So THAT'S How Cliche it Can Get...

[BetrayedH]

We tend to judge from our perspective.

 

If I was the H of OP and if I received all that info I would immediately initiate divorce proceedings. I would thank OP for her honesty, but I would automatically disengage no matter how much I loved her. True conjugal love is bilateral and reciprocated.

 

However, there are men that have low self esteem and will tolerate anything to keep the wife. The big extreme is to tolerate infidelity

 

That all sounds very logical. But responses to infidelity rarely have anything to do with logic; it was the most emotional and confusing time in my life. Everything I thought I knew about life and my wife was wrong. Expecting that people make well-thought, rational, objective decisions when faced with this kind of thing is simply not accurate the vast majority of the time.

 

Last stats I saw said that 80%+ of BHs will initially attempt to reconcile and the numbers are 90%+ for BW. Do all of those people suffer low self-esteem? I think not. I think it's a reflection of how much they loved their spouse and the fact that it takes time to tread thru the confusion of betrayal before they can settle on a decision that works for them.

[JustAReformedGirl]

 

in any case...good luck and well wishes OP...

 

PS. you mentioned your H is a soldier?...he may have a different perspective on a lot of things...if you think about it... between casualties in war and infidelity...infidelity doesn't really amount to much...at least you haven't shot anyone...

 

Thank you. He hasn't been overseas or anything of the sort, yet. No deployment. Just a lot of field exercises away from home (though usually not particularly far away). Though I do think after a lot of the training he's gone through, his thought process has greatly changed. If all of this had occurred before his military career (which has reached its third anniversary) I think his reaction would be much different than it has been. Not necessarily horrible, but he used to be a very impulsive person. He isn't as much, anymore.

 

Denial.

 

Men will say anything to get some WW action.

 

Once dday the OM drop their OW and search for a new one will no BH baggage.

 

Except for a couple of things, Road:

 

1) AP and I ended the affair a couple of months or so ago.

 

2) AP was unaware of D-day occurring. I didn't bother telling him, since the affair was over.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Doesn't make it right, but you are entitled.

 

If AP had replied differently and advised you that, yes he did still have romantic feelings for you and would like to see how things progress after you had separated from H, would you even be considering a reconciliation with H?

 

I'm not sure, to be honest. I have a feeling I wouldn't have considered R, if AP had still wanted a legitimate shot with me. Kind of makes me seem like the scum of the Earth, but I think it has a lot to do with trying to figure out where I stand, emotionally. Right now, I still don't know how or what to feel. All the expectations I had built up about this have shattered or changed.

 

 

 

RD, just one thought for you to consider.

 

As your communications with the OM dwindle...and as he demonstrates to you more and more of those traits that you don't like about him (indecision being a key one)....

 

...and as you become more and more open and honest in your communications with your H (and why not...at this point it's all on the table and costs you nothing to do so)...

 

...you very well could find yourself eventually drawn back to your H, and fall in love with him over OM.

 

Not saying it WILL happen. But am saying that's possible.

 

I hope you're right; I hope we come to some sort of conclusion soon. On one hand, if your theory is true, it would be well worth it. On the other hand, if it doesn't work out that way, I wouldn't want to drag him through more misery-drag us both, for that matter.

 

Your H is doing the right things. He's not blowing up on you, even with the

hurtful/painful things. Instead, he's LISTENING to you (maybe for the first

time in years) without over-reacting, without too much judgement, and he's

potentially even learning from what he's hearing and making changes as needed.

 

I won't lie...listening hasn't been his strong suit. I'm not saying this is what spurred the affair. There is no excuse for what I did; but my disconnection from him probably stems from this, at least in part.

 

 

 

Turns out...communicating is the key to establishing an emotional connection.

Being able to communicate openly and honestly about this stuff led my wife to

remember what kind of man I truly am...and eventually led to our own recovery.

 

I'm glad to hear it worked out for you. I've always tried to have open communication with H, but I guess at some point, I must have given up on trying. It wasn't consciously done, but I know I was frustrated for a long time-as though I was talking to a wall. It wasn't that he was outright ignoring me, either. I think it was some level of apathy that kept him from speaking his mind, and from really processing the things I was saying.

 

You sound like you're in a very similar emotionally removed (from the marriage) state to what she was in at the time.

 

Just some things to consider. Keep doing what you're doing...see where it leads.

 

I have a feeling you've hit the nail on the head with this, Owl. I am certainly taking this into full consideration.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think your H is too far off the norm. Anger is not the first stage of grief. I was initially pissed when I discovered my W's affair but once my wife agrees to end the affair and work on the marriage, the anger wasn't really present for some months to come. I was in the bargaining and depression stages a lot in the beginning months. With some measure of hope of not losing my nuclear family, I was focused on that one task. It was damage control for the most part. Sounds like what your H is doing. I was also called a cuckold and a doormat here. Neither was true. I think your H is experiencing pain and as a man, doesn't want to show it.

 

This is a very real possibility; more so the stage of grief part, than the emotional aspect. I'm one of few people he has no compunction about showing emotions to...but then again, given the nature of the situation, he could be nursing his wounds.

 

 

I think that's especially true since he is still waiting for the other shoe to

drop; he's waiting for you to decide if you're going to leave him.

 

Right now, I think we're both waiting for the other shoe to drop. What you say could be true, and similarly, I'm given to wonder if I'm going to get the boot.

 

We've been discussing it, and recon is the course we're going to take. That being said, I'm sure fear is lurking in his mind, just as it is with me. Fear that one of us will decide part way through that this can't be done, it's too late, etc. But, I'm going to do this. Unfortunately, he and I won't have much time to work on all of this. He's going on a field exercise at the start of next week. Whatever progress we might make between now and then...well, hopefully it won't be wasted by him being gone for two weeks.

 

 

But he's going to resist the urge to cry, beg, or yell. My anger

came to the surface once I felt safe. It took some months to feel

confident that she wasn't going to leave. That's when it really hit me

that, you know what, I don't much appreciate that this has happened.

 

I'm not going to give him reason to cry or beg. That's the last thing I want. If he becomes angry with me once the dust settles, I'll deal with it, then. I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open for any subtle, or not so subtle, changes.

 

One other quick thought: if you decide to reconcile with your H, your exAp is going to have to go. You have to make a choice, regardless of what your H says today. He's bargaining and that's one deal with you that he won't be able to keep.

 

If it comes down to that, I'll burn that bridge. I'll be honest, I'm hoping it doesn't go that way. Not because xAP and I had something, but because of the sentimentality surrounding our friendship.

 

But again, if I am left with no other choice, I will sever that tie.

 

 

I just wanted to say thanks to each and every one of you for your insight, input, and well wishes. I will keep everyone up to date over what happens from here on out.

[LBlanc]

... and my H's already-tepid reaction to my confession of an EA is PROOF that I'd be going through what you are were I to disclose the whole thing/

 

It sucks having no one fight for you, doesn't it? It's not an ego thing...it's a deep urge. You want to feel really, REALLY valued...

 

....

 

...there is an ocean of difference between an EA and a PA...might not get the same reaction with a full disclosure...

 

...

 

It sucks having no one fight for you, doesn't it? It's not an ego thing...it's a deep urge. You want to feel really, REALLY valued...

 

....

 

...OP's H just found out...and though i'd like to think he's a cerebral type of person (i.e. not prone throw any kind of tantrum but prefers to talk things out)... his lack of reaction could just be the calm before the storm...

[JustAReformedGirl]

 

It sucks having no one fight for you, doesn't it? It's not an ego thing...it's a deep urge. You want to feel really, REALLY valued...

 

You're probably right about that. I'm not sure what it is with me. I've never been one of those women that needs to be the centre of the Universe, but I think I really needed someone that felt that level of value for me. By that same token, I needed to feel that way for him, or it couldn't work. Well, I felt it for xAP. I guess it was just too late for us.

 

 

 

 

Then there is the possibility he is not with the right woman who sets him on

fire. I have talked to my H about this and he denies that possibility but I

think it's a real possibility. People who don't value chemistry first, sometimes

end up in relationships with chemistry being last.

 

I think as far as that goes, I put more importance on our sex life than H does. He likes sex, and will pursue it from me (he's not subtle) but for a long time now, I've lacked that chemistry. And while I can be raring to go at any given moment (I have a healthy libido) I can't seem to make myself want it with him. I spend more time doing it the bored and lonely way, while taking little trips through fantasy land.

 

There is also the possibility he has had an OW in the past and now is relieved

he can feel less guilty. I DEFINITELY think this is possible with my H. But it

doesn't matter to me. If you don't want me, the reasons "why" are 6 of one, half

a dozen of the other. I don't really care to know why. I just wanna find someone

who does.

 

I don't think he had an OW, but I do wonder if his ONS is keeping him from becoming upset with me-at least right now.

 

As for MM---look, yes, he loved you. But we ALL choose lovers with our head and

our hearts.

 

Not MM, just AP. He was single. But, I also think you're on to something.

 

 

It is completely illogical to throw away a family unit when most of it

works. Just for passion and lust and yes, even love. One thinks about : "Does

this person add value to my life/ make my life easier?" OR "Does this person

make me lose value/ make my life harder."

 

Based on previous discussions with xAP (some time before he realized he'd lost romantic feelings) he would express guilt about breaking up a family, the possibility of my daughter hating him, not feeling adequate enough to support me financially, etc. It's entirely possible he did lose those romantic feelings, and it just took him awhile to realize it-but I also wonder if he's letting logic take the wheel, this time. There are just things that don't make sense about his sudden realization. My guess is love still exists, though not romantically. Or not enough for "us" to occur.

 

 

 

 

Your only question is...in this new budding marriage, at this young age, are you gonna be content to "supplement" for the rest of your life? If the answer is no, you should really consider D.

 

Without thinking of it in those exact words, I have wondered to myself if I can really do this. Right now, I'm going to at least try; perhaps the M can be salvaged. I won't lie, though; I do fear being unhappy for the rest of my life, if I stay this course.

 

I've got a lot to think about, and to work on. I just hope I figure it out before things get any more painful. Thanks for your input and kind words, RR.

[Pierre]

The reconciliation process is futile if the wayward spouse is not remorseful. Reconciliation works best when both spouses want to save the marriage and are working on the same page. Anything else has a high rate of failure.

[Pierre]

Ugh, Rebel Dynasty, I feel for you here, I really do. This is EXACTLY how I'd imagine my sitch would go down and how my H and MM would react. In fact. MM TOLD me to work on my marriage (which proves I am only useful to him if otherwise committed) and my H's already-tepid reaction to my confession of an EA is PROOF that I'd be going through what you are were I to disclose the whole thing/

 

Looking for validation?

 

You wanted your MM to ask you to divorce your H?

 

You wanted your H to hit the roof?

 

BTW, you should tell your H it was a full blown affair with SEX involved. Telling H you had a crush on someone is meaningless. Men don't work that way. Your H would only be concerned if you had SEX. Once, he realized there was no SEX there was no need to get excited. WHy don't you tell the whole story?

 

It sucks having no one fight for you, doesn't it? It's not an ego thing...it's a deep urge. You want to feel really, REALLY valued...

 

It must be extremely painful to live in such a manner that you need so much external validation to feel value. This deep urge is pathological, but you probably think it is normal because that is all you know. Would a fish question why he is in the water? You are who you are and this is your reality, your normal state.

 

 

Here's my take:

I believe that men are not as absolutist about monogamy, like women. Even if they are possessive, I think they understand the humanness of getting needs met and everyone not having a nuclear meltdown over it. So, in that regard, I think a mild reaction is a kind of strength, not wimpiness.

 

 

A mild reaction is fine. A man should mildly ask his wife to pack his bags. He should be kind and helpful and find her a place to stay. I would go as far as to call her OM and convinced him to accept my wife. All of this can be done with no anger. Why fight the forces of nature. OP has zero sexual attraction for her H. All the sexual attraction is on the OM. If I was the H I would call OM and hopefully he can work out a deal with my wife. Why try reconciliation in these circumstances?

 

On the other hand, men who are not very Alpha in the sack carry around a certain resignation all the time. They have a very early sense about their prowess growing up. They experience it early and often with many women, and have some insecurity about their performance. They're not FULLY aware, because they've never actually been in bed with a man who is a TOTAL ANIMAL, but they have an idea that they're not one of 'em. So..yeah, I think many of these guys are resigned to underperforming and they kind of give up. It's disabled desire; and again, they're not gonna go into hysterics about it because they know it's a simple reality. Some of these guys, I believe, are happy to be cuckolded. It's also a kind of weird strength: acceptance.

 

This may be true. Some men may have a tendency to be cuckolded and somehow the MOW picks up on this. A cuckold with a wife is better than a cuckold with no wife. All the wife has to do is find a man to meet her sexual needs and everything else is on the H. Some betrayed wives do this act too. HOwever, I don't believe you can say your H is like this until you tell him your sexual desire is elsewhere.

 

 

 

Then there is the possibility he is not with the right woman who sets him on fire. I have talked to my H about this and he denies that possibility but I think it's a real possibility. People who don't value chemistry first, sometimes end up in relationships with chemistry being last.

 

Did you marry your H with no chemistry?

 

There is also the possibility he has had an OW in the past and now is relieved he can feel less guilty. I DEFINITELY think this is possible with my H. But it doesn't matter to me. If you don't want me, the reasons "why" are 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. I don't really care to know why. I just wanna find someone who does.

Possible, but unlikely. Philandering men tend to be extremely jealous.

 

As for MM---look, yes, he loved you.

 

Love in the affair compartment, yes! MM loved OP.

 

This is the morality of survival, in matters of the heart. All's fair in love and war, and all that...

 

Cliché of teen years.

 

Your only question is...in this new budding marriage, at this young age, are you gonna be content to "supplement" for the rest of your life? If the answer is no, you should really consider D.

 

Excellent point!

[road]

I would feel terribly frustrated by if I were you that my H was being so understanding.

 

So to not feel frustrated a WW would have to have her BH call her every name in the book and smack her around some as well?

[Artie Lang]

an affair is a total cliché in and of itself.

[JustAReformedGirl]

an affair is a total cliché in and of itself.

 

Yes, so it would seem.

 

The title of this thread was more of a continuation to my very first one on LS.

 

Despite any similarities my story may share with another, it's still not a cookie-cutter situation, however. We can take heed of other people's advice and experience, but we can't really learn from them.

 

Some are smart enough to avoid the situation all together. Clearly, I was not. And believe you me, that's a blow to my pride, since I've always been considered fairly intelligent.

[road]

Yes, so it would seem.

 

The title of this thread was more of a continuation to my very first one on LS.

 

Despite any similarities my story may share with another, it's still not a cookie-cutter situation, however. We can take heed of other people's advice and experience, but we can't really learn from them.

 

Some are smart enough to avoid the situation all together. Clearly, I was not. And believe you me, that's a blow to my pride, since I've always been considered fairly intelligent.

 

 

Still trying to make what you did was ok and unique.

 

All affairs are basically the same.

 

Same tired old lines are used by the AP's.

 

We can learn from other people. Though many chose to ignore.

[JustAReformedGirl]

Still trying to make what you did was ok and unique.

 

All affairs are basically the same.

 

Same tired old lines are used by the AP's.

 

We can learn from other people. Though many chose to ignore.

 

I'm not implying the affair was okay, at all. Surely you took note of me saying,

 

"Some are smart enough to avoid the situation all together. Clearly, I was not."

 

I am merely pointing out that though we can heed other's warnings, we can't actually learn from their experiences.

 

Experiences are very personal, no matter how similar they appear. But again, you're entitled to your opinion.

[JustAReformedGirl]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but what is/does cuckhold mean

 

From my basic understanding (it's not a stupid question, I didn't know it either, until I came to LS) it's when a man is essentially made a fool of, when his wife sleeps with another.

 

Some men know they are being cuckolded, and do nothing about it.

 

I *think* I got that right, anyway.

[BetrayedH]

From my basic understanding (it's not a stupid question, I didn't know it either, until I came to LS) it's when a man is essentially made a fool of, when his wife sleeps with another.

 

Some men know they are being cuckolded, and do nothing about it.

 

I *think* I got that right, anyway.

 

The truest definition of the term is a man with an unfaithful wife.

 

That said, more conventional views are that it also includes the man's acceptance or even enjoyment of being cuckolded.

[JustAReformedGirl]

I would like to apologize to Rebel Dynasty for the thread jack. You are a better woman than I, more capable of honesty, more capable of love, and you probably can handle ALL other viewpoints like a normal person.

 

'Tis okay. I'm not upset, and I don't think myself better than you; we may be different, but that's about the extent of it.

 

And not always; sometimes I don't take it as well as I should. Everyone has their snapping point.

[Speakingofwhich]

All affairs are basically the same. Same tired old lines are used by the AP's.

 

This is blatantly false, Road. All affairs are not the same and the same tired old lines are not used by all the APs.

 

Affairs are as varied as the unique people involved in them, the circumstances of their lives and their moral compasses, all which may differ drastically one from the other.

 

There are people at one end of the spectrum who are in affairs and are doing it solely to have fun (play). They may have no guilt whatsoever and never give a thought to the BSs.

 

There are people who never intended to begin an affair, who fought the desire for a long time and who, once they are in the affair, experience deep guilt on a daily basis. And who have tortured thoughts of what they are doing to the BSs, the children involved and to God. Yet, continue on in the affair.

 

And there are a host of other types of people in between these two extremes on the spectrum. There are also other types of spectrums involved.

 

The "lines" these people tend to say to each other are vastly different. I could go on, but you get the point.

[Pierre]

RR said:

 

It sucks having no one fight for you, doesn't it? It's not an ego thing...it's a deep urge. You want to feel really, REALLY valued...

 

 

 

 

It is what it is. There is no judging or anything else involved. This is the key to recovery. It is worth exploring how the above statement shapes a person's life.

[LBlanc]

...

 

Passion matters MORE than morals in life. ...

 

while i do get people need passion in their lives ... i don't think this should be all there needs to be...

 

...and your premise could screw you up quite bad...

 

...suppose one of the two people you had to reach into and pull out of the fire was somebody's infant and the other the one your most passionate about...

 

..which one would you really pull out of the fire?

[Pierre]

Love is about being valued. Not validated. Valued.

 

Your definition of love is not conventional or common.

 

******************************************************

from Dictionary.com

 

LOVE

 

noun

1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.

2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.

3. sexual passion or desire.

4. a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart.

5. (used in direct address as a term of endearment, affection, or the like): Would you like to see a movie, love?

 

 

Webster

 

Definition of LOVE

 

1

a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates>

b : an assurance of affection <give her my love>

2

: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion <love of the sea>

3

a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration <baseball was his first love>

b (1) : a beloved person : darling —often used as a term of endearment (2) British —used as an informal term of address

4

a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others

b : a person's adoration of God

5

: a god or personification of love

6

: an amorous episode : love affair

7

: the sexual embrace : copulation

8

: a score of zero (as in tennis)

9

capitalized Christian Science : god

— at love

: holding one's opponent scoreless in tennis

— in love

: inspired by affection

See love defined for English-language learners »

See love defined for kids »

************************************************

 

 

I just don't see your value definition in love. Can you explain some more.

 

 

 

Passion matters MORE than morals in life.

 

 

OK, so you are a hedonist.

 

Do you realize Hitler was passionate?

 

Don't get me wrong passion is important, but only within certain frameworks. Passion for the sake of passion with no regard to others is not productive and downright illogical.

 

 

If you fixate on what people do wrong or right ALL THE TIME, you are missing the point of life.

 

 

Whatever gives you pleasure is not the standard of morality. But, you are welcome to head in the wrong direction and even crash your own vehicle as long as there are no other casualties.

[road]

This is blatantly false, Road. All affairs are not the same and the same tired old lines are not used by all the APs.

 

Affairs are as varied as the unique people involved in them, the circumstances of their lives and their moral compasses, all which may differ drastically one from the other.

 

There are people at one end of the spectrum who are in affairs and are doing it solely to have fun (play). They may have no guilt whatsoever and never give a thought to the BSs.

 

There are people who never intended to begin an affair, who fought the desire for a long time and who, once they are in the affair, experience deep guilt on a daily basis. And who have tortured thoughts of what they are doing to the BSs, the children involved and to God. Yet, continue on in the affair.

 

And there are a host of other types of people in between these two extremes on the spectrum. There are also other types of spectrums involved.

 

The "lines" these people tend to say to each other are vastly different. I could go on, but you get the point.

 

 

No you do not get the point. Living in denial.

[Owl]

Love is about being valued. Not validated. Valued. There is no love in being good buddies, companionate partners, fabulous coparents, socially matched sharers of values, financially matched business partners. When people stop really valuing the person they love THEY LOSE THEM. Sometimes they lose them to someone else. Sometimes it doesn't happen when it's convenient.

 

I was just watching the School of Rock with my kids. It's about a guy who teaches passion above all things. I love this movie and Jack Black's characterization is one of the greatest works of art of all time. Gielgud's Lear has nothing on him. If you are a staunch moralist you see in this character an irresponsible guy who pathologically lies to achieve his ego needs. You are welcome to this viewpoint and remind me never to go to the movies with you.

 

Passion matters MORE than morals in life. Every great accomplishment came from passionate, not moral, people. If I had to reach into a fire and pull out one of two people, I would choose the most passionate one, because their loss would be the only one that mattered. The good one, the sanctimonious one, can turn to dust and collect on their good deeds in Heaven, as far as I'm concerned.

 

If you fixate on what people do wrong or right ALL THE TIME, you are missing the point of life. I am not advocating being irresponsible. If I put my validation needs above everyone else's, I'd be f*cking like bunnies with MM right now, and I can think of NOTHING on earth I'd rather do. But I don't. Because I'm basically a good person. But I don't ever---EVER--fixate on other peoples' failings. Unless they keep pushing me. Then I go nuts. I'm pretty sure I destroyed my marriage this way. I make a terrible abuse victim. I could emasculate a stud bull in the middle of group orgy of blue ribbon cows. This is how I lose the man.

 

My views on affairs are treated like "bizarre rationalizations" but THEY PREDATE YOURS BY THOUSANDS OF YEARS. YOU GUYS are the weird ones, with this neo-conservative view of love being an iron clad sacrament where ONE PERSON MEETS ALL YOUR NEEDS FOR 50 years (who's the weirdo idealist here?) and which only NPD/bipolar/psychotic/sociopath addicts dare dishonor... Your trust in modern day therapy-speak is laughable--I am extremely well versed in all manner of counselling/addiction/recovery/metaphysical/spiritual works. They have helped me some, and in some ways have shown their limits, which are many.

 

Open your minds, people. The answer is always BOTH. Tread mindfully. Recognize the cases in which you think you're being logical but really you're just prejudiced by pain. FEEL your pain. Stop speaking in platitudes.

 

I find this entire post humorous!!

 

You go on and on about how "we" judge others...yet I don't know that you could have fit much more judgement into your post if you'd tried stuffing it in with a forklift.

 

You disagree with the notion that others should conform to society's views/standards on interaction...and yet insult and denigrate those that don't share yours??

 

Non-sequiter.

 

Just because your views are different, don't assume that they're somehow better, or superior.

 

People have felt massively betrayed and emotionally devestated by the infidelity of someone they've trusted and loved for thousands of years...don't think that the concept of monogamy came about last week as a result of a men's poker game in a back room in Chicago.

 

Neither viewpoint is "new". Nor correct, for that matter.

 

I have no issues with those that don't want to remain monogamous. It's simple...if that's how you feel...don't ever promise monogamy. (DUH!!!)

 

If you develop a relationship with someone who HAS promised monogamy...don't be freaking butthurt if that person who is emotionally devestated by the broken promises doesn't like you, and treats you as part of the situation that caused their pain.

 

Kinda simple when you stop and break it down, no?

[waterwoman]

I love passionate people too. People who are passionate about their hobby, their music, their art, their kids etc. No problem with that. If you want to be passionate about lots of sex, multiple lovers, again no problem, just don't promise otherwise to someone who trusts you.

[harrybrown]

I feel for your husband. Could you be a little more selfish and just twist the knife a little deeper? How would you feel if he treated you the way you are treating him?

[thecharade]

Passion is necessary, but there are many ways to get it once it has gone. An A might supply it, or you could get a D and start over entirely. But it often can be found by working harder on the marriage, and many people choose (due to lack of knowledge usually) not to. Even though I did and will always love my AP, I could have and should have worked on the lack of passion in my life with my H. I just didn't know how to accomplish that. (The things I tried had failed.)

 

Losing passion in an M is normal, I agree, but when does it become dangerous? That's the real question. I think that complacency is dangerous in an M, and I've read the same thing. I don't think people should have to live in fear and anxiety either, but I think they need to avoid complacency. You can't take your relationship for granted, which is what my H and I did. And now here I am. But it easily could have been my H having an A, too. I wouldn't have blamed him.

[Pierre]

I'm pretty sure I'm not Hitler. Wait...let me check...nope. Not a hedonist either.

 

I am quite certain you are not. But, you go on your defensive posture and write a bit of hyperbole to shock the pious formerly betrayed posters. However, I think it is important to analyze the stuff you write because it represents something within you.

 

How many OW's visit the BS board to torture them?

 

It should not be about us against them. This should be a learning experience that you receive for free and could be better than seeing a shrink for 45 minutes once a week for a couple of month. In particular a shrink that makes sure to say what you want to hear to keep you as a client. IMHO, not very useful.

 

Not gonna crash the car, either, thanks.

I am NOT an unrepentant OW. The opposite is true, actually. I just blame a variety of forces for the actions of people in love. I'm just not a "personal responsibility" Nazi. Did I say Nazi? Why yes. Yes, I did.

 

LOVE????

 

Is this the LOVE that you equate with being valued?

 

People that need love to be valued fall very hard. Did you know that?

[Pierre]

I think "working really hard on getting the passion back" is a wonderful idea...no doubt invented by women, who seem to be the ones to initiate and do ALL the work...but I think it's a bit of wishful thinking. I observe marriages where the couple is often "working on things." The W is buying the massage oils, the lingerie, the H is going on family vacations, hanging around, saying yes to everything. And he is ogling at/fantasizing about/propositioning the woman next to him. And the W always looks upset & insecure and...I dunno...angry.

 

I am thinking, in particular, of about 5 marriages in my circle. I am also thinking of times in my past when I "worked really hard" and should've instead, cut my losses. In the words of Lou Reed "Some people work very hard, but still they never get it right...I'm beginning to see the light." Another quote I love: "You can't force beauty."

 

Birds of the same feather fly together. But, I agree with you. These things cannot be forced or acted out. Some people are simply not able to have a successful relationship beyond the early romantic stage. They tend to be miserable because they need more. Some folk never get it. Some folks are black holes for attention.

 

Even trying too hard to be that "freak in the sheets" to hang onto your man, seems like this same kind of rigid perfectionism. "Honey, after the Retrovauille Weekend, I've booked the Monday couples massage special and I have to run out immediately to my Pole Dancing Class. When I get home, we'll break out your favorite porno and those anal beads, hmm 'kay?! See you at 5:15. Can you help me tie my training corset, I'm late for work!?" (Closes subZero refrigerator door, sets the Crockpot timer, "sends" that soccer email with a single click, then trips on hooker heels sashaying across the kitchen's Travertine floor.)

 

All these bells and whistles are for the amateurish folks that do not get it. Honestly, IMO everything you mention above is not erotic. In fact, it can be boring. Those that can do fantasy correctly do not need that stuff. Simply use the best sex organ in your body: The Brain.

 

I dunno. I just think when the love fades, it's better to lose interest in your spouse for a while and just see what happens. I think the 180 is hugely effective. Kind of like: if you get rejected, hold your ground and know your value and take all your toys away and disappear for a while. Then find your way back to each other accidentally...earn each others' love in a surprising new way....or move on.

 

Yes and no. Sure, there is such a thing as hysterical bonding after doing the 180. But, there is much more and many folks simply cannot get there.