Real relationship?

[Realist3]

For the sake of discussion I will offer this.

 

My MW and I have at least 50 mutual friends that all know we are friends. Does that make our relationship real? My wife, sister-in-law, and a couple of my friends know about the affair, so you could say it is 'open' to them. Does that make the affair relationship any more real than it already is? No. It is just as real today as it was before anybody knew about it.

[Furious]

A relationship is not defined by its openness. Whether anyone else knows about it is immaterial.

 

 

Odd, but most people in affairs go to great lengths to keep others, especially their spouse and family, from knowing about it. Once again you contradict yourself by saying it's immaterial for others to know you're in an affair but you guard it's secrecy.

[jlola]

Friend who had affair with MW also said he liked the chase which unconsciously gave her more value. He said the affair had push/pull dynamics. everytime she pushed and was getting closer to leaving her husband, he would do something to turn her back, or ask for more time to get his act together. Then when she pulled, it would make him anxious and he would chase again and use over the top romantic gestures to get her back.

 

He says the times he wanted her were when she was not real. When she waked away. But when she was there and willing to leave husband be at his door and move in. In other words, become a real relationship, he got cold feet.

[Furious]

For the sake of discussion I will offer this.

 

My MW and I have at least 50 mutual friends that all know we are friends. Does that make our relationship real? My wife, sister-in-law, and a couple of my friends know about the affair, so you could say it is 'open' to them. Does that make the affair relationship any more real than it already is? No. It is just as real today as it was before anybody knew about it.

 

 

What you're describing is an open marriage. You're not in an affair.

 

You are living the dream, no wonder you don't want the OW to divorce her husband.

[dichotomy]

For the sake of discussion I will offer this.

 

My MW and I have at least 50 mutual friends that all know we are friends. Does that make our relationship real? My wife, sister-in-law, and a couple of my friends know about the affair, so you could say it is 'open' to them. Does that make the affair relationship any more real than it already is? No. It is just as real today as it was before anybody knew about it.

 

If everyone knows about it - including MW's husband, then you have an open marriage or perhaps some form of polyandry. Both of those are type of relationships with understanding, honesty, but still limited oblgations in for one or ther other.

 

Affair relationships (most often) lack full components of responsibilities, obligations, commitments, time effort and work. They are vacation/amusement park trips - or part time ones. You don’t live there - you visit and don't have to deal with the mess after the park closes.

[Realist3]

Odd, but most people in affairs go to great lengths to keep others, especially their spouse and family, from knowing about it. Once again you contradict yourself by saying it's immaterial for others to know you're in an affair but you guard it's secrecy.

 

It is not contradictory at all!

 

I'm saying the relationship is real regardless of who knows about it, or whether it is 'open'. Just because we choose to keep the relationship a secret doesn't not in any way change the reality of the relationship.

 

 

What I tried to illustrate with me previous example was how silly the notion is that it is not a real relationship as posited by you and others.

 

According to you because everyone and their dog knows about the friendship between me and MW, that's real. But because only a handful of people know about the affair relationship, that relationship is not real. That really makes no sense. Ya'll are the ones living in Disneyland.

[Realist3]

If everyone knows about it - including MW's husband, then you have an open marriage or perhaps some form of polyandry. Both of those are type of relationships with understanding, honesty, but still limited oblgations in for one or ther other.

 

Affair relationships (most often) lack full components of responsibilities, obligations, commitments, time effort and work. They are vacation/amusement park trips - or part time ones. You don’t live there - you visit and don't have to deal with the mess after the park closes.

 

Now you are shifting the topic to right and wrong, and that is not what I'm discussing.

 

 

Of course the affair relationship does not exist as a full blown marital relationship and all that goes along with it; but that doesn't change the fact that it is a real relationship within its own parameters.

[ladydesigner]

What you're describing is an open marriage. You're not in an affair.

 

You are living the dream, no wonder you don't want the OW to divorce her husband.

 

Yes it does sound like an open M if the wife knows. I agree it would not be considered an A now.

[96nole]

Definition of RELATIONSHIP

 

1

: the state of being related or interrelated <studied the relationship between the variables>

 

2

: the relation connecting or binding participants in a relationship: as

a : kinship

b : a specific instance or type of kinship

 

3

a : a state of affairs existing between those having relations or dealings <had a good relationship with his family>

b : a romantic or passionate attachment

 

 

According to Merriam-webster.com, an affair could meet the definition of a relationship.

 

However, in the vast majority of affairs, the relationship is not very healthy. They are based on deception, stolen moments, false pretenses, etc.

 

Furious, your husband did have a relationship with another woman. And I use the term "woman" as loose as she was. But, as you know, it was very unhealthy. It didn't last after dday. She was not his type of woman. It was a relationship that was doomed to fail and never could become anything to build a real future. And let's not forget the swath of destruction left in it's wake.

 

Realist3 is also having a relationship with his OW. He may argue, but it is also an unhealthy relationship. If it was a healthy relationship, he would not have been sweating bullets a few months ago when the OW threatened to expose the affair. As he and his OW sneak out the back door of the school, meet at an out of town restaurant, or hotel, whether he wants to admit to it or not, at some level he is thinking "God I hope nobody sees us." Otherwise why have all the secrecy. That doesn't sound healthy to me. But it fits his needs.

 

But the original question was whether an affair is, or could be, a real relationship. Not a debate on whether it's a healthy relationship. So I say yes, it's a relationship. But they are about as healthy as the bubonic plague was in the 14th century. Some survived, but most died a horrible death.

[dichotomy]

Yes it does sound like an open M if the wife knows. I agree it would not be considered an A now.

 

and if OW husband knows.

[MissBee]

Naively on my D-day, I assumed that in order for someone to have an affair and to risk it all if found out that the affair relationship must have been "real".

 

Ironically, as I handed my husband his suitcase and wished him well, I was shocked he wasn't thrilled to leave and take his affair relationship out from the shadow and into the light.

 

I told him it had been unnecessary to have lied to me. The lies hurt me more than the actual affair. He knew me, knew that I had never been one to impose myself in anyone's path of happiness. It was so confusing and I have struggled with the concept of an affair being a real relationship and that once discovered the next logical step would be that the affair partners would be relieved and enthusiastically embrace being together and out in the open.

 

Is an affair a real relationship? I don't think so anymore. I'm interested in other's opinion as to whether they agree or disagree.

 

It can be, depending on the person and the contents of the situation.

 

In my dad's case, I don't think any of his affairs were real relationships where he genuinely loved these people or maintained one person for a very long time. I don't think he had much of a real emotional investment in them, although some of his actions probably play-acted like it was more than what it was.

 

In my case, it was a real relationship, but also there were lots of factors that were different: namely he wasn't married and they did not live together. Because of that he could basically have two relationships essentially and for me it wasn't always obvious I was an "other", many times he just felt like a regular LDR bf. But...it wasn't regular though, there definitely were times when it was obvious it was an A. Nevertheless, there were real feelings, real emotional investment and other things I did in normal relationships.

[dichotomy]

According to websters dictonary - Disneyworld meets the definition of a actual "place".

 

But we know what were all talking about right ?

 

This was my point with OP's realizations of why her husband was shocked she said "fine - go live there, here is your bag"

 

I do not wish to point at others and I have gotten off track. Apologies.

Edited August 13, 2013 by dichotomy

[MissBee]

I think many affairs are not a "real" relationships in that there is no true investment or true experience of a partnership but mostly ego boosting, talk fantasies and sex, and maybe more FWB. However, I think more accurately, it's not about real but if an affair is a good relationship. As "real relationships" that aren't affairs can be so very messed up too, can include emotionally unavailable people, future faking, all kinds of drama etc. These non-affair relationships are real, just really messed up. I think affairs are just one type of dubious relationship, and how I came to the OW/OM section was from a single "relationship" which had similar elements to many affair relationships, minus, he didn't actually have another woman. That's when I realized that there is a category "Dubious Relationships" and affairs are in that grab bag of often unhealthy relationships. So affairs are a kind of relationship...just a messed up kind. The definition of a relationship doesn't include in the definition that it is healthy or good.

Edited August 13, 2013 by MissBee

[thecharade]

My R with my AP was real, but it certainly was untested. I think both sides of the discussion are a little right and a little wrong.

 

1. My R with my H (prior to marrying) was also untested as we had not paid any bills, bought any property, or raised any kids yet. Some people married as teens. Talk about untested in the real world! But everyone has to start somewhere, right? An affair is no different than any other R, untested in the beginning.

 

2. Except now there is a lot to lose, so the stakes are much higher. Safety seems to win out. Understandable.

 

3. But if society didn't frown on divorce, approved of APs marrying, supported happiness in whatever form, then people would bring As out into the light because there would be no shame. But society likes marriage. One. Forever. It's very neat and tidy and certainly makes sense in terms of generational support.

 

4. You cannot, no matter what, deny the fact that divorce breaks things apart and takes things away. People, support, finances, security, traditions, everything. And so whether or not the R was real or could have been great no longer matters to most people. Number 4 kicks our butts every time.

 

How it is is how it is.

[ladydesigner]

My R with my AP was real, but it certainly was untested. I think both sides of the discussion are a little right and a little wrong.

 

1. My R with my H (prior to marrying) was also untested as we had not paid any bills, bought any property, or raised any kids yet. Some people married as teens. Talk about untested in the real world! But everyone has to start somewhere, right? An affair is no different than any other R, untested in the beginning.

 

2. Except now there is a lot to lose, so the stakes are much higher. Safety seems to win out. Understandable.

 

3. But if society didn't frown on divorce, approved of APs marrying, supported happiness in whatever form, then people would bring As out into the light because there would be no shame. But society likes marriage. One. Forever. It's very neat and tidy and certainly makes sense in terms of generational support.

 

4. You cannot, no matter what, deny the fact that divorce breaks things apart and takes things away. People, support, finances, security, traditions, everything. And so whether or not the R was real or could have been great no longer matters to most people. Number 4 kicks our butts every time.

 

How it is is how it is.

 

Well #3 is a bit iffy for me and it is just probably because we all have different viewpoints. See I do not see a society that frowns on divorce, if anything it seems people are getting divorced too easily. AP's get frowned on because it is a relationship that starts within another one. The betrayal is where the problem lies. If people were upfront from the start and there was no monogamy to begin with then there would be no need for a sole relationship, more like multiple relationships.

[Realist3]

What you're describing is an open marriage. You're not in an affair.

 

You are living the dream, no wonder you don't want the OW to divorce her husband.

 

 

Just because it is open on my side doesn't make it not an affair. It is not open on hers. But again, the relationship is very very real and has been for years now.

[Furious]

I don't dispute that an affair is a relationship. What I see from the many responses is that as "real" as it may be for the participants the realness has limited parameters, some are self imposed and very often the parameters when the affair is discovered it losses it's "realness" shine.

 

Why are so many people living fragmented lives that are part and parcel filled with deception and call it "real".

 

What is real food, or real drinking water. Pop and chips for some people is a real meal.

 

I don't know....I think "real" means something far greater than I can explain.

[Realist3]

Definition of RELATIONSHIP

 

1

: the state of being related or interrelated <studied the relationship between the variables>

 

2

: the relation connecting or binding participants in a relationship: as

a : kinship

b : a specific instance or type of kinship

 

3

a : a state of affairs existing between those having relations or dealings <had a good relationship with his family>

b : a romantic or passionate attachment

 

 

According to Merriam-webster.com, an affair could meet the definition of a relationship.

 

However, in the vast majority of affairs, the relationship is not very healthy. They are based on deception, stolen moments, false pretenses, etc.

 

Furious, your husband did have a relationship with another woman. And I use the term "woman" as loose as she was. But, as you know, it was very unhealthy. It didn't last after dday. She was not his type of woman. It was a relationship that was doomed to fail and never could become anything to build a real future. And let's not forget the swath of destruction left in it's wake.

 

Realist3 is also having a relationship with his OW. He may argue, but it is also an unhealthy relationship. If it was a healthy relationship, he would not have been sweating bullets a few months ago when the OW threatened to expose the affair. As he and his OW sneak out the back door of the school, meet at an out of town restaurant, or hotel, whether he wants to admit to it or not, at some level he is thinking "God I hope nobody sees us." Otherwise why have all the secrecy. That doesn't sound healthy to me. But it fits his needs.

 

But the original question was whether an affair is, or could be, a real relationship. Not a debate on whether it's a healthy relationship. So I say yes, it's a relationship. But they are about as healthy as the bubonic plague was in the 14th century. Some survived, but most died a horrible death.

 

The reason I was sweating bullets is because she was acting irrationally because she thought she was losing me. And while I freely admitted that I didn't handle that 'break' I was seeking correctly, her actions were in a sense calling my bluff. She knew I would choose her if she decided to blow everything up by disclosure to everyone. At the same time we both knew that would occur after that was not something either of us was prepared for at that moment.

 

Whether one decides to classify that situation as healthy or unhealthy is up to the individual. But as you stated the premise of the thread is not about those issues, it is about whether affairs are or can be real relationships.

[Realist3]

I don't dispute that an affair is a relationship. What I see from the many responses is that as "real" as it may be for the participants the realness has limited parameters, some are self imposed and very often the parameters when the affair is discovered it losses it's "realness" shine.

 

Why are so many people living fragmented lives that are part and parcel filled with deception and call it "real".

 

What is real food, or real drinking water. Pop and chips for some people is a real meal.

 

I don't know....I think "real" means something far greater than I can explain.

 

I don't know if the qualifier 'real' has much real meaning in the definition.

 

What does 'real' mean? While I think this thread has been an interesting exercise, and certainly made me ponder a few things, I think every relationship exists in its own realness.

[ladydesigner]

I don't know if the qualifier 'real' has much real meaning in the definition.

 

What does 'real' mean? While I think this thread has been an interesting exercise, and certainly made me ponder a few things, I think every relationship exists in its own realness.

 

So then this would be the 'Affair Bubble' that most refer to. I guess there could be a 'Marriage Bubble' too

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I get what the OP is driving at...

 

If the affair was all that and such great love and destiny (blah blah) then why, given shown the door do so many WS say no thanks?

 

I think Realist you have a situation in that you have some kind of an arrangement with your wife where she accepts that you love and prefer the OW and knows or understands that you would leave the marriage and your wife for the OW and are staying for the children?... I don't know why your wife accepts that but that's her business, maybe she is having an affair of her own. Who knows. All I know is that I would never put up with that crap, and it's a conversation for another thread.

 

But you do tend to defend affairs, as do many OW/OM on these boards as an acceptable relationship approach. But for most, and I would also say for your wife(based on what you have said before), that its not, why get or stay married?

 

I believe that the REAL part of a relationship suggests it is one that is tested by the light of day, real events, trials and tribulations and legitimate.

 

So if given the chance, why would the WS chose not to legitimize the relationship? Is that because in the absence of secrecy, in the absence of the danger that the "charge" goes out? Probably, then the super duper special love becomes just like the one that got blown up by the affair.

[Realist3]

I don't know if I would say I defend them, but I certainly understand them. And yes I acknowledge my situation is certainly different that what comes around here in most instances. I would never advise anyone to get involved in an affair unless they were truly aware of all that comes with it. Even then I would suggest against doing so. I will be the first to admit that it is not all rainbows and unicorns. Sometimes I liken it to a form of self-torture.

[ladydesigner]

So if given the chance, why would the WS chose not to legitimize the relationship? Is that because in the absence of secrecy, in the absence of the danger that the "charge" goes out? Probably, then the super duper special love becomes just like the one that got blown up by the affair.

 

I wonder this too! I had 4 DDays and every time MOW would reach out, my WH reciprocated. Every time he did, I found out and showed him the door. Wash.Rinse.Repeat.

 

I basically told him on DDay4 that he made his choice. It was obvious he wanted to be with MOW. I just wanted off the crazy train. When you have a WS trying to convince you nothing is going on when there is something has to be done. I was ready to get a D. I no longer cared if he chose her over me, it didn't matter anymore. WH didn't want that, said he never did in the first place and that he was never leaving me for her. That was a surprise on me because I have been basically planning the end of my M since DDay. WH looked surprised and shocked that I had an appointment with a lawyer to go forward with D.

[thecharade]

Women want to believe he is choosing a woman.

He's not. He's choosing a lifestyle.

He does not want to be divorced. Period. (I am generalizing, but multiple ddays?)

[MissBee]

In terms of their limited nature, I do think affairs are like test-tube relationships, carried out under non-standard circumstances and with atypical limitations, variables and parameters. So while they bear some semblance to normal, there are lots of things about them which aren't normal and one hasn't much clue how it would translate outside of that "test" environment, until one takes it outside of it and gives it all the standard conditions open Rs have.

 

Hence, when some try to compare the affair to the marriage, esp the OW/OM, and assume how they will naturally be a better fit and last longer and so on, I'm like you have no clue. Maybe, maybe not...but so long as what you're comparing is an affair with its atypical circumstances to an open M....there is no comparison. Until you too get a chance to be open with them and take away those limits, then and only then do you have a real chance to really take the relationship to it's highest potential and see if it floats or sinks.

Edited August 13, 2013 by MissBee