Should I be worried about traditional marriage counseling?

[uncool]

My 18yr marriage is in trouble. I refuse to give up. I feel I have everything a married woman would want in a husband. She's just not interested in anything I have to offer (besides my fathering skills and my paycheck).

 

I have been told many many times by various people, friends, church leaders, popular book authors etc. that traditional marriage counseling is very risky... that it often ends up with a divorce because it wants to bring couples back to unhappy & dark times in the marriage.. .that somehow this is needed to make a happy marriage.

My wife already has a personal problem with un-forgiveness and holding grudges. If her mind were brought back to dark times... I don't think she could recover. She'd be infactuated on dwelling in the past.

I want help for her but I'm scared traditional marriage counseling will cause a divorce. I know marriage counselors need to make a living... but not at the expense of my marriage. Is there a different type of marriage counseling?

[tbf]

Traditional marriage counseling focuses on holding the marriage together, at any cost and at any expense to the spouses based a traditional marriage concept. This is far more concerning than any reversion to the past unless the past was so dark that the marriage shouldn't have continued in the first place.

[syz]

How about solution based counseling. Not all counselors are the same. Solution based counseling is more of what works and less of what doesn't.

 

John Gottman and 5 love languages material can be good information too. As well as taking an overall inventory of your life.

 

Are you doing the things that make you happy. Still developing yourself? Working out, taking care of yourself. You might as well work at getting some of yourself back that invariably gets lost to the marriage over time. This way you are in a better position whether you stay in your marriage or not and your self esteem is in a better place.

 

I know it seems counter intuitive but sometimes when we up and start putting the attention on ourselves others start to notice we aren't as available attentive and that we look better. It's not a ploy where you can quit if you suddenly get her attention. You have to mean it for yourself.

[dichotomy]

If there are past hurts (dark times) that have not been healed, where one or more persons still has hard feelings - then yes the therapist is going to want to eventually explore them.

 

We have had ok sessions focused on the present issues- and very very bad sessions exploring the past dark hurts. In some cases there may be no specific solution for the past, but the therapist needs to know how it affects the here and now interactions that can be adjusted and fixed.

 

There are all types of therapists. Religious, sexual, traditional, male, female,etc... You can call an do a phone interview or ask to meet with a few to ask them how they work. I tend to like very active or decisive therapist, kind of along Dr. Phil route where they can be very instructive and in control of the session - and calls it as she sees it.

[uncool]

unless the past was so dark that the marriage shouldn't have continued in the first place.

no this is not the case. Thanks for your post!

 

How about solution based counseling. Solution based counseling is more of what works and less of what doesn't. interesting, please tell me more

Are you doing the things that make you happy. yes I have hobbies that occupy my time out of the house Still developing yourself?

 

Working out, taking care of yourself.

not like I should. I'm about 25lbs overweight. I tried this before ... got back to my pre-marriage weight and she couldn't have cared less. Maybe I'll have to renew the old gym membership. good point thanks!

thanks!

 

If there are past hurts (dark times) that have not been healed, where one or more persons still has hard feelings - then yes the therapist is going to want to eventually explore them. yes there are

 

We have had ok sessions focused on the present issues- and very very bad sessions exploring the past dark hurts. this is what I'm worried about that she might decide to permanently live. She's a sweet woman but she's mentally unable to heal and move on sometimes

 

There are all types of therapists. Religious, sexual, traditional, male, female,etc... You can call an do a phone interview or ask to meet with a few to ask them how they work. I tend to like very active or decisive therapist, kind of along Dr. Phil route where they can be very instructive and in control of the session - and calls it as she sees it.

good point. thanks

[uncool]

OK so I just went to a highly recommended marriage counselor by myself yesterday to feel him out and tell him my story about our broken marriage.

 

He's the blunt kind that won't beat around the bush (which I like... but might offend my wife since she's a rather sensitive person). He seemed pretty good though I disliked how he pushed me to commit to 15 sessions ($1,500)

 

He then told me up front to ask my wife to attend therapy together.... and that if she wouldn't then I should end our marriage

 

So I went home told my wife I went to see the counselor. She politely said "great, I hope he can help you with whatever you have going on"

I then asked if she would go with me. She said NO. That she'd rather us go see her counselor lady. (she's seen a female counselor twice this past year for something)

So I am excited she said she'd do something.

 

So I just researched my wifes counselor and found she's an LCSW and not a marriage counselor. I'm a little concerned for two reasons:

*first of all that she specializes in womens therapy and that she isn't trained to keep marriages together or in marriage counseling.

*second of all that the LCSW is empathizing with my wife on whatever they have talked about in the past. I don't want to be the "bad guy" they've been secretly talking about. (if they've been talking about me at all)

[TaraMaiden]

My 18yr marriage is in trouble. I refuse to give up. I feel I have everything a married woman would want in a husband. She's just not interested in anything I have to offer

 

I'm sorry, this is delusional.

You may believe you 'have everything a married woman would want' but that's not the case.

If you DID have everything she wanted - she would still be invested in this marriage, and not have reduced it to a one-sided financial partnership.

 

First of all, you need to be realistic about the situation, because no matter how much YOU believe this is salvageable, or that you refuse to give up, if she's checked out, you can't want to repair it enough for her as well.

You can't fix this on your own, and if she's bailed, you can salvage nothing to make it worth her while.

Not on your own.

 

 

I have been told many many times by various people, friends, church leaders, popular book authors etc. that traditional marriage counseling is very risky... that it often ends up with a divorce because it wants to bring couples back to unhappy & dark times in the marriage.. .that somehow this is needed to make a happy marriage.

That depends.

if you attend 'Christian marriage Counselling' then yes, I am informed by more than one participant that there is 'pressure' to stay together, rather than examine any other altermatives.

And invariably, one partenr is far less interested or invested in the relationship than the other, so the marriage may well continue, but the person is still dissatisfied.

 

"A 'man' convinced against his will

Is of the same opinion, still'.

 

My wife already has a personal problem with un-forgiveness and holding grudges.

She may not see that as a problem.

She may just perceive it as a characteristic.

No matter how it is described, you can't remedy that.

Only she can.

And she has to agree it needs remedying....

 

If her mind were brought back to dark times... I don't think she could recover. She'd be infactuated on dwelling in the past.

 

I think you're incorrect, here.

I think she has plenty occupying her in the present.

The Past would just confirm how she's feeling now, and justify it in her mind.

It would just be a confirmation of how she's always felt.

 

I want help for her but I'm scared traditional marriage counseling will cause a divorce.

 

YOU.

CAN'T.

HELP.

HER.

 

You cannot fix what ails her, if she will not be helped.

#You cannot magically wish for something and have it happen the way you want.

 

There is a polar-opposite dynamic to yours.

 

Counselling will no more cause a divorce than the way she feels now.

 

If she's determined to step away from this, Counselling will not budge her one way or the other. If her mind's made up, Counselling will either make her more determined, or confirm her already-existent feelings

[uncool]

I'm sorry, this is delusional.

You may believe you 'have everything a married woman would want' but that's not the case.

If you DID have everything she wanted - she would still be invested in this marriage, and not have reduced it to a one-sided financial partnership. Are you sure?

I'm going off of what other women have told me. If I don't provide everything she want's in a marriage then why the hell won't she tell me what she wants?or tell me how I'm not cutting it? I've tried to have this conversation with her and the answer I get is "I don't know"

 

First of all, you need to be realistic about the situation, because no matter how much YOU believe this is salvageable, or that you refuse to give up, if she's checked out, you can't want to repair it enough for her as well.

You can't fix this on your own, and if she's bailed, you can salvage nothing to make it worth her while.

Not on your own.

Yes she's checked out as for as being in love with me. But she still does little nice wife things like make me dinner and doing my laundry that tell me she's still in it. Are you saying to forgo counseling and file for divorce?

 

That depends.

if you attend 'Christian marriage Counselling' then yes, I am informed by more than one participant that there is 'pressure' to stay together, rather than examine any other altermatives.

And invariably, one partenr is far less interested or invested in the relationship than the other, so the marriage may well continue, but the person is still dissatisfied.

 

"A 'man' convinced against his will

Is of the same opinion, still'. huh? do you mean Christ?

 

 

She may not see that as a problem.

She may just perceive it as a characteristic.

No matter how it is described, you can't remedy that.

Only she can.

And she has to agree it needs remedying....

Agreed

 

 

 

I think you're incorrect, here.

I think she has plenty occupying her in the present.

The Past would just confirm how she's feeling now, and justify it in her mind.

It would just be a confirmation of how she's always felt.

 

 

 

YOU.

CAN'T.

HELP.

HER.

 

 

You cannot fix what ails her, if she will not be helped.

she's been seeing a councelor

#You cannot magically wish for something and have it happen the way you want. you mean like a marriage?

 

There is a polar-opposite dynamic to yours.

 

Counselling will no more cause a divorce than the way she feels now.

then why do they have counseling?

 

If she's determined to step away from this, Counselling will not budge her one way or the other. If her mind's made up, Counselling will either make her more determined, or confirm her already-existent feelings

that sucks.. .only one way to find out I guess. To bad it costs $1,500.00 to find that out for sure

thanks for your insightful post. Hopefully she isn't so stubborn that she's already made her mind up.

[HannahRose]

Have you ever tried counseling at your church?

[uncool]

Have you ever tried counseling at your church?

yes our church leader met with us about 5 years ago and to try to get her to communicate with me to tell me what bugged her. Our church leader is a really nice guy that my wife likes and respects... but he's no marriage counselor. He gives sunday lessons, he helps the choir, he helps people pay their rent, he help's with the youth ministry and he's a proffessional rocket scientist in his real job. He's one that warned me about going to a marriage counselor because he's seen it do more damage than good.

If I'm really that crappy of a husband then why did she marry me? I'm still that romantic guy she fell in love with. I don't think I've changed. I know she has though.

[TaraMaiden]

You need to learn how to quote....This makes replying hard!!

 

Are you sure?

I'm going off of what other women have told me. If I don't provide everything she want's in a marriage then why the hell won't she tell me what she wants?or tell me how I'm not cutting it? I've tried to have this conversation with her and the answer I get is "I don't know"

 

If she tells you she DOES know, she risks cutting off her financial support and easy life.

 

She DOES know.

She's either too much of a coward to let you know her real feelings, or she doesn't want to tip the balance.

 

But trust me, deep down - she knows.

 

Yes she's checked out as for as being in love with me. But she still does little nice wife things like make me dinner and doing my laundry that tell me she's still in it

 

Yeah. She's a house-mate, a joint tenant, a good friend sharing home-sapce.

Been there, done that.

Classic LYBNILWY. (Loves You But Not IN Love With You.)

 

Are you saying to forgo counseling and file for divorce?

I'm not suggesting anything, but what I'm saying is that you cannot fix this on your own.

You have to be utterly, totally convinced - by her own insistence and admission - that she is as keen to go to counselling as you are, for the same purpose as you want to do it.

 

If you guys are not on the same page about that....

 

 

 

"A 'man' convinced against his will

Is of the same opinion, still'.

 

huh? do you mean Christ?

No, I mean that if a person is forced to go through with something they are actually reluctant to continue with, then they will always be unhappy, no matter what 'effort' they put into making things better.

 

If 2 people attend 'Christian' MC, and they are encouraged to keep trying, and to work on the marriage, if one person wants out, they will never re-commit to that marriage as much as the Marriage Counsellor wants, or recommends they do... and will remain unhappy. And resentful, too.

 

she's been seeing a councelor

On her own?

To what end?

What results have you seen?

How have things developed?

has she revealed anything about the discussions?

Anything fruitful and/or positive?

How do YOU feel about her counselling sessions?

 

you mean like a marriage?

Yes, like a marriage.

You can't be married if you have no partner; even if she's still around, you can't in any way realistically say this is a proper, bona-fide genuine marriage.

Can you?

 

then why do they have counseling?

 

Counselling is not a tool designed to always keep people together, nor should it be viewed as such. Christian MC, yes.

But as a standard, Counselling enables people to talk, vent, clear the air, express themselves openly and without fear of the discussion escalating into a huge row. It levels the playing field and makes each person 'equal' in the sense that Counselling validates thir right to say what's on their mind, anbd to express what's in their heart.

Counselling enables constructive discussion, even if the construct actually means separation/divorce.

A Counsellor will steer the discussion, guide the participants and make possible suggestions for viewing things differently, to both parties.

but with a view to them feeling unafraid or inhibited by feeling as if their backs are against a wall.

And I bet, in a way, that's how your wife feels....

 

 

that sucks.. .only one way to find out I guess. To bad it costs $1,500.00 to find that out for sure

Before you spend that kind of money, it's best to ascertain precisely whether she really wants this marriage to work, 100% for the rest of her natural life, with you.

 

Or not.

 

And I hate to tell you this:

 

Any hesitation, or wavering on her part, and that's a 'no'.....

[HannahRose]

yes our church leader met with us about 5 years ago and to try to get her to communicate with me to tell me what bugged her. Our church leader is a really nice guy that my wife likes and respects... but he's no marriage counselor. He gives sunday lessons, he helps the choir, he helps people pay their rent, he help's with the youth ministry and he's a proffessional rocket scientist in his real job. He's one that warned me about going to a marriage counselor because he's seen it do more damage than good.

If I'm really that crappy of a husband then why did she marry me? I'm still that romantic guy she fell in love with. I don't think I've changed. I know she has though.

 

What does he suggest that you do since nothing seems to be working?

 

Have you flat out asked her what her problem is? Maybe you already did and I missed that.

[TaraMaiden]

If I'm really that crappy of a husband then why did she marry me? I'm still that romantic guy she fell in love with. I don't think I've changed. I know she has though.

 

Well, if she's changed (and people do - even you, trust me) then her tastes have changed, her PoV's have changed, her goals, likes, dislikes, desires and objectives have changed.

 

people do change, nothing is EVER a constant.

You may still be that romantic guy she fell in love with, but maybe that doesn't float her boat any more.

And if you are so insistent that you haven't changed - well then... maybe THAT'S the problem.....

[uncool]

You need to learn how to quote....This makes replying hard!!

is this better (either there's lots of copy/pasting or I don't know how)

 

If she tells you she DOES know, she risks cutting off her financial support and easy life.

 

She DOES know.

She's either too much of a coward to let you know her real feelings, or she doesn't want to tip the balance. But trust me, deep down - she knows.

hmmm interesting

 

Yeah. She's a house-mate, a joint tenant, a good friend sharing home-sapce.

Been there, done that.

Classic LYBNILWY. (Loves You But Not IN Love With You.)

exactly in fact that's one of the only things she's been direct about. She told me this right to my face!

 

I'm not suggesting anything, but what I'm saying is that you cannot fix this on your own.

You have to be utterly, totally convinced - by her own insistence and admission - that she is as keen to go to counselling as you are, for the same purpose as you want to do it.

no that won't happen because she's fighting it tooth & nail

 

On her own? yes

To what end? i dont know

What results have you seen? 1st time was really really bad after she got home... she slept on the couch and her respect level went way down. 2nd time was like a breath of fresh air and she agreed to go out on a date with me for the first time in years! we even had sex about a week or so after that!... then she faded back in to her normal old self after a couple weeks This has been 3 months ago now and she hasn't gone back since

How have things developed? she's slightly more pleasant to be around and will actually sit by me at church! but at home there's still really bad juju in bed and I have to stay on my side of the bed and not touch her in any way, shape or form or she turns to a statue

has she revealed anything about the discussions? nope.. .she won't talk about it. She's a very private person

Anything fruitful and/or positive? yeah sort of... she actually accepted my invitation for a mini-date to get an ice cream. And has twice accepted to go on an evening walk with me and even once let me hold her hand last month! It's fading away now

How do YOU feel about her counselling sessions?

I feel like I'm in the dark. I wish I knew what the hell was going on or what they talked about so that I could help her

 

 

You can't be married if you have no partner; even if she's still around, you can't in any way realistically say this is a proper, bona-fide genuine marriage. Can you?

probably not. I see couples at church every sunday who look like they love each other... holding hands, arm around thier wives, heads leaning on husbands shoulders... this isn't what we have... but it's what I want.

 

Before you spend that kind of money, it's best to ascertain precisely whether she really wants this marriage to work, 100% for the rest of her natural life, with you.

 

Or not.

 

And I hate to tell you this:

 

Any hesitation, or wavering on her part, and that's a 'no'.....

that scares the hell out of me... but I'm so numb now that I'm not getting my hopes up. The fact that we have 4 teen/pre-teen kids that would be affected is really bad. That fact that my damn wife is bringing this on and loosing everything including her family really pisses me off. That's so selfish of her.

 

What does he suggest that you do since nothing seems to be working? he's just as clueless as I am. He only suggests the recommended proffessional MC.

 

Have you flat out asked her what her problem is? Maybe you already did and I missed that. not in those words but yes and she says she doesn't know

 

Well, if she's changed (and people do - even you, trust me) then her tastes have changed, her PoV's have changed, her goals, likes, dislikes, desires and objectives have changed.

 

people do change, nothing is EVER a constant.

You may still be that romantic guy she fell in love with, but maybe that doesn't float her boat any more.

And if you are so insistent that you haven't changed - well then... maybe THAT'S the problem.....

the problem is that I'm totally willing to change. I just don't have a clue how or what she wants me to change. A little communication from her would be great! She really needs a shrink! She's not all there. This isn't normal. She will not let me be that knight in shining armor. I'm standing right in front of her waiting to ride in to the sunset (vomit)... but she doesn't see me. Edited August 11, 2013 by uncool

[TaraMaiden]

Let me give you a picture of what's happening her:

What's happening here, is that you're frantically trying to keep the power up by running, with one foot nailed to the floor.

 

She?

She's standing there, watching you, arms crossed, wondering when you're finally going to realise that you are getting nowhere.

 

Pull the nail, and get the hell out of there.

 

Kids?

Kids survive.

mine did, admirably.

I would say an awful lot of members here have children who have survived a divorce too.

And maybe even kids of a divorced couple..

I'll tell you what phukks 'em up:

 

A pair of dysfunctional parents, that's what.

Which is precisely the kind of relationship you are teaching them it's vital to stay in....

 

Your one and only course of action, now, is to present her with papers and get her to sign.

 

Defeatist?

 

I don't think so.

 

You appear to have explored other avenues and met with dead ends.

Your choices are two.

 

Stay, put up and shut up -

 

or -

 

Leave.

 

To help you, just ask yourself if you're going to be satisfied with being in precisely this exact same situation 5 years from now.

 

Exactly.

 

 

File.

[carhill]

After reading the OP's first thread on LS, I'll opine worrying about traditional MC would be the last of my concerns. I'd be more concerned about forming an effective exit strategy. Your W checked out of the M many years ago, probably predating your joining LS in 2006. MC of any sort is likely to be ineffective. However, a skilled mediator could bring this M to a relatively amicable close. I'd look into that. Good luck.

[TigerCub]

Uncool,

 

Do you think that your wife might have checked out when your daughter was molested by your brother?

 

Is that why you are concerned about therapy that will advocate going back to past hurts and bad times in the marriage?

 

The thing is, if she's holding on to that hurt and it is unresolved for her, then nothing will ever change until it is dealt with ( for her).

 

You can try to be the best provider now and as great a husband as you want, but if she resents you for whatever reason, then it won't make a difference to her, until she heals from those past issues.

[xxoo]

If the reason you fear marriage counseling is that it will shine a light on the truth, then you are living in denial. You are choosing to stay in denial, miserably, rather than facing the truth and moving forward--possibly to a better place, married or not.

 

It's your choice, but own it. You are living with your head in the sand.

 

Also, to say that marriage counseling causes divorce is bad logic. People seek marriage counseling as a last resort. Often enough, the divorce was inevitable, and the counseling just made the divorce easier to navigate. If a couple in a strong marriage seek marriage counseling for a specific issue, it does not typically result in divorce.

Edited August 11, 2013 by xxoo

[uncool]

thanks for your replies.

 

I know you all want me to divorce her but we haven't even been to a marriage counselor yet! I am a patient man and think it pays off sometimes.

 

My wife has done a small turn around after my 2011 post you guys dug up. I grew some balls and moved out. She begged me to come back. So I moved back in and there was great intimacy and sex for about a month... then slowly moved back to the freezer again. She's so much nicer now after I drew a line in the sand. Her respect level for me increased... there's just a lack of intimacy. She can't stand being touched in any way, shape or form. Now we find out she has health issues w/thyroid and diagnosed w/high anxiety. I'm in the midst of convincing her to get help or meds with her high anxiety right now.

 

I seemed to overcome one hurdle now I'm moving on with the next.

 

I appreciate replies that don't tell me to just throw in the towel and divorce her. I've invested 19yrs in my marriage and am not to throw it all away just yet.

[carhill]

Another way to look at it is that it (your 19 year marriage) was a valued and important part of your life during those 19 years. Today is today.

 

What I'm hearing from you is that you're choosing to sacrifice yourself at the altar of another. That's certainly a valid choice. I hope the consequences of it do not portend another 19 years of what has passed during the last decade or so. Life is short. For each of us, there is usually a defining moment when that light bulb comes on, and it can be at any time, any age. It illuminates aspects of living which we hadn't considered or prioritized prior. For myself, aspects of health and marriage caused the bulb to blink on.

 

Coming from a husband, now former, IMO if your wife respected you, she'd hug the stuffing out of you, at minimum, and there would be no ambiguity about her affections or love for you. This presumes she expressed herself in this way at some time in the past, and I presume she did.

 

I hope you don't get blind-sided. It happens. Good luck.

[uncool]

If the reason you fear marriage counseling is that it will shine a light on the truth, then you are living in denial.

LOL... no, I'm not scared of MC cause it will shine any truth. I fear MC could turn my wackjob of a wife in to an even bigger wackjob by forcing her brain to relive the dark stuff.

I belive my wife is mantally ill. She isn't normal and she doesn't think rationally. She despises her husband just because he's related to someone that offended her isn't exactly healthy thinking. Instead of punishing this thinking with divorce, I want to make sure I step up to the plate as a husband & father and get her some help.

[uncool]

Uncool,

 

Do you think that your wife might have checked out when your daughter was molested by your brother? yes, she did a little checking out at that time... but nothing like she did 13years later (in 2010)

 

Is that why you are concerned about therapy that will advocate going back to past hurts and bad times in the marriage? yes

 

The thing is, if she's holding on to that hurt and it is unresolved for her, then nothing will ever change until it is dealt with right, but how to do that? The only way she has dealt with it so far is to have animosity towards me. I think she's been seeing a therapist about this but I'm not sure

 

thanks for your input! I appreciate it!

[TigerCub]

I said: The thing is, if she's holding on to that hurt and it is unresolved for her, then nothing will ever change until it is dealt with -

 

You said : right, but how to do that? The only way she has dealt with it so far is to have animosity towards me. I think she's been seeing a therapist about this but I'm not sure

 

 

You would do that by seeing a therapist together that will allow her to hash out these things.At least that's what I would think.

 

If there is such a build up of animosity and resentment, it would need to get dealt with.

 

So you don't know if she seeing a therapist - maybe you should ask her.

[uncool]

 

So you don't know if she seeing a therapist - maybe you should ask her.

yes, she has seen her therapist twice this year. (6 months ago and 3 months ago) She is a not a marriage counselor, she's a sexual trauma & anxiety therapist for women

Edited August 12, 2013 by uncool

[xxoo]

LOL... no, I'm not scared of MC cause it will shine any truth. I fear MC could turn my wackjob of a wife in to an even bigger wackjob by forcing her brain to relive the dark stuff.

I belive my wife is mantally ill. She isn't normal and she doesn't think rationally. She despises her husband just because he's related to someone that offended her isn't exactly healthy thinking. Instead of punishing this thinking with divorce, I want to make sure I step up to the plate as a husband & father and get her some help.

 

If you believe your wife is mentally ill, then she needs professional mental health counseling, not a marriage counselor. Why has it taken so many years to make that happen?