Depressed, Possible BPD? Narcissistic? Ex Girlfriend Left Me For Someone Else.

[mbgeezle]

Thanks for your reply downtown. I really had her interests at heart not my own. It was never about me. It was about helping her. I've outlined her background and past on the previous page. During her cannabis use etc. If there is anyway you could break that down and explain if this may lead down the bpd path I'd be grateful

[mbgeezle]

I'm determined to take the right path once some clarity is given about her behaviour patterns. I no my issues and they are being addressed. Knowing that her mental disorder was the cause for her complete lack of respect and disregard for my feelings. Also her having sex with another guy every night is not an issue for me. I couldn't care less about that. What I care about is how and why she could treat me so appallingly. I no human beings can be bad. But whe really took it to a whole different level.

[Emilia]

Emilia, the problem is that there is no "basic definition" accepted by the psychiatric community. Instead, there are many factions having differing views about it. Indeed, there is no agreement that codependency even constitutes a disorder or dysfunctional behavior. That's why it is not defined in the APA's Diagnostic Manual -- and is not even mentioned.

 

Significantly, the world's largest association devoted to codependency -- i.e., CoDA (Codependents Anonymous) could not even reach agreement among its members on how to define it. That's why CoDA provides no definition of it at their website. Instead, they simply provide a grocery list of over 50 traits that includes everything but the kitchen sink.

 

Granted, you can find a "definition" of it at the Wikipedia article you cite, which restates the same medical definition given by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. That defintion, however, does not support your interpretation (that codependents control OTHERS). Rather, Merriam-Webster says that codependents rely on others to control THEM. Specifically, it defines codependency to be:

a psychological condition or a relationship in which

a person is controlled or manipulated by another

who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin);

broadly

:

dependence on the needs of or control by another

Certainly, you would find support from a lot of folks who define codependency exactly that way. Similarly, you will find lots of support for many other definitions, including that offered by Merriam-Webster. My experience, however, is that most folks who have lived with a BPDer for 15 years like me -- and for 6 years as MB may have done -- are not controlling people. Rather, they are excessive caregivers who keep helping others even when it is to their great disadvantage to do so.

 

I therefore like Kathy Batesel's simple definition, which states that codependency occurs when one's own happiness is overly dependent on the happiness of another. Similarly, I like Shari Schreiber's definition of it occurring when a person's desire to be needed (for what he can do) far exceeds his desire to be loved (for the person he already is).

 

But, of course, I recognize that this definition is not any more "correct" than the one you use. I use it only because I believe it more accurately describes the partners who become trapped in toxic relationships with BPDers. Yet, because of the contentiousness associated with the term, I generally try to avoid the controversy by instead using the term, "excessive caregiver."

Understand and sorry to quote your whole post which in turn makes mine very long but I didn't want to chop out just parts to support my argument.

 

I take your point, however being an 'excessive caretaker' myself and definitely not wishing to offend you, I do believe one essential aspect of codependency is control. It may or may not be officially recognised and I suppose it is something we could sit here and debate about until the cows come home but to me ultimately codependency is about turning another person into something we can manage. Someone we can live with and tolerate.

 

It is this book Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melody Beattie - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists that opened my eyes to the underlying aspect of codependency, the desire to turn the person into someone else through therapy or other means instead of cutting your losses and leaving them be.

 

Again not to wish to offend anyone but I think the fear of being with someone who is functional and healthy and doesn't need us is at the bottom of it and ultimately that is about control. The desire to be needed is the desire to control.

[Emilia]

I have no other option but to take your word, but I see where Emilia is coming from. The whole relationship your focus was on her. That I agree with. What do you have to show for it? You said she didn't appreciate you. Now after the relationship is over and she is having sex with a new guy every night all your focus is still on her and not you..

 

You can not even start to see how wrong this is? The questions you should be asking are not about BPD! The questions you need to be asking is why you are the way you are. Realising it's not healthy and you will never get a healthy partner the way you are and then doing something about it.

 

You have a long road ahead as you are determined to take the wrong path and that is the saddest part of all..

I suppose we all have to agree to disagree, I've just posted my response regarding how I see codependence. It isn't exact science and maybe I am overtly critical, however I don't see it as something benign at all.

[mbgeezle]

Gaining a further understanding if I can pretty much determine this girl suffers from bpd or some kind of personality disorder will help me understand why she left as she did and why she treated me so badly. I've not outlined all her behaviour and past for it not to be broken down so I can gain a understanding better. I no what I must do for me. And I will sever all ties and thoughts of my ex sooner rather than later. I'm becoming tired of thinking about her now and I suppose this can only be a good thing. I no I won't ever love so easily again and I'll never honestly truly trust a woman again, or anyone for that matter. That may seem ridiculous but when you emotionally invest and love my ex like I did, to be left for someone else with not one sign of that happening, has shattered me. But I'm not heartbroken anymore. I've got a holiday to look forward to in 3 weeks. My body's looking great. I feel greater than I have done in a long time. Things are on the up. They can only get better

[keepontruckin]

You WILL trust again (foolishly), and you WILL love again (foolishly), and you WILL spend your time and money again on someone (foolishly)!

 

Some investments are rotten, and some investments pay very well... There's no way to time them, though...

 

You don't know if you don't play the game. If everyone here invested in Apple, et al, when the time was right, we'd all be very happy people. That only rarely happens, though... Just the right place, at the right time, with the right feel. It cannot be rushed, it cannot be predicted, and it cannot be planned.

 

Once in a while I buy a lottery ticket. I know what my odds are, and they're not good. However, some people do win. Can't win if you don't gamble and buy the ticket!

[mbgeezle]

There's one thing I won't be doing and thats loving foolishly. Never again. I'll be so much more cautious and will judge constantly and it isn't how I want to be. But unfortunately after being betrayed like I have been, it's going to colour my view of anyone who gets close to me.

 

I love my ex and wish her no ill will but karma is a Bitch. You can't do what my ex did to me, leaving me for another guy for one. Nothing good, long term, discounting all her emotional problems, nothing good can ever come of it I feel.

[keepontruckin]

Oh yes you will! You won't plan it, but you'll be like a baby laughing seeing a clown toy...

 

I met my wife when my Grandmother was living in a home. My wife was one of the aides there... My Grandmother has since passed, and my wife is soon to be ex...

 

The chances that I could recreate this meeting again are slim to none... I could never recreate it again in the same environment...

[mbgeezle]

Maybe I will but I'll be constantly weary of her leaving me. Weary that she's lying etc. Because it's all I've been used to for a long time now. Do you personally agree nothing good can come of leaving one partner for another? Obviously she never said that what happened but after just s few days she was telling me 'he treats me well' 'knows everything about me' 'likes me for who I am' 'knows what I'm like and doesn't care'. So she was obviously at the very least emotionally cheating on me. Which I find is worse than physical cheating.

[keepontruckin]

In the future, if you see any of that crap happening, you now know how to proceed:cool:

[Downtown]

Your focus was on her....The questions you should be asking are not about BPD! The questions you need to be asking is why you are the way you are.

I agree, Mack, that MB should focus on what he can control, i.e., his own issues. My experience, however, is that the quickest and easiest way for an excessive caregiver to bring his own issues into focus is to spend a few hours or days learning how his wife is contributing to the toxic marriage. Then, by subtraction, he can more easily see the role he has played in contributing to that toxicity.

 

One reason this "backwards" approach seems to work so well is that caregivers like MB and me are usually convinced we are doing the right thing because, after all, we are "only trying to help" a loved one. Until we understand how deeply embedded the BPDer's issues are, we cannot see how pointless and counter-productive our efforts "to help" have been. Once we realize we have been foolishly expecting a wife with the emotional development of a four year old to behave like a rational adult, we very quickly see the folly of our own behavior.

 

The primary reason for using the backwards approach, however, is that we excessive caregivers have such low personal boundaries -- and so much empathy -- that it is hard for us to figure out where our own issues stop and our wives' issues begin. It all blurs together, with the result that our happiness depends fully on her happiness.

 

Hence, because it is FAR easier to see another person's issues than one's own, I have found that this "teasing apart" process is greatly accelerated by taking time to have a basic understanding of the wife's contribution to the toxicity in the marriage. This is why I always begin my discussions with these caregivers by explaining the BPD traits, not the excessive caregiver traits.

 

By "taking time," I am not suggesting weeks or months but, rather, a few hours or days. I therefore agree with you, Mack, that it is important for MB to keep the primary focus on himself -- which is why both of us (and Emilia) have already started discussing with him the way in which excessive caregiving -- i.e., protecting the BPDer from the logical consequences of her own choices -- is harmful because it is enabling.

[Downtown]

Again not to wish to offend anyone....

Emilia, not to worry. There is little chance of that occurring, given your gentle and considerate manner of expressing yourself.

I think the fear of being with someone who is functional and healthy and doesn't need us is at the bottom of it and ultimately that is about control. The desire to be needed is the desire to control.

If MB's exGF has strong BPD traits as he suspects, his relationship with her was not boyfriend/girlfriend but, rather, a parent/child relationship. I say this because BPDers typically have the emotional development of a 3 or 4 year old. He therefore wanted to help her grow and to protect her -- with the same good intentions that nearly all parents have toward their children. I don't see what good is achieved by describing this basic human desire to be needed -- to be nurturing -- "controlling."

 

IMO, such "controlling" behavior is not harmful but, rather, necessary for the survival of our species -- and necessary to give purpose to our lives. Wanting to be needed becomes a problem only when that desire far exceeds your desire to be loved (for whom you are, not what you can do). Yet, when that happens, the problem is not one of being "controlling" but rather of being so enmeshed -- with such low personal boundaries -- that you lose sight of your own needs.

I don't see [excessive caregiving] as something benign at all.

Nor do I. It results in enabling behavior that harms the BPDer by removing opportunities for her to confront her own issues and learn how to grow. Such growth is less likely when you are so over-protective that you protect her from suffering the logical consequences of her own actions.

 

Yet, lest we be too quick to label such over-protection "controlling," we should consider what that protection is intended to do. In MB's case, he was trying to keep his depressed exGF from killing herself with a third suicide attempt using a handful of powerful pills. In my case, I was following my exW to bridges when she was deeply depressed and suicidal. I also ran down to the subway station on two occasions after she had called me and claimed she was going to jump in front of the next train. I also spent a small fortune taking her to weekly visits for 15 years to six different psychologists.

 

Hence, for caregivers like MB and me, walking away from a sick loved one -- even when that is exactly what we should be doing -- carried with it the potential for death to our loved ones and years of grief and guilt for ourselves. Given what was at stake, I believe it is a mistake to dismiss our reluctance to walk away from sick loved ones as our somehow being "controlling."

 

What is far more helpful for us to know, IMO, is that our personal boundaries were far too low, we were far too enmeshed, we were trying to achieve the impossible, we were harming by being enabling/over-protective, our efforts to build trust were futile, and our very presence was triggering the BPDer's fears of abandonment and engulfment. Significantly, NONE of those dysfunctional behaviors -- all of which we exhibited big time -- is captured by the term "controlling."

[Emilia]

What is far more helpful for us to know, IMO, is that our personal boundaries were far too low, we were far too enmeshed, we were trying to achieve the impossible, we were harming by being enabling/over-protective, our efforts to build trust were futile, and our very presence was triggering the BPDer's fears of abandonment and engulfment. Significantly, NONE of those dysfunctional behaviors -- all of which we exhibited big time -- is captured by the term "controlling."

It's the difference between intent and result though, isn't it? The reason why I'm insisting on this is because I want to understand my own motives to break out of the cycle. The result was enabling (though that's quite a strong word) but I see my motive as control. From my point of view that's what matters.

[Emilia]

I reasonated with Downtowns post about understanding their crazy behaviour. I just spent too much time trying to understand it. I really want the OP to avoid this. My questions leade to more questions and by the time I was done, I knew them better then I knew myself and that was the saddest part of all for me. I knew them better then any person on the planet because I see past the facade they give everyone else. I knew what caused their behaviours yet I couldn't communciate with either. I could never 'fix' them and this drove my crazy.

 

I understand now I could study them until 2048 and still not be able 'fix' them. They just operate on another wavelength. I have sent emails and got replies from them and you would think we are talking about two different things. Doesn't matter who good you communicate, how emotionally healthy you are the languauges you speak are different and will forever remain that way.

 

The saddest part on my crusade to fix them was that I hadn't a clue how to fix myself.Co depedents do that. Look outwards to avoid inwards. I think with the OP there is a lot more happening under the surface here but the truth is I am only guessing.

 

OP I will post some articles that will help you understand more what is happening..Just don't spent too much time on this. I said I wouldn't either so try not be naive..

Very very good post Mack. It certainly resonates. It's how I feel when I read some of the BPD-related threads sometimes.

[mbgeezle]

I no I need to take the focus off my ex and put it onto me. Which I am doing. But if I can understand her behaviour patterns, it'll help me to come to terms with how she left me as she did, how she lied to me etc. Even if you can critique one instance I've mentioned that shows the strongest signs of bpd or some kind of mental disorder, it would help. Not that there isn't many instances. Also if downtown could outline the issues in her past that I mentioned that cold relate to how she is today.

 

I've thought about her less and less over the past few days. I feel happy for the first time in along time. I've got plenty to look forward to in life right now and it's keeping me busy. I think it's because I was so used to emotionally supporting my ex, my life felt empty for a time, like I'd lost all purpose in life. This is where the co dependency shone through I think. Any comments and/or advice from what I've written about her past etc would be greatly received.

 

My past isn't the greatest. I have no relationship with my mother, which in all honesty doesn't bother me as she is toxic. My grandmother died 4 years ago and she was a mother to me. I was an extremely angry person for a good year or so and drunk alcohol most days. I got myself sorted and now this. No way will I let this beat me. I've been through enough heartache to last a lifetime. This is why I don't think for a very long time, I'll let anyone get close enough to hurt me.

[flitzanu]

i'm trying to understand how it helps you accept what's happened if you can label her as having a disorder. and honestly no one is going to be able to tell you unless they are a practicing shrink and your ex is going to sessions with them.

 

anyone and everyone could have any number of those "traits" at any given time because of external influences or situations, and then those traits may be gone in a day, week, month, year...and that doesn't mean they had something "wrong" just that something was on their mind and they behaved in a fashion they only knew, in order to handle it.

 

your best bet is to assume your ex is perfectly sane, as sane as any of us, or as yourself, and that she made human decisions with what she did.