Curious about relationship milestones

[Betterthanthis13]

How do they work in A's?

 

For OW/OM's that fall in love with their AP's (and want them to leave the BS's and start over with them), do you make plans ? What kind of timeline did it follow?

 

I was thinking about when two single people are dating, (all people have different timelines of course) but its been my experience with the people i know that by around 3 months they are exclusive, and by 6 months to two years they are making plans to move in together or get engaged...

 

Is it different in A's? Was 3 month mark anything significant? Did you find yourself wanting to put pressure on the WS? What did WS say? Is there a different protocol for A's that outsiders are not aware of?

[bentleychic]

My MM told me a timeline from day 1. I knew the time line to expect X would happen here, X would happen here, X would happen here. So far, they've all happened. A BIG X towards moving on is coming up in a few months. I'm anxious to see if it actually does.

 

I've already been told that we will be engaged, we will get married, etc., etc., etc., but I'm sure plenty of OW have heard that plenty of times. Actions, not words are what counts. We'll see...if I'm still here by then. (My new famous take on this relationship. )

 

(I should also say that I was AGAINST marrying ever again in the future. MM is the one that pushed it and encouraged it for the future until I couldn't imagine not wanting it. *sigh*)

[LilGirlandOW]

The only milestone is at 5mnths he said ILY.

 

From the begining the need to "set out rules, etc" really prevents some of the normal relationship milestones from naturally occuring, i think. beacuse before Ea turned PA we had a conversation regarding it effecting his job, didnt care about it effecting his M, and also about our sexual exclusivity.

 

I'm assuming my MM future fakes me with talks of a future, but not engraved plans. And the "wish I met you 17yrs ago", that would have put me at 14, and him 29!

[cocorico]

How do they work in A's?

 

For OW/OM's that fall in love with their AP's (and want them to leave the BS's and start over with them), do you make plans ? What kind of timeline did it follow?

 

I was thinking about when two single people are dating, (all people have different timelines of course) but its been my experience with the people i know that by around 3 months they are exclusive, and by 6 months to two years they are making plans to move in together or get engaged...

 

Is it different in A's? Was 3 month mark anything significant? Did you find yourself wanting to put pressure on the WS? What did WS say? Is there a different protocol for A's that outsiders are not aware of?

 

I've never done the dating thing so I can't compare, but in my A it was initially supposed to be just a fling, then became a part-time R with no expectations, and then we decided we wanted to be together and set out a plan for that to happen, which we followed.

 

I guess the "timelines" and "milestones" will depend on the individuals, their circumstances and their own individual timelines. Some people take things slowly, others jump right in, and others are happy to take things as they come..

[Lady2163]

I don't have milestones or anything like that, so it's interesting to read what others have to say!

[Got it]

I think it varies, I don't recall any milestone at 3 months. But we celebrated other milestones and holidays as they came. We had a timeline in place so followed things as such.

 

I don't know, I don't recall celebrating things then any differently than how we do it now. But I am awful with dates so can't remember crap anyway.

[hippetyhop]

3 months--he said ILY

8 months- his wife became suspicious

9 months- I ended it

2 weeks later- he broke NC

[MissBee]

3 months--he said ILY

8 months- his wife became suspicious

9 months- I ended it

2 weeks later- he broke NC

 

I know you're probably not being funny, but I thought this was hilarious .

 

There were milestones like first kiss, him saying ILY first, first vacation...but it didn't follow the milestone of my single relationships which because they're open, you assume it will progress and could possibly lead to a more permanent commitment and integration into their life, so the longer you are together, things naturally happen over time. With the affair, it didn't have that same orientation. There was a glass ceiling in terms of, after a while there was nowhere to go and we hit a cap on the progression...and it felt unnatural for me, as my feelings increased and I wanted more commitment, more integration, more progression, which is normal when you're in love with someone, but it couldn't happen.

 

With my single boyfriend there were some of the same milestones like first kiss, first sleep over, first ILYs, but also, first double date with his bestfriend and his best friend's wife, first meeting of his family, first Thanksgiving with his family/mine, first attending a wedding with him as his date...and things like that, which integrated me more into his life with the rest of the people he loves and put us in situations where we could see the potential for more and where his friends and family started making hints about us and our future. With the A...none of those other things really happened and it just felt very unnatural to be with someone for so long yet you've never met their family, never been to their home, never done lots of things normal couples do...and that just made me angry, frustrated and slapped me with the reality that we were in a stunted state of development with nowhere else to go, unless he decided to leave...but while it was an A, there was absolutely nowhere else to go and grow as a couple and I felt very boxed in.

Edited July 29, 2013 by MissBee

[hippetyhop]

I know you're probably not being funny, but I thought this was hilarious .

 

There were milestones like first kiss, him saying ILY first, first vacation...but it didn't follow the milestone of my single relationships which because they're open, you assume it will progress and could possibly lead to a more permanent commitment and integration into their life, so the longer you are together, things naturally happen over time. With the affair, it didn't have that same orientation. There was a glass ceiling in terms of, after a while there was nowhere to go and we hit a cap on the progression...and it felt unnatural for me, as my feelings increased and I wanted more commitment, more integration, more progression, which is normal when you're in love with someone, but it couldn't happen.

 

With my single boyfriend there were some of the same milestones like first kiss, first sleep over, first ILYs, but also, first double date with his bestfriend and his best friend's wife, first meeting of his family, first Thanksgiving with his family/mine, first attending a wedding with him as his date...and things like that, which integrated me more into his life with the rest of the people he loves and put us in situations where we could see the potential for more and where his friends and family started making hints about us and our future. With the A...none of those other things really happened and it just felt very unnatural to be with someone for so long yet you've never met their family, never been to their home, never done lots of things normal couples do...and that just made me angry, frustrated and slapped me with the reality that we were in a stunted state of development with nowhere else to go, unless he decided to leave...but while it was an A, there was absolutely nowhere else to go and grow as a couple and I felt very boxed in.

 

Haha! I've learned through this journey you sometimes have to sit back and have a laugh at it I'm glad I was able to make you smile

 

I think he more or less took it like a regular single relationship. He said we would have our "date" nights, etc.

 

I totally see where you are coming from in terms of milestones, hitting the ceiling, and feeling boxed in. I did at 9 months. I'm not sure why that was the magical month number for me, but I knew nothing would change.

 

I'm not sure if you read my prior post where he broke NC, but he wanted to know what I meant by us revisiting under different circumstances (which means when he's divorced). The cap was there, and I couldn't settle for that anymore, yet, I didn't want him to choose between him and her because I knew he wouldn't, and, its not fair for me to impose that.

[Betterthanthis13]

MsBee & Hippetyhop, WOW

 

You two got me really thinking, because there are so many parallels from the other side, it's like the longer you stay with the WS the more frustrating it becomes... Relationships are supposed to progress and get better as time passes, make your life happier, and it's so freaking confusing when you are being told one thing and a totally different thing is actually happening, but you're not really sure if it is and the guy seems like he really loves you and wants to be with you. It's like you get dark, weird milestones instead of happy ones.

So while BS and AP are trying to look forward to the future, BS possibly not knowing OW exists, or thinking shes not really a threat, and OW thinking BS is on her way out of the picture, WS is enjoying the present and happily playing both women, or even more than 2 women. ugh!! Just having a grand old time. I think that is the ultimate definition of cake eater. I never want to eat cake again. Wait, never mind I don't mean that, cake is delicious.

 

Miss Bee I know your situation was different and he left, I'm speaking about mine, and some WS in general. I mean no offense to any OW who's MM is in love with them and is leaving the wife to start a new life to be with them. I'm talking specifically about cake eaters.

 

Now that it's been over for awhile and hes been in therapy and SAA he's been able to talk about it to me without trying to defend himself or make stuff up (mostly), which is interesting, but bizarre and depressing at the same time. I can't imagine getting any enjoyment out of living like that. Lying is so stressful, day after day, I can't imagine. I'd have a heart attack.

[hippetyhop]

MsBee & Hippetyhop, WOW

 

You two got me really thinking, because there are so many parallels from the other side, it's like the longer you stay with the WS the more frustrating it becomes... Relationships are supposed to progress and get better as time passes, make your life happier, and it's so freaking confusing when you are being told one thing and a totally different thing is actually happening, but you're not really sure if it is and the guy seems like he really loves you and wants to be with you. It's like you get dark, weird milestones instead of happy ones.

So while BS and AP are trying to look forward to the future, BS possibly not knowing OW exists, or thinking shes not really a threat, and OW thinking BS is on her way out of the picture, WS is enjoying the present and happily playing both women, or even more than 2 women. ugh!! Just having a grand old time. I think that is the ultimate definition of cake eater. I never want to eat cake again. Wait, never mind I don't mean that, cake is delicious.

 

Miss Bee I know your situation was different and he left, I'm speaking about mine, and some WS in general. I mean no offense to any OW who's MM is in love with them and is leaving the wife to start a new life to be with them. I'm talking specifically about cake eaters.

 

Now that it's been over for awhile and hes been in therapy and SAA he's been able to talk about it to me without trying to defend himself or make stuff up (mostly), which is interesting, but bizarre and depressing at the same time. I can't imagine getting any enjoyment out of living like that. Lying is so stressful, day after day, I can't imagine. I'd have a heart attack.

 

Very good analysis and observation.

 

After a certain time, it feels like you are stuck in the same rut. You either sink or swim. In my case, it was a bit of both. Going into the A, I really didn't know what to expect. Once emotions get involved, that is what makes it hard to leave. You bond with that person. Yes, the physical aspect is another part--but my xMM and I would sometimes go a month without seeing each other. But, he'd still call everyday and still would text me everyday.

 

As for knowing the BS is out, I never thought that. I knew I wasn't going to get a phone call that said "hey, we're separating..come on over." I didn't think the BS knew anything until he said she was told something, but even he didn't know what. The LC was worse than NC and was the ultimate deal breaker for me. Was he happily married? I think during the A they had their moments, however, he would make comments about leaving (not anytime soon--things like "I'd be surprised if we're still together in another five years, etc.) and he told me from the getgo he is in it for the kids. I took all the comments with a grain of salt, and not wishful thinking. I told him I was done until his circumstances changed..he question what I meant by circumstances change. Maybe he's seeing the light without me, but more than likely just fishing.

 

I don't know what his enjoyment was. Perhaps it was being able to get to see his kids everyday while having an emotional bond/connection to someone else. I will never know.

[Betterthanthis13]

Very good analysis and observation.

 

After a certain time, it feels like you are stuck in the same rut. You either sink or swim. In my case, it was a bit of both. Going into the A, I really didn't know what to expect. Once emotions get involved, that is what makes it hard to leave. You bond with that person. Yes, the physical aspect is another part--but my xMM and I would sometimes go a month without seeing each other. But, he'd still call everyday and still would text me everyday.

 

As for knowing the BS is out, I never thought that. I knew I wasn't going to get a phone call that said "hey, we're separating..come on over." I didn't think the BS knew anything until he said she was told something, but even he didn't know what. The LC was worse than NC and was the ultimate deal breaker for me. Was he happily married? I think during the A they had their moments, however, he would make comments about leaving (not anytime soon--things like "I'd be surprised if we're still together in another five years, etc.) and he told me from the getgo he is in it for the kids. I took all the comments with a grain of salt, and not wishful thinking. I told him I was done until his circumstances changed..he question what I meant by circumstances change. Maybe he's seeing the light without me, but more than likely just fishing.

 

I don't know what his enjoyment was. Perhaps it was being able to get to see his kids everyday while having an emotional bond/connection to someone else. I will never know.

 

I think both BS and OW could fill in the blanks in this sentence in many cases: "He really loves me, he's only with her because of _________. He will eventually come to his senses"

 

The blank could be any number of things. For an OW: The kids, he feels bad leaving, money, reputation, in laws, etc

For a BS: sex, she's stroking his ego, midlife crisis, he's insecure, I was ignoring him, I was being a bitch, etc

 

For cake eaters, it's the perfect setup. Divide and conquer. Entire countries have been taken over by this strategy. That makes me feel a little bit better I guess.. Whole countries are as dumb as I am

 

I really wouldn't feel as bad if the situation had been that we were on our way to breaking up anyway, and he legitamitely met a woman and just fell for her quickly, and didnt have the heart to break it off with me and they had an affair for a month or two, and I found out and it was like... Yeah, I'm really sorry, I didn't know how to tell you, I'm in love with so and so, we need to split up... It would still suck but what's a month or two? Even 6 months, a year, i am a human too, I can see how people can let things go that long, procrastinating and not wanting to deal with things but after that?

 

Really. It's the WS's involved in A's that drag on and on for years, and the serial cheaters like mine, who I have contempt for. How do you rob people of years of their lives? The BS and the OW, both thinking your heart is with them, dragging both of them into darker and darker holes as time ticks away, for what? I sincerely wish I could understand their motivation. I think after being on LS for awhile I can understand a lot of different WS motivations, but there are a few that still escape me. Totally no logic to them.

[Silly_Girl]

Is there a different protocol for A's that outsiders are not aware of?

 

I had no experience so couldn't 'conform to protocol', even if I were the sort who would

 

I said things as I felt them. About 4 months in it was feeling 'serious' and I wanted to either stop seeing each other or see him make a genuine commitment, because a couple of months later I was going on a month-long trip and wanted that to be the break-up, if we were going to.

 

He didn't want us to end, and said he'd move out whilst I was away. Which of course he didn't. It was a long time after.

[hippetyhop]

I think both BS and OW could fill in the blanks in this sentence in many cases: "He really loves me, he's only with her because of _________. He will eventually come to his senses"

 

The blank could be any number of things. For an OW: The kids, he feels bad leaving, money, reputation, in laws, etc

For a BS: sex, she's stroking his ego, midlife crisis, he's insecure, I was ignoring him, I was being a bitch, etc

 

For cake eaters, it's the perfect setup. Divide and conquer. Entire countries have been taken over by this strategy. That makes me feel a little bit better I guess.. Whole countries are as dumb as I am

 

I really wouldn't feel as bad if the situation had been that we were on our way to breaking up anyway, and he legitamitely met a woman and just fell for her quickly, and didnt have the heart to break it off with me and they had an affair for a month or two, and I found out and it was like... Yeah, I'm really sorry, I didn't know how to tell you, I'm in love with so and so, we need to split up... It would still suck but what's a month or two? Even 6 months, a year, i am a human too, I can see how people can let things go that long, procrastinating and not wanting to deal with things but after that?

 

Really. It's the WS's involved in A's that drag on and on for years, and the serial cheaters like mine, who I have contempt for. How do you rob people of years of their lives? The BS and the OW, both thinking your heart is with them, dragging both of them into darker and darker holes as time ticks away, for what? I sincerely wish I could understand their motivation. I think after being on LS for awhile I can understand a lot of different WS motivations, but there are a few that still escape me. Totally no logic to them.

 

You hit the nail right on with your statement.

 

He had the best of both worlds. With me ending it, who does he have to entertain him? He’ll have to find another AP unless they work on their marriage.

 

Our A went on for 9 months. He told me time and time again how I made him feel “happy” and being married, he’s just going through the motions for the kids. He would say the song Feel Again by One Republic made him think of me. (good song btw—and now he ruined it!!! LOL!). Now he won’t get that from me.

 

If he and other xMM/MW had it their way, it can easily drag on. But, the OM/OW allow it as well. Why should they file for divorce? Why should they not have their cake and eat it too? That is why I put nipped it in the butt when I saw the time fitting (had to go LC). During this time, he’s stringing the BS along as well pretending that everything is “a okay” and being on his best behavior. He’s caught himself in a web right now…..he’ll get out of it.

[Betterthanthis13]

Ugh--I like that song!!

 

I think this is the thing that really gets to me.

He has a close friend who is married, and he and his wife have an open marriage. Legit open-it is very entertaining to hear about. They go to swingers clubs, they each have girlfriends, (the wife is bi). It's total craziness. It's a sex maniacs dream come true. His friend loves it. I'm friends with his wife. It's not my thing, not long term anyway, but I'm open minded and I don't judge. They are awesome people.

 

When I first found out about his cheating, one of my first questions was, why on earth are you with me???? And not somebody like your friends wife? Why do all this?

 

I mean, I'm not a prude, and I'm open to try stuff here and there, but if you want to have sex with lots of women all the time, find a girl like your friends wife, and just be happy. Stop lying to everyone! What's the problem?

 

He was horrified by my suggestion. Disgusted.

 

I give up. Ill never understand how he can rationalize what he was doing was somehow ok, and what his friend does is gross? Please.

[bentleychic]

Ugh--I like that song!!

 

I think this is the thing that really gets to me.

He has a close friend who is married, and he and his wife have an open marriage. Legit open-it is very entertaining to hear about. They go to swingers clubs, they each have girlfriends, (the wife is bi). It's total craziness. It's a sex maniacs dream come true. His friend loves it. I'm friends with his wife. It's not my thing, not long term anyway, but I'm open minded and I don't judge. They are awesome people.

 

When I first found out about his cheating, one of my first questions was, why on earth are you with me???? And not somebody like your friends wife? Why do all this?

 

I mean, I'm not a prude, and I'm open to try stuff here and there, but if you want to have sex with lots of women all the time, find a girl like your friends wife, and just be happy. Stop lying to everyone! What's the problem?

 

He was horrified by my suggestion. Disgusted.

 

I give up. Ill never understand how he can rationalize what he was doing was somehow ok, and what his friend does is gross? Please.

 

Mine does stuff like this, too and it makes no sense to me. I see things as pretty black and white. Now my friend is a WS and has affairs, but never tells the affairs that she's married. My MM thinks this is so much worse than what we're doing. I don't like it or agree with it, but I feel like we have absolutely no room to throw stones and I don't agree that what we are doing is okay, either. He says it's different (due to certain circumstances involved and the fact that we both know he's a MM).

[hippetyhop]

Ugh--I like that song!!

 

I think this is the thing that really gets to me.

He has a close friend who is married, and he and his wife have an open marriage. Legit open-it is very entertaining to hear about. They go to swingers clubs, they each have girlfriends, (the wife is bi). It's total craziness. It's a sex maniacs dream come true. His friend loves it. I'm friends with his wife. It's not my thing, not long term anyway, but I'm open minded and I don't judge. They are awesome people.

 

When I first found out about his cheating, one of my first questions was, why on earth are you with me???? And not somebody like your friends wife? Why do all this?

 

I mean, I'm not a prude, and I'm open to try stuff here and there, but if you want to have sex with lots of women all the time, find a girl like your friends wife, and just be happy. Stop lying to everyone! What's the problem?

 

He was horrified by my suggestion. Disgusted.

 

I give up. Ill never understand how he can rationalize what he was doing was somehow ok, and what his friend does is gross? Please.

 

I liked that song too

 

To them, their actions only sound rational to themselves. He may find what his friend does is gross since they are doing multiple, and if he has a girlfriend on the side he is playing it safer? I'm just trying to see his POV, but I am as puzzled as you!

 

I know my xMM cheated on his wife on year 5; they just hit 8. He said his previous affair was with a married woman and it didn't last long nor were they emotionally invested. We were. I'm sure I won't be the last.

[Betterthanthis13]

Mine does stuff like this, too and it makes no sense to me. I see things as pretty black and white. Now my friend is a WS and has affairs, but never tells the affairs that she's married. My MM thinks this is so much worse than what we're doing. I don't like it or agree with it, but I feel like we have absolutely no room to throw stones and I don't agree that what we are doing is okay, either. He says it's different (due to certain circumstances involved and the fact that we both know he's a MM).

 

Before I came on LS, I thought, Cheating. Is. Always. Wrong. Nobody should ever do it.

 

I've read so many stories now and talked to so many people, I definitely have a much different opinion than I did before. Some things are definitely worse than others. Everything is relative. Now my opinion is, while having an affair is still always a lie, and probably extremely hurtful to a BS, I can see some circumstances where choosing that course of action could be the lesser of two evils temporarily. So I do not automatically assume anyone is making a bad choice for having an affair. That being said, I don't know your circumstances but from what i have read of your posts so far it sounds like you have your head screwed on pretty straight. And if you think you are doing the right thing for your life, and you are doing your best not to harm others, and to end the deception at some point in time, then by all means say something to your friend if she is flat out lying to people and intentionally hurting them.

I wouldn't even bring up anything about her specific behavior-she will probably just get mad and call you a hypocrite blah blah blah, but if she is doing all that lying then something must be going on with her, something is really wrong in her head to cause that kind of behavior, she might act like she's having fun but that's pretty out of control, if you are close to her maybe you can talk to her and let her know you have been thinking about her lately, wondering if everything is ok, and ask her if she wants to talk? Or just let her know you are there if she ever wants to talk.

[bentleychic]

then by all means say something to your friend if she is flat out lying to people and intentionally hurting them.

I wouldn't even bring up anything about her specific behavior-she will probably just get mad and call you a hypocrite blah blah blah, but if she is doing all that lying then something must be going on with her, something is really wrong in her head to cause that kind of behavior, she might act like she's having fun but that's pretty out of control, if you are close to her maybe you can talk to her and let her know you have been thinking about her lately, wondering if everything is ok, and ask her if she wants to talk? Or just let her know you are there if she ever wants to talk.

 

She has a LOT of emotional issues. LOT. I love her to death, but that part of her is very hard for me. She has been very up front with her husband, she's told him that she doesn't love him, she's asked for an open marriage (very recently), etc. They haven't had sex in years (cracks me up to hear guys get poo poo'ed for using that line year, but I have numerous female friends for whom this is true which makes it hard for me to believe all men that say it are lying).

 

I have suggested counseling. I've suggested divorce. I've suggested laying it all on the table for her H (who is a great guy, btw). I've suggested counseling again. She has had counseling, but none of them have clicked or worked for her. I've been sitting right across from her with her on the phone and seen her bold face lie without even flinching or batting an eye. THAT scares me. I do know that she has a lot of emotional issues AND body image issues and I'm fairly sure a lot of this is punishing and degrading herself from things she's told me.

 

I know something isn't right and I know she needs help. I try the best I can, but I truly do not know what else I can do aside from supporting her in everything EXCEPT that part of her life.

[Betterthanthis13]

She has a LOT of emotional issues. LOT. I love her to death, but that part of her is very hard for me. She has been very up front with her husband, she's told him that she doesn't love him, she's asked for an open marriage (very recently), etc. They haven't had sex in years (cracks me up to hear guys get poo poo'ed for using that line year, but I have numerous female friends for whom this is true which makes it hard for me to believe all men that say it are lying).

 

I have suggested counseling. I've suggested divorce. I've suggested laying it all on the table for her H (who is a great guy, btw). I've suggested counseling again. She has had counseling, but none of them have clicked or worked for her. I've been sitting right across from her with her on the phone and seen her bold face lie without even flinching or batting an eye. THAT scares me. I do know that she has a lot of emotional issues AND body image issues and I'm fairly sure a lot of this is punishing and degrading herself from things she's told me.

 

I know something isn't right and I know she needs help. I try the best I can, but I truly do not know what else I can do aside from supporting her in everything EXCEPT that part of her life.

 

Oh well that's different. If she's asked him for an open marriage, then it's not cheating. It's not her problem if he doesn't agree to it and he isn't having sex with her. She isn't a hostage. Why no divorce, though? And why lie to the affair guys? Maybe she feels trapped? Pretending to be single is like a way to escape reality? Or maybe she is looking to meet someone she connects with to give her the inspiration she needs to file for divorce? Either way, lying to these guys is a bad move. If she meets someone she likes they aren't going to be happy with her if she springs on them she's married after any length of time.

 

Guys don't care about the married thing if they are just looking to get laid. I've seen this first hand, been out with the couple I was talking about earlier in the open marriage and Ive seen her pick up guys with her husband in the same room. It was fascinating. I end up fielding questions like, "is this chick serious?" and I laugh and say "Yep, she's nuts but she's harmless, don't worry, her husband is cool. No, I'm not part of this nonsense, I'm the designated driver, don't touch me"

 

Haha.

[bentleychic]

Well, if he doesn't agree to the open marriage, it is still kind of her problem, IMO. No divorce b/c they are best friends and he takes care of her, from what I understand. He really IS a great guy. I don't think even she knows what she's looking for. And she always goes for these super duper sweet guys who ARE looking for a relationship and end up heart broken when she breaks up with them. (I've met a few, unfortunately, without knowing in advance that it would happen and they have all been absolute sweethearts.)