the dog/ the job etc.

Edited July 24, 2013 by MissBee

July 24, 2013

Totally agree with Missbee's assessment above. Thought I'd add a bit to it as well.

The WS who works to reconcile with a BS ends up seeing the negatives to their choices to lie and deceive. They witness first hand the damage they've done, they spend a lot of time and effort working to rebuild the trust they shattered through these actions, and they spend a good bit of time looking back at what they've done with an eye to changing the future.

In short, they're pretty much forced to suffer some consequences for the negative behavior, and end up learning some valuable life-lessons to help them to learn not to repeat that behavior.

A WS in an affair...or one who ends the marriage and moves on to a relationship with their former affair partner...doesn't learn this lesson. In fact, they BENEFIT from this behavior. It teaches them that it's an effective tool to add to their arsenal.

In short...why SHOULDN'T they do it again?

Some key differences to consider, in my opinion.

July 24, 2013

MB - I agree but on the flip side. From an AP you see how they may treat one other person, for a BS you have seen how they will treat you specifically.

So the gamble is greater, on that front, on the BS side because they have already shown they will disrespect, lie and cheat towards you specifically. Now you have more time in position to glean other, counter, behavior to try and make the best decision.

On the front of the AP, while you will see that they did it to someone else, you are also going to look at the how you are treated directly. Same mental exercise.

Either way, what I am trying to point out, it is ultimately a leap of faith where one is hoping the poor behavior is the exception not the rule.

July 24, 2013

Totally agree with Missbee's assessment above. Thought I'd add a bit to it as well.

The WS who works to reconcile with a BS ends up seeing the negatives to their choices to lie and deceive. They witness first hand the damage they've done, they spend a lot of time and effort working to rebuild the trust they shattered through these actions, and they spend a good bit of time looking back at what they've done with an eye to changing the future.

In short, they're pretty much forced to suffer some consequences for the negative behavior, and end up learning some valuable life-lessons to help them to learn not to repeat that behavior.

A WS in an affair...or one who ends the marriage and moves on to a relationship with their former affair partner...doesn't learn this lesson. In fact, they BENEFIT from this behavior. It teaches them that it's an effective tool to add to their arsenal.

In short...why SHOULDN'T they do it again?

Some key differences to consider, in my opinion.

Except if they have children they will do similar to work on the relationship with the children as well as any continued relationship with the BS. Above behavior can still be done.

One doesn't need the other party front and center to address and work on the behavior. One can and should make behavior modification for themselves first and foremost.

July 24, 2013

That makes definite sense. Following that line of logic a BS would be a fool to reconcile with a WS. Not only are you seeing how they will treat others you see exactly how they will treat you. Along the lines of, if they will do it once they will do it again.

You may be right, they may do it again. Or the BS having been shown a moral person initially , and may think he has just strayed off his path and can get on that path again.

Have you ever watched the news and seen neighbors in disbelief that their neighbor who has never shown them anything but moral behavior and integrity? Those people have a difficult time believing he is even capable of such crime. Often even if the evidence is in their face. In the long run though, they may try to understand what happened and may have faith, though he strayed, he may follow the path of rightiousness again.

Now imagine in this same neighborhood one of the neighbors was allowed into the accused's life. So the accused felt safe enough with that neighbor(birds of a feather flock together) to show his bad side. To show he was capable of manipulating,lying and cheating. But you see, he always has a reason and excuse that his victim is somehow to blame for him having to do what he has done to them. That person now is watching the

'neighbor"get arrested.But unlike all the onlookers who are having a difficul time believing this person capable. That person knows and has known for a long time,what this person is capable of.

So who is more foolish or has less integrity. The neighbors who believed and were shown the good side of the man and having a hard time digesting the bad side. Or the one who was shown the bad side. But still went along with the program and thought,well as long as he does not do to me what he does to others,it is A-ok!!. And now blaming disbelieving neighbors for being stupid for not seeing through his charade.

It is much more difficult for someone who has been shown a good side of a person initially to believe when the bad comes out. For the one shown the bad initially. It amazes me the excuses they make to make his actions palatable.

First impressions are lasting. So to see a person show you lies,manipulation,cheating,using,gaslighting,immoral behavior from the get go and still make excuses for this person is way different from one who was shown the good side.

July 24, 2013

MB - I agree but on the flip side. From an AP you see how they may treat one other person, for a BS you have seen how they will treat you specifically.

So the gamble is greater, on that front, on the BS side because they have already shown they will disrespect, lie and cheat towards you specifically. Now you have more time in position to glean other, counter, behavior to try and make the best decision.

On the front of the AP, while you will see that they did it to someone else, you are also going to look at the how you are treated directly. Same mental exercise.

Either way, what I am trying to point out, it is ultimately a leap of faith where one is hoping the poor behavior is the exception not the rule.

I think the disrespect is greater towards the AP. For me to sit there and watch a friend lie to his business partner day to day and still think I am immune is arrogance. But they are also willing to show you their deceitful side because they feel safe enough to think you are not offended by it.

My friends are a reflection of me. And if I see someone being a backstabber and liar, especially to the one they live with, it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. #1, that they can be so disrespectful and manipulative. #2. Thinking they can do that in front of me and I have no problem with it.

It shown lack of integrity,respect and low character. To insult me further by taking me into his crap makes it worse. It says I know you have no morals. So you will not mind listening to me constantly lie or manipulate someone. !!! If I see someone doing something bad or disrespectful to someone else, I call them out! Right is right,wrong is wrong. What gives them the right to destroy and disrespect someone like that????

Martin Luther King has said "Judge a man by the content of his character". But I guess many do not adhere to that. They believe a man who shows low character to you,just trust you and loves you more than the one he backstabs.

At least, he tries to hide his bad character from his wife and kids since he probably understands, they may not be as accepting of their Bullcrap as someone who does not care about the content of character.

July 24, 2013

At the end of the day it comes down to the road we have walked and the one laid out before us. This is hypothesizing of the lesser of two evils/less ideals. Does it really matter?

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