Outing PUA tactics!

[MrNate 2.0]

I did not know PUA could be this big of a stir up. That community has always seemed so small to the point I didn't think it impacted that many people.

 

 

The biggest thing I see it achieve was get dudes the confidence to approach.

 

All of this other stuff, I just don't know. Learning all of that PUA stuff just seems like a chore.

[dasein]

I know a guy that I'm almost positive is a genuine sociopath, probably the only one that I've ever met.

 

He also happens to be VERY good with women, one of the best (if not THE best) that I've ever seen.

 

It's a good strategy if you want to increase your notch count.

 

This is another good point, the real wackadoos tend to be very good with women (and same for wack women who have lines of men after them), those are much more dangerous and potentially damaging than some dude who learned how to throw a hamhanded neg off a webpage.

[Eternal Sunshine]

A friend of mine who was painfully shy with women read some PUA material where he learned how to break groups in bars so that he could talk to them. It was cool that his confidence increased and he was getting some numbers.

 

I also don't think that PUA makes anyone a sociopath if they weren't one already.

 

And NLP can be used on men too

[dasein]

I know what I posted for sure, but I don't count on what goes on in your head being the right interpretation of it. In fact, knowing you, it most likely isn't. I also like that you never took a stance against harmful PUA techniques, clearly shows you don't care about that part as long as you get results.

 

1. You don't know me. 2. Whatever you are counting as "harmful PUA techniques" aren't. People have harmful intent and motive, a string of words or even actions amounting to a simple flirtation can't be inherently harmful unless the hearer of them is mentally unhinged or an idiot.

 

@thread So what if a guy doesn't call in three days after being hot and heavy? He did you a favor, dump and move on. Don't attribute his bad behavior that men and women do to each other every day of the world to some "harmful PUA technique." 99% of the time, it's just another dickhead, not someone trying to "hoopdedooppushpull theory," or whatever asisinine label. If it makes you feel better to hoopdedoop and push-pull and PUA at life's relationship disappointments, fine in measured doses, but then to try to make a list of what to watch out for in the future? That's a bit much. Watch out for dickheads! How bout that? Simple. The end.

 

Keep trying to make a string of words an ebola virus and keep missing what lots of experienced people in the thread are trying to tell you. The intent is all that matters, not some silly words, not "PUA" words anyway.

 

When I seduce a woman, the intent is to have fun, get turned on, find out what she really wants, and if it's also what I want, give it to her. If some other guy's intent is to deceive her, break her, get what he wants, and leave her in the dust, that's HIM, not the words, not the tools, not the letter, roses, cards, posts on a PUA forum, negs, push-pull, cute texts, puppies, martinis, AMOG, hardbody9, set, peacock, etc. HIM, his intent. He may do the exact same things I do, but the intent is entirely different. This has been repeated in endless iterations in this thread, yet it still doesn't sink in.

[New User]

First, I said "most of the time", not every single time. Second, If the male dance to seduce the woman is harmless and free of deceit, I have no problem with that, never said I did. There are certain PUA techniques I have problem with because they harm women in short and long term.

 

Honestly, I think that a sort of "willing deceit" is part and parcel of the seduction dance to a large extent. To clarify- If I meet a woman I am drawn to and she is feeling the same way, I can't expect a whole lot of success if my approach is "nice shoes- wanna F**k?" That has been known to work on spring break and in some college bars/parties but as a normal approach, not so much. Instead we go through this whole dance (which, by the way, I happen to greatly enjoy) where we banter and tease one another back and forth while we pretend that the end state that we both desire is not where things are heading. I don't know if I'm really getting my point across- when I'm interested in a woman I'm about as subtle as a Mack truck for the most part in terms of looks, touch, tone, and expression- but the actual act is never mentioned directly(not the first time anyway). We kinda both "pretend to pretend" until either I say or do something stupid that disqualifies me in her eyes or we wind up in bed (or wherever- if it sounds like I'm solely talking about one night stands, I'm not. The dance can last days, weeks, or even months). I'm not fool enough to think that I've ever seduced a woman that wasn't already into me, and I think that the whole debate over who is seducing who is a matter of semantics more than anything. It's not going to happen unless both parties are ready and willing. I don't know that I've ever started something unless I've gotten some indication that the gal was interested in me- could be anything from a smile to a wink to a glance to much more overt gestures (especially in college). The dance is fun and it's exciting- I believe for both of us. Getting shot down halfway through it isn't that big of a deal- it's disappointing sure, sometimes also humorous and a funny story later. It isn't worth letting it hurt your ego or getting all butt-hurt and angry over though. Not all women I'm attracted to are interested in me or vice versa. I think that both the man and the woman know within a minute at the most if there's a possibility of things progressing most of the time- at least from their end. I also think that you owe it to anyone that expresses an interest that you don't reciprocate to allow them a graceful exit unless they've done something really rude.

 

Yeah- I'm tired and rambling a bit. Hope that's at least a little entertaining for y'all.

[MrNate 2.0]

A friend of mine who was painfully shy with women read some PUA material where he learned how to break groups in bars so that he could talk to them. It was cool that his confidence increased and he was getting some numbers.

 

I also don't think that PUA makes anyone a sociopath if they weren't one already.

 

And NLP can be used on men too

 

 

That happened to me once.

 

I don't run into many women with game, but she had me hooked in minutes.

[Radu]

PUA at it's basis is for the guys who cannot 'read' the 95% of human communication that goes into body language and tonality.

Those same guys who don't know how to dress, who put women on pedestals and who have reached an age where they are still virgins or have very little experience with women [though i would expand this to ppl].

 

The PUA that is seen on TV [through Mystery's show] is just a bunch of shortcuts he found to in bed with women, though most ppl wouldn't know that he himself stated before 2000 that he was a natural from the get-go [hence why he became a street magician].

The one that is not seen on TV is the one that deals with improving your inner self, which is not really all that different from just about any other kind of self-improvement philosophy out there, this one being aimed at your social skills and standing.

 

The reason why you see everything categorised so much in PUA, with specialty terms, with principles and attempts that make you think the person in question is just playing with lab rats is because social skills are less likely to come naturally to men, and because logic is more easily understood by men ... it is all in a format that men can understand easily.

 

I'll add this part for the men who read this and might consider doing it.

The stuff you see, negging, push-pull, etc ... , it's nice to know but they are not good for LTR's.

Worse, most of today's young women are more or less vaccinated against it and have been so since this whole PUA thing has become mainstream.

There is no magic pill that will make you a magnet, use your money for better things.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Radu

[Radu]

A friend of mine who was painfully shy with women read some PUA material where he learned how to break groups in bars so that he could talk to them. It was cool that his confidence increased and he was getting some numbers.

 

I also don't think that PUA makes anyone a sociopath if they weren't one already.

 

And NLP can be used on men too

 

NLP is beyond just getting dates, it's amazing in any kind of social interaction.

[CrystalCastles]

PUA can work on women who are young. I would easily fall for it when I was 20. Mostly because I was inexperienced.

 

I also found that a guy can't get away with doing PUA forever. It gets boring. I've had guys try the "neg" on me, as well as the push-pull, the "go ahead and try to impress me" crap, and it worked at first but after a while I stop buying the guy's stupid ****.

 

One question though. If it is considered unattractive for a girl to pursue a guy, won't she be pursuing the guy if she's inexperienced and the guy tries PUA on her? Like a push-pull? If he pulls away, she might pursue him, so isn't that what he wants? So how is that unattractive?

[MissBee]

A couple of weeks ago I decided to read about PUA for the first time ever, having only ever heard of that term last year. I swear, there were points where I was laughing so hard that I'd stop breathing for a few seconds.

 

It's definitely not meant to attract women like me (just the opposite), and it's something I don't think any guy in his 30s or older should try without looking stupid, but it's amusing nonetheless.

 

HowStuffWorks "How Pickup Artists Work"

 

I also never heard of it, besides on sitcoms and movies, then on LS.

 

In real life I haven't heard it.

 

In any case, you have "it" or you don't I believe, a man has game or doesn't. I cannot imagine how reading about being a PUA and then trying it can actually come off as anything but artificial.

 

Now that I read about it, I have seen douches like this at work and I always end up rolling my eyes and me and my girlfriends just walk away from them laughing like is this dude for real??? Because it always seem so contrived and bullshhiity.

[MissBee]

Especially when they're wearing some kind of hilarious costumes like these clowns:

 

http://kidstrangelove.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/mystery-and-style-pua-peacocking.jpg

 

I guess if we ever see a pack of fellows like this entering a club, we can expect the negging and special salesman pitches to commence post haste!

 

LMAOOOOOO :lmao:

 

The funny part is that even if they aren't dressed that way, might as well be, because their entire approach and attitudes are just clownish and seem very costumey, put-on and fake! You could be in a Tom Ford suit...if you're employing some of those tactics you will be spotted and seen for the clown you really are.

[Radu]

I also never heard of it, besides on sitcoms and movies, then on LS.

 

In real life I haven't heard it.

 

In any case, you have "it" or you don't I believe, a man has game or doesn't. I cannot imagine how reading about being a PUA and then trying it can actually come off as anything but artificial.

 

Now that I read about it, I have seen douches like this at work and I always end up rolling my eyes and me and my girlfriends just walk away from them laughing like is this dude for real??? Because it always seem so contrived and bullshhiity.

 

Then you believe wrong.

 

With training, guidance and practice many ppl who are crappy at it, can become good salesmen.

Ppl with game know how to sell themselves, in time it can be learned.

 

Not saying that most will achieve it [they really won't], just that it is possible.

The thing that i think is key in all of this is humility, to look at your own actions and think how you can improve on them, and to not believe that you are the 'ultimate sh*t' when you do start to see some success.

[Taramere]

I don't think I know what duping glee would look like.

 

I'm thinking it would be the conman mentality. The person who enjoys deceiving other people not just because of the tangible things they get from it (whether money or sex) but because they like that feeling of having got one over on another person. In all the literature I've read about psychopaths, that tends to be a major component to it. They enjoy getting one over on victims, and if called on it by powerful figures they will tend to switch to victim mode themselves ("I had a difficult childhood") or they will try to convince others that the victim in some way deserved to be duped.

 

I've no doubt that there are lots of perfectly nice men who subscribe to PUA because they find it interesting, or have felt the effects of being a bit too nice in life - and perhaps feel that it's time to play some of the games they perceive others as playing. However the people who seem to be at the helm in this PUA community tend to have the strong whiff of the snake oil salesman about them, and lonely, miserable men are probably their main target far more than women are (though I've no doubt they would also use the conman approach to getting sex from women).

 

My understanding is that a lot of those "gurus" come from the marketing or PR world, where it's common to have a superficial understanding of human behaviour theories - and to use that knowledge in a quest to manipulate human behaviour. It's the Freud-v-Edward Bernays conflict. Freud developed his theories in the hope of helping humanity, his nephew Bernays adopted them in a quest to manipulate it, and made a lot of money in the process. Now the world is full of Edward Bernays' mini-mes. These "how to manipulate" gurus - all thinking they have a special insight into human nature that most people don't have, and all wanting to make a pile of money from this special insight and ability they think they have.

 

Generally they come across as risible, and you'd think "who on earth would be taken in by that?" - but unfortunately there are people out there who are gullible and vulnerable enough to be taken in. And no doubt the "duping glee" is multiplied many times in those incompetent conmen who rarely find marks who are sufficiently gullible to fall for their cons - and are thrilled beyond belief on the rare occasions they do manage to con somebody. I think that they're relatively easy to spot most of the time, because they desperately want to boast - and all you have to do is give them the opportunity to boast. I remember in Without Conscience, Robert Hare talked of the psychopaths he and his students met in prison who loved nothing more than to regale a diligent listener with tales of their cons and deceits. That would be the "duping glee" mentality.

 

I've met quite a few of them professionally, and you will have too. Listening to them boast can be disconcerting, because you find yourself thinking "does this person think I'm like them? Do they think I approve of this sort of thing? Is that why they're boasting to me about their exploits?" However, often it's maybe more either that they lack the people judgement skills to realise that just because you're not vociferously sitting in judgement of them doesn't mean you're actually impressed by their behaviour - or perhaps they're just bursting with the desire to boast about their unsavoury exploits, and the detached demeanour of a professional listening to them gives them that sense of it being safe to do so. I try to get shot of clients like that asap because there's too much likelihood of them being professional complainers or (in the unlikely event that they earn enough to be private fee payers) non payers of their bills.

 

Much as a lot of them probably love the internet because it permits them to boast - or in the no doubt numerous cases of the failed conman/weak character (who mimics sociopathic behaviour because they're impressed by it), to make things up.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Taramere

[Taramere]

Especially when they're wearing some kind of hilarious costumes like these clowns:

 

http://kidstrangelove.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/mystery-and-style-pua-peacocking.jpg

 

I guess if we ever see a pack of fellows like this entering a club, we can expect the negging and special salesman pitches to commence post haste!

 

God - that picture. I remember posting some sort of mocking post about it, and being berated by PUA fan for laughing...which just goes to show how detached from reality people who get too much into this stuff can become.

[skydiveaddict]

 

I've no doubt that there are lots of perfectly nice men who subscribe to PUA because they find it interesting, or have felt the effects of being a bit too nice in life

 

Yup. Being too nice is a sure trip to the friendzone.

[MissBee]

Then you believe wrong.

 

With training, guidance and practice many ppl who are crappy at it, can become good salesmen.

Ppl with game know how to sell themselves, in time it can be learned.

 

Not saying that most will achieve it [they really won't], just that it is possible.

The thing that i think is key in all of this is humility, to look at your own actions and think how you can improve on them, and to not believe that you are the 'ultimate sh*t' when you do start to see some success.

 

I didn't say it's impossible...I said I can't imagine it.

 

You can learn lots of things, then they're people who are naturally talented/gifted and just have "it". There's a qualitative difference between the two from my observation.

[Taramere]

Yup. Being too nice is a sure trip to the friendzone.

 

I think it can be if you interpret a person's niceness as being something that makes them very gullible. Personally my preference is for men who see through other people's bs and don't tend to employ it themselves (I say "tend to" because unfortunately we live in a world so marketing/PR heavy that most people will find themselves under pressure to employ a bit of bs from time to time in order to stay competitive).

[skydiveaddict]

I think it can be if you interpret a person's niceness as being something that makes them very gullible.

 

Most girls see that as weak and effeminate. Girls are simply not attracted to a shy, polite, soft spoken nice guy. It's simply a fact.

That's the number one rule in the pua world.

[Taramere]

Most girls see that as weak and effeminate. Girls are simply not attracted to a shy, polite, soft spoken nice guy. It's simply a fact.

That's the number one rule in the pua world.

 

Being loud isn't universally regarded as an asset or a strength. In some cultures it will get a person marked out as a bit of a fool - and, indeed, a mark for conmen if they're so noisy that they stand out as (for instance) being a tourist.

 

Introverted people often have a far better insight than the noisier ones, on account of playing observer more often. They just aren't necessarily as quick to share their insights with the rest of the group.

[Weezy1973]

I didn't say it's impossible...I said I can't imagine it.

 

You can learn lots of things, then they're people who are naturally talented/gifted and just have "it". There's a qualitative difference between the two from my observation.

 

How exactly would you know the difference? Generally the people that are the most successful in life are the people that work the hardest - especially those that work the hardest to overcome any natural shortcomings.

[skydiveaddict]

 

Introverted people often have a far better insight than the noisier ones, on account of playing observer more often. They just aren't necessarily as quick to share their insights with the rest of the group.

 

They are also the ones who don't get dates

[skydiveaddict]

Bit of a generalisation, isn't it?

 

Perhaps. But most of the time nice guys lose. That's a fact.

[Taramere]

They are also the ones who don't get dates

 

I see plenty of guys like that who are happily partnered up - and actually, in a lot of cases those men were friends with their wives/girlfriends before things turned overtly romantic. I suppose that's more likely in an environment that's less geared towards a formalised dating process.

[joystickd]

You know I've heard this phrase around the Internet, and it always makes me chuckle.

 

Lets be clear, more times than I care to remember have I been told by a girl that she's not interested in me romantically, but wants to be friends, and, yes, with some of these women it hurt like a mofo at the time, especially those I really liked.

 

However, pretty much all of those women I've stayed friendly with, and three of my girlfriends, and one fiancé ended up being friends with the woman who "friendzoned" me. (Which, by the way, is a fooking stupid term)

 

The term has such laughably negative connotations, probably based on the fact that the person who dreamed it up cannot see any benefit in only being friends with a woman. Well, people can see it like that if they want to. Frankly, the more people want to be my friend, the better.

In a way not a stupid term. Honestly who wants to settle for friendship when you wanted more. Just like for women who wants to settle for being a bootycall when you wanted more. It's the same principle but when it comes to men everyone is like "Oh just deal with it"

[Radu]

I'm applying what you wrote straight to the popular ones, the ones who started selling programs, making money out of this.

 

I'm thinking it would be the conman mentality. The person who enjoys deceiving other people not just because of the tangible things they get from it (whether money or sex) but because they like that feeling of having got one over on another person. In all the literature I've read about psychopaths, that tends to be a major component to it. They enjoy getting one over on victims, and if called on it by powerful figures they will tend to switch to victim mode themselves ("I had a difficult childhood") or they will try to convince others that the victim in some way deserved to be duped.

Looking back at some of them, i would have to say you would not be that far from the truth.

It's not the difficult childhood though, it's mostly the constant rejection that built to hatred levels ... anger.

 

I've no doubt that there are lots of perfectly nice men who subscribe to PUA because they find it interesting, or have felt the effects of being a bit too nice in life - and perhaps feel that it's time to play some of the games they perceive others as playing. However the people who seem to be at the helm in this PUA community tend to have the strong whiff of the snake oil salesman about them, and lonely, miserable men are probably their main target far more than women are (though I've no doubt they would also use the conman approach to getting sex from women).

The ones who are at the front, selling ... all are snake oil salesmen.

And most of the ppl buying don't apply common sense, so they end up paying a premium on stuff that is already out of date, that can only work once ...

 

My understanding is that a lot of those "gurus" come from the marketing or PR world, where it's common to have a superficial understanding of human behaviour theories - and to use that knowledge in a quest to manipulate human behaviour. It's the Freud-v-Edward Bernays conflict. Freud developed his theories in the hope of helping humanity, his nephew Bernays adopted them in a quest to manipulate it, and made a lot of money in the process. Now the world is full of Edward Bernays' mini-mes. These "how to manipulate" gurus - all thinking they have a special insight into human nature that most people don't have, and all wanting to make a pile of money from this special insight and ability they think they have.

It's even worse than you think ... these ppl are not selling the principle behind it, which would not be so bad because most ppl just want to get a normal life.

These ppl are selling the step by step instructions for easy gratification while sacrificing long term potential.

What most ppl don't understand is that by buying into this, they are the laughing stock of these sellers.

Because if you truly want to change yourself like this, if you truly want to be a 'leader' you will stop being a follower, you will go out there and carve your own path.

By the simple process of buying, you are ensuring you will remain in your place.

 

Generally they come across as risible, and you'd think "who on earth would be taken in by that?" - but unfortunately there are people out there who are gullible and vulnerable enough to be taken in. And no doubt the "duping glee" is multiplied many times in those incompetent conmen who rarely find marks who are sufficiently gullible to fall for their cons - and are thrilled beyond belief on the rare occasions they do manage to con somebody. I think that they're relatively easy to spot most of the time, because they desperately want to boast - and all you have to do is give them the opportunity to boast. I remember in Without Conscience, Robert Hare talked of the psychopaths he and his students met in prison who loved nothing more than to regale a diligent listener with tales of their cons and deceits. That would be the "duping glee" mentality.

Yes, they do love to boast ... but i suspect that the bulk of the boasters actually buy into the dehumanizing of the other person by calling her a HB or a 'target'.

I do know quite a few ppl who have privately boasted to me for leading separate lives IRL [marriage and affair for half a decade in parallel].

In the above case she was not in the PUA thing, but knew of it and approved of it.

 

I've met quite a few of them professionally, and you will have too. Listening to them boast can be disconcerting, because you find yourself thinking "does this person think I'm like them? Do they think I approve of this sort of thing? Is that why they're boasting to me about their exploits?" However, often it's maybe more either that they lack the people judgement skills to realise that just because you're not vociferously sitting in judgement of them doesn't mean you're actually impressed by their behaviour - or perhaps they're just bursting with the desire to boast about their unsavoury exploits, and the detached demeanour of a professional listening to them gives them that sense of it being safe to do so. I try to get shot of clients like that asap because there's too much likelihood of them being professional complainers or (in the unlikely event that they earn enough to be private fee payers) non payers of their bills.

I think they have poor ppl judging skills and boasting gives them value.

The 2nd bolded part, i'll have to learn how to do that too.

 

Much as a lot of them probably love the internet because it permits them to boast - or in the no doubt numerous cases of the failed conman/weak character (who mimics sociopathic behaviour because they're impressed by it), to make things up.

I think ppl who mimic sociopathic behaviour are more common than we think.

I know quite a lot of ppl who could fit the bill, but are not actually sociopaths ... i suspect that some ppl develop these traits even without the input of something like PUA as a preservation mechanism.

And i believe that the dehumanization of the target is mandatory for this to work.

 

PS: For lols, look up what happened with Gunwitch and read his guide as well.