Personality quirks or truly potential for abuse?

[ladybug1984]

Hello, everyone. This is my first post and was quite pleasantly surprised to find this forum, as I had no idea something like this existed. I would like an objective opinion on my situation.

 

I have had a few long-term relationships, none of which have been abusive WITH one possible exception of my first ever relationship. My FIRST relationship and first love was a guy I dated in high school for 3-years. He did hit me a few times, and I just thought it was a normal thing because guys are 'tough' and that's the way they roll. It never was anything that caused great harm, and it happened maybe 3-4 times. Eventually we broke up because he 'fell in love' with someone else. Fast forward 12 years later, we reconnect through a series of events. He has been married twice - divorced the first wife who I know, who says he pulled a weapon on her, punched walls, threatened and was extremely abusive. She chalked it up to being young and immature. His second wife I don't know, so I can't ask, just know that the police were called on him several times, but no charges were pressed. That's a bit about his history. I know this alone should probably tell me something, but I want to think that after TWELVE YEARS someone has grown up and learned from their mistakes.

 

More on some of the 'personality quirks' which in hindsight I THINK might have really been 'red flags':

 

1. He went through my purse once without my permission. It just kind of hit me the wrong way when I discovered he did it (I never asked, so he might have admitted to it), but I never said anything. Now I am wondering if it was some kind of control thing.

 

2. He admitted to throwing dishes and objects at the wall with this 2nd wife. I thought, so what, he has a temper. As long as he didn't throw them at her, right? Again, normal behavior for a guy (and some girls, I would guess)

 

3. I was told constantly how what I was wearing was out of style, too short, too long, etc. I thought 'well he cares enough to notice', so I was actually somewhat grateful!

 

4. We were at a park downtown and he made us leave because he claims a guy was gawking at me, though I really didn't think he was. And if it were even true, I thought it was endearing that he was a smidgen jealous. Now I am wondering if there was a possessive streak brewing.

 

5. He would get really upset if I didn't comply with certain requests. Not MAD upset, but threaten to not talk to me for a week or something to that effect. This really sounded juvenile to me, yet it happened.

 

He talked so much about how we were soul mates and everything he liked I liked, we just seemed to connect on so many levels. I finally just broke it off because all of this was starting to add up and I started questioning why SOOO many things were happening that just didn't seem right. If it was ONE thing, then maybe, but all of this?? I truly cared about him and I think he was my first true love, but sometimes it takes more, right?

 

So - my questions:

 

1. I know the past abuse was obviously abuse now that I have had other relationships and know that they are not all like that. But can a person change after 10 years? He says he has and that he almost was killed because of stupid choices and that his eyes are now opened. Since I have become reacquainted with him, he has never been violent.

 

2. Are ANY of these other things red flags or are they truly just personality quirks? I may be reading too much into this and would truly like to know.

 

Thanks in advance from ladybug!

[Downtown]

Are ANY of these other things red flags or are they truly just personality quirks? I may be reading too much into this and would truly like to know.

Ladybug, I agree with RedWing. They sound like red flags to me. If I were you, I would be especially concerned if I were to see most of the following behaviors occurring:

• 1. Black-white thinking, wherein he categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
  
• 2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
  
• 3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
  
• 4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents him from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
  
• 5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
  
• 6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
  
• 7. Low self esteem;
  
• 8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
  
• 9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in his expecting you to “be there” for him on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
  
• 10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image he validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
  
• 11. Lack of impulse control, wherein he does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
  
• 12. Complaining that all his previous GFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated him well;
  
• 13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
  
• 14. Relying on you to center and ground him, giving him a sense of direction because his goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
  
• 15. Relying on you to sooth him and calm him down, when he is stressed, because he has so little ability to do self soothing;
  
• 16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
  
• 17. Taking on the personality of whatever person he is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
  
• 18. Always convinced that his intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that he regards his own feelings as self-evident facts, despite his inability to support them with any hard evidence.
  

If most of those behaviors ring a bell, I suggest you read more about BPD traits in my post at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735. Take care, Ladybug.

[2sunny]

It's not normal behavior by him. His pattern has been consistent.

 

There's not one single reason you could give me that might make me think it would be a good choice for yourself to EVER be around him.

[Els]

I wouldn't necessarily call it 'abuse' per se, but definitely red flags there. A pattern of behaviour can be bad and destructive to a R without needing to qualify as abuse.

 

Probably better off without him.

[pie2]

Are ANY of these other things red flags or are they truly just personality quirks? I may be reading too much into this and would truly like to know.

 

Thanks in advance from ladybug!

 

There are clearly red flags. I recommend attending a support group with others who are in abusive or unhealthy relationships.

 

I personally do NOT see enough information that would suggest Borderline Personality Disorder. Your BF's probably got some issues, but only a trained professional can provide any sort of diagnosis.

 

If most of those behaviors ring a bell, I suggest you read more about BPD traits in my post at Crazy I think but I love her anyway. Take care, Ladybug.

 

Downtown,

 

I respect that you seem to have had a very significant experience with someone who was diagnosed with BPD. But anyone who displays poor relational skills (i.e. a temper or jealousy) seems to have BPD, according to things you have posted.

 

Just based on what the OP posted, there are so many other things that could be going on (mood disorder, relational problems, antisocial problems...who knows!??), that jumping to the BPD conclusion is somewhat shortsighted.

 

I find it curious when an OP is seeking advice, and the advice given is to immediately place blame on the "offending" party, rather than help guide the OP to figure out a feasible solution, and take control of his or her own actions.

Edited August 2, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[tbf]

1. He did hit me a few times
   
2. divorced the first wife who I know, who says he pulled a weapon on her, punched walls, threatened and was extremely abusive.
   
3. His second wife I don't know, so I can't ask, just know that the police were called on him several times, but no charges were pressed.
   

Do you know the three strikes and you're out rule in baseball?

 

He admitted to throwing dishes and objects at the wall with this 2nd wife.

That's odd. Could have sworn you claimed you didn't know and can't ask.

[KathyM]

He's definitely abusive. He has a history of abusive behavior with his first two wives, and he is exhibiting abusive behavior to you. He puts you down by criticizing your clothing. He disrespects your rights by going through your purse. He's very controlling. He has anger issues. Those are all things that are red flags for physical abuse. He has been abusive in his past relationships. His current behavior towards you IS abusive. It may not be physically abusive with you yet, but it is abusive in other ways, and it will escalate if you stay with him.

[Downtown]

Downtown, ...jumping to the BPD conclusion is somewhat shortsighted..

Pie, in the same way that I am now responding to a particular statement you made, I ask that you extend me the same courtesy. Please respond to a statement I actually wrote. Nothing I said jumps to "the BPD conclusion." Indeed, the only sentence of mine that you quote says "If most of those behaviors ring a bell...."

Your BF's probably got some issues, but only a trained professional can provide any sort of diagnosis.

I agree and have had so in many other threads. The OP is not capable of diagnosing her BF's issues. Doing so would require her to determine whether his traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having BPD or another disorder.

I personally do NOT see enough information that would suggest Borderline Personality Disorder.

Nor do I. But I do see sufficient information to suggest it would be prudent for Ladybug to learn how to spot the warning signs for BPD. Like Ladybug, I am not trained to diagnose full-blown BPD. There is a world of difference, however, between diagnosing the BF's issues and simply spotting warning signs. Before Ladybug graduated high school, she already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. She could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD.

 

She also could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And she could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, Ladybug will be able to spot strong BPD traits when and if they occur. There is nothing subtle about BPD traits such as temper tantrums and physical abuse.

 

Significantly, many behaviors Ladybug is describing -- i.e., the BF's history of abuse with two wives, his physical abuse of Ladybug many years ago, his controlling behavior, his irrational jealousy, and his temper tantrums -- are classic traits of BPD. Indeed, a friend told her that he "pulled a weapon on her, punched walls, threatened and was extremely abusive." That was the first wife. Ladybug also heard that his second wife called the police on him several times -- once involving a gun he had pulled.

 

Studies have found physical abuse to be strongly associated with BPD because BPDers have little control over their emotions and thus lack much impulse control. A British Columbia study, for example, found that 50% of the wife batterers in its study had full-blown BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of those results at Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net.

But anyone who displays poor relational skills (i.e. a temper or jealousy) seems to have BPD, according to things you have posted.

I've never said that. What I have said is that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). BPD is called a "spectrum disorder" because everyone exhibits the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether Ladybug's BF exhibits the nine BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits most BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. Because I've never met him, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless am confident that Ladybug can learn how to spot the warning signs if she will take time to read about the red flags for BPD.

[ladybug1984]

Wow, thank you ALL for the very thorough comments. This has given me a lot of food for thought. I didn't even know what some of those letters meant until I visited this board, and honestly, I just need to know if I have a potential abuser on my hands that I have managed to escape. I have no intention of having a relationship with him from this point forward, so I guess it isn't important to have a diagnosis of any sort, though it is tremendously helpful for me to know what is involved in some of these diagnosed conditions so I will know for the future! It does bother me that it took me so long to pick up on some of this stuff- and he was HONEST and told me about some of it himself (the actual abuse part - i.e., he ADMITTED to throwing things, having tantrums, having police calling - without me finding out somewhere else first, so I thought if he was honest enough and up front about it enough to TELL ME before somebody else did, that he must have truly thought he was a changed person). Maybe I was wrong on that, but I did think that honesty was worth something .

[ladybug1984]

WOW!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, I don't know how to do the quotes - THIS IS REALLY A RED FLAG??? THIS HAPPENED in this situation! I had NO idea that this could be a red flag. He did this! Is this common??? I am really beginning to wonder how I could have been so ridiculously blind

• 13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
  
• 
  

[ladybug1984]

YES, he told me this himself. Which is why I thought if he was honest enough to tell me this about himself, then he truly MUST be a changed person. I don't know the wife and couldn't ask her, HE TOLD ME directly!

 

Do you know the three strikes and you're out rule in baseball?

 

That's odd. Could have sworn you claimed you didn't know and can't ask.

[2sunny]

He may have told you himself - because it's probably public record and thought you may find out on your own anyway.

 

And by telling on himself - he figures IF you stay - then he KNOWS you know, and are WILLING to put up with his bad behavior.

 

A willing victim - there are many people that are willing to be his victim! It's just his shortcut to finding out who will stay.

[pie2]

Pie, in the same way that I am now responding to a particular statement you made, I ask that you extend me the same courtesy. Please respond to a statement I actually wrote. Nothing I said jumps to "the BPD conclusion." Indeed, the only sentence of mine that you quote says "If most of those behaviors ring a bell..."

 

I am responding to what you wrote. You provided 18 points that seemed to try to build a case about how the BF is displaying BPD traits. Your post would lead anyone to think that BPD is the logical conclusion based on your evidence. However, based on what the OP wrote, there are many conclusions that can be made, not just BPD. So, obviously offering any sort of label for the BF at this point is premature.

 

But I do see sufficient information to suggest it would be prudent for Ladybug to learn how to spot the warning signs for BPD.

 

I guess that is where we disagree. I feel that right now, Ladybug should be focusing on learning what signs of abuse are, and get treatment for her attraction to dysfunctional men (or at least this man). I think whatever the "label" the BF may have is irrelevant.

 

The only thing we can focus on here is the OP, and how she can take responsibility for her own actions, imo.

 

I've never said that. What I have said is that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). BPD is called a "spectrum disorder" because everyone exhibits the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether Ladybug's BF exhibits the nine BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do

 

The BPD label is used quite often not only by you, but by many others too. I often see BPD being a fallback answer to the "victim's" problems. It's seems like blaming the SO for all of the problems in the relationship and pointing fingers at a diagnosis is the easy way out, rather than encouraging the "healthy" partner to figure out his/her roll in the dynamic.

 

Before Ladybug graduated high school, she already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. She could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD.

 

She also could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And she could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, Ladybug will be able to spot strong BPD traits when and if they occur. There is nothing subtle about BPD traits such as temper tantrums and physical abuse.

 

However, there is a big difference between spotting a trait, and being a mental health professional who actually has the training to understand the complexities of what BPD actually entails.

 

Thank you for the discussion, Downtown.

[Downtown]

WOW!!!!!!!!!! THIS [MIRRORING] IS REALLY A RED FLAG??? THIS HAPPENED in this situation! I had NO idea that this could be a red flag. He did this!

Yes, Ladybug, it is a red flag (warning sign). Or, more accurately, the mirroring is the way in which BPD trait #3 manifests itself. That trait is "Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self."

 

Because BPDers have an unstable, fragile sense of who they are, they lack a stable, lasting sense of how they should be acting and what their goals should be. They therefore try to fit in and be accepted by mirroring the likes, preferences, and personality features of people around them. And, when they become infatuated with a person, they pull out all the stops and typically will mirror that person so perfectly that both people will be convinced they have met their "soul mates." I explain this in more detail at the link I provided above.

 

I caution that a person strongly exhibiting this trait -- or exhibiting just a few BPD traits -- cannot be said to have a strong pattern of BPD traits. To have the pattern, a person must be exhibiting at least five of the nine traits. This is true for all ten of the personality disorders (PDs) -- i.e., to be exhibiting the pattern of another PD, you must have most of the traits at a strong level.

 

A man who has serious anger issues, for example, may be angry for many different reasons. Hence, looking at the anger by itself doesn't tell you much about why he is acting in that way. Yet, when you combine that trait with a number of other strong dysfunctional traits, a pattern of behavior may be seen that increases your understanding of him ten fold.

[ladybug1984]

Wow, Downtown..............this is all so new to me. With any of the longer-term relationships I had, NONE have had any of this, so it is truly NEW. I am going to read more from those links.............and go through and count how many of those traits exist with him. Not that it will matter since there is no further relationship, but just because I truly want to know. I am amazed at how clueless I really was. I consider myself very, very enlightened now. Last I heard he was getting back with one of the ex-wives.

[white]

I can't abide violence against women. He should've been strung up by the balls at the time and, in my opinion, you made a mistake "reconnecting" with him that if I knew you I would never forgive you for, and even as strangers on the internet, makes me queasy. Why would you do that. Why would you reward a "man" like that with reconnection.

 

Anyway. They're all red flags. But not necessarily deal breakers if you can tolerate it and square it with yourself. The abuse, physical or otherwise, is the deal breaker, and you say he isn't like that now.

 

In my experience violent people (men or women) always have the streak. All it takes is that excess of stress, or the extra drink, or the run of bad days, and it comes out again. All they gain with age is a better ability to cover it up, bury it deeper. Maybe deep enough, with a secure enough lifestyle not to force it up, that you never see it again. Probably not though.

[Janesays]

Uh, NONE of that is normal.

[pie2]

I caution that a person strongly exhibiting this trait -- or exhibiting just a few BPD traits -- cannot be said to have a strong pattern of BPD traits. To have the pattern, a person must be exhibiting at least five of the nine traits. This is true for all ten of the personality disorders (PDs) -- i.e., to be exhibiting the pattern of another PD, you must have most of the traits at a strong level.

 

A Personality Disorder must be displayed in all areas of a person's life.

 

OP, your BF has the same abusive, controlling and jealous behaviors at work, with his family, with friends and in social/recreational situation, then you may see a pervasive problem.

[Downtown]

Your post would lead anyone to think that BPD is the logical conclusion based on your evidence.

Really? Aside from the list of 18 traits, my first posts contains only four sentences -- none of which claim that the BF has BPD. As I explained above, I have no way of knowing that. Again, I ask that you restrict your criticism of other members to statements actually made, not to what you imagine them to have meant.

So, obviously offering any sort of label for the BF at this point is premature.

As I said above, my objective is not to diagnose the BF with a particular disorder -- or label, as you say. Only professionals can do that. Instead, I am simply encouraging Ladybug to learn the warning signs for her own protection.

I guess that is where we disagree. I feel that right now, Ladybug should be focusing on learning what signs of abuse are....

The classic BPD traits -- temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, irrational jealousy, controlling behavior, verbal and physical abuse, and blame-shifting -- are signs of abuse. More specifically, they are signs that you likely will be abused over and over again by a person who often will perceive you as the enemy.

Ladybug should be ...get[ting] treatment for her attraction to dysfunctional men (or at least this man).

I see nothing in her description indicating she needs to seek treatments. Granted, she had a toxic relationship with an immature, abusive BF in high school. In the subsequent 12 years, however, she has not had another abusive relationship. As to the abusive BF she dated 12 years ago, she's already decided (above) not to date him again.

However, there is a big difference between spotting a trait, and being a mental health professional who actually has the training to understand the complexities of what BPD actually entails.

Yes, but people often have no idea how serious their partners' issues may be until they learn how to spot the warning signs, i.e., symptoms of a mental disorder. This is why hundreds of the best health clinics, psychiatric hospitals, and research institutions are educating the lay public about BPD traits (and symptoms of other disorders) by providing that information on their websites. They know that, when the public are able to spot the red flags for various mental disorders, they are far more likely to seek professional help -- and will do so far more quickly.

[Story]

ladybug,

 

I'm so proud of you for leaving that man. He is, without a doubt, an abuser. Abusers very, very, very, rarely change. There's a book by Lundy Bancroft called Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Controlling and Angry Men. It's a fascinating read that I highly recommend to you. It will be a real eye-opener. Please read it.