Real relationship?

[Realist3]

Women want to believe he is choosing a woman.

He's not. He's choosing a lifestyle.

He does not want to be divorced. Period. (I am generalizing, but multiple ddays?)

 

 

I agree. And it addressed further in the next post.

[96nole]

I don't dispute that an affair is a relationship. What I see from the many responses is that as "real" as it may be for the participants the realness has limited parameters, some are self imposed and very often the parameters when the affair is discovered it losses it's "realness" shine.

 

Why are so many people living fragmented lives that are part and parcel filled with deception and call it "real".

 

What is real food, or real drinking water. Pop and chips for some people is a real meal.

 

I don't know....I think "real" means something far greater than I can explain.

I think to you a "real" relationship is one that is out in the open. It's mutual friends. It's family's getting together on holidays and vacations. It's your children and their cousins playing. It's cars, houses, bills, and everything else that goes with building a life with someone. And it is something that is far greater.

 

An affair is a relationship, but not a life together. It's only bits and pieces.

 

Pop and chips can be a real meal. But if that is the only thing you eat, you'll eventually die from malnutrition.

[Realist3]

In terms of their limited nature, I do think affairs are like test-tube relationships, carried out under non-standard circumstances and with atypical limitations, variables and parameters. So while they bear some semblance to normal, there are lots of things about them which aren't normal and one hasn't much clue how it would translate outside of that "test" environment, until one takes it outside of it and gives it all the standard conditions open Rs have.

 

Hence, when some try to compare the affair to the marriage, esp the OW/OM, and assume how they will naturally be a better fit and last longer and so on, I'm like you have no clue. Maybe, maybe not...but so long as what you're comparing is an affair with its atypical circumstances to an open M....there is no comparison. Until you too get a chance to be open with them and take away those limits, then and only then do you have a real chance to really take the relationship to it's highest potential and see if it floats or sinks.

 

 

There is a whole bunch of truth in this post.

 

No matter how mature the individuals have become the affair does exist in a test environment. I know my MW very very well, and on many levels better than her husband does, and vice versa. I'm more sure about her than I ever was my wife, so I have a reasonable feeling that if I could make my M a go, with the necessary compromises I'm sure I could with this, BUT you never know completely. So my acceptance of the status quo is twofold. I don't want to breakup two families, and I sure don't want to go through it twice.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

There is a whole bunch of truth in this post.

 

No matter how mature the individuals have become the affair does exist in a test environment. I know my MW very very well, and on many levels better than her husband does, and vice versa. I'm more sure about her than I ever was my wife, so I have a reasonable feeling that if I could make my M a go, with the necessary compromises I'm sure I could with this, BUT you never know completely. So my acceptance of the status quo is twofold. I don't want to breakup two families, and I sure don't want to go through it twice.

 

Ok...with the clear understanding of my prejudice AGAINST affairs, for any reason...my challenge is this.

 

In your case, why, if your children would be better off with you, if your oldest child and the oldest child of your MOW are in favor of the relationship; if you are sure you know her better than your wife, and are more sure of her love, would you deprive the families of that better environment. If this is real then why not teach your children (all of your children) what a loving healthy relationship is like? If it is true love and a real relationship then why display the fraud of keeping the current marriages in tact? Why if it is right would there be a negative other an financial?

 

You can have custody, MOW can have custody, both of you and the 6 kids can live together, on slightly less income. They can retain relationships with the non custodial parents. The non custodial parents can go find loving relationships with other people who will be devoted to them.

 

Why would you want to raise all 6 children in dysfunction that does not provide them with healthy marital role models?

 

I understood what you said...but I am challenging it.

 

Why? Recently I witnessed a father, who realized ONLY when his son in law did to his daughter EXACTLY what he had done to his XWIFE many years before what horrible thing he did, he was a complete wreck. He called his x and begged her to forgive him. Because disfunctional behavior breeds dysfunction. Ok your (pre)teen children is very mature for (th)her age blah blah blah...but what are you going to say when her husband cheats on her? Stay married like I did? Stay in misery?

 

So again, if its REAL...what are you really waiting for?

[Realist3]

Ok...with the clear understanding of my prejudice AGAINST affairs, for any reason...my challenge is this.

 

In your case, why, if your children would be better off with you, if your oldest child and the oldest child of your MOW are in favor of the relationship; if you are sure you know her better than your wife, and are more sure of her love, would you deprive the families of that better environment. If this is real then why not teach your children (all of your children) what a loving healthy relationship is like? If it is true love and a real relationship then why display the fraud of keeping the current marriages in tact? Why if it is right would there be a negative other an financial?

 

You can have custody, MOW can have custody, both of you and the 6 kids can live together, on slightly less income. They can retain relationships with the non custodial parents. The non custodial parents can go find loving relationships with other people who will be devoted to them.

 

Why would you want to raise all 6 children in dysfunction that does not provide them with healthy marital role models?

 

I understood what you said...but I am challenging it.

 

Why? Recently I witnessed a father, who realized ONLY when his son in law did to his daughter EXACTLY what he had done to his XWIFE many years before what horrible thing he did, he was a complete wreck. He called his x and begged her to forgive him. Because disfunctional behavior breeds dysfunction. Ok your (pre)teen children is very mature for (th)her age blah blah blah...but what are you going to say when her husband cheats on her? Stay married like I did? Stay in misery?

 

So again, if its REAL...what are you really waiting for?

 

There would be no income loss. That is not a concern.

 

 

The main concern is that our kids all 6 of them, love their parents. My daughters love their mom, and her kids love their dad. The idea of my two girls getting used to a new mom, and her kids getting used to a new dad is very very daunting. Secondly, the dynamics of the kids with themselves. It sure looked great on The Brady Bunch, but I'm not quite that naive.

 

I'm not discounting anything you said, but those things are just not in the cards right now. She has a daughter that is a Sr. in high school and one that is a sophomore. If things are still going after those two get out of high school it may be a more possible situation. It may never be possible. But right now we both agree this is the situation that works best for all involved, despite the obvious negatives.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

There would be no income loss. That is not a concern.

 

 

The main concern is that our kids all 6 of them, love their parents. My daughters love their mom, and her kids love their dad. The idea of my two girls getting used to a new mom, and her kids getting used to a new dad is very very daunting. Secondly, the dynamics of the kids with themselves. It sure looked great on The Brady Bunch, but I'm not quite that naive.

 

I'm not discounting anything you said, but those things are just not in the cards right now. She has a daughter that is a Sr. in high school and one that is a sophomore. If things are still going after those two get out of high school it may be a more possible situation. It may never be possible. But right now we both agree this is the situation that works best for all involved, despite the obvious negatives.

 

Well, again, not here to thread jack and discuss your specific sitch...but these sound like cake eating to me. None of the kids lose any parent in a divorce. People in affairs always think the consequence is the divorce and not the completely dysfunctional family dynamic and that nobody is negatively impacted by the affair and they are wrong...every. single. time. Who knows your daughter could grow up hating your wife because she kept you from your true love all these years.

 

Which was the point of the thread. If its real...then...make it real...short term hurt for forever true love right?

[Furious]

Well, again, not here to thread jack and discuss your specific sitch...but these sound like cake eating to me. None of the kids lose any parent in a divorce. People in affairs always think the consequence is the divorce and not the completely dysfunctional family dynamic and that nobody is negatively impacted by the affair and they are wrong...every. single. time. Who knows your daughter could grow up hating your wife because she kept you from your true love all these years.

 

Which was the point of the thread. If its real...then...make it real...short term hurt for forever true love right?

 

 

it seems that some people want a "real" affair but not a "real" divorce.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

it seems that some people want a "real" affair but not a "real" divorce.

 

This seems to be the norm in these situations - if there is a norm.

[Realist3]

Well, again, not here to thread jack and discuss your specific sitch...but these sound like cake eating to me. None of the kids lose any parent in a divorce. People in affairs always think the consequence is the divorce and not the completely dysfunctional family dynamic and that nobody is negatively impacted by the affair and they are wrong...every. single. time. Who knows your daughter could grow up hating your wife because she kept you from your true love all these years.

 

Which was the point of the thread. If its real...then...make it real...short term hurt for forever true love right?

 

 

Sure they do. They lose them every morning and every night. Of course they will have them some mornings and some nights, but there existence as they have known is completely turned upside down.

 

As you know, it is not just us two but six other individuals. I have had some discussions with my daughter as as she with hers about possible scenarios, and at the current time we both feel our 'cake eating' scenario is the best for everyone involved at the current time. My daughter's question is, "Why did you marry her in the first place?" So in the future I hope to help her make a better decision than I did.

 

Which was the point of the thread. If its real...then...make it real...short term hurt for forever true love right?

 

That is easier said than done. Right now we are both able to be happy and content enough to where it is satisfying our needs, and satisfying the needs of those that surround us. We don't live in a bubble. All of these issues have been discussed many times at great length.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Sure they do. They lose them every morning and every night. Of course they will have them some mornings and some nights, but there existence as they have known is completely turned upside down.

 

As you know, it is not just us two but six other individuals. I have had some discussions with my daughter as as she with hers about possible scenarios, and at the current time we both feel our 'cake eating' scenario is the best for everyone involved at the current time. My daughter's question is, "Why did you marry her in the first place?" So in the future I hope to help her make a better decision than I did.

 

 

 

That is easier said than done. Right now we are both able to be happy and content enough to where it is satisfying our needs, and satisfying the needs of those that surround us. We don't live in a bubble. All of these issues have been discussed many times at great length.

 

It's 8 other individuals. Have you discussed what's best for them too?

[Realist3]

1 of them.

[busdriver]

This question is asked a lot here, in many different forms.

 

I've said before that I think people's ideas of "real" relationships are very different. The popular view seems to see marriage as the inevitable expression of "real" love. Anything short of that is less than real. Love means being out in the open, sharing bills and children and holidays and puke and tears, etc.

 

But there is more "real" life outside of these things. There's work -- and it seems that this is a divisive issue, since some people see work as a thing that you do for your family, and some poeple see it as a part of their identity. There's art. There's challenge and travel and accomplisment -- athletic, intellectual, whatever. There's sex. Now, I know that every M on LS was apparently plenty sexy before, during, and after the A. But that is not the case in every M (see the Marriage board, for example), and there are often fantasies that spouses are not willing to do with each other. So sex (or certain types of sex) may be something that the WS shares mainly with the AP.

 

So marriage, like an A, or like a friendship, or like a family relationship, may not contain EVERY aspect of life. For me that is ok. My A was mostly an intellectual connection -- an EA that got a little bit physical, no actual sex. The things I shared with my AP were things that my W had no interest in sharing (still doesn't.)

 

(Insert disclaimer here that the lies are what hurts. Understood. Hoping to stay on-topic.)

 

It's interesting. I've caught some heat here for the way I think about my Reconciliation. We have been in MC, and I worked very hard to accept the idea of "mature love" as my W and counselor understand it: history, children, things we've been through, the whole "love is a verb" thing. I live this with my W, and I'm ok with the idea that our M is based on something other than passion.

 

But when I talk about this here, I hear that this isn't "real", either. That I'm resigned, selling my wife short, settling for something less. It's a little baffling, because our M contains all the things you'll tell me my A lacked. But now it needs passion, too? I thought passion didn't make a relationship "real"?

 

I've never seen a relationship in the real world that does actually contain EVERYTHING. But I look forward to reading about them here.

[Realist3]

I've never seen a relationship in the real world that does actually contain EVERYTHING.

 

Probably the most poignant thing stated in this thread.

[Realist3]

^ You are confusing two very different things.

 

In reality people lie and people cheat. That is reality.

[Realist3]

If it wasn't your reality you wouldn't be with someone who lied and cheated on you, now would you? Much less be on a board discussing that very real part of your past.

[96nole]

Sure they do. They lose them every morning and every night. Of course they will have them some mornings and some nights, but there existence as they have known is completely turned upside down.

 

As you know, it is not just us two but six other individuals. I have had some discussions with my daughter as as she with hers about possible scenarios, and at the current time we both feel our 'cake eating' scenario is the best for everyone involved at the current time. My daughter's question is, "Why did you marry her in the first place?" So in the future I hope to help her make a better decision than I did.

 

 

 

That is easier said than done. Right now we are both able to be happy and content enough to where it is satisfying our needs, and satisfying the needs of those that surround us. We don't live in a bubble. All of these issues have been discussed many times at great length.

Perhaps you've answered the question above in another threat I didn't see, but what was the answer you gave your daughter as to why you married her mother?

[Got it]

Oh and I see you are still having inappropriate conversations with your daughter about her mother.

 

Maybe I don't know the backhistory here but why is that an inappropriate conversation with one's child? I made that statement to both my parents at multiple times growing up. Why? Because I witnessed their unhappiness, never saw any happiness so was very confused on why they were together outside of the kids.

 

I still haven't gotten a good answer on it and they have been divorced now for over a decade.

[Got it]

What is real? What isn't real? I don't think scrubbing toilets makes a relationship real or not (luckily I don't have to do that as we have a cleaning service) nor do I think a child free relationship is any less real than one with children. For me real is whether each party is being their true, full selves. So this could be in one relationship or no relationship depending on the individual. There some people that never are "real" in their relationships.

[Realist3]

Oh and I see you are still having inappropriate conversations with your daughter about her mother.

 

I think it is my decision what I deem an appropriate discussion with my daughter, not some internet stranger who wasn't privy to the discussion. But since you are so curious, two of her good friend's parents recently got divorced, and she had questions. It is a fact of life. I'm glad she felt she could ask me about it.

[Moper]

I don't know if I would say I defend them, but I certainly understand them. And yes I acknowledge my situation is certainly different that what comes around here in most instances. I would never advise anyone to get involved in an affair unless they were truly aware of all that comes with it. Even then I would suggest against doing so. I will be the first to admit that it is not all rainbows and unicorns. Sometimes I liken it to a form of self-torture.

 

It is definitely a form of self-torture.

[Betterthanthis13]

Naively on my D-day, I assumed that in order for someone to have an affair and to risk it all if found out that the affair relationship must have been "real".

 

Ironically, as I handed my husband his suitcase and wished him well, I was shocked he wasn't thrilled to leave and take his affair relationship out from the shadow and into the light.

 

I told him it had been unnecessary to have lied to me. The lies hurt me more than the actual affair. He knew me, knew that I had never been one to impose myself in anyone's path of happiness. It was so confusing and I have struggled with the concept of an affair being a real relationship and that once discovered the next logical step would be that the affair partners would be relieved and enthusiastically embrace being together and out in the open.

 

Is an affair a real relationship? I don't think so anymore. I'm interested in other's opinion as to whether they agree or disagree.

 

I've read the whole thread but just responding to OP. in my definition, all A's are real. They are really real. Even the shortest, most ridiculous example I can think of (my xbf having a ONS with a woman from Craigslist casual encounters) all the way through the spectrum of A's to a multi year love affair that in the WS's mind is their primary relationship, and the M remains in place, dead as a doorknob, just for appearances or whatever. And every A in between those two extremes.

 

I understand the idea that an A is not "real" because it is a "Disneyland" fantastical escape from reality, that when brought into the open isn't what the WS wants to pursue as their primary relationship.

 

I think that is like saying going to the movies is not real. Or going on vacation is not real. Those things are real. They just aren't representative of what you want to do with your life ALL of the time. They are a temporary escape from reality.

 

So i think the perception of an A being real or not is so all over the place because it is dependent mostly on the WS's level of self delusion. That's why it is so confusing for a BS.

[waterwoman]

I don't see what 'real' has to do with it. Reality is what knocked the gilt off the gingerbread of our marriage - a bit too much bloody reality TBH over the years. It's down to the bare bones now - and yes those bones are strong but I wish there was still a bit of gilt left.

[Got it]

I see what you are saying. I said what I said based on the backstory of this poster. On his very first thread on this forum he crowed about his daughters approval and participation in his affair. He had frank conversations with her and stated that she understood it very well and knew there would be repercussions if she didn't keep his secrets. She was only 11. I consider that child abuse and I probably shouldn't have said anything on this thread because I am very biased against this poster and I have avoided any discussion with him since his first thread as the whole thing sickened me. Will go back to doing that now.

 

Lima Charlie

[Red Wolverine]

Women want to believe he is choosing a woman.

He's not. He's choosing a lifestyle.

He does not want to be divorced. Period. (I am generalizing, but multiple ddays?)

 

Wow, I have never thought about it like this but I think it's a very valid point in understanding why so many don't divorce or have remorse if they do.

 

Not saying many men don't love their wives but I never considered the lifestyle and status components as being primary.

 

Most of the divorced men I know believed any sacrifice, usually financial, was worth it to be happier. To my knowledge, these marriages ended for reasons other than cheating so another woman didn't muddy the waters so to speak.

 

If you believe in the theory that people cheat rather than addressing issues, it would make sense that they aren't strong enough to divorce first.

[ladydesigner]

Wow, I have never thought about it like this but I think it's a very valid point in understanding why so many don't divorce or have remorse if they do.

 

Not saying many men don't love their wives but I never considered the lifestyle and status components as being primary.

 

Most of the divorced men I know believed any sacrifice, usually financial, was worth it to be happier. To my knowledge, these marriages ended for reasons other than cheating so another woman didn't muddy the waters so to speak.

 

If you believe in the theory that people cheat rather than addressing issues, it would make sense that they aren't strong enough to divorce first.

 

Absolutely and this would be my WH. It's called being conflict avoidant.

 

I was the poster with the multiple DDays thecharade was referring to. It does seem to be a lifestyle. I am watching his actions closely and if any of it does not feel genuine, I know the difference now, I will end the M. I have been through too much. If I am ever in a relationship again I will not take infidelity lightly. One strike you're out!