The infamous 'why' thread

[thefooloftheyear]

For the most part I agree with your sentiments. I'm assuming that your a strict approach towards parenting is tempered with lots of love, patience and understanding.

 

My stepfather was a domineering control freak. He controlled my every move and made every decision for me, right down to how I wore my hair, what I could listen to, what I could see, who I could be friends with, what I should think and feel. I had no privacy. Snooping through my room and private things was a common occurrence. The control he exerted over me when I 9 yrs old was the same control he exerted over me when I was 15. There was no room for me to spread my wings, try out my own independence or make my own mistakes. He thought he was raising the perfect child but actually he was raising me to be helpless unless I had someone telling me what to do. Also the control he thought he had over me was a total figment of his imagination. When I grew old enough to rebel I rebelled way harder then most teens because I was so desperate to escape his dictatorship and I was able to find lots of trouble for myself in spite of his strict regiment over my life.

 

I'm sure you are nothing like my stepfather and I applaud your efforts to be a good parent who is involved in their daughters life. Just saying that too much control can backfire too. Kids need to learn how to be independent and think for themselves. If they haven't learned how to take control of themselves and their own lives then when they grow up and leave home it's like throwing them to a pack of wolves.

 

No, as a matter of fact, I am NOT a control freak...We have given her more leeway than most, because she is a really good kid with a very mature outlook on life..In fact, id probably exposed her to more than most parents have because i know she can handle it..The type of crap your stepfather did was just overbearing and nutty..Im sure he had your best interests..

 

Dont get me wrong I am not being judgemental of anyone. Stuff happens..

 

I just cannot for the life of me believe that my 16 year old daughter would be sucking a 40 year old mans dick and I(or her mother) wouldnt know about it..I think I would sooner see a Sasquatch walk across the front yard.

 

And I stand by my previous statement...If I did find out the only one the cops would be coming to see is me, after I bury his ass...

 

TFY

[Lady2163]

Lady,

 

Your question made me think of reasons to how we, OW, arrived to be in an affair. There are many reasons. For me, I was trying to fill an emotional need. I needed someone to connect with as I was feeling so alone. Some say, AP are seeking validation of their worth. Some AP may not feel they deserve any love so they settle for less. I felt I deserved more in my life and sought what I was looking for in my affair (although it was wrong while married.)

 

You know yourself. If you are happy with your life, none else has the right to comment or criticize. Your question is provocative and got me thinking. I think it is always a good thing to be introspective and learn from our past to make changes that lead to a brighter future.

 

I'm very happy my post seved a purpose for you!

[Lady2163]

No, as a matter of fact, I am NOT a control freak...We have given her more leeway than most, because she is a really good kid with a very mature outlook on life..In fact, id probably exposed her to more than most parents have because i know she can handle it..The type of crap your stepfather did was just overbearing and nutty..Im sure he had your best interests..

 

Dont get me wrong I am not being judgemental of anyone. Stuff happens..

 

I just cannot for the life of me believe that my 16 year old daughter would be sucking a 40 year old mans dick and I(or her mother) wouldnt know about it..I think I would sooner see a Sasquatch walk across the front yard.

 

And I stand by my previous statement...If I did find out the only one the cops would be coming to see is me, after I bury his ass...

 

TFY

 

Once again, I'm not saying it will happen to your daughter, but you should know, I was not a great athelete, I was not a fantastic student, but I was a great people person with adults. I was supposedly mature. I was a dream to have as a teenager compared to my siblings, and they weren't horribly difficult, but had to be watched closer. I could be left alone for days at a time. No, I wasn't abandoned, I worked my summer job, went over to a friend of the family for supper, went to best friends house, came home and went to bed. Repeat the next day. My parents never would have done that with my siblings. I never got into mischief, never broke curfew, didn't smoke until I was 18 and probably had fewer than 10 drinks before it was legal (this doesn't count the huge scoops of green ice cream I ate as an after school snack for several days before I found out it was Grasshopper and not mint ice cream...). I was never boy crazy.

 

I'm just trying to let you know if I lived next door to you growing up, you would have been stunned to know what I was keeping a secret.

 

I gave you a couple of warning signs that most people might overlook. I can also tell you that my bedroom was covered with pictures of Christopher Reeve, Harrison Ford, Tom Selleck, Dirk Benedict, Stephen Collins, Bruce Boxleitner and Jon Erik Hexum all long before I was 16. So, something about men appealed to me.

 

I'll help you bury the body if you need it....

[Lady2163]

Family of Origins, basically the story you told in your original post.

 

Yes, he told me that. But I did google FOO and F.O.O. without applicable results.

 

I just never heard it in my classes or at places I worked. We did have "famiy history" or "family background" in the files.

[happy stillmore]

Sweetiepie,

 

And man did xMM fill my emotional needs! He was my best friend. I shared everything with him. That is why the NC is horrible for me. I'm miserable with learning to live my life without him. I still am fighting the urge on a daily basis to contact him and ask the zillion questions I have. A part of me longs for his sweet words. I read an article once about breakups. The article said to talk to yourself using the same terms your ex called you. I miss how his words melted my heart. But, I have learned that words are just that, words. Actions speak louder than words.

[Lady2163]

But in your case it sounds like your parents weren't staying close enough to you. They just let you go do your own thing while they were focusing their attention on your siblings. Did it ever bother you that they would leave you to yourself and your own activities for days at a time? That they were fine with not seeing or communicating with you for days doesn't sound healthy either.

 

Mom called. Dad usually checked in with mom.

 

It truly didn't bother me.

 

My daily schedule was like this:

 

530 AM wake up

600 AM to 300 ish do summer job

300 PM to 530 Shower, take care of dog, next days lunch (sandwich, chips)

530 PM to 630 supper with moms best friend

630 to whenever, hang out with friends.

 

Home to sleep.

 

You know, it's just kind of a variation on them there good old days when kids disappeared after breakfast, magically reappeared for lunch, disappeared in the afternoon, showed up for supper and then would be scarce until the street lights came on. Parents knew you were at the pool, but they weren't there with you like they are now. They knew we were building forts by the creek, but didn't hover. This is also back in the day when parents didn't come to every little league game and you actually rode your bicycle to get somewhere. You had a watch, you could tell time, you knew where you had to be and when.

 

Wow. Off topic, but fun.

 

Oh, one other thing, I'm the youngest. Siblings were gone.

[Lady2163]

Awww...I'm making people nostalgic!

 

I do think the abuse stunted my emotional maturity and screwed up my morals. I remember asking him if what we were doing was wrong because of God and religion. I wish I could remember what he said, but he convinced me it was all right.

 

Just because your parents were bank robbers, doesn't mean you have to be a bank robber.

 

True, but by that definition...

 

Just because I was molested as a teen, doesn't mean I will be a molester.

 

I do own my mistakes. BUT, I very rarely (if ever) was the aggressor or initiator in the relationships I had with married men. Hence, I take my part of the blame and realize I may have not had the skills to decline.

 

I'm really not trying to argue with what you are saying. This incident was a trauma that altered my personality. Even with my education and work experience, it still took me a long time to have my A-ha moment.

 

I'm in my mid 40s.

[Got it]

I think it is very hard for parents to reconcile that things can happen that they may not be aware of. There can be a great deal of undercurrent without a ripple on the still pond.

[Pierre]

Lady:

OK, I cannot resist. I think you are struggling with a few issues. I am going to try to be gentle, but I do recognize sometimes my posts sound a bit blunt. Underneath all your writing I see a noble person that has develop a system to cope.

 

When I was 16 years old I was seduced by my boss at my part - time job. He was 20 years older than I was. It was a planned, sophisticated targeted seduction.

It was a sick, sick thing. He was able to mold me into doing whatever he wanted sexually....which in this case was usually oral sex for him. We didn't have sex for 1.5 years and he insisted he could keep me satisfied with his hands.

OK, you were the victim of the typical cheating MM that recognizes a weakness and knows how to exploit that weakness. For whatever reason you had a weakness at age 16 and MM took advantage.

 

All my hormones woke up the first time he gave me an orgasm. I'm stunned I passed my classes because I rarely heard anything the teachers said, I was solely focused on how to get my next orgasm. They were not very frequent; it was all about his pleasure.

 

Truthfully, I believe you were starving for attention and kept this up despite the fact that you rarely had an orgasm and that he made you lie to his wife and kids. The evil in this man was repulsive, but he probably thought it was OK because you were willing.

 

The question that begs an answer is why an adult? You said:

 

Father's occupation may have been a hindrance to having normal interaction with teenaged boys. (Think Preacher, teacher, law enforcement, etc).

I would like to hear more about your relationship with your dad. How close were the two of you?

 

I've always wondered about the correlation between abuse and cheaters and the correlation between abuse and other women/other men.

 

Chester the molester and I have mutual friends on Facebook. He's never added me. I doubt I'd accept.

 

So you know about the whereabouts of this guy and he knows about you through Face Book. How do you feel about him now? You call him a molester and rightfully so, but what is your visceral reaction to him. As someone else said: Your used the word doubt.

 

Why do you think this teen sexual abuse led you to date mostly married men?

 

I have two degrees in Psychology and still hadn't heard FOO...

 

It is not a medical or psych term. It is more like an Internet abbreviation-----like LOL, IMO, BTY, etc.

 

 

To the best of my knowledge, I'm a bit of an oddity in my family, not in a bad way, just I took a different path.

Sure, it happens all the time, in family dynamics there is often a member that takes a darker different route. Sometimes, this person feels neglected and no one in the family knows. This neglect while growing up is crucial in the shaping of your personality. In your case they simply took you for granted and assumed everything was great with you. The attention adult M provided was malignant, but nevertheless was attention. I suspect a daughter with a strong healthy bond with her dad would have walked away immediately. I think the why is in there.

 

I was not a great athlete, I was not a fantastic student, but I was a great people person with adults. I was supposedly mature. I was a dream to have as a teenager compared to my siblings, and they weren't horribly difficult, but had to be watched closer. I could be left alone for days at a time. No, I wasn't abandoned.

 

 

Exactly! They took you for granted and at some level you probably needed the same level (or more) attention from your parents. Growing up in this manner made a mark on you.

 

I never got into mischief, never broke curfew, didn't smoke until I was 18 and probably had fewer than 10 drinks before it was legal (this doesn't count the huge scoops of green ice cream I ate as an after school snack for several days before I found out it was Grasshopper and not mint ice cream...). I was never boy crazy.

 

 

OK, enough of that. You felt you were invisible and this probably shaped your self-esteem.

 

all long before I was 16. So, something about men appealed to me.

 

Often normal for a heterosexual women, but I still wonder about your relationship with your dad. A good dad tells his daughter how men think and gives her advice. I suspect, you received none. And your mother had no clue about you. She felt you were perfect and took you for granted.

I do own my mistakes. BUT, I very rarely (if ever) was the aggressor or initiator in the relationships I had with married men. Hence, I take my part of the blame and realize I may have not had the skills to decline.

 

I'm really not trying to argue with what you are saying. This incident was a trauma that altered my personality. Even with my education and work experience, it still took me a long time to have my A-ha moment.

 

I'm in my mid 40s.

 

All these MMs recognized the same vulnerability the molester did when you were 16.

 

And you are getting close to the AHA moment, but you are not there yet.

 

But, I admire you for your tenacity and willingness to face these issues head on. I think you are very strong remarkable woman and would never consider you damaged goods. However, I have a lot of anger at the men that take advantage of women in this manner. And the sad part is that women like you have a natural attraction for these losers.

 

 

Let me tell you why you have not reached the AHA moment yet.

 

In another thread you advised a 23 year old vulnerable young lady to go ahead and be a sex toy to a married man that was 46 years old. I almost vomited when I read your suggestion. But, I can see where you are coming from and despite your intellect and psych training those memes are hard to beat.

 

But, who knows, maybe today you would advise something different to that girl.

 

In any event I admire your search for answers and I think highly of you. None of us are perfect.

[carhill]

So do did you know 'why' you're having an affair or having a relationship with an unavailable person?

 

At the time, I thought I was falling in love with/attracted to a single person. Additionally, though I wouldn't realize it cognitively until many years later in MC, the initial meeting and stages happened only a month or so after my father's death, hence, subconsciously, there was a vulnerability to emotional attachment. Additionally, not having experienced such an emotional attachment prior, there was no frame of reference for the process or for understanding my own psychology in such matters. It was all 'new'.

 

The process would come full circle many years later, when caring for my remaining parent who was terminally ill, where I felt the emotional abandonment in my marriage and, without cognitively working through the reasons and ramifications of the choice, sought to revisit that emotional attachment of decades prior. It felt like a life preserver to a drowning person. Of course, it was all in my mind. Going through the process of caring for a mentally ill person, as well as MC with a psychologist, taught me a lot about my mind, psychology and 'whys'. In life, there are always lessons to be learned.

 

Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately in the realm of having tools for dealing with the real world, my FOO was two loving parents who married for life. If I had to fault them for anything, it was teaching me to see the best in people, with insufficient education about the worst in people. A more balanced approach might have helped, IDK. In any event, there is no FOO in my 'why'. It was all on me. Good luck.

[Pierre]

I think too often people want to focus on FOO. In another forum I visit, I read how a BS and a marriage counselor basically badgered the WS to have an FOO issue. Every counseling session was focused on the WS past, trying to dig up this big, dark secret from his childhood and family. And in every session he could only respond with "I have nothing. I had a GREAT childhood, and I love my family". Keep in mind this is the BS posting, and could have colored the story anyway she wanted, but it was quite obvious in her writing that she was trying to force an issue on him. When she could not she turned him having the typical nuclear family into an FOO issue. Right down to her one complaint, which I can't forget because I thought it was so ludicrous:

 

and then went on to say he has mommy issues. If talking to your mom once a week for about an hour = emotional incest than I am as guilty as they come.

 

Sometimes I really think people want to blame the upbringing. They want something that they can point at and say: "THIS. If it wasn't for THIS s/he would not be the way." But sometimes it is just circumstances and where one is emotionally that leads to an affair. It doesn't always have to be so complicated.

 

 

I have to agree. One often sees an outlier is families that are near perfect. It happens, no one is born perfect. IMO, these cases are very hard to treat because there is no obvious cause of for the erratic behavior.

 

 

I can see why a counselor wants to find a reason. When there is no reason counseling becomes much more difficult.

[Pierre]

Lady,

 

Your question made me think of reasons to how we, OW, arrived to be in an affair. There are many reasons. For me, I was trying to fill an emotional need. I needed someone to connect with as I was feeling so alone. Some say, AP are seeking validation of their worth.

 

You are normal, that is a common reason.

 

I think Lady felt invisible in her home. Some people cannot tolerate being taken for granted.

[Pierre]

Does it have to be a rant? I was just telling a story and my opinion on FOO.

 

IMO, a troubled kid from a nice FOO tends to get it together somewhere down the road.

 

 

A troubled kid from a horrendous FOO has more difficulties climbing out of the hole.

[Pierre]

Sometimes great FOO spoil kids. NO family is perfect.

[Lady2163]

Pierre - geez you have the quote function cornered, don't you?

 

Sometimes I do think you are too blunt AND don't think how people will interpret tone. I've looked at some of your posts and wondered if you're being sarcastic. But your response here is fine by me.

 

By today's standards, I was a neglected child and raised by wolves.

 

My dad had four children and maybe changed 12 diapers in his life. He would read the paper in the morning, while the baby cried for a bottle and my mom heated it up on the stove. Men just didn't do childcare.

 

I don't think I had an awful relationship with him. It was so different than it is today, that no matter what I say, it is going to sound unreal.

 

I just don't think daddy issues are your 'why'

 

You need to give me a pass on saying, "I doubt I would..." it's a figure of speech that I use as a softer 'no'. But still - no.

 

I wouldn't accept a friend request, but neither would I confront him. I'd just ignore it.

 

How do I feel about him now?

Well, he's pretty damn old now...I know, I know not what youre looking for. Chester may have gotten what he deserved, but I can't disguise the details enough to still stick to the truth. I will say that Chester's wife had an affair and divorced him. He was fired from a fast food place for what the rumor mill said was inappropriate behavior and run out of town. Unofficially.

 

I think he's a predator, I think he's a sick manipulator and control freak. I despise him and what he did to me. I wouldnt let him be around any children in my life.

 

I joined the military, not a common thing for my family. I am more conservative politically than they are. I went to college as an adult. I divorced and 14 years later have yet to remarry. I chose not to have kids. These are ways I'm different, but geez, I don't think darker.

 

Pierre, I think universally you see the good in everyone and that reflects in your posts. I think you have a strong desire to want to protect women.

 

I don't see the 23 year old as vulnerable as you do. My knee jerk reaction was to assume she's had some sexual experience and experience in how to...tease, flirt and manipulate men. Plus, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to most sex issues. I've heard damn near everything there is to hear. I've had friends use me as security at both swingers and bdsm parties. You see a LOT of interstimg couples at those parties. I don't judge my friends who participate in those fringes. I made a half hearted attempt to explore, but just not for me. So if she wants to have a rebound fling with a mman twice her age, if she really believes she can handle it and knows all the downsides and consequences ..okay by me.

 

Got to go

[Pierre]

Pierre - geez you have the quote function cornered, don't you?

 

 

That must be the new way of stating i have no life because i post too much. :laugh:

 

 

Sometimes I do think you are too blunt AND don't think how people will interpret tone. I've looked at some of your posts and wondered if you're being sarcastic. But your response here is fine by me.

 

 

My wife and ex-wife both say I can be incredibly sarcastic without trying too hard. I have done much worse; I am trying to clean my posts.

 

By today's standards, I was a neglected child and raised by wolves.

 

Talking about sarcasm, not sure how to interpret this. Please expand.

 

My dad had four children and maybe changed 12 diapers in his life. He would read the paper in the morning, while the baby cried for a bottle and my mom heated it up on the stove. Men just didn't do childcare.

 

I don't think I had an awful relationship with him. It was so different than it is today, that no matter what I say, it is going to sound unreal.

 

I just don't think daddy issues are your 'why'

 

Your posts screamed you were starving for attention growing up. And perhaps you got less for being a good kid.

 

Pierre, I think universally you see the good in everyone and that reflects in your posts. I think you have a strong desire to want to protect women.

I don't judge bad behaviors because all of us can do that and more. I tend to look at a person's heart. If i see a good heart that is all I care. I cannot stand bad behaviosr and a bad hearts. What is the point?

 

 

yes, for me women are extremely special and I could never use a woman. My younger brother is the same way. To this date he can only date women that he genuinely likes. He has never used a women for sex. He is better than me!

 

I don't see the 23 year old as vulnerable as you do. My knee jerk reaction was to assume she's had some sexual experience and experience in how to...tease, flirt and manipulate men. Plus, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to most sex issues.

This is where your memes come into play. It is not about being conservative or liberal. This 23 year old was heading for trouble with this old man.

 

I've heard damn near everything there is to hear. I've had friends use me as security at both swingers and bdsm parties. You see a LOT of interstimg couples at those parties. I don't judge my friends who participate in those fringes. I made a half hearted attempt to explore, but just not for me. So if she wants to have a rebound fling with a mman twice her age, if she really believes she can handle it and knows all the downsides and consequences ..okay by me.

 

Got to go

 

Kinky is fine by me.

[jlola]

Awww...I'm making people nostalgic!

 

I do think the abuse stunted my emotional maturity and screwed up my morals. I remember asking him if what we were doing was wrong because of God and religion. I wish I could remember what he said, but he convinced me it was all right.

 

Just because your parents were bank robbers, doesn't mean you have to be a bank robber.

 

True, but by that definition...

 

Just because I was molested as a teen, doesn't mean I will be a molester.

 

I do own my mistakes. BUT, I very rarely (if ever) was the aggressor or initiator in the relationships I had with married men. Hence, I take my part of the blame and realize I may have not had the skills to decline.

 

I'm really not trying to argue with what you are saying. This incident was a trauma that altered my personality. Even with my education and work experience, it still took me a long time to have my A-ha moment.

 

I'm in my mid 40s.

 

 

I am so sorry to hear what you have gone through as a teen. I have a friend who had a "relationship" with an older man who lived nearby. She was adopted and had a special needs sister. She always felt alone and the man made her feel "special". She would talk about him years later as someone who cared about her. She could not see he "molested" her. She too focused on the feel good aspects of it.

 

She finds emotionally unavailable men(married,immature,personality disordered men) to have relationships with.

 

I can never forget a girl in my junior High. We shared the same birthday. She came from a latin background like me. I remember her being 11 or 12 and sharing with a few girls how she went to a grown man's house instead of going to school on days so his wife would not be there. It makes me ill to think about it . Made me ill back then.

 

Another friend across the street would go to MM's house at 12 or 13. She invited me a few times. I declined. I wonder what would have happened if I did. How my world would have changed.I stayed a virgin till my early 20's, which I believe gave me enough time o see and assess some really crazy things.

 

I wonder what emotional and relationship issues all these girls have now. I think the neighborhood I lived , the culture and the fact parents would have been too embarrassed to press charges and expose the abuse, thinking it would taint the daughters kept the men safe.

 

People do not understand how everyone you allow in your life emotionally and sexually impacts you.

[Pierre]

A male friend had sex with a grown woman at age 14. We were so envious of him. For us men that is supposed to be a great adventure.

 

I have vague memories of wrestling in bed with my baby-sitter when I was 7 or 8 years old. That's about it! At that age I thought the leg scissor lock on my torso was pretty cool.

 

I don't mean to diminish the atrocity of child molestation, but for men (if done by a woman) there seems to be little trauma. However, when done by a man it seems to be devastating. It certainly modifies the rest of that person's life.

[Phoenix32]

After reading a lot of things in different parts of this forum and others, I think I have reached a better understanding of why I have done some of the things that I did. I married and emotionally unavailable man who didn't really like kids because my daughter had been molested before and I knew this man would be safe because he could hardly stand being in the same room with her. Of course, he treated her like crap, but even she realized that he would not try anything sexual with her and felt safe about that. Now 8 years later, I regret this choice and wish I had someone who would take care of me and our child, and be more available emotionally. Enter the OM, who met those needs for me. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I am starting to realize some things about myself and what makes me tick. I don't know yet what to do about it all, but a little self awareness should help.

[Lady2163]

Pierre

 

No, I wasn't dogging you about being on here, I'm struggling with my tablet and the quote function.

 

Raised by wolves in regards to the helicopter parents of today.

 

I wanted to think about your idea of whether or not I was invisible, rather than immediately dismiss it.

 

I just don't think I was invisible. Maybe raised to be too self-reliant, too early.

 

Let's get off FOO, I've told all the details I'm going to tell for now for my own privacy.