Proof that there is no God?

[JamesM]

In the OJ Simpson trial, he was found "not guilty" beyond a reasonable doubt. Although most experts seemed to agree (not all, of course) that he was indeed the one who committed the murder.

 

But when the standard of proof was made more reasonable in civil court, he was found guilty by a preponderance of the evidence.

 

Court cases are never about innocence or guilt. They are about the ability of the lawyers to simply "prove" their case. So methinks your analogy is not necessarily a good measure for God's existence.

 

He either exists or he doesn't no matter what you or I think. Having said that.....

 

According to Wikipedia "The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. Effectively, the standard is satisfied if there is greater than 50 percent chance that the proposition is true."

 

But in court, that standard is so subjective that it cannot apply to real truth. Your example of OJ is a good one for that. Most people believe his guilt (right or wrong) even though his lawyers convinced a jury otherwise.

 

With this as a starting point, one could look at any one of several hundred factors that pretty much leap right over this standard with ease. Here are a few:

 

1. Not one single shred of credible evidence for the extraordinary claims found in any religious text.

 

You have decided that the evidence is not credible...just as the jury decided that the evidence wasn't convincing.

 

However, as you have already read I am hoping, there is plenty of credible evidence presented to show that there is some intelligence that started life on this Earth and in this Universe. What that Intelligent Being is....well, that could be up for discussion.

 

2. The fact that virtually every scientific claim ever made by the Judeo-Christian texts has been refuted, from demonic possession (now we know it might be schizophrenia and is treatable),

 

Christians do not question that some cases of demon possession are in fact mental illnesses. This does not mean that the cases mentioned in the Bible (as an example) are all mental illnesses. But as you have even indicated, they "might be" which is not a given.

 

to the flat earth (we know it is spherical),

 

The Bible does not say that the Earth is flat.

 

 

to geocentrism ,

 

nor that the Earth is the center of the Universe. This was a belief of the scientific world more than the religious world.

 

to various afflictions attibuted to God's wrath (all sorts of bacterial infections can now be cured with antibiotics, earthquakes can be predicted to a certain degree, and we understand weather better than ever before).

 

The use of natural means as afflictions sent by God does not invalidate their origin or who is behind them. Granted, we have learned much about the world in the recent years and decades, but when we look at ancient history, we see that some of that was learned and lost prior.

 

3. Virtually all Christians, Muslims, and Jews are in fact Atheists in terms of the myriad other Gods who have come and gone over the ages - Zeuss, Thor, Mercury, Isis, Osiris, etc.

 

Of course, any monotheistic religion will not believe in other gods. This does not invalidate the existence of an Intelligent Being. What you have entered here is: if there is an Intelligent Being, "how shall we worship him?" That is all together different than "does He exist?"

 

This one is just another in a long line of gods. God him/herself even acknowledges as much several times in the bible (that other gods exist, but you can place none of those other gods before him)

 

Again, the proof of an Intelligent Being is separate from the definition of that Being. Even if every religion is wrong, this does not prove that there is no God.

 

4. Most Christian traditions and holidays were stolen from pagan celebrations that predate Christ. From Easter (Spring equinox) to Christmas (winter solstice) - Christians have plagiarized so much that it is nearly indistinguishable from the very heathen practices from whence they came!

 

Again, while this point has been shown to mostly false (some holidays have been modified to fit pagan holidays at times throughout the centuries), this has nothing to do with God's existence.

 

I could go on, but these major pieces of evidence make it clear that this is just one more in a long like of very flawed attempts to explain the purpose of life in the cosmos.

 

Please go on, because most of the points you have given would fail in a court of law as proofs that an Intelligent Being does not exist. You have set up many straw men arguments and knocked them down, but it would be nice to have some real ones that show how this Universe arose from nothing as if by magic.

 

If I were on a jury in a civil case and the standard of proof was a "preponderance of evidence" religion, god, Christianity and the rest of it would be dismissed outright and proven false once and for all.

 

Thank God you are not the jury then, because a verdict such as given in the OJ trial would be given here! Evidence that does not apply would be accepted and evidence that partially applies would be twisted to prove something that should not be proven.

 

It is good to see you back, and thanks for beginning a lively discussion.

[HighheelsAries]

I have seen proof that God does not exist. What are these proofs? They disapprove possession or flat earth, but how does that disprove God?

There is no evidence for this statement.

[M30USA]

Since you posted no evidence of the existence of god, am I to assume, as would the jury, you deem yourself privvy to some information the rest of us, are not?

 

Again, anecdotes aren't evidence. Neither are assumptions. Christians are so reactionary. "You saying there is no proof doesn't mean there isn't any proof because you haven't given any proof.

 

Nobody ever has, nor ever will, prove that God exists OR that he DOESN'T exist. The scientific method protocol had several criteria where, if even a single one of these criterion is unable to be satisfied, then the entire scientific method protocol cannot be used for that particular subject. One of these criterion is REPEATABILITY. You cannot REPEAT the presence/phenomenon of God as you would a chemical reaction in a lab. Therefore, if you want to prove or disprove God, you therefore MUST use other forms of evidence including historical documentation, archaeology, manuscript authenticity, and even corroborating personal testimony.

 

The real issue here is the human heart. You don't want God to be real because you don't want to be accountable to anyone but yourself and you don't want to consider the possibility that your actions might be deemed unacceptable or sinful to a holy God. That's the real issue, according to what Jesus Christ told people in his time who said the same things you are saying.

[JamesM]

Since you posted no evidence of the existence of god, am I to assume, as would the jury, you deem yourself privvy to some information the rest of us, are not?

 

I wasn't posting evidence because I was simply responding to S&R. The evidence is out there. The interpretation of it varies from person to person.

 

My point was simply to show how comparing the "lack of proof" to the OJ Trial was not IMO a good one.

 

Again, anecdotes aren't evidence. Neither are assumptions.

 

Actually, anecdotes ARE used as evidence. However, it is not as reliable as clinical or scientific evidence. If someone tells you that they prefer a certain doctor, then you may choose that doctor based on their information. Your opinion may either agree or differ after you have been to the doctor.

 

Christians are so reactionary.

 

I DID react to S&R's post as YOU reacted to my post. I don't think that only Christians are reactionary. We all react to others. That isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

"You saying there is no proof doesn't mean there isn't any proof because you haven't given any proof!"

 

You lost me here. You are right...I did not give proofs. My point was that S&R did not either.

 

It's absurd. I wouldn't take issue with Christians if they hadn't (And weren't continuing to do so) put everyone that disagreed with them to the gallows, and indoctrinated them all.

 

I would like to point out that it cannot be everyone as you are obviously alive and obviously disagree with Christians. Personally, in the good old US of A, I have not heard of anyone being brought to the gallows for disagreeing with Christians.

 

Just shut up, keep your religion to yourself, and let the rest of us figure it out.

 

I would like to add that I did not start this thread. I simply responded. S&R started it to get a lively discussion going. I think he wanted some of us who disagreed with him to respond. Personally, I like reading differing opinions...it helps ME figure it out.

 

There's no reason for anyone to expect anyone else to suddenly convert based on writings in a 2000 year old book.

 

Funny thing is that it happens all of the time. People become Christians based on what they read in the Bible and will continue doing so.

[M30USA]

Personally, in the good old US of A, I have not heard of anyone being brought to the gallows for disagreeing with Christians.

 

Yeah, that's the other religion, the "peaceful" one.

[M30USA]

There are no god forged chariots, no angelic remains, etc. None of it exists.

 

Tell us what angelic chariots would look like so that we may know if we ever see or discover one.

 

Additionally, tell us what angels as well as angelic-human hybrids look like so that if we discover them we can know for sure.

 

You have claimed there is nothing discovered yet. I propose to you there has been a plethora of discoveries but the problem is that people have no clue what they're looking for in the first place.

[M30USA]

Insipid,

 

I suggest getting up to date on the problems that scientists have encountered regarding prehistory and the various human races. The term "species" is becoming less used now because we don't even know what human means anymore. There are the Neanderthals, Denisovans, a third group which nobody has even named yet, and recently we have strange discoveries like the Atacama Mummy and the Starchild skull--both DNA tested and discovered to be "partly" human from an indiginous human female and an unknown father.

 

As far as the angelic chariots, I believe the "chrome" was a simile. I doubt such an advanced race would even use the same metals as us in the first place. From everything I've read in the Scriptures, it seems that the chariots, while clearly exhibiting physical traits to the eye, are not primarily physical in nature. In other words, they are spiritual (firstly) with the ability to physically manifest (secondly)--not physical with the ability to become spiritual. The research of Dr. Mack of Harvard lines up with this idea.

[M30USA]

Starchild has a known father. No dispute on that one. It's quite clear it had a genetic, known genetic, btw, disorder. That's a non starter. As for the rest, they are simply older "subhumans" and have similar DNA. I find it hard to believe anyone on earth would accept a Neanderthal as closer to god or semi angelic. That's preposterous.

 

 

 

Convenient, that -all- forms of evidence are "spiritual", but only those that cough up the party line are accepted, no? How. Convenient.

 

Not really. Read the account of Sgt. Jim Penniston, who touched a UFO in 1980. He was a militarily trained expert so he of all people should be qualified to say what is manmade and what is ET. He testifies that it was a solid object which was made of a dark yet clear material that had swirling blue and yellow light as if it were part of the surface. There were 30 total witnesses to that event.

 

As for the Starchild skull, please watch the video by Lloyd Pye where he lists a dozen medical doctors and/or surgeons who ruled out all known genetic disorders and hydrocephaly.

Edited October 2, 2013 by M30USA

[M30USA]

Yeah, and we're not discussing UFO's so that's a nonstarter. UFO's have nothing to do with well described angelic chariots in the bible. What is this? Some Scientology nonsense?

 

 

 

Lloyd Pye is a known hack, a crank putting his own brand of nonsense on ancient history. Please. Find a better source. The world over knows he's a hack. His arguments are chock full of 50 calibre sized holes. He just got rich off of it.

 

I'm not referencing Pye, I'm referencing the doctors/surgeons on his video. If a crackpot says the sky is blue, he is still correct even if he's a crackpot.

 

As for UFOs not being related to the angelic phenomenon, we are going to agree to disagree. I have discussed this ad nauseum on this forum. I will merely say that virtually ALL the credentialed researchers of UFOs point out the highly spiritual and metaphysical nature of the subject. They point out that the UFO subject is so enmeshed with spirituality that it often functions as a religion, with the occupants as functioning like angels of old.

[JamesM]

It's absurd. I wouldn't take issue with Christians if they hadn't (And weren't continuing to do so) put everyone that disagreed with them to the gallows, and indoctrinated them all. Just shut up, keep your religion to yourself, and let the rest of us figure it out. There's no reason for anyone to expect anyone else to suddenly convert based on writings in a 2000 year old book.

 

 

As for the gallows, history proves you, and James wrong.

 

Uh, reread your sentence and reread my response.

 

I never said that it has never happened. I simply pointed out your logical error. EVERYONE has not been brought to the gallows, and you yourself are a living example.

 

South America, indigenous peoples wiped out and converted by Spaniards, and now fully converted to Catholocism.

 

Currently, there are many different beliefs in South America. It is not fully Catholic. As for the Spaniards wiping out peoples....much of that was from the disease that they brought to the continent. I certainly concede that much colonization was done by Spaniards in the name of the Church when in reality, it should have been in the name of the Crown.

 

North America, heathen animist Indians wiped out and pushed to the brink of extinction in a now unremembered holocaust by Christian invaders.

 

Totally remembered. Sad history. Again, much of the colonization was to further the country invading. It was not all done in the name of religion. Many native Americans died from disease brought her.

 

The Middle East, Crusades, thousands slaughtered so Christians could assert dominance and claim the Holy Land.

 

Nordic nations, where christianity came to the Pagans with a sword.

 

Nope.

Christianization of Scandinavia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

In fact, this was more a political ploy, and thus plot, as Harald, king of the Danes, gave up the "old gods" for Germanic aid in taking the throne, thus the first domino in the chain.

 

Nope.

Harald Bluetooth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

(Side note....that is where Bluetooth come from).

 

This led to 150-200 years of indoctrination on a public that did not want change.

 

Whether they wanted it or not....I wasn't there to say. They never really were converted by the non-aggressive missionaries as now about ten percent of the Nordic countries are Christian.

 

The spectacle is, though, that Christians pay alot of lip service to the above factual proofs, yet deny that there is any wrong doing in "bringing others to light."

 

Actually, as you have stated the above...they are not all factual statements. They are not proofs of anything except that (even as alleged) they show how some people on the name of Christianity tried to conquer other peoples. While invasion brought Christianity to other nations (either in a right way or wrong way), invasion has brought religion to many countries that way. In fact, paganism has been brought to many nations via invasion.

 

And I disagree....Christians do NOT think that force is an acceptable way to convert people to their beliefs. No on can be saved except their heart and mind has been changed. No one can truly believe that God is King over all unless they have been convinced in their own heart. No sword will change them. It may change them outwardly, but it cannot change their mind and heart.

 

They insist that christianity is a happy, loving, open, tolerant religion.

 

Wrong. None insist that it is tolerant, because it is not tolerant of evil. While some have used the name of God to further their own agendas, Christianity as a belief does not embrace such evil.

 

It is not all happiness. It is not only loving but also just.

 

And it is not open to beliefs that are directly opposed to it. And pagans are not open to any belief that opposes them either.

 

 

Having gone through all of this line by line, it struck me that once again, none of this shows whether there is or isn't an Intelligent Being who created this world and universe. The above paragraphs only attempted to point out how people have pushed their own agendas using the name of God, or Allah, or whichever god they chose.

[M30USA]

I don't trust anything that comes out of Pye's camp. Just like that dude who argued the government controls minds. He apparently had a PhD and worked for the government. Turns out he was just an unemployed dbag just trying to get by the next rent check.

 

Pye and everything he touches is corrupt hackery.

 

 

 

Oh, there is no agreeing on my part. Not to disagree. Because you have no actual evidence of the spiritual in that realm. Misinformed delusions do not equate spiritual psychosis, after all. UFO's have absolutely nothing to do with this subject and should remain where they belong; science fiction novels.

 

 

Insipid,

 

It's evident that you know very little about the UFO phenomenon, other than the garbage on TV and from movies. The single best source of facts that you can get are in one book: "UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go On The Record" by Leslie Kean.

 

In summary, here are the proven facts which can be supported with ample evidence:

 

1) UFOs exist. There is much physical evidence and many credible witnesses.

2) While most cases CAN be identified as natural or manmade phenomenon, a small percentage of UFOs are proveably not manmade.

3) The only debate regarding UFOs, after education and debate, is WHAT ARE THEY? That is the ONLY debatable issue.

Edited October 3, 2013 by M30USA

[JamesM]

Sure, necks aren't being stretched - but in this nation, you think an Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim or Pagan can be president? Can they even be governor, mayor? Undoubtedly no, and this christianized decimation of the "freedom of religion" has to end now.

 

Again, you are changing the argument.

 

Atheists have not been elected president yet, but they have certainly been in other offices. Without even looking too far, the name Barney Frank comes to mind.

 

Others include Thomas Gore as Senator, Peter Stark as US Rep, and Jesse Ventura as Governor. I know there are more, but this already shows your statement as false.

 

 

Overarching historical themes of "bringing" the faith to third world countries under the guise of colonization, and you're going to dismiss the atrocities comitted in the name of god as happenstance disease spreading?

 

Actually, it is the other way around. Imperialism is the basis for much of the invasions that have occurred. Yes, colonization has been done in the name of religion (and not just Christianity), but most has been done for "the Crown."

 

What. A. Joke. History proves you wrong.

 

No. It. Doesn't.

 

 

And? It's genocide no matter how you slice it -

 

We agree.

 

and we have ample proof of the christian invaders providing small pox riddled blankets to the Indians. Some "loving" religion, no?

 

No, we don't. We have many rumors but only one actual example of someone suggesting that it be done. Lord Jeffrey Amherst, commander of British forces in North America during the French and Indian War discussed the possibility. There is no actual evidence that it was done.

The Straight Dope: Did whites ever give Native Americans blankets infected with smallpox?

Daily Kos: Genocide & Intent Of The Infected Blankets

 

Ward Churchill fabricated the myth in his book as explained here.

Did the U.S. Army Distribute Smallpox Blankets to Indians? Fabrication and Falsification in Ward Churchill's Genocide Rhetoric

 

And this had nothing to do with religion anyhow.

 

As an aside, it's totally forgotten.

 

No, it is not.

 

The country still stomps on the rights of Indians to this day,

 

One could argue that it doesn't stomp on them anymore than anyone else.

 

and there has been no vast reperations or any compensation for -our- genocide. In fact, it's hardly mentioned we comitted the genocide, only that it was a "war".

 

It has happened, and apologies have been given. More could be done. But again, this is not a "Christian" atrocity per se.

President Obama Signs Native American Apology Resolution |

 

 

Your own link provides amble evidence of converted Nordic kings waging wars, and thus, bringing Christianity further to the people. See below.

 

Okay, now you are stretching it. If every "Christian" country that has a war and conquers a land is on the table, then anything goes. We need to look at the INTENT of every war and why it was done. Was it a defensive war? Was it a proactive war intended to protect the country? Of course, when a country enters another, it brings its culture and religion with it. That does not mean that this was the intent behind the invasion or that it was even a just war.

 

 

Apologies, I meant this Harald: Harald Greycloak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Of Norway, not Denmark.

 

This says nothing about religion at all let alone Christianity.

 

Invasion seems to be the best tool religion has in spreading its fetid oppression, no?

 

No.

 

Then we must, agree?

 

If you mean to say that invasion is NOT the best tool, then yes, we agree.

 

Because honestly, it's still continuing to this day.

 

Invasions are.

 

Preaching US soldiers as reported in 2002-2005, spreading Christianity throughout Iraq and Afghanistan during the invasion - the evidence is there.

 

If they are, then it isn't the intent of the "invasion." I am sure that disease is being spread to these countries too, but that wasn't the intent. I am sure that pornography is being distributed, but that was not the intent. And my guess is that western ideals are being absorbed, but that was not nor is the intent.

 

Religion has more blood on its hands then any other line of philosophical reasoning that has ever existed.

 

Now you have jumped from Christianity to religion. And one could easily argue that atheistic philosophies have killed many people...and maybe even more than religion.

 

The way they spread this belief speaks volumes louder then soundbyte, dismissive nonsense, JamesM.

 

Agreed. Perhaps you may want to research some of your soundbytes a bit better.

 

Oh, it embraces it. Look to the midianites, the canaanites, etc. The bible itself contradicts you.

 

No, it tells of it. That doesn't mean it always embraces it.

 

Moreover, tolerance, yes. Ask for forgiveness, pray for forgiveness, commit the most horrid act (except, of course, disparaging the holy spirit) and if you pray, you are forgiven.

 

A good thing.

 

Point is, Christianity preaches this nonsense. I do not.

 

Being forgiven for horrid acts of sin is nonsense? I think not.

 

 

And you, nor anyone else, has provided any evidence such a being exists.

 

Or perhaps you have not seen the evidence that has been presented. Many many people who have looked at the arguments supporting the existence of an Intelligent Being disagree with your assessment.

 

In the meantime, christians will still pay lip service to the bloodshed done by their forefathers to bring christianity to the world,

 

No, they don't. Force will never convert a soul.

 

and repeat soundbyte nonsense,

 

or so you interpret it to be.

 

 

all the while usurping everyone else's holidays as their own. Ingenious!

 

Really!

Edited October 3, 2013 by JamesM

[JamesM]

I'll give you this.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Disagree.

 

Okay.

 

 

 

Yawn. There are documents released by the British Parliament that describe the plan. There are quotes of militia commanders. Evidence exists that the US Federal Government witheld funds for innoculation.

 

I had some coffee. You may want some too.

 

Anyhow, any website I went to denied those charges beyond a plan that never seemed to have been implemented.

 

It most certainly is when "Godless savages" is the typical descriptor of the American Indian, or "Dirt Worshipers" etc. All related to faith. And no, enough has not been done, nor will it be. It's the ignored dirty history.

 

While I could never say no one, I know of no one who calls anyone by those names. SO if it still happens, then it is on the fringe. As for it happening in the past, name calling has happened.

 

It is not ignored.

 

Uh huh. Are you an apologist?

 

Is it a good thing or a bad thing if I am?

 

Invasions most certainly have been the most effective way of subjugating a population to convert.

 

Invasions by themselves using force cannot change someone to becoming a true Christian. It may cause someone to act like one, but the sins of the heart cannot be removed except one asks for true forgiveness.

 

It's certainly the intent of the invasion.

 

So the intent of the wars in Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan have been solely for the purpose of Christianizing those countries? I think not. Oil? Yes, perhaps.

 

Christian crusaders for centuries have been trying to take out the middle east.

 

Nope. Perhaps you have a link besides the Crusades that were about taking back the countries invaded by the Muslims. Even still those would be between religions which wouldn't support your theory.

 

 

Read between the lines.

 

Sorry...try never to do that. That is how false assumptions are made.

 

Mythology. I suppose you'd be arguing about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot? Perhaps Pol Pot, but Hitler and Stalin both were absolutely acting out of religiously influenced regimes, not atheistic principals, so this argument is a nonstarter, a red herring even.

 

Uh, read a little more. The argument that Hitler was a "Christian" is weak at best. And just because Stalin had some training as a child in a religious academy did not mean it transferred to his adult beliefs. It didn't.

 

Nope. Proven.

 

 

Telling early Israelites to kill all them men, and take the young virgins for purposes undescribed is rather counter to your boast.

 

I wasn't boasting and I never said never...as you said always. Where does it say to "take the virgins for purposes undescribed" or something like that?

 

According to whom is it a good thing? Morality imposed on all of us by Christian demagogues?

 

No one makes you ask for forgiveness. No one says it is okay to do horrid things and then get forgiveness as if doing the horrid things becomes okay.

 

Where is this evidence? I've seen none. Enlighten me. Where is it?

 

Let me quote you.....

 

Yes, really. I won't bother posting a list with evidence, because it's widely accepted factual proof and is all over the internet readily available for all to see.

 

 

 

Yes, really. I won't bother posting a list with evidence, because it's widely accepted factual proof and is all over the internet readily available for all to see.

 

Let's see. This is in response to you saying everyone's holidays are usurped by Christians. I say it is not true. You say it is. Let's start with just a couple:

Ramadan in July....any correlation to Christian holidays?

Autumn Equinox in September......?

Vesak......First full moon of May......?

Rama Navani in April...... ?

 

And so it goes.

 

Granted, yes, some have been Christianized, but by far, not all.

[adelia]

I don't base my belief in god soley on the bible I have had living proof within my life and more importantly been open to receiving that proof. So many have it and never see and appreciate it.it's something that comes from within. If god didn't exist my daughter would not be alive right now among many other miracles.

[L1ght]

I don't base my belief in god soley on the bible I have had living proof within my life and more importantly been open to receiving that proof. So many have it and never see and appreciate it.it's something that comes from within. If god didn't exist my daughter would not be alive right now among many other miracles.

Nonsense. There is absolutely zero "living proof" of anything that even remotely indicates the existence of God. Nobody knows if he exists or not and anybody who says they definitely know is lying.

I mean get real.....You're saying that the voice you listen to inside your mind is proof of the existence if God. That is not an argument to prove his existence and until he makes an appearance in the reality that we as living breathing human beings live in then it is totally unjustified to say he is real.

This is the modern world we live in, cameras and instant worldwide connectivity everywhere through the internet. There is no better time for God to show his face to every human on the planet to prove that he does exist......I mean what is the point of not making an appearance? There is no point in not making an appearance and it is not logical to leave the world guessing. I actually believe that if he was real and revealed himself to the world that the world would become a better place so where the hell is he?

Believing in something so monumental on faith alone without a shred of actual evidence is just plain wrong. Believing in a story from 2000 years ago when we were relatively primitive beings and when there was no chance at all of recording his existence with actual evidence is foolish.

As for your daughter? What are you trying to say? that out of the billions of people on earth that you and your family are more special than all the people who live awful lives of suffering and heartache before they are butchered to death? That is totally ignorant and self absorbed.

Being born into a good or bad family is literally a roll of the dice and anyone who is fortunate enough to live in good circumstances should count themselves extremely lucky. The world is a complete sh*thole in many places on earth and I refuse to believe that a God worth worshiping would allow this place to continue to be the living hell it is for many while other people are born into a relative paradise.

Like I say....we don't know if he exists or not. The correct answer for every human on the planet is to say "I DON'T KNOW" because nobody does.

Edited October 4, 2013 by L1ght

[adelia]

Hi light

I'm not going to try and convince you there's a god but that's my belief. I feel it to the core of who I am and it's not from a bible. It's very real things that have happened to me and no I'm not any more special than any of his other children. I've had s lot bad go on in my life too. A lot of pain and loss but god has given me strength to get through it.

You sound very angry and I'm not saying that to patronize you. I hope you find your inner peace.

 

 

Nonsense. There is absolutely zero "living proof" of anything that even remotely indicates the existence of God. Nobody knows if he exists or not and anybody who says they definitely know is lying.

I mean get real.....You're saying that the voice you listen to inside your mind is proof of the existence if God. That is not an argument to prove his existence and until he makes an appearance in the reality that we as living breathing human beings live in then it is totally unjustified to say he is real.

This is the modern world we live in, cameras and instant worldwide connectivity everywhere through the internet. There is no better time for God to show his face to every human on the planet to prove that he does exist......I mean what is the point of not making an appearance? There is no point in not making an appearance and it is not logical to leave the world guessing. I actually believe that if he was real and revealed himself to the world that the world would become a better place so where the hell is he?

Believing in something so monumental on faith alone without a shred of actual evidence is just plain wrong. Believing in a story from 2000 years ago when we were relatively primitive beings and when there was no chance at all of recording his existence with actual evidence is foolish.

As for your daughter? What are you trying to say? that out of the billions of people on earth that you and your family are more special than all the people who live awful lives of suffering and heartache before they are butchered to death? That is totally ignorant and self absorbed.

Being born into a good or bad family is literally a roll of the dice and anyone who is fortunate enough to live in good circumstances should count themselves extremely lucky. The world is a complete sh*thole in many places on earth and I refuse to believe that a God worth worshiping would allow this place to continue to be the living hell it is for many while other people are born into a relative paradise.

Like I say....we don't know if he exists or not. The correct answer for every human on the planet is to say "I DON'T KNOW" because nobody does.

[JamesM]

First of all, the response to Adelia was less than nice to say the least. What you think of her beliefs is your opinion. How you respond to her shows us who you are. My guess is that you did not mean your response to be as it was perceived...at least by myself and her.

 

Second, I would like to respond to some of your comments, and I don't intend to disrespect your opinions. Forgive me if I do.

 

Nonsense. There is absolutely zero "living proof" of anything that even remotely indicates the existence of God.

 

Correct. An actual visible God has not been seen....unless you believe the accounts given to us regarding Jesus, which I doubt you do.

 

Evidence that He exists? Yes, it does.

 

Nobody knows if he exists or not and anybody who says they definitely know is lying.

 

We can deduce the existence of a God based on a number of evidences, but that would be a different thread.

 

I mean get real.....You're saying that the voice you listen to inside your mind is proof of the existence if God.

 

And who are you to say it is not? I have love for my wife and you do not. How can you presume that I cannot because you don't? Many have prayed and "heard" God over the centuries. Are all faking it and delusional? Probably not. Many love their partner an consider that person more special than my partner. Does that mean my love exists and theirs does not? No.

 

That is not an argument to prove his existence and until he makes an appearance in the reality that we as living breathing human beings live in then it is totally unjustified to say he is real.

 

Actually, no it is not unjustified. How do you know that Plato existed or Alexander the Great? Eyewitness accounts? Have you seen them?

 

If God is as great as the Bible says, then I doubt He needs to reveal Himself to mere humans who doubt His existence.

 

I asked the question of someone: if God knocked on your door, would you then believe He exists? Oddly enough, the person said he would consider the person simply a crazy old man.

 

You believe that man began from a single cell...why? Interpretation of evidence? Have you seen it happen?

 

 

This is the modern world we live in, cameras and instant worldwide connectivity everywhere through the internet. There is no better time for God to show his face to every human on the planet to prove that he does exist......I mean what is the point of not making an appearance?

 

What is the point of making an appearance?

 

There is no point in not making an appearance and it is not logical to leave the world guessing.

 

If He felt that He left enough evidence for His existence and millions believe His existence based on it, then why does He need to convince those that don't? The question is...does man need God or does God need man?

 

I actually believe that if he was real and revealed himself to the world that the world would become a better place

 

Man made the world into the place it is.

 

 

so where the hell is he?

 

Probably not there. If there is no God as you believe, then why would you believe in a Hell?

 

Believing in something so monumental on faith alone without a shred of actual evidence is just plain wrong.

 

The evidence is all around you. Philosophers have shown convincing arguments that prove His existence.

 

Believing in a story from 2000 years ago when we were relatively primitive beings and when there was no chance at all of recording his existence with actual evidence is foolish.

 

Why do you think we were primitive beings? Did you actually see our ancestors?

 

It is far more than a story and historical and archaeological evidence shows that the Bible is far from myth.

 

As for your daughter? What are you trying to say? that out of the billions of people on earth that you and your family are more special than all the people who live awful lives of suffering and heartache before they are butchered to death? That is totally ignorant and self absorbed.

 

No, it is not ignorant and selfish. It is a sign of gratitude that a miracle occurred in her life. If it happened to everyone, then it wouldn't be special. Special things do happen all around the world. Is it a sign that there is no God because there is evil and suffering in the world?

 

Being born into a good or bad family is literally a roll of the dice and anyone who is fortunate enough to live in good circumstances should count themselves extremely lucky.

 

Perhaps. Lucky? Or should we be grateful that we are?

 

The world is a complete sh*thole in many places on earth and I refuse to believe that a God worth worshiping would allow this place to continue to be the living hell it is for many while other people are born into a relative paradise.

 

If there was no evil and suffering in the world, would you then believe that there is a God? With a little searching, you can find well thought out responses to your questions.

Why is there evil and suffering in the world? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

How Could a Good God Allow Suffering and Evil? - Reformation21

 

But again, to be carried off on this tangent would be another thread.

 

Like I say....we don't know if he exists or not. The correct answer for every human on the planet is to say "I DON'T KNOW" because nobody does.

 

We can say that beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidences given, an Intelligent Being must exist. Is it more plausible to believe that the world started from nothing (ie abiogenesis to cell to man) or is it more reasonable to say that the intelligent design we see was started by a Greater intelligence?

[GorillaTheater]

A person's spiritual belief and the way they incorporate that into their life is personal. I don't understand the overweening desire among some people to thrust their own perspective upon others, whether that be belief or disbelief in whatever.

 

Seemed like a good time to quote this again.

[JamesM]

If you have nothing to add...

 

You got me. I started a post in response but realized that the time is getting short. I have alot to add, but I don't have the time to go through all of your comments and rebut them. I will be getting off and will have little time to dissect each with the respect it deserves.

 

Yet I commend you on the well thought out responses. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to respond with obviously good comments. Some have made me think. I always appreciate that.

 

While we will never agree and while our discussion will never resolve anything nor will it determine the existence of an Intelligent Being, I do think it is good stimulation of the brain. It gets those neurological responses twittering.

[happydate]

2000 years ago, God had already tried it.

 

The person God sent was Jesus Christ. While his main mission was to spread Christianity, his second mission is to show "PROOF" that God exists. His miracle work and his resurrection from the dead left some of us today still as non-believers.

 

To believe in something is to have faith. I have faith in my car that it will start up every single morning so that's why I own it. What if I don't have faith in my car that it won't start up every single morning, because I read from Car and Driver that it's a common problem and yet my mechanic said that it's nonsense? If I don't have faith in my phone, my car, my house and an airline to fly, I simply won't own that brand name or fly with that airline. You see the problem.

 

It does not have to involve God at all. When people have no faith on a product despite the fact that the product is working perfectly or functions as designed, no one will buy it because they don't have faith in the brand or company. This is the same with God.

 

Your opinion simply means you have no faith in God. So what do you think he's going to waste his time on you like any salesman or woman who is going to waste his or her time with you on a product @ BestBuy when you're already planning to buy it off Amazon!?!

[happydate]

This, of course, all assumes god to exist, faith or otherwise.

 

My opinion is that god, and the various other incarnations of deities throughout the history of mankind exist to answer questions we do not have answers to. See the vampire example above.

 

Occam's razor is a far greater indicator of potential reality then hearsay.

 

Your car example is failing. A vehicle doesn't start because of faith, it starts because the mechanical components operate correctly to cause a reaction which starts the vehicle. You have faith, thus, in the vehicle because it has operated in accordance with its manufactured parts and how they are supposed to operate.

 

The vehicle can operate in accordance to its design parameters, but an individual's faith is not tied to a mechanical operation but rather on his on her belief what the car can do or is expected to do despite what statistics show. It's the same as someone has more faith in Chrysler than Honda despite statistics saying otherwise. And there are people out there who believe in them. But that is an individual opinion, just like your opinion.

 

You are making your opinion as facts, but no proof if God truly does not exist. In the absence of that fact, we are all free to choose what we believe.

[M30USA]

FYI, Occam's Razor assumes that "all other factors are equal". People forget this. If all other factors are NOT equal, Occam's Razor doesn't apply.

[happydate]

Faith in an object you can touch and relate to, after the fact, is much different then faith in a faceless, incorporeal entity.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone here is insisting you "switch teams" so to speak. Everyone is passionate about their belief or nonbelief - it is what it is. But, I think there is a moral and humane duty to draw things into question - for either side - as the benefits of getting to the bottom of the question far outweigh the benefits of not getting to the bottom of the question.

 

This is interesting -- You said Faith in an object you can touch and relate to, after the fact, is much different then faith in a faceless, incorporeal entity.

 

 

So basically you base on faith in an object based on the 5 senses. Ok then wouldn't you agree then Earth is really flat? Everyone on Earth see earth as flat with their own eyes. They can smell it, taste it and feel its texture. So truly the Catholic church's doctrine when it said Earth is flat is true and the scientists and NASA are lying?

 

They claimed Earth is round like a ball. But really, how many people on Earth today had actually seen Earth with their own eyes from outer space? A selected few. How many people on Earth had seen and felt God today? Again a selected few. And yet using your own logic of fallacy and reality based on human senses, wouldn't the future allow many more Earthlings experience the beauty of Earth from outer space when outer space travel is commercialized? Sure I think so. Then wouldn't the future also allow many more Earthlings experience the bliss and joyful LOVE of our Lord and Jesus Christ as we all raise our conscious level as the society advances? I think it can and it has already begun with the New Age movement and people getting back to their principle roots, the source of all which is God.

 

While is our moral human duty to question things, we need to understand that the basic understanding of the question is your intent. If your intent is to dispute the validity of Earth based on your own five senses, because simply Earth is round is an impossibility for many humans to prove with their own eyes unless you have access to a space ship. Then these people have the right to dispute round Earth until such time that these people can truly see Earth with their own eyes. For the majority of people, they will not see it in this life time. And so for God, most people will not meet and experience his love in this life time too. Does this mean we cease to believe Earth is round just because we can't see it with our own physical eyes? Of course not. And so is God.

 

Blessings.

Edited October 5, 2013 by happydate

[crederer]

I'm not religious but was raised in a religious environment.

 

I have no problem with people being religious. What bothers me is when people use the bible to justify things. Anyone that starts a sentence with "the bible says...." loses all credibility in my book. What other document do we has humans use for virtually any practical purpose that is 1600 some odd years old (or older if old testament)? History? That's pretty much all I can think of.

 

The other thing is when people deny things that are so obviously true. Like the earth is only 6000 years old (or whatever the fanatics say), the earth was created in 7 days, or that evolution doesn't exist. Seriously? You're a complete fool if you don't believe in evolution. Sorry. Just my opinion.

 

And the rituals. I mean c'mon, you think if a baby dies and is not baptised it will be banished to hell? Do you think going to church every Sunday and listening to the same thing every week will make you closer to God?

 

I'm honestly astounded at how so many people still believe in this stuff this day and age.

 

Again, I have nothing against the people that follow religion closely, it's just my point of view on it. I think most religions promote positive morals, but that's about all they are.