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Do you think MM/MW would cheat on you if you were in the same boat as the BS?


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If the XAP and XWS have a relationship after the A, then I imagine they start out with the same promises and expectations of honesty as the rest of us. To assume that an XAP and XWS have any special immunity is, IMHO, not taking into account that the XBS and XWS also had these talks and promises at the start. There are a lot of things on my CV, but naivety, denial and hiding my head in the sand aren't some of them. I think that a relationship that starts in an A has as much chance of succeeding as any and as much chance of becoming a statistic to infidelity as any other, with one exception, the people in it know that the other may deal with problems by having an A, so might make them more suspicious.

 

Not necessarily more suspicious, though I imagine in some cases that would be so. In our case though, it makes us more careful, more focused on each other as well as our own needs, more aware of just how badly things can go wrong and more committed to communicating fully.

 

On the bolded - but that assumes they did. I know that no such conversations took place between my H and his xW. She shut them down instantly - "don't you trust me?" - when he tried to discuss "ground rules" for the R. Or, "don't be so bourgeois! Women have been oppressed by men all through history, I'm not signing up for that again" if he suggested monogamy. She kept all their letters, and left them here when she moved out. I've read them. He was so young, so naive, innocent little country boy in the hands of a "sophisticated" older city woman, she played him like a fiddle.

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If the XAP and XWS have a relationship after the A, then I imagine they start out with the same promises and expectations of honesty as the rest of us.

 

I imagine it's much more like a reconciling couple, than a "new" couple. There is already a R history. Promises have already been made in the past, dreams shared, souls fused. Promises have either been kept or broken, patterns established, roles assumed. It is not a new R. It is a R that has to transition from circumstances that constrained aspects, to choices about how to transact in future. Hurts, disappointments or heartaches, where they exist, have to be overcome and trust established where it was broken (or not built in the first place). Both parties have to invest and commit and do ARs work, just like a R couple, if they want their R to be sustained long term.

 

It's not as simple as swapping partners and expecting everything to be rosy.

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The "once a cheater, always a cheater" adage is far too simplified. Cheating occurs for many reasons. Some people cheat because their needs, whether emotional or physical, are not being met in a relationship. Some people's needs are being met, but they simply cheat because they want a little bit extra and think they won't be caught.

 

In many cases, cheating arises as a result of both the circumstances and the nature of the cheater themselves. Whether or not a person cheats ultimately comes down to something inside the cheater. People can be in unhappy relationships and not cheat. People can be in happy relationships and cheat. The difference between a cheater and a non-cheater is simply that a cheater chooses to cheat. External and internal motivators play a role, but it all falls back on a conscious decision.

 

Classical conditioning teaches us that behavior can be shaped by rewards and punishments. This logic has been replicated many, many times in experiments and has always had copious amounts of support. When we receive a reward for a behavior, we are more likely to repeat that behavior in the future. When we receive a punishment, we are less likely to do the same.

 

If a person is unhappy in a relationship, starting an affair can be a reward. Whether or not the reward is the positive feelings that emerge from the affair or the ability to escape the relationship depends on the situation. The resulting fallout from the affair is the punishment. When the punishment for cheating outweighs the reward, the person is less likely to cheat again in the future. When the reward outweighs the punishment, the person is more likely to cheat again in the future.

 

A person who leaves the BS for the AP can be seen as having received some sort of reward as a result of the cheating. They have presumably left what was an unhappy situation for them using the affair as an escape route. If the relationship with the AP deteriorates and the WS becomes unhappy, they are more likely to behave in the same way that they did before because they received a reward last time they did it. They escaped the unhappiness of the situation by cheating. When they want to escape again, they will cheat over other options because they are already predisposed to the idea that cheating leads to a reward.

 

A former AP and a former WS who maintain a relationship without cheating are either (a) content with the relationship and have no current internal or external motivators for cheating, or (b) the punishment for cheating outweighs the rewards. Keep in mind that the punishment for cheating varies depending on the circumstances. A person may perceive cheating on one partner to be a greater risk than cheating on another partner for various reasons.

 

Of course, most people don't calculate all of this as one would with a cost/benefit analysis, but it tends to happen on its own whether consciously or unconsciously. Whether or not people are capable of dealing with emotionally complex matters in a completely rational manner is also up for debate. My explanation of this process is very basic and obviously does not cover the complexity of most situations.

 

First, the same argument could be made for a BS and a WS who stay together. The ability to stay together, keep family, home and hearth is a reward to the WS for cheating. Because there is no significant consequences (monetarily, etc.) and because the pattern has already been established that they could cheat on this specific person, when things settle down again and when things get disconnected, there is a good likelihood they will seek out the same coping mechanisms. They have proven it already and if they have not addressed the whys will do it again.

 

What your argument is negating is outside of a reward/punishment stance is the person in question actually stepping out of the line of logic/coping mechanism and addressing the steps they took and making a concerted effort to change them. That regardless of the opposite sex partner, AP or BS or other partner, the WS addresses the most important pieces that are not controlled by others, by rewards, or by punishments. It addresses their desire for their actions and what they wanted to do in their lives.

 

Your scenario for the AP and WS doesn't work. One, there is always some external or internal potential motivator for cheating as that is within the individuals and will arise over time. And the idea that punishment can effect change. It may but in no type of training of any animal, human or otherwise, is the most effective way of changing behavior. It must be done through rewards and teaching the subject why this is the best course of action, and their desire to do make this decision to prove to be permanent. With humans, this cannot be truly effective if only controlled by outside sources and must be one done by the subject.

 

There is no way that our relationship hasn't already had moments of stresses that would not provide an opportunity to look to cheat if one of the two parties didn't so desire. And there is no level of controlling, punishment, etc. that the other one could effect that would stop the other party if their mind was set on it. It is by the independent will and desire of each party to make. Every day.

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I think mine would have. He's a serial cheater. I was his fifth affair. He said he frequently cheats because his wife isn't sexual (according to him, she only puts out 4-5x a YEAR). I'm a very sexual person who enjoys that closeness with someone else but I think once that dwindled down, he'd be out there looking for it again. Also, I think he's a narcissist who needs outside validation.

 

(WOW, what did I ever see in him?!)

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I think the question is a bit too broad to answer as phrased, so I'll unpick it a little.

 

Do I think our R would ever become like theirs (loveless, sexless, staying because of obligations, etc) - no, because the basic situation had always been different. He did not "rescue" me from an unhappy situation, we did not drift into a R, him taking me in because I had nowhere else to go, us living together for years, deciding to get M when the tax regime changed and maintaining our current lifestyle became I,possible as two separate people, I did not trick him into becoming a parent and then guilt-trip him into staying to provide a stable home for the kids, I am not terminally broken and he is not worried I will not be able to live alone, he is not bound to me by obligations (shared kids, jointly owned property, etc). OTC, we chose to get together, we chose to be together, we got M because we wanted to be together all the time, we stay together because every morning we choose to be together. We love each other, we desire each other, can't keep our hands off each other, do work things, fun things and serious things together, we do not live past each other in the same space, as they did. We are clearly a couple, as anyone can tell, unlike they were even in the early days, when their roommates would hit on him because they did not know they were "together" even though they all lived in the same house and should have been able to see.

 

Do I believe that, if something beyond our control happened, and we were unable to have the R we have now, that he / I might need sex elsewhere? Who knows, it's possible I guess. We are both highly sexual, and so if that was denied us with each other, we may need another outlet. It may be solo, but who knows? I don't have a crystal ball.

 

Do I believe that, if he / I needed sex elsewhere, he / I would go about getting it dishonestly? No, we have a very open R. We tell each other what we want and need. I am very direct, and he has become so. He had tried telling her, but got ignored, for decades, so eventually stopped trying. He has reverted to his natural way of being, before she conditioned him out of it. It feels natural and comfortable for both of us.

 

Would I try to prevent him of he wanted to "cheat"? Of course not! He's free to do what he wants. We are together because we choose to be, not because of obligation or fear.

 

Would he choose to remain with me - only as long as it was what we both wanted, and it worked for both of us. If the R was no longer what we wanted or needed, we'd move on. We've seen how much damage unloving, sexless, obligatory Rs can do. We love each other far too much to do that to each other.

 

I could have written this.

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Do you think your MM/MW would cheat on you if your relationship was in the same boat as their relationship with the BS is (i.e. sexless, loveless, like roommates, staying because of obligations, etc.)?

 

If yes, why? Would you try to prevent cheating from occurring? Do you think MM/MW would ultimately choose to stay with you over ending the relationship?

 

If not, why? How is your relationship with MM/MW different from their relationship with the BS?

 

Replies from former APs and BSs also welcome.

 

I don't really get the point of this.

 

If everything was the same, the same thing would presumably happen. I think most of the time we believe things WOULDN'T be the same, else we'd not bother pursuing an exclusive relationship with them.

 

The presumption/hope is that

1) lessons have been learned

2) communication has had to be good in the first place and will be built upon

3) there aren't the same issues with sex in the new relationship

Etc

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Betterthanthis13

If a cheater was able to justify his behavior in the past by valuing his or her own wants/needs/happiness as more important than the commitment they made to their spouse, then they are likely to be able to do it again with a different spouse if a situation arises in which they can justify their actions.

 

The only way someone will not cheat is if they value the commitment they made to their spouse, and honesty as more important than their ever changing feelings and satisfying their ever changing desires.

 

If a cheater has this realization internally, he is likely not to cheat again. Anyone who has this realization is likely to dissolve problematic relationships before starting new ones, is likely to avoid situations that will lead to temptation while they are committed to another person, and recognize that a relationship isn't always sunshine and puppies, but the only way to be ok with yourself is to choose to make conscious rational decisions to either work on a relationship or get out of it, not act selfishly upon whatever feelings arise because of relationship problems and stay stuck in a cycle of justification.

 

So really it's not "once a cheater, always a cheater"

 

It's "once a justifier, always a justifier, until they decide to examine their ethical peinciples, be accountable for their own actions, and live their life in an honest manner"

 

That doesn't happen very often- which is why we have the once a cheater saying.

 

None of it has anything to do with how wonderful, or bad, their spouse or AP is.

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canuckprincess

I have to throw my 2 cents worth in, from what I've read most bs think that once a cheater always a cheater. Well if that's the case then there is no chance in hell you can have a successful R if you have the mindset , once a cheater always a cheater.

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If a cheater was able to justify his behavior in the past by valuing his or her own wants/needs/happiness as more important than the commitment they made to their spouse, then they are likely to be able to do it again with a different spouse if a situation arises in which they can justify their actions.

 

The only way someone will not cheat is if they value the commitment they made to their spouse, and honesty as more important than their ever changing feelings and satisfying their ever changing desires.

 

If a cheater has this realization internally, he is likely not to cheat again. Anyone who has this realization is likely to dissolve problematic relationships before starting new ones, is likely to avoid situations that will lead to temptation while they are committed to another person, and recognize that a relationship isn't always sunshine and puppies, but the only way to be ok with yourself is to choose to make conscious rational decisions to either work on a relationship or get out of it, not act selfishly upon whatever feelings arise because of relationship problems and stay stuck in a cycle of justification.

 

So really it's not "once a cheater, always a cheater"

 

It's "once a justifier, always a justifier, until they decide to examine their ethical peinciples, be accountable for their own actions, and live their life in an honest manner"

 

That doesn't happen very often- which is why we have the once a cheater saying.

 

None of it has anything to do with how wonderful, or bad, their spouse or AP is.

 

 

I can only speak of my own situation but I don't believe I would ever let my situation deteriorate to the point that he would feel he had to cheat. But, we've also worked through our situation. I've never in my life had the inclination to cheat on a partner, and my bf only cheated after 29 years 12 of those absolutely miserable. Not justifying it, just stating the situation as it was.

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It's not as simple as swapping partners and expecting everything to be rosy.

 

For the prudent ones, they know this. Other APs, even in this thread, seem to really believe it is as easy as swapping partners, and their reasoning for why MM wouldn't do it is simply "I'm not the BS. I would love him more." I think a large portion of APs are under this misconception, that is, they do not believe it is something the MP needs to address and they need to rectify as a couple, but simply put all blame on the "marriage" as some random entity which made him do it or the BS is who made him do it, and then expect with a change of scenery it will be all good. If I were to write an affair transitioning book, I think that should be on the first page, that swapping partners isn't the cure-all.

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Betterthanthis13
I can only speak of my own situation but I don't believe I would ever let my situation deteriorate to the point that he would feel he had to cheat. But, we've also worked through our situation. I've never in my life had the inclination to cheat on a partner, and my bf only cheated after 29 years 12 of those absolutely miserable. Not justifying it, just stating the situation as it was.

 

I do think that your bf is an extreme case, and I think it's very possible that he falls into the category of one of the very few who actually will not be able to justify cheating again no matter what the circumstances.

 

I think you should be able to feel like you are giving your all to your relationship out of pure love, and feel confident that even if things do deteriorate in time, that he will honor his commitment to you with honesty. There is no level of happiness you have to maintain for him in order to prevent his cheating. You maintain happiness in a relationship because it is where you want to be. Not to keep his satisfaction with you to an acceptable level so that he doesn't feel like cheating.

 

It's semantics again but very important- because you are important. You are good enough to be loved exactly as you are. You are enough.

 

Of course, if you lose your mind and morph into a hellish alcoholic he will not be pleased, he will not be happy. But that is ridiculous and probably won't happen. That is what is making you feel safe? I challenge you to expect more from him. From what I've heard so far it sounds like he "gets it".... In leaps and bounds. If you are safe with a man you are safe with him because he is a good man, not because you are a good enough woman.

 

It's important for a persons own self esteem to make that distinction. Even though your relationship will never reach the depths of hell his last one did, you will always feel better and more free knowing your contribution to the relationship always comes from pure love, and never from insecurity.

 

Or, at least trying to get to something like that :)

 

Nobody is perfect but it's helpful to have ideals and goals to work toward.

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Betterthanthis13
And I agree 100% with this.

 

I think it's the height of naivete to claim that your spouse would never cheat on you OR that he's never cheated on you.

 

Unless we're conjoined at the hip and know every move they make 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, we do NOT, with 100% certainty, know they haven't cheated. We can only ASSUME.

 

This is true. The only person you truly know is yourself.

 

That's why it's important to only give your trust to people who give you good reason to trust them.

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Betterthanthis13
I don't really get the point of this.

 

If everything was the same, the same thing would presumably happen. I think most of the time we believe things WOULDN'T be the same, else we'd not bother pursuing an exclusive relationship with them.

 

The presumption/hope is that

1) lessons have been learned

2) communication has had to be good in the first place and will be built upon

3) there aren't the same issues with sex in the new relationship

Etc

 

What in your opinion are the lessons that need to be learned?

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What in your opinion are the lessons that need to be learned?

 

Do you mean for my xMM?

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Betterthanthis13
Do you mean for my xMM?

 

Sure, for him specifically, or in general for any xWS attempting to be in a faithful relationship

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Sure, for him specifically, or in general for any xWS attempting to be in a faithful relationship

 

Ah, I can comment on his sitch, but the problems couples face are so wide and varied, and individual to people/couples, that I wouldn't want to tackle it.

 

The lessons:

Don't be with someone because it's 'what everyone else is doing'

Don't choose someone with the extreme opposite of sex drive as you

Don't look past concerns because *other people* say you seem a good match

When you both decide there's an issue work on it, resolve it, get help; don't give up at the first hurdle

Don't be so scared of change that you trap yourself in a hopeless situation

Don't accept someone back after they've cheated without addressing any of the issues that led to them cheating

Work towards what you want and voice your needs

Don't view marital problems as 'failing'

Don't be scared to talk to family, they will care more about you than what others think

 

It's pretty tragic really.

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I could have written this.

 

Aside from our relationship not beginning after an A, we had both been married previously, so I would say, so could I.

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I'm not a BS, but I don't believe most BS think that at all. I think a lot of them FEAR it, because if he could do it once, the possibility exists that he'd do it again.

 

A lot of OW seem to think the opposite - that he WON'T cheat on them if they end up with him. I think many believe that their love with their MMs is so special that he'd never cheat again if they ended up with him. Others think that it was their specialness that caused him to cheat with them, that he would have never cheated had she not been so irresistable so he broke down and did something completely out of character.

 

That may be true in some cases, but if you read the various OW support boards out there, it's QUITE common to see posts from OW who have married their affair partners and he's now cheating on them.

 

While the "once a cheater always a cheater" belief may be a bit extreme, I believe where there's smoke, there's fire.

 

Actually I see the opposite.

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I do think that your bf is an extreme case, and I think it's very possible that he falls into the category of one of the very few who actually will not be able to justify cheating again no matter what the circumstances.

 

I think you should be able to feel like you are giving your all to your relationship out of pure love, and feel confident that even if things do deteriorate in time, that he will honor his commitment to you with honesty. There is no level of happiness you have to maintain for him in order to prevent his cheating. You maintain happiness in a relationship because it is where you want to be. Not to keep his satisfaction with you to an acceptable level so that he doesn't feel like cheating.

 

It's semantics again but very important- because you are important. You are good enough to be loved exactly as you are. You are enough.

 

Of course, if you lose your mind and morph into a hellish alcoholic he will not be pleased, he will not be happy. But that is ridiculous and probably won't happen. That is what is making you feel safe? I challenge you to expect more from him. From what I've heard so far it sounds like he "gets it".... In leaps and bounds. If you are safe with a man you are safe with him because he is a good man, not because you are a good enough woman.

 

It's important for a persons own self esteem to make that distinction. Even though your relationship will never reach the depths of hell his last one did, you will always feel better and more free knowing your contribution to the relationship always comes from pure love, and never from insecurity.

 

Or, at least trying to get to something like that :)

 

Nobody is perfect but it's helpful to have ideals and goals to work toward.

 

I agree with this, but we all know, as we've been in difficult relationships that a good relationship is work. It doesn't just sail. There has to be a lot of give and take, a lot of bouying up the partner, a lot of understanding, a lot of love. If it is neglected, it will die.

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Ah, I can comment on his sitch, but the problems couples face are so wide and varied, and individual to people/couples, that I wouldn't want to tackle it.

 

The lessons:

Don't be with someone because it's 'what everyone else is doing'

Don't choose someone with the extreme opposite of sex drive as you

Don't look past concerns because *other people* say you seem a good match

When you both decide there's an issue work on it, resolve it, get help; don't give up at the first hurdle

Don't be so scared of change that you trap yourself in a hopeless situation

Don't accept someone back after they've cheated without addressing any of the issues that led to them cheating

Work towards what you want and voice your needs

Don't view marital problems as 'failing'

Don't be scared to talk to family, they will care more about you than what others think

 

It's pretty tragic really.

 

I agree with this, but I believe care needs to be taken if you are sharing with family an infidelity. I don't know if I would because my family would hate my spouse forever. If we tried to work it out, it would be horrible to be around my family then. Just an opinion... lots of BS's feel the best thing to do is expose. I disagree. Everything else, Right on.

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I agree with this, but I believe care needs to be taken if you are sharing with family an infidelity. I don't know if I would because my family would hate my spouse forever. If we tried to work it out, it would be horrible to be around my family then. Just an opinion... lots of BS's feel the best thing to do is expose. I disagree. Everything else, Right on.

 

Erm... I think if I were serious about reconciliation I'd share. In fact, she actually moved out for several months to be with her new man and it was hard for xMM to keep that to himself.

 

But I wasn't referring to that, I was talking about sharing that things aren't as they should be, to get support and perspective. Better than bottling up and carrying the burden alone. In my view anyway.

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Betterthanthis13
Ah, I can comment on his sitch, but the problems couples face are so wide and varied, and individual to people/couples, that I wouldn't want to tackle it.

 

The lessons:

Don't be with someone because it's 'what everyone else is doing'

Don't choose someone with the extreme opposite of sex drive as you

Don't look past concerns because *other people* say you seem a good match

When you both decide there's an issue work on it, resolve it, get help; don't give up at the first hurdle

Don't be so scared of change that you trap yourself in a hopeless situation

Don't accept someone back after they've cheated without addressing any of the issues that led to them cheating

Work towards what you want and voice your needs

Don't view marital problems as 'failing'

Don't be scared to talk to family, they will care more about you than what others think

 

It's pretty tragic really.

 

Those are all really good things he learned about himself and how to have a better relationship this time around.

 

And there are an infinite number of lessons a person can learn from their last relationship. Like you said, too varied and way too many things to list.

 

I'm curious because you challenged the OP's question, by saying of course the situation will be different, otherwise why bother trying to have an exclusive relationship with a guy who cheated on someone else? So it makes me think that your assumption is that because the new relationship is going to be built better and stronger than the last one, using the lessons learned, with better communication this time around, you aren't worried about him cheating on you. That makes sense.

 

The problem with that reasoning is:

 

What if different problems arise in the new relationship that are unlike the problems from the old one, which he already learned the lessons from?

 

there are soooooo many things that can cause relationship problems and "drive" one person to cheat, if they want to justify it.

 

In my opinion, relationship problems (whatever they are, no matter how bad they are) don't cause or justify cheating. Cheating is a choice, plain and simple.

 

If your guy "gets" that one thing, and believes it and starts living by it, he has a good shot at being faithful. If not, he is still prone to cheating- because he feels cheating is justified if the situation is "bad enough". And he is the only person who gets to decide when it is bad enough- putting you or anyone else who is with him in an impossible situation.

 

"Keep me happy enough or I might be tempted to cheat"

Is the underlying message of justifiers.

 

Even with all the best new communication skills-

What if he becomes unhappy? And is tired of talking about whatever issue you have? And he reaches out to his friends and family who tell him to work it out with you, but he still feels (angry, ignored, upset, annoyed, whatever) and a new girl comes on the scene and pays him some attention.

 

If he was able to justify cheating before, it is likely he can do it again. UNLESS he realizes there is NO justification for cheating- cheating is a choice.

 

That's why that's the only lesson that truly matters when determining if someone might be faithful or not.

 

Nobody is "immune" to cheating. Every person makes the choice to be a cheater or not to be a cheater. A person can have made the choice in the past to cheat, and decide that was a bad choice and never do it again.

 

Justifiers are a shot in the dark, a wild card- maybe they won't cheat because they are just so incredibly happy forever and ever in the new relationship that the situation never arises. It's possible that could happen. But it is nerve racking to be with a justifier, because... You just never know. It's a lot of unneccesary stress and pressure on their spouse. Nobody can make a spouse happy 24/7. That is impossible.

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Those are all really good things he learned about himself and how to have a better relationship this time around.

 

And there are an infinite number of lessons a person can learn from their last relationship. Like you said, too varied and way too many things to list.

 

I'm curious because you challenged the OP's question, by saying of course the situation will be different, otherwise why bother trying to have an exclusive relationship with a guy who cheated on someone else? So it makes me think that your assumption is that because the new relationship is going to be built better and stronger than the last one, using the lessons learned, with better communication this time around, you aren't worried about him cheating on you. That makes sense.

 

The problem with that reasoning is:

 

[/snip]

 

 

I said we BELIEVE things will be different, due to lessons learned. In the same/similar way as a couple may choose to reconcile post-affair.

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Betterthanthis13
I said we BELIEVE things will be different, due to lessons learned. In the same/similar way as a couple may choose to reconcile post-affair.

 

Absolutely. A BS reconciling would have the exact same issue to deal with regarding the WS.

 

I ramble too much anyway- my only point was that putting faith in better, happier relationship circumstances being enough to deter a justifier from cheating in the future is not looking out for yourself.

 

I'd say the same thing to a BS in R.

 

it's not "watch your back, he's gonna cheat on you"- I don't know him, I'm sure he is a lovely person, and I would never say such a thing to anyone anyway.

 

My message to you is that you do deserve to be happy and loved in a faithful relationship. The past is the past. I'm just pointing out a topic you might want to analyze and discuss with your man, so you can have peace of mind and the ability to fully trust him.

 

You can't trust justifiers- find out if you have a justifier or not.

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Absolutely. A BS reconciling would have the exact same issue to deal with regarding the WS.

 

I ramble too much anyway- my only point was that putting faith in better, happier relationship circumstances being enough to deter a justifier from cheating in the future is not looking out for yourself.

 

I'd say the same thing to a BS in R.

 

it's not "watch your back, he's gonna cheat on you"- I don't know him, I'm sure he is a lovely person, and I would never say such a thing to anyone anyway.

 

My message to you is that you do deserve to be happy and loved in a faithful relationship. The past is the past. I'm just pointing out a topic you might want to analyze and discuss with your man, so you can have peace of mind and the ability to fully trust him.

 

You can't trust justifiers- find out if you have a justifier or not.

 

I'm not with that guy. But we were together and exclusive and I didn't worry he was going to cheat. Well, no more than I would have done with any bloke.

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