Paulie's Therapy

[Paulie]

Well...yesterday I was talking with my therapist about why I continue to be so nice in my relationships with women. I'm sort of seeing a new girl, not seriously...just sort of talking and stuff. She's leaving the States tomorrow to go back to her native country (Brazil), and tonight we're going to see each other for maybe the last time (she might come back in March).

 

What we talked about is that there's a difference between GENUINE kindness, and NEUROTIC kindness. GENUINE kindness is attractive to another person. When Tony, and other sage people who post here that suggest that we don't be too nice, I agree insofar as NEUROTIC kindness goes. There can never be enough genuine kindness.

 

When I speak of neurotic kindness, I speak of us projecting actions, words, feelings, and level of committment upon others that we wish they would in turn bestow upon us. I caught myself telling this Brazillian girl the other night that she was beautiful, and would find happiness in whatever country she was in. I continued to carry on about what a great person she was, when I realized that what I was doing was somehow trying to gain her acceptance, and maybe hope that she would feel the same way about me. Now, frankly...I'm not overwhelmingly interested in this girl...but I do LIKE her, and am not leading her on. But I think that people somehow subconciously pick up on if "kindness" is rooted in the intrinsic genuine goodness of the person, or if it's rooted in their insecurities about themselves, and need to be accepted; the latter of which is extremely unattractive.

 

This is an issue which we have labored over on this board for some time, now...yet continues to perplex me. I would like to think that I live in a world where kindness is a quality that attracts others, not drives them away. I believe that we do. Because neurotic kindness is not kindness at all...in fact, I feel it's controlling, insecure, and unhealthy.

 

REAL kindness is rooted in self confidence (which begins with a CHOICE) and branches out to others from there...again by choice, and not out of need. REAL kindness shares, sacrifices, and learns...but never rejects the self. At the most elementary level, I'll give an example of what I'm talking about.

 

SITUATION #1: A guy has been dating a lady for a while, she loves him, has expressed this verbally, as well as through her actions. He wishes to express his love and appreciation for her...he buys her flowers.

 

SITUATION #2:

 

A guy has been dating a girl for a while. She maintains that she likes him, but is relatively reserved, and hard to get. She is a challenge, and likes to have fun. The guy buys her flowers to try to get closer to her.

 

Not only is the latter situation controlling, manipulitive, and sure to make him unattractive by being so available, but it isn't rooted in kindness at all.

 

Ultimately, I believe that kindness toward another, PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, is always attractive.

 

Later,

 

Paulie

 

Later,

 

Paulie

[Tony T]

I think kindness, no matter what the motivation, is preferred over its opposite.

 

But what you say about REAL kindness vs. the controlling, manipulative variety is oh, so very true. I am very happy you posted this here and I have printed it out.

 

I may be a bit cynical, but I think there exists a lot of insincere kindness...the kindness that is motivated by getting something in return, whether it's the heart of another person, a favor, a pay raise or just points to be cashed in for future favors. I see this a lot.

 

Let's face it, most women have been exposed to guys who will say or do just about anything to get into their pants. After a while, they become suspect of kindness of almost any type and it becomes very difficult for a guy who is genuinely kind. That's why, I would guess, that some women would me more likely to be attracted to a bastard who wasn't going out of his way to impress her and may even be quite the opposite towards her. It happens a lot and we see it posted here every day.

 

What you speak of as the REAL kindness in the initial stages of a relationship is a sincere brand that does NOT go overboard. Being too kind would be a good example of pathological kindness which seeks to influence or manipulate another...even to make them feel obligated in some way.

 

There is a principle know in psychology as "projection." Basically, projection is when we see other's actions in the context of what our own motivation would be to do the same thing. So a person who is fake or has ulterior motives for being kind is likely to interpret REAL kindness in that perspective. These people have now frame of reference to understand altruism, or genuine caring and giving for its own sake. Another example of projection would be a person to lies often...who doesn't believe anything others say. These are the people we really don't need in our lives.

 

I think a person who shows REAL kindness is probably mature enough to know just how far to take it. That person would also have boundaries and not allow it to be taken advantage of. If a potential love interest is turned off by this brand of kindness, it would show symptoms of emotional or mental obstancles that most likely would not be desireable in a partner anyway.

 

I think there comes a day in every person's life, some sooner than later, when there enters a deep appreciation for genuinely kind, sweet, sincere people. But, that too takes a degree of trust to believe that it is real and long lasting. I guess it takes wisdom of the years to make a proper measure of advance judgement on that.

 

People ought to be who they are. If someone is not attracted to someone who shows REAL kindness, they can just go to hell!!!

 

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Tony T]

It is very generous of you to share your therapy sessions with us. I almost feel we should contribute something for those. They are always enlightening.

 

You are a genuinely kind person...what kind, I haven't figured out yet!!!

 

Thanks so much for all your posts and especially the ones regarding your counselling.

[Artlover]

Wow Paulie:

 

I just read your post and am so incredibly impressed. I just went through this exact same thing with someone recently. I just had to end a four month friendship with a man who was attracted to me, because I didn't feel the same way and it was getting out of hand. Anyway, I've been having tirades all week about PROJECTION. This man was so overly accommodating that it felt disingenuous to me. It was totally about approval for him and impossible for me to ever believe any of it. Plus, after 4 months of hanging out with him, I didn't feel like I knew him any better than I did after the first day. That's because, he wasn't being real at any point. It was all about getting my approval, making me like him, etc. It was so unattractive, I wanted to throttle him.

Well...yesterday I was talking with my therapist about why I continue to be so nice in my relationships with women. I'm sort of seeing a new girl, not seriously...just sort of talking and stuff. She's leaving the States tomorrow to go back to her native country (Brazil), and tonight we're going to see each other for maybe the last time (she might come back in March). What we talked about is that there's a difference between GENUINE kindness, and NEUROTIC kindness. GENUINE kindness is attractive to another person. When Tony, and other sage people who post here that suggest that we don't be too nice, I agree insofar as NEUROTIC kindness goes. There can never be enough genuine kindness. When I speak of neurotic kindness, I speak of us projecting actions, words, feelings, and level of committment upon others that we wish they would in turn bestow upon us. I caught myself telling this Brazillian girl the other night that she was beautiful, and would find happiness in whatever country she was in. I continued to carry on about what a great person she was, when I realized that what I was doing was somehow trying to gain her acceptance, and maybe hope that she would feel the same way about me. Now, frankly...I'm not overwhelmingly interested in this girl...but I do LIKE her, and am not leading her on. But I think that people somehow subconciously pick up on if "kindness" is rooted in the intrinsic genuine goodness of the person, or if it's rooted in their insecurities about themselves, and need to be accepted; the latter of which is extremely unattractive. This is an issue which we have labored over on this board for some time, now...yet continues to perplex me. I would like to think that I live in a world where kindness is a quality that attracts others, not drives them away. I believe that we do. Because neurotic kindness is not kindness at all...in fact, I feel it's controlling, insecure, and unhealthy. REAL kindness is rooted in self confidence (which begins with a CHOICE) and branches out to others from there...again by choice, and not out of need. REAL kindness shares, sacrifices, and learns...but never rejects the self. At the most elementary level, I'll give an example of what I'm talking about. SITUATION #1: A guy has been dating a lady for a while, she loves him, has expressed this verbally, as well as through her actions. He wishes to express his love and appreciation for her...he buys her flowers. SITUATION #2: A guy has been dating a girl for a while. She maintains that she likes him, but is relatively reserved, and hard to get. She is a challenge, and likes to have fun. The guy buys her flowers to try to get closer to her. Not only is the latter situation controlling, manipulitive, and sure to make him unattractive by being so available, but it isn't rooted in kindness at all. Ultimately, I believe that kindness toward another, PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, is always attractive.

 

Later, Paulie Later, Paulie

[Stargazer]

Good post boyz :-)

 

It all comes down to intention, concious or unconscious. If your intention in being kind is because you are coming from a place of love then that intention will be perceived. If your intention is to be kind because of what you will get out of if (this is usually unconcious, people running off their own baggage, except in the case of callous, self-serving people who know exactly what they are doing conciously) then it's coming from a place of fear, that will also be perceived, eventually.

 

I've certainly had my fair share of guys doing and being 'kind' for all the wrong reasons. They say they lied because they 'felt the truth would hurt', who are they being kind to when doing that? Certainly not me, they're looking after their own intentions cause they know if they were to tell the truth I'd be outta there - I'd make my own decisions based on the truth and it wouldn't be a decision that was in THEIR best interests. That's not being kind that's having the wrong intention, conciously or unconciously, it's disempowering me.

 

It gets a bit hard after awhile to discern WHY a guy is being kind, you have enough s***ty experiences and you just doubt guys, you eventually think to yourself, 'hmmmmm what's all this kindness about, what's HE want?'. I'm not jaded enough to believe that their aren't good, kind men out there with good intentions in their heart. For myself, I still tend to trust what people say and believe they have goodness in their hearts until they do something to make me think otherwise (then I go, well you should have know better!), I really think that you'll never get anywhere in life automatically assuming the worst of people, even though your experiences show you to do otherwise, one must have faith, but by the same token it only takes a few bad apples to stuff things up for the geniune kind out there, know what I mean?

 

So glad you brought up 'projection' Tony, I've used that word a lot of times on here and people just don't know what the heck it means!

[Rebecca]

Hi, Paulie

 

Thank you so much for your sharing.

 

As I read your post, it reminds me the "seven elements of VALUE", defined by Sidney Simon, Leland Howe and some others. I would like to quote them from Bradshaw's book ("Homecoming", p.242).

 

A value is not a value unless it has seven elements. They are:

 

1.It must be chosen.

 

2.There must be alternatives.

 

3.You must know the consequences of your choice.

 

4.Once chosen you prize and cherish it.

 

5.You are willing to publicly proclaim it.

 

6.You act on this value.

 

7.You act on it consistently and repeatedly.

 

I know I have this Kindness problem too. Maybe I am just too nice to be a challenge at all. But there is a sad story for me. My little brother died from a car accident when he was only 18. I was 15 at that time. This accident taught me how easy we are going to disappear from this world, and how mean it would be if we mistreat others in any way. I was not appreciated in my previous relationship. I talked to my ex several times since we broke up. Still I am not being appreciated at all.

 

But I am not going to change the way I am. If there is no one in the world who likes who I am, if not being appreciated all the time, it is fine. Because I know who I am and I know what I am doing.

 

Being kind is a value. I don't expect any returns. The day when I die (it could happen in any moment), if I know I don't owe anyone any apology, it would be the best gift I have ever given to myself I think.

 

Again, it's just my personal value.

 

Thanks again. Your posts are always full of humor and thoughts.

 

Wish you a very happy new year!

 

Rebecca

[Paulie]

Always playing devil's advocate to my own posts...

 

(I believe it was Plato who said "The unexamined life is not worth living")

 

There is some redemptive value, some charming quality in projecting the way we would like to be treated...onto the ones we love. Maybe this goes along with Tony's suggestion that kindness, in any form, is preferable to it's alternative

 

The "Golden Rule" says, "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you."

 

Sometimes this is easy,

 

Other times, Paulie just feels like he just doesn't know...

 

So he lets it be, and goes to have a few beers after a long week. We all deserve a release from time to time!

 

Later, and thanks for so mant kind responses to my post.

 

Paulie

[Tony T]

(I believe it was Plato who said "The unexamined life is not worth living")

 

No, that was Aristotle. But both Plato and Ari are dead so I'm sure they don't really care.

 

Frankly, I think both names are pretty goofy.

[Tony T]

It is terribly sad that we often don't start placing real value on kindness until we have suffered a tragic loss of some kind.

 

I am glad you have no intentions of changing. But the world will remain as cruel as it has always been. Because so many have not experienced the pain of loss, they have not yet learned the real value of people and each moment with them.

 

"Nothing would be altered, I was convinced, except by a change of heart...and who could change the hearts of men." -Henry Miller, Tropic of Capricorn