Are PUA's really sociopaths in training??

[ThaWholigan]

I think there are always going to be bad outcomes as well as good that come from a broad industry such as PUA. Much of the material is likely going to appeal the more extreme or with the capacity for "sociopathic tendencies" already in tow.

 

Myself, I read PUA at a time because I was curious as to whether it could improve my communication with women. Some of it appealed to me and I focused on it. And sure enough, it helped me do so. The rest of it was largely a curious read and admittedly an opportunity to observe social interactions more closely than before. I don't consider myself sociopathic - maybe somewhat detached but I'm not apathetic.

 

I realize that a lot of women won't respond favorably to some of the ideologies behind and presented at times in PUA, and some of the material I have read make me understand. But I don't believe that every man who expresses an interest in the material has bad intentions, or lean towards sociopathic tendencies. Some of them really just want to better communicate with women on a romantic level and simply don't know how.

 

There is no wrong side here, and the women are perfectly entitled to not be comfortable with something as double edged as PUA, but that doesn't mean is automatically make you hurt or hold contempt for women.

[RedRobin]

I think there are always going to be bad outcomes as well as good that come from a broad industry such as PUA. Much of the material is likely going to appeal the more extreme or with the capacity for "sociopathic tendencies" already in tow.

 

Myself, I read PUA at a time because I was curious as to whether it could improve my communication with women. Some of it appealed to me and I focused on it. And sure enough, it helped me do so. The rest of it was largely a curious read and admittedly an opportunity to observe social interactions more closely than before. I don't consider myself sociopathic - maybe somewhat detached but I'm not apathetic.

 

I realize that a lot of women won't respond favorably to some of the ideologies behind and presented at times in PUA, and some of the material I have read make me understand. But I don't believe that every man who expresses an interest in the material has bad intentions, or lean towards sociopathic tendencies. Some of them really just want to better communicate with women on a romantic level and simply don't know how.

 

There is no wrong side here, and the women are perfectly entitled to not be comfortable with something as double edged as PUA, but that doesn't mean is automatically make you hurt or hold contempt for women.

 

That's fine. I guess I have one more three letter acronym to look for and avoid when I meet men now.

 

I want nothing to do with any man who follows this or anything like it. Sorry.

[Weezy1973]

Hmmm... well, once upon a time, young men and women went to dances growing up...

 

and had female relatives (like my dad did. Three sisters and a wonderful, loving mother).

 

I dunno, maybe they went to church and had friends.

 

Maybe they only needed to find one, maybe two good women in their LIFE... not scores of them to validate their 'manhood'.

 

anyway, I'm not picking on you. This just validates what I believed and am doing already.

 

Thank you very much for your thoughts

 

I agree 100% - times have changed. Specifically, once the focus of relationships changed from something external (i.e. having a family) - the whole dynamic changed. Back in the day that you're talking about, what attracted people to each other were qualities in another person that made them good family material.

 

Nowadays, people's focus is much more individual - and more specifically - based on one's career. This has made the qualities one looks for in a mate to be less about "parenting qualities" and more about other qualities such as sexual adeptness, social skills, excitement etc. And, like you said, this has changed the dynamic immeasurably.

 

Therefore many men that would make great parents (i.e. loyal, empathetic, patient etc.) do not get "chosen" because they lack the social skills (often because they are the offspring of men who were chosen primarily because of their parenting skills). And because it doesn't come naturally, they have to learn those social skills in order to attract women.

 

Again, there is no part of this that makes them sociopathic.

[ThaWholigan]

That's fine. I guess I have one more three letter acronym to look for and avoid when I meet men now.

 

I want nothing to do with any man who follows this or anything like it. Sorry.

That's fine, just as long as you know that its not something that most dudes really "follow", outside of the hardcore group that still peacock, neg and DHV.

[sillyanswer]

Flash forward... despite the fact that I did everything I could to save my marriage, and am now shoved headfirst into what feels like a *&^%$ cess pool of men looking to either punish women for whatever their exes did to them... or 'sow the oats' they never did when they were younger... and this is something I'm supposed to tolerate.

 

Regarding the part I bolded, Why do you think that? Who said so?

[Woggle]

Many people these days see male/female relationship as two opposing forces trying to get one over on the other. Men see PUA as giving them an advantage in the battle of the sexes. The men I know who are hardcore into this stuff see things as play women or they play you. I don't subscribe to this belief and I have always been upfront and sincere with women but the men who do this are very damaged people who want to gain an upper hand.

 

I think a lot of men are just sick and tired of being the nice guy and getting chewed up and spit. The sad fact is that not many women these days actually appreciate a man like the OP's father. If more did PUA would be much less popular with men.

[Taramere]

I think the element of it that involves making money out of selling books, seminars etc would certainly appeal to conmen - as would the notion of learning to manipulate other people to do what you want.

 

On a less dramatic scale, I think PUA would attract a lot of people who are of a narcissistic disposition. When I've read sites geared towards PUA, some of them quite happily admit to being narcissists - but you wonder if they actually understand what that means. I think some do. You can see it in those posts where they're expressing some sort of identity crisis. Narcissism is all about lacking a strong sense of self - and looking for something to fill the void....and I think that's where a lot of them are, rather than being actual sociopaths.

 

It was the same with The Rules. I remember reading it and just being completely "ugh". I could actually picture a Rules Girl/Creature Unlike Any Other. I thought of women I'd encountered in life who it reminded me of, and they were fairly dull people. A theory like that is fine for somebody who hasn't much personality. They can just absorb this Rules Girl persona - and there are probably men who would like that sort of woman. A friend of mine was talking recently about her sister in law being like that. Has no interests in life and is the dullest person ever - but as my friend's brother likes to spend all day in the golf club, having a wife who won't object to that, and will let him shag her when he gets in, without much fuss or ceremony, is his main priority.

 

These people exist. They're not necessarily sociopaths or even suffering from any particular disorder. They're just run-of-the-mill Jack or Jill, devoid of much personality, spirit or a mind of their own. Happy to have some self appointed guru dictate to them how they should run their personal lives in the same way that they'll let PR people tell them how they should spend their money, where they should go on holiday and what music they should be listening to.

[Revolver]

Some women refer to PUA like its the god damn boogey man;)

 

 

I think the reason for this is obviously fear. Almost every woman has been burned by a "player" or 2 in her life. I mean this is one of the reasons many women are bitter and jaded about men. This idea that there's a product that is potentially creating more of these guys is scary because it means the more you have to keep your guard up and be defensive about any guy who approaches or tries to talk to you.

 

But what most women fail to realize when it comes this is that the guys who then to PUA 99% of the time are guys in your everyday life who you were never checking for in the first place. These guys were pretty much irrelevant from a romantic and sexual standpoint to most women. I really doubt any type of "tactics" is really going to change a guy you regarded as a "HELL NO" to a "yes".

 

PUA at its core past all the window dressing just tells men to be confident about themselves and as Joysticked said yesterday see THEMSELVES as the prize. Men from a young age are told to put women on a pedastal, they're told that you're not really complete as a man unless you have an attractive woman on your arm. The problem with that is that many guys eat this up and the ones who can't have this happen are bound to feel terrible about themselves. And as we know women value confidence alot and hate men who are insecure.

 

This is why I always thought this debate was funny. Women always complain that men don't want to "improve" themselves but when there is a product that has helped many guys "improve" themselves in regards to attracting women you got girls who hate on them for it;)

[RedRobin]

Many people these days see male/female relationship as two opposing forces trying to get one over on the other. Men see PUA as giving them an advantage in the battle of the sexes. The men I know who are hardcore into this stuff see things as play women or they play you. I don't subscribe to this belief and I have always been upfront and sincere with women but the men who do this are very damaged people who want to gain an upper hand.

 

I think a lot of men are just sick and tired of being the nice guy and getting chewed up and spit. The sad fact is that not many women these days actually appreciate a man like the OP's father. If more did PUA would be much less popular with men.

 

agreed on the first. However, I also feel a lot of these guys really are trying to take advantage, and well... just take. I DO see them as sociopaths in training.

 

... and TBH, this is probably one of the biggest reasons why I personally coach young women to avoid much older men. They choose much younger women because they are easier to manipulate.

 

and on the second... I'm not sure what you mean by 'nice' or getting 'chewed up and spit'. My observation is that a lot of the guys who claim to be 'nice' really aren't.

 

... and regarding my dad... if more men acted like my Dad, I'm sure they'd have similar results. But they are so obsessed with appearing macho and attempting to prove their 'manhood' by screwing as many women as possible, GIGs, and monkey branching, that they never will have what he has. The love of ONE good woman for their lifetime.

[RedRobin]

I think the element of it that involves making money out of selling books, seminars etc would certainly appeal to conmen - as would the notion of learning to manipulate other people to do what you want.

 

On a less dramatic scale, I think PUA would attract a lot of people who are of a narcissistic disposition. When I've read sites geared towards PUA, some of them quite happily admit to being narcissists - but you wonder if they actually understand what that means. I think some do. You can see it in those posts where they're expressing some sort of identity crisis. Narcissism is all about lacking a strong sense of self - and looking for something to fill the void....and I think that's where a lot of them are, rather than being actual sociopaths.

 

It was the same with The Rules. I remember reading it and just being completely "ugh". I could actually picture a Rules Girl/Creature Unlike Any Other. I thought of women I'd encountered in life who it reminded me of, and they were fairly dull people. A theory like that is fine for somebody who hasn't much personality. They can just absorb this Rules Girl persona - and there are probably men who would like that sort of woman. A friend of mine was talking recently about her sister in law being like that. Has no interests in life and is the dullest person ever - but as my friend's brother likes to spend all day in the golf club, having a wife who won't object to that, and will let him shag her when he gets in, without much fuss or ceremony, is his main priority.

 

These people exist. They're not necessarily sociopaths or even suffering from any particular disorder. They're just run-of-the-mill Jack or Jill, devoid of much personality, spirit or a mind of their own. Happy to have some self appointed guru dictate to them how they should run their personal lives in the same way that they'll let PR people tell them how they should spend their money, where they should go on holiday and what music they should be listening to.

 

I'll go look that up then...

 

I guess what scares me about this... is that I have come across enough men who you could say fits the description of using these tactics...

 

Of course, here I am not trying to get one up or over anyone. Just trying to build intimacy and get to know someone. Trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt... realizing that we all have our hurts in life.

 

What they are doing is attempting to destroy my desire to be open and giving, taking advantage of my desire to express empathy and understanding... the exact thing the PUA defenders SAY they want. It is like, life isn't giving them what they want... so the best they can do is go out and do damage or try to. Or they want to use me as some kind of stepping stone to build their so called 'success'... This is why I've equated it with sociopaths... but I'll look up NPD too.

 

I think there is no way I'm ever going to believe that anyone who follows this strategy is trying to connect with a woman in a meaningful way... as much as they'd like to claim otherwise.

[therhythm]

PUA = Dating for losers hand book... people who manipulate others to get their own benefit are disgusting...

[joystickd]

Pertaining to the mod's warning... perhaps I'll make this more personal rather than having a debate on PUA tactics in general...

 

I'm a woman who dates men, so folks, let's keep that in mind.

 

I've not been through a string of 'bad boys'. I was a late-blooming geek girl who barely dated throughout high school and college. Noone asked me out. I worked my way through school. Solely on my own. My parents didn't have the money. I'm only the second person in my family to even get a college education.

 

I've never 'gold-dug' any man... since my very first day as a dating woman, I always paid half. It's in my genetics, apparently... Deeply bred into me by my parents and family that everyone pulls their own weight... and I have.

 

When I divorced, my ex's inheritance went 100% back to him (he was from old money... we didn't have a prenup)... I insisted on it!! Had to tell his dad to f*ck off when he got paranoid about money and tried to get lawyers involved. We didn't. Thank God.

 

Flash forward... despite the fact that I did everything I could to save my marriage, and am now shoved headfirst into what feels like a *&^%$ cess pool of men looking to either punish women for whatever their exes did to them... or 'sow the oats' they never did when they were younger... and this is something I'm supposed to tolerate.

 

... and what do they turn to for advice? PUA stuff.

 

They don't turn to decent men who actually care about women.

 

... and these 'men' are back-slapped and high-fived for dating women young enough to be their daughters (WTF?!).

... for sleeping with however many women??

 

... for manipulating and lying about their feelings or lack of them, for what?

 

WHAT????????????

 

I didn't deserve this.

 

Lots of women (ok, people) don't deserve this.

 

I'm so done with 'dating' when I read stuff like this.

 

My dad is still here. He's here through the end of the month... and I know he misses my mom. It's so sweet that he wants to help with the house.

 

Their life hasn't been perfect, but god*mn if I'm not envious as h*ll at the shyte they will never have to endure in this *&^% dating world.

 

'Maybe' women will usually leave men feeling agitated and bitter in the long run - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

The social programming of women often leaves many men confused and frustrated - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

Men and women have vastly different attitudes toward casual sex and friendship - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

To be (a liar), or not to be (a liar) ... that is the question that all men face - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

Men, be wary of the 'you just want to get in my pants' guilt trap - Los Angeles Men's Dating Advice | Examiner.com

Women are confusing and to a man out here having trouble getting off the bench PUA has some use. Funny thing is the way the internet connects people creates this illusion that PUA is actually bigger than what it is.

 

Dating is tough for men too. Have you ever thought about that? The problem is when you learn something and see it as bad now you simply look for it. A man that is not a PUA but says something that triggers you is a PUA. He may never even heard of negging and just being playful. A guy plays you and uses you for sex but now he is a PUA but that guy may have never even heard of it or if he did thought of it as something for losers. A guy that is dirty macking is a PUA. PUA is a tool in the same way a gun is a tool. Some people use it for good and some for bad but that has to do more with the internal motivations for seeking it out.

 

What is the problem with men wanting younger women? Let's be honest here there are a lot of burned out women after you reach a certain age. Other than that there are more and more women dating younger men. Maybe that is a possibility because there are some burned out men out here too. The relationship that lasted a year for me was the only time I ever dated someone younger than me.

 

My other reason is like I always say check your own gender. PUA is used because it works and people do what works. There are women that fall for it. I see women and men complain about what the opposite sex does ex pushing for sex, golddiggers, etc. On some level its your own genders fault. That manipulator is going to keep doing that same thing because it works because there is some guy that dates with his wallet or some woman that think sex is the way to a man and there is someone to capitalize on it. Have you ever considered the possibility that those two people are manipulators too? The thing is when you manipulate you open yourself up for manipulation too.

[joystickd]

That's fine. I guess I have one more three letter acronym to look for and avoid when I meet men now.

 

I want nothing to do with any man who follows this or anything like it. Sorry.

Sometimes one wonders if you are actually wanting a relationship and are open to it.

[joystickd]

PUA = Dating for losers hand book... people who manipulate others to get their own benefit are disgusting...

There are more guys that think this way than anything. The inner game and confidence building stuff about PUA is great but the approaching and dating aspects of it suck. I have read enough books to know. There are males out here that offer a less complicated teaching method

[RedRobin]

I think from now on, the best thing for me here on LS is simply to put those who follow PUA on my ignore list.

 

I'm not interested in anything they have to say... since all they seem to want to do is harm women. They aren't getting any of it here from me if I can help it.

 

So, thanks SG, on your other thread.

 

As I've said before... snakes gotta be snakes. No sense getting mad about it. They don't know any other way to be. Just avoid them.

 

*deep breath*

[Taramere]

I'll go look that up then...

 

I guess what scares me about this... is that I have come across enough men who you could say fits the description of using these tactics...

 

Of course, here I am not trying to get one up or over anyone. Just trying to build intimacy and get to know someone. Trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt... realizing that we all have our hurts in life.

 

What they are doing is attempting to destroy my desire to be open and giving, taking advantage of my desire to express empathy and understanding... the exact thing the PUA defenders SAY they want. It is like, life isn't giving them what they want... so the best they can do is go out and do damage or try to. Or they want to use me as some kind of stepping stone to build their so called 'success'... This is why I've equated it with sociopaths... but I'll look up NPD too.

 

I think there is no way I'm ever going to believe that anyone who follows this strategy is trying to connect with a woman in a meaningful way... as much as they'd like to claim otherwise.

 

I think you can gauge these things from how a person approaches other aspects of their life and how they treat people generally. I find the American formalised system of dating quite bizarre. It's like "let's have the date first and try to develop the chemistry in that context" rather than seeing somebody around, developing a friendship with them and having chemistry in the context of that friendship - then taking it from there.

 

This whole "hitting on complete strangers" thing is always a bit odd, and you wonder if it ever actually works. It reminds me of when I've gone abroad and strangers will walk up to you in the street, trying to pick you up. You think "does anybody ever actually say yes to these guys?" You just wouldn't. A total stranger trying to hit on you in a very obvious way.

 

On the other hand, I get talking to people - often guys - in my local park as part of dog walking. We'll stand there in the middle of the park, total strangers having these quite personal conversations. I know more than I should about a lot of the people who go dogwalking in that park, and they probably know more than they should about me. It's my RL equivalent of Loveshack in a way. That's how I'd be most likely to meet The Guy. Getting to know somebody over time through a series of those brief encounters, chemistry building up and one of us eventually plucking up the courage to invite the other to some social event.

 

I don't know if I'm typical of women, but for me I don't tend to get butterflies about complete strangers. Maybe occasionally if they're exceptionally good looking (though even then, if they hit on me in a very overt and sexual way I'd go off them, because I'd think "ugh - gigolo type"). More often that fluttery feeling will build up over time. You won't think anything in particular about the guy the first few times you meet him, but then one day you find yourself looking out for him and feeling excited when you see him.

 

Which is, basically, Friends First. The PUA thing is not about men making friends with women. It's about hitting on women very soon, making it a "numbers game" etc...which means that essentially the pool of women they're dating is a relatively small one consisting of women who are open to being hit on by strangers.

[joystickd]

 

Which is, basically, Friends First. The PUA thing is not about men making friends with women. It's about hitting on women very soon, making it a "numbers game" etc...which means that essentially the pool of women they're dating is a relatively small one consisting of women who are open to being hit on by strangers.

Honestly dating is a numbers game.

[joystickd]

I think you can gauge these things from how a person approaches other aspects of their life and how they treat people generally. I find the American formalised system of dating quite bizarre. It's like "let's have the date first and try to develop the chemistry in that context" rather than seeing somebody around, developing a friendship with them and having chemistry in the context of that friendship - then taking it from there.

 

This whole "hitting on complete strangers" thing is always a bit odd, and you wonder if it ever actually works. It reminds me of when I've gone abroad and strangers will walk up to you in the street, trying to pick you up. You think "does anybody ever actually say yes to these guys?" You just wouldn't. A total stranger trying to hit on you in a very obvious way.

 

On the other hand, I get talking to people - often guys - in my local park as part of dog walking. We'll stand there in the middle of the park, total strangers having these quite personal conversations. I know more than I should about a lot of the people who go dogwalking in that park, and they probably know more than they should about me. It's my RL equivalent of Loveshack in a way. That's how I'd be most likely to meet The Guy. Getting to know somebody over time through a series of those brief encounters, chemistry building up and one of us eventually plucking up the courage to invite the other to some social event.

 

I don't know if I'm typical of women, but for me I don't tend to get butterflies about complete strangers. Maybe occasionally if they're exceptionally good looking (though even then, if they hit on me in a very overt and sexual way I'd go off them, because I'd think "ugh - gigolo type"). More often that fluttery feeling will build up over time. You won't think anything in particular about the guy the first few times you meet him, but then one day you find yourself looking out for him and feeling excited when you see him.

 

Which is, basically, Friends First. The PUA thing is not about men making friends with women. It's about hitting on women very soon, making it a "numbers game" etc...which means that essentially the pool of women they're dating is a relatively small one consisting of women who are open to being hit on by strangers.

The basic issue with PUA with women is that women want men to date like women in a sense. Just like the bitter guys on here want women to date like them. A guy that chooses PUA has been rejected and friendzoned so friends first is the last thing on his mind. They just want to know that a woman is into them and cut out the wasted time.

 

Funny thing is most of the PUAs are American and they do most of their seminars around the world. That right there says a lot. Now you have guys that are in other parts of the world becoming gurus and selling the stuff.