What does NC mean to you?

[drifter777]

I wonder why WW's never seem to like my posts.

[anne1707]

I wonder why WW's never seem to like my posts.

 

Because you show such contempt and disgust which would be fine if it was not for the fact that you have stayed with your wife. If this is how you feel about WW, it is how you feel about your wife.

[toolforgrowth]

Tool I glad your method has worked for you. But for me your last line sounds like a power struggle which is not a good thing. I am in reconciliation and it's a balance. It's understanding both have choices, both have needs and both need to put the marriage first. That's my issue with some of CDs actions is that she falls off the wagon sometimes and does not put the health of her marriage at the top. But, guess what I am also guilty of this so we all try to muddle through and do better. I think CD posts here because there tends to be more honesty and less cheerleading of destructive behaviors. JMO

 

It's not a power struggle. It's showing the WS that there are consequences for their actions. That my love is not a guarantee no matter what they do, and that they have to be deserving of me, my time, my energy, my devotion, and my life.

 

The WS did not put the marriage first. Why should the BS be expected to? I see no compelling reason for a BS to stay, regardless of the situation. Nobody should ever have to put up with that.

 

I'm not saying that people who don't do what I did are wrong. It's their life, they can make whatever choice they want. But I believe that CD would be singing a much different tune right now if she truly believed that divorce was on the table, and that she was afraid even for just a moment that CM may walk.

 

I feel as though he's torturing himself by staying in these circumstances. CD has seen no real consequences for her actions. And because of that, she's still pining over OM when who she should really be pining for is CM.

 

she falls off the wagon sometimes and does not put the health of her marriage at the top. But, guess what I am also guilty of this

 

Yikes.

[gettingstronger]

Divorce is always on the table for everyone and only a fool believes otherwise. I am far from perfect as a BS, I push too hard sometimes, I can be unreasonable , etc. I know full well he can walk anytime and he knows I can too, that's what makes us equal in this. Again, JMO

[drifter777]

...

I'm not saying that people who don't do what I did are wrong. It's their life, they can make whatever choice they want. But I believe that CD would be singing a much different tune right now if she truly believed that divorce was on the table, and that she was afraid even for just a moment that CM may walk.

10 characters.

[veritas lux mea]

I wonder why WW's never seem to like my posts.

 

I liked your post just so you can't say never anymore.

 

And I didn't say I didn't like it or disagreed but that it was harsh. Maybe I like harsh? And I mused that you are a dammed if you do, unforgiving kind of guy. Didn't say it was a bad thing just an observation.

[toolforgrowth]

I mused that you are a dammed if you do, unforgiving kind of guy. Didn't say it was a bad thing just an observation.

 

I've forgiven my xWW. I even told her I forgave her.

 

But I will never be with her again. Won't happen.

 

For some (like me), infidelity is a permanent deal breaker. Doesn't have to be for everyone. I'm not anti-R, either. I just know that personally, I could never be secure in a relationship with my xWW after her cheating. There is nothing she could ever do to make me be able to trust her again, even if she became the textbook remorseful WW. That's just how I'm wired..

 

But not all people are wired like that, and that's okay. I've been following Sofie's thread for quite a while now, and I've been holding out hope that they would R. And I'll be very happy for them both if they manage to work it out.

 

It's just not something that I'm personally capable of. And I'm okay with that. It's part of who I am.

 

What gets me is the implication that a BS is somehow "wrong" for choosing to not R with a remorseful WS. Like it's an obligation of some kind. Any obligations I may have once had for my xWW vanished the second she was penetrated by another man. I ceased to owe her anything.

 

Forgiveness does not equal R. The two are mutually exclusive.

[veritas lux mea]

I've forgiven my xWW. I even told her I forgave her.

 

But I will never be with her again. Won't happen.

 

For some (like me), infidelity is a permanent deal breaker. Doesn't have to be for everyone. I'm not anti-R, either. I just know that personally, I could never be secure in a relationship with my xWW after her cheating. There is nothing she could ever do to make me be able to trust her again, even if she became the textbook remorseful WW. That's just how I'm wired..

 

But not all people are wired like that, and that's okay. I've been following Sofie's thread for quite a while now, and I've been holding out hope that they would R. And I'll be very happy for them both if they manage to work it out.

 

It's just not something that I'm personally capable of. And I'm okay with that. It's part of who I am.

 

What gets me is the implication that a BS is somehow "wrong" for choosing to not R with a remorseful WS. Like it's an obligation of some kind. Any obligations I may have once had for my xWW vanished the second she was penetrated by another man. I ceased to owe her anything.

 

Forgiveness does not equal R. The two are mutually exclusive.

 

I never said that and that is your own assumption of my post. You know why? My musing were about drifter who DID stay with his wife. And it appears by his posts that he is an unforgiving person. To quote Pride & and Predjudice "My good opinion once lost, is lost forever." that is what I mean when I say "unforgiving". A person who divorces and forgives their WS wishes them well and does not hope for something to bad to happen to them. If they co parent they can even have a good relationship and genuinly be happy for them if something good comes their WS' way. I don't think they have to stay with them in order to forgive. I am no pro reconciliation and don't know if I ever said that. I can be all over the place but I am stabelizing. I'm glad I got a second chance but no one should get one. I do hope if (like sophie) they have really turned around that they do get one but I don't think us waywards deserve it.

 

Remember, drifter reconciled and yet I don't think he has forgiven his wife or ever will. I don't think he has forgiven himself either and that is sad. His good opinion once lost, is lost forever.

 

Disclaimer: sorry drifter i don't mean to pick on you. The sad part is in referring to you forgiving yourself.

[Clay]

Because you show such contempt and disgust which would be fine if it was not for the fact that you have stayed with your wife. If this is how you feel about WW, it is how you feel about your wife.

 

If he did R with his wife it sure sounds like he might still need some counseling. I do often feel harsh towards a cheater but I try to take all things into account before making a harsh comment.

 

I hope the OP can at least try to see what everyone is saying about the continued fishing she is doing. I also hope Her Husband reads this post. It might help give him some insight into what is going on with her.

 

I think her looking up the other man would be the nail in the coffin for me but its up to these two to figure out what works and does not work for them.

 

Clay

[compulsivedancer]

And then you are asking for help regarding "year 2 of reconciliation" because it feels different but doesn't seem to be getting better. Wow. Why don't you just come out and say "All this aggravation over my affair is getting tiring. Why can't my BH just move on? Why can't he leave the past in the past? Why can't he just get over it?" Your narcissism in this area knows no bounds.

 

Sorry I haven't really responded. I've been running around like crazy at a conference and LS takes back burner.

 

The purpose behind that post is to get input to help me and H move forward. I want us to heal completely (as completely as possible) so that years down the road we do not have the issues that you struggle with.

 

Many people have suggested that Year 2 is more challenging than Year 1 in many ways. It is a different challenge and requires different tools. So the point of asking for help is this area is to remind myself NOT to say "get over it already!" and instead have the tools to continue to work on the relationship.

 

I want to know what other people have done and what has been helpful, as well as some insight into what is going on in H's mind. I don't understand how this is narcissistic.

 

Please tell me what the RIGHT questions are. If there are things that I am not asking that I should be asking, I WOULD like to know. This is as new to me as it is to anyone going through this. I do feel like we've already addressed most of the big, usual questions during year 1, so I would love to have some new ones for year 2, if they would be helpful.

 

What would YOU have liked your WW to address that she didn't?

 

(Please note: If we are going to spend a lot of time on Year 2 stuff, please respond on the Year 2 thread.)

[compulsivedancer]

Oh trust me, I get it. I don't mean to pile onto CD here but when I read CM's thread, my jaw was on the floor. I was like, OMG, WTF?! As I recall, it took me days to even type a post because I was so horribly sad and disappointed that I had no idea what to say. Much like you said recently, here she was being given the gift of a second chance and all the while, her poor husband is seeing her repeatedly and secretly searching for the OM for like a year. Truly, it was probably one of the most disappointing things I'd read her for a very long time and I was just waiting for CM to say he was done.

 

But as distressing as it was, I've seen more than a few successful reconciliations go thru these kinds of speedbumps - broken NC, another round of TT, etc - and still come out the other side. How many times did your H get kicked out of the house? Sadly, wayward thoughts and behaviors pretty much never stop immediately.

 

During my reconciliation, I made a big effort to look at intent. A lot of hurts were caused without mal-intent. In this case, CD has been told time and time again to be introspective, to process it all, to figure out her why, to fix what was broken - in short, to analyze it all to death. But at the same time, any "indirect" breach of even mental NC is a divorce-worthy offense. I'm not justifying it; I'm just saying it's a hell of a tall order to say that she's never going to think or wonder if it was "just sex," if she was just used, and if he's just moving on happily. She's processing it and sadly, this comes with the territory the vast majority of the time.

 

Do I think she should be looking in that direction for any kind of closure? Hell no. I agree with you. What was it that taramaiden used to say? "Closure is like vomit, it comes from within." I think the point was the chasing closure from the OM/OW is like looking for puke. Not many waywards get it, at least not right away.

 

But ultimately, as bad as this would have felt for CM, (if what CD says is to be believed) I don't think CDs intent was to breach NC with the OM or that she was longingly pining away for him, somehow wishing she were still with him. I really doubt that. And the difference in intent made a difference to me.

 

Either way, I think she's damn lucky that her husband is still with her. This feels like a third chance to me, particularly since these searches were done so privately without any mention to her H (or even here at LS, for that matter). That speaks to lies of omission and deception and any patience with that is truly a gift. I'm glad to see that it has stopped; hopefully that means growth.

 

I am continually amazed at how invested people on LS are in our relationship. I appreciate the support, as well as the anger. I know it's there because people care. (BH, your "like" on a post calling for our divorce was the final straw for me that led to that rant a couple pages back… Because I value your opinion, it hurt that you were now rooting for divorce.)

 

I hope that our relationship and reconciliation can be a success story at some point in the future.

 

Btw, H reads all of my posts on here. A confession on LS IS a confession to H. I think a lot of people don't realize this, or forget it, because I try really hard to be pretty open on here (otherwise, what's the point?). But this is a huge disadvantage of having both spouses on here, because I cannot truly post anonymously.

 

On the other hand, if H wasn't on here, you would have heard of this incident (these incidents) entirely from my viewpoint, and I could have shaped your perspective. The advantage of H weighing in is that I get to see firsthand your (LS's) true reaction. It's hard, but you guys certainly don't sugarcoat.

 

(If we're talking advantages…there is also the advantage that H gets to see my thought process in action, as well as some of the answers to questions that other people ask, that he hadn't necessarily asked, or that he had asked in a different way. I am a writer, and express and explore my thought process the best through writing. In many ways, he is reading my journal, my therapy AND my personal conversations all in one when he reads these posts/threads…again, it's a mixed blessing, but I think it does, for the most part, help)

[compulsivedancer]

You seem so adamant that you're not getting a divorce. That adamance is the gateway that I feel you're taking to continue taking advantage of him. Why stop looking up the OM if you "know" you're not going to get a divorce?

 

That's why I always advocate divorce after infidelity. The divorce sets the stage and tells the WS that infidelity will not be tolerated. That, and if R doesn't work out, the divorce has already been settled. It tells the WS "Look, I've already got both feet out the door. What are you going to do about it?"

 

Tool, I am adamant because I am hoping to quell the *constant* calls for divorce. I'm pretty sure that when we're 6 years into reconciliation, there will still be people who suggest divorce, even if things are mostly going well!

 

I certainly know that divorce is still possible, but for the last few months, for the first time since DDay, I feel fairly confident that we are past the daily uncertainty over continuing our marriage. We are no longer in that "it could go either way at the drop of a hat" stage.

[compulsivedancer]

CD has seen no real consequences for her actions.

 

Last year was the hardest year of my life. Much much harder than the next hardest thing in my life. For perspective, the next hardest thing was a miscarriage that literally changed everything for me, sent me into at least a year of depression, caused me to gain 30 lbs in 1.5 years and was a daily constant in my life for 2-3 years. An event that barely caused any pain to H and set me up with many of the emotions that later contributed to my affair.

 

That was nothing compared to the aftermath of an affair. So while my consequences don't look like a lot to someone on the outside, they were very very real. Not the least of which was having to watch the person I love most struggle with pain and rage moment-by-moment. Pain and rage that I caused.

 

Yes, I know that this does not compare to what he is going through, but it is not an easy journey for anyone involved, and it would have been far easier (for me) to divorce, as a couple without children or property.

[BetrayedH]

BH, your "like" on a post calling for our divorce was the final straw for me that led to that rant a couple pages back… Because I value your opinion, it hurt that you were now rooting for divorce.

 

Funny how a click on a "like" can convey the wrong message. I actually try to be pretty selective with those for just this reason.

 

CD, I've never rooted for your divorce. Amazed that your H didn't divorce you after I read his thread? Absolutely. Those searches for OM weren't confessed. You hid them and were confronted. After your husband was giving you a second chance, you were looking for photos and updates on the man who helped ruin your husband's life and hiding it (continued wayward thinking and behavior a year into your reconciliation). I wasn't rooting for your divorce but agreeing that you're damn lucky it wasn't a dealbreaker for him.

[Spark1111]

Last year was the hardest year of my life. Much much harder than the next hardest thing in my life. For perspective, the next hardest thing was a miscarriage that literally changed everything for me, sent me into at least a year of depression, caused me to gain 30 lbs in 1.5 years and was a daily constant in my life for 2-3 years. An event that barely caused any pain to H and set me up with many of the emotions that later contributed to my affair.

 

That was nothing compared to the aftermath of an affair. So while my consequences don't look like a lot to someone on the outside, they were very very real. Not the least of which was having to watch the person I love most struggle with pain and rage moment-by-moment. Pain and rage that I caused.

 

Yes, I know that this does not compare to what he is going through, but it is not an easy journey for anyone involved, and it would have been far easier (for me) to divorce, as a couple without children or property.

 

year two was harder for me as a fBS for the very reasons you listed above.

 

I no longer had the option, IMO, of the freedom of divorcing, of walking away if the pain was too great or if I sensed he was growing complacent again about our relationship.

 

If I was staying, I had to come to terms with WHO I was staying with, and that caused me great insecurity.

 

Would he have the courage to examine his motives, his character, or would he always be susceptible to the flattery and admiration of strangers, acquaintances, co-workers and friends?

 

THAT is a huge leap of faith for any BS. I lived a lot in my own head and heart year two. The drama was over, my man remorseful and trying, and I had to decide if that would be enough for me....forever.

 

The WS has to deal with all the effort they perceive they are putting in to R, yet, the other shoe could still drop.

 

Year two was less denial, shock, rage betrayal, and more resentment, depression that this had even happened to me, to us. I became obsessed with WHY, more so than my WS.

 

I was looking for every reassurance I could get that IF I continued to stay, this would NEVER happen to me again.

 

Reassure, reassure, reassure him, any way you can think of. And don't stop apologizing. And dig deep to find your why, your epiphany in IC. And be ready to rehash, and kindly communicate on the drop of a dime.

 

Year two was still a roller coaster, a quieter, sadder, more introspective one, but still a roller coaster.....

[toolforgrowth]

Not the least of which was having to watch the person I love most struggle with pain and rage moment-by-moment. Pain and rage that I caused.

 

Pain and rage that you are still continuing to cause him by stalking the OM online. I think you aware of his pain in an abstract sense, but it's not in the forefront of your mind. Because of that, you are able to rationalize your continued behavior. "Why did the OM use me?" That is not the appropriate question to be asked at this time. The real question is "Why did I break my husband's heart, and still continue to do so?"

 

I just don't see CM as being your #1. I think the OM will always be your #1, and your actions continue to prove that. You feel guilty, so keeping the marriage intact allows you to soothe your ego and tell yourself that you really aren't a bad person, or else why would CM stay with you?

 

That question is for a different thread. And I'd LOVE to hear the answer.

 

Yes, I know that

it would have been far easier (for me) to divorce, as a couple without children or property.

 

Dual incomes provide for a higher standard of living. And even without children or property, divorce is still not easy. I tend to think there are other reasons that come into play here than your feelings for CM, especially since you can't let to of the OM.

 

When it comes to your miscarriage, I have nothing but sympathy for you in that aspect. But that doesn't explain your continued obsession with the OM. At this point, I don't see how the two are related. I can make the connection as to why something like that could have spawned an affair (although still not a justification for it) but not your continued stalking of him.

 

I can't shake the feeling that you're staying for more selfish reasons.

[drifter777]

Sorry I haven't really responded. I've been running around like crazy at a conference and LS takes back burner.

 

The purpose behind that post is to get input to help me and H move forward. I want us to heal completely (as completely as possible) so that years down the road we do not have the issues that you struggle with.

 

Many people have suggested that Year 2 is more challenging than Year 1 in many ways. It is a different challenge and requires different tools. So the point of asking for help is this area is to remind myself NOT to say "get over it already!" and instead have the tools to continue to work on the relationship.

 

I want to know what other people have done and what has been helpful, as well as some insight into what is going on in H's mind. I don't understand how this is narcissistic.

 

Please tell me what the RIGHT questions are. If there are things that I am not asking that I should be asking, I WOULD like to know. This is as new to me as it is to anyone going through this. I do feel like we've already addressed most of the big, usual questions during year 1, so I would love to have some new ones for year 2, if they would be helpful.

 

What would YOU have liked your WW to address that she didn't?

 

(Please note: If we are going to spend a lot of time on Year 2 stuff, please respond on the Year 2 thread.)

See my response in the Year 2 thread.

[Scott Thomas]

CD,

 

I'll keep this brief:

 

Not many WW get a 2nd chance. I don't want to sound condescending but you're lucky CM gave you another chance. Don't throw this away. You can read other threads and see how people reconciled. I never recommend reconciliation unless the WS is remorseful and doing everything he/she can. Truth be told, I can't categorise your actions but I don't really see any concrete actions on your part.

The last thing we want is for you to return and post that CM filed for divorce. Whether this is what's needed to wake you up is an entirely different topic.

 

Cheers!

[revelations]

veritas lux mea:

A lot of people on here have been taking a hard stance about CD looking up her xOM for a reason. First off you need to look at it from a BS's perspective in order to understand why. A BS may look at it in slightly different ways but in general you can say we feel like this. Our WS have chosen to be with someone else, they have actually said by actions that we do not matter. We may consider them to be contaminated (yes I know seems childish) however for a BH and some BW this is the case. There are often times when we feel that we are the second choice, after all do we not have the proof of this? However despite all of this and many more feelings we have chosen to stay with you.

 

So now that we have chosen to remain with the WS and they have agreed to certain things for us to feel secure, don't you think it would be wise to do so? Something as simple as looking up the xOM in CD's case may look trivial on the surface. However to the BH or any BS it is a very loud alarm that is warning of another betrayal down the line. It shows that the WS is not just thinking of the other person, they are trying to find out about their life. It is demonstrating by action that the WS still has invested feelings and concerns for their xAP were there should be none. Simply put, if the WS cannot so something as simple as not looking up the xAP, then how are we to trust the WS they won't do something more? When asking for a second chance, do you feel it is asking too much to simply have no contact or even look up the xAP? As a BS how are we suppose to be secure that such an event will not take place again? Is a BS suppose to gleefully listen to a WS tell us the stories of their time with the xAP? Perhaps a BS is suppose to pay for the hotel to meet up with the xAP? Just how much does a WS want and how far do they want to push it? Seems to me that any WS would simply stop trying to look in on an xAP or have any sort of contact, don't you think this is pretty simple to do?

 

CD:

Bottom line is that CM feels it is wrong for you to google your xAP. You are not making your BH feel secure with you by doing this. CM has given you a gift (which you do not deserve) of a second chance with him. Do not get the idea that it is okay for you to test his limits. Look at what I wrote VLM above and try and understand this. By looking up the xAP you are not only showing CM that you do not respect him nor care for his feelings. You are also showing him that you place little value on the marriage to satisfy yourself. Some may say I am out of line with this, however I believe that you should be kissing CM's ass to the point were he won't be able to sit for a week. Stop taking CM for granted, you need to show remorse in more than one way. Probably a good start would be to stop googling the xAP.

[beach]

Funny how a click on a "like" can convey the wrong message. I actually try to be pretty selective with those for just this reason.

 

CD, I've never rooted for your divorce. Amazed that your H didn't divorce you after I read his thread? Absolutely. Those searches for OM weren't confessed. You hid them and were confronted. After your husband was giving you a second chance, you were looking for photos and updates on the man who helped ruin your husband's life and hiding it (continued wayward thinking and behavior a year into your reconciliation). I wasn't rooting for your divorce but agreeing that you're damn lucky it wasn't a dealbreaker for him.

 

This is what I was so completely disappointed about CD.

 

I really felt that I was in your corner, rooting for both of you and wanting the best possible outcome for healing within the marriage.

 

Then ---> when HE posted that you'd been doing that - I felt duped, like you weren't completely honest with the people here trying to support the M.

 

I feel if you expect to regain credibility and become trustworthy - that COMPLETE honesty is necessary in everything you do, say and think.

 

I do believe IF you aren't feeding the devil (any thoughts about OM) and if you aren't taking any action when you are thinking of him... That after a long while passes = you may find you haven't thought of him at all for months and months at a time. The longer you stay absolutely NC - the more you won't be thinking of him.

 

If you think of him or search him - I honk you owe it to your hubby to tell him.

 

Him finding out afterwards on his own is even more hurtful. That betrayal starts all over again and if it continues he just gets the firm idea that he will never be able to trust you.

 

You either get with the program of reconciling and go all in for a renew marriage - or you continue to to do it half a$$ed or even 80% well - knowing it's not enough to sustain your husbands feelings of wanting to believe you.

 

Every time you break ANY form of NC - you become even more untrustworthy.

 

A betrayed only have a certain amount of chances of this before they realize they are losing their own self respect every time they attempt to forgive you.

[whichwayisup]

My concern with the googling - Just keeps exOM in your mind, which I'm guessing made your husband question your sincerity about working on yourself and the marriage. Whether it was just pure curiosity of finding out info about exOM and it became a habit, it has to totally stop where you don't care one bit wtf exOM's life. Must act like he doesn't exist as he is no longer in your lives at all.

[drifter777]

CD: It just came to me that it is very, very difficult for you to be transparent here on LS with anything that you are keeping from your BH because he reads your posts here. I'm sure that's why you never posted about your stalking OM and whatever else you are keeping from him because you don't want to get into it with BH and, probably, tell yourself it's not germane to your R attempts. It's kind of like an addict not telling his group or sponsor about a "slip" because he thinks it was a one-time thing and isn't important to his recovery. Kind of like that.

 

There is no way you can convince me you are not holding back certain things. I know you will deny it because you have to keep your story on LS consistent with what you tell BH. Only your heart will know if what I say has some truth to it. Since you seem committed to R I think you need to tell your BH everything you are feeling and doing that relates to your affair. It feels like you are still trying to manage your BH's recovery and lead him through R instead of trusting him and focusing on your own issues, and then allowing your recovery to play out as it should.