Consequences vs punishment

[Coolit]

I've been thinking about this and then after Betrayed husband's post thought it would be something to discuss. I know many on here would think my husband let me off scott free as their has been no natural consequences.

 

Personally, I don't care for the term 'consequences.' It's too broad and could include things like widespread exposure. I don't typically recommend it because (while it may be effective), it comes off as a punishment. I don't recommend punishing your spouse if you have hopes of reconciling your marriage. There's a difference between natural consequences and artificially-imposed ones.

 

For me I have had only natural consequences.

 

Hurting my H and knowing I did something so disgusting just got sex

I have lost self-respect. This one can be gained back but I suffered mentaly from it.

Carrying a big secret. When people in my family talk about so an so who cheated on their wife it is a painful reminder of what I did. And a small part o me wants to blurt out "I cheated too" and have it out there. But that is against my husband's wishes and frankly I know it would carry a lot of problems should my family find out.

Lost Innocence. Sounds silly to write that but up until xMM my H was my one and only EVERYTHING. Thats gone for good now and it is painful to know nothing can change or fix that.

Lost friends. xMM's wife was someone I hung out with a lot. And we also did things the four of us.

Tainted Memories. Any memories From that time period are tainted by what I did. Hanging out watching a movie, my Birthday, camping. Any fun we had is overshadowed by what I was secretly doing.

The list goes on. They are all emotional consequences. But it doesn't make them less real.

My husband has not yelled or kicked me out. He hasn't demanded I hand over my phone or checked my email. All the things BS's feel so neccesary. Perhaps it helped that I confessed instead of got caught. And he has always known all my passwords. He could be secretly spying on me but I don't think so. I have nothing to hide now.

 

I hate that I had an affair. I hate being that sort of person. I don't need "punishment" in order to be truly remorseful.

[ComingInHot]

On,e my H got "outed" by exow, then realized the full extent through my lain and his family's intervention (again done out of love for him and me and our family), his consequences finally hit him. He was forced to see himself for who and what he truly was and had been during and after the A. I didn't do anything malicious to punish him. I did what was necessary for Me and our children in order to "deal" and heal w/or w/out him.

I believe that, in some cases, a person involved in such a betrayal as an A, needs to be confronted by what they've done in order to fully realize the detestation THEY have caused. Only then (for these individuals w/self entitlement, narcissism and all round ego issues) can they see THEMSELVES for who they are or have become and the full extent of the damage they caused because of their Adultery.

 

Maybe (and this could be a poor analogy), it's like cheating on your taxes or committing a crime of some kind. You can feel bad and confess your crime to your spouse or friend and see the disappointment in their eyes But until others find out, even the authorities, and face the consequences socially & legally, it's still kind of like you got away it, even though, you "feel" bad. Some people are wired in a way that they just don't feel bad enough to never do it again Until they get busted & have real consequences. Others may never do it again because they know it was wrong and risky, but don't feel like it was this big huge horrible deal because there were no consequences.

 

Hope that made sense*

[It-is-what-it-is.]

For some truly remorseful WS, all punishment is self inflicted.

 

I do think that there is a natural desire (at least temporarily) to try to cause the WS pain. RA, physical, throwing things etc., doesn't usually help the pain the BS is feeling.

 

I don't know if it is easier or harder when you don't have ANY anger towards the WS, seems like it could be stuffing down feelings to avoid putting more pressure on WS? which seems kinda unfair burden on BS.

 

My husband has not yelled or kicked me out. He hasn't demanded I hand over my phone or checked my email. All the things BS's feel so neccesary. Perhaps it helped that I confessed instead of got caught. And he has always known all my passwords. He could be secretly spying on me but I don't think so. I have nothing to hide now.

 

Transparency should not be seen as a punishment, it should be seen as a way for WS to build trust and make the relationship safe for the BS to continue to out in effort.

 

If its seen as punishment then the WS is not remorseful IMO.

 

I think Coolit, you are an exception, and your husband is definitely an amazingly forgiving person. I hope you appreciate how much of a shix sandwich you gave him and with how much grace he is handling it all.

 

Good luck to you

[whatatangledweb]

My husband punishes himself. He has yet to forgive himself though I forgave him a long time ago. He has to live with what he did and it is hard for him. He became the one person he never thought he could be. It is hard to watch someone you love beat himself up over it. Like Strongernow, I never withheld love or affection from him.

[BetrayedH]

I think of having an affair as a bit of a coping mechanism, much like alcohol, drugs, sex, and what not. Throw in the addiction aspect and it seems a fair analogy. What I've seen is that a coping mechanism works for people until it doesn't anymore. Many have to hit rock bottom before they change. For some, Dday is that rock bottom. For others, they keep digging deeper.

 

For those that have decided to dig their way out, I applaud those efforts. And I think that if a betrayed spouse loves their partner enough, they have the right to support their WS in recovery from that coping mechanism. I maitain that an affair doesn't have to define a person (or a marriage).

 

Sadly, the lies and deception make it incredibly hard to even figure out which scenario you have before you. And then you'd have to trust the liar. That's a tall order for a BS. It doesn't seem to me that punishment fits into that recipe.

[road]

I've been thinking about this and then after Betrayed husband's post thought it would be something to discuss. I know many on here would think my husband let me off scott free as their has been no natural consequences.

 

 

 

For me I have had only natural consequences.

 

Hurting my H and knowing I did something so disgusting just got sex

I have lost self-respect. This one can be gained back but I suffered mentaly from it.

Carrying a big secret. When people in my family talk about so an so who cheated on their wife it is a painful reminder of what I did. And a small part o me wants to blurt out "I cheated too" and have it out there. But that is against my husband's wishes and frankly I know it would carry a lot of problems should my family find out.

Lost Innocence. Sounds silly to write that but up until xMM my H was my one and only EVERYTHING. Thats gone for good now and it is painful to know nothing can change or fix that.

Lost friends. xMM's wife was someone I hung out with a lot. And we also did things the four of us.

Tainted Memories. Any memories From that time period are tainted by what I did. Hanging out watching a movie, my Birthday, camping. Any fun we had is overshadowed by what I was secretly doing.

The list goes on. They are all emotional consequences. But it doesn't make them less real.

My husband has not yelled or kicked me out. He hasn't demanded I hand over my phone or checked my email. All the things BS's feel so neccesary. Perhaps it helped that I confessed instead of got caught. And he has always known all my passwords. He could be secretly spying on me but I don't think so. I have nothing to hide now.

 

I hate that I had an affair. I hate being that sort of person. I don't need "punishment" in order to be truly remorseful.

 

 

Facing consequences is not and being punished both hurt. The hurting does not make them the same.

[Steadfast]

Personally, I don't care for the term 'consequences.' It's too broad and could include things like widespread exposure. I don't typically recommend it because (while it may be effective), it comes off as a punishment. I don't recommend punishing your spouse if you have hopes of reconciling your marriage. There's a difference between natural consequences and artificially-imposed ones.

 

There isn't anyone on LS that I respect for than Kidd, and the above demonstrates why. Like me, he didn't reconcile and that makes the outlook much, much different indeed. In fact, I've nearly stopped posting to threads with reconciled partners because I have nothing for them.

 

I'd take Kidd's statement a step further and say there's no good in punishing regardless. IMO, healing -true, profound and permanent healing- involves a full dose of humility. My story changed when I dropped any thoughts of my ex wife's 'situation' and focused on making me a better, smarter, more capable person. Even reformed cheaters seem focused on the consequences that their actions have/had upon them, very often failing to realize the effects their actions have had on others. Especially a spouse.

 

I have no idea where my ex is now, emotionally or mentally, but I do know that like most people the things she's learned on her own have stuck with her better and more completely than the things I told her. This I do know; the problems she once blamed on me before cannot be blamed on me now. In this way, one can only hope that she's finally getting a clue.

[Zenstudent]

I guess there is a thin line between consequences and punishment in some people's mind. For me, the consequences for what my husband did are more than enough for him. He deals daily with what he did. I do not impose any punishments on him like with holding affection, being mean, outing, etc... His guilt and shame are punishment enough. I see his anguish and although he deserves it, it's still painful to see, why rub salt in the wounds of someone you love?

 

I think of having an affair as a bit of a coping mechanism, much like alcohol, drugs, sex, and what not. Throw in the addiction aspect and it seems a fair analogy. What I've seen is that a coping mechanism works for people until it doesn't anymore. Many have to hit rock bottom before they change. For some, Dday is that rock bottom. For others, they keep digging deeper.

 

For those that have decided to dig their way out, I applaud those efforts. And I think that if a betrayed spouse loves their partner enough, they have the right to support their WS in recovery from that coping mechanism. I maitain that an affair doesn't have to define a person (or a marriage).

 

Sadly, the lies and deception make it incredibly hard to even figure out which scenario you have before you. And then you'd have to trust the liar. That's a tall order for a BS. It doesn't seem to me that punishment fits into that recipe.

Indeed there's a thin line between the two, and I think they are often confused, I do it some times, I'm sure. It also depends on the person describing it.

 

What are for instance "natural consequences"? Feeling guilt - that's a consequence you impose on yourself, so it's not just a natural consequence, it's also self punishment. Some think that full transparancy is a natural consequence from infidelity, others view it as punishment.

 

But does it really matter if it's one or the other? I believe we learn more effectively from our actions if there are consequences, whether they are natural, self imposed or imposed by others doesn't make a big difference to me.

 

Just thought of this: Could there be a connection between degree of entitlement and tendency towards thinking of consequences as punishment? I noticed it on a few occassions, that those WS who to me seems remorsefull doesn't talk much about punishment and vice/versa.

 

And yes BH; not being able to tell which scenario it is, is one of the most energy draining consequences I had and still have as a BS.

[road]

Facing consequences is not and being punished both hurt. The hurting does not make them the same.

 

 

Should said: Facing consequences and being punished both hurt. The hurting does not make them the same

[twosadthings]

What do you and you husband need to be safe in your marriage? The natural consequences were all there before you cheated but yet you did. The artificial "Scarlet letter" ones, divorce, exposure, post nupual agreements, etc. end or lessen the relationship.

 

He will have to look at you and wonder what you're thinking. Will you looking at him and knowing what he's thinking be enough to keep him safe?

 

Twosadthings

[road]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BetrayedH

Personally, I don't care for the term 'consequences.' It's too broad and could include things like widespread exposure. I don't typically recommend it because (while it may be effective), it comes off as a punishment. I don't recommend punishing your spouse if you have hopes of reconciling your marriage. There's a difference between natural consequences and artificially-imposed ones.

 

 

The amount of discomfort is not the dividing line between a consequence and punishment.

 

When there is an affair exposure is a must. If being caught in an affair is an embarrassment then they should of not been in an affair. The WS knew being caught in an affair would be an embarrassment. That is why the WS sneaks around with there AP.

[dichotomy]

This is very personal, and many of you won't understand or won't think well of us ....but It took a long time for my wife to feel any guilt or remorse for what she did to me or others. She lives "in the moment" more than any other person I have ever met.

 

I "punished" her because she would not punish herself. Until we started therapy where she could not avoid or minimize or rationalize what she did... could not look another woman (therapist) in the eye and not own her bad choices... then and only then did she start to take some amount of accountability, remorse, and accept the consequences in our marriage as hers (and not mine).

 

I felt I could begin to let go my anger and need to punish once the therapist go into it with her, and the therapist asked me to step back to avoid an ongoing power struggle. Many therapist are not willing to take such an active role on behalf of a BS -take sides - but this one did on this issue.

 

Wanting to hurt - to punish - someone back after you have been hurt is not right, but it a part of human nature. I am glad to be letting go of this after so long.

[BetrayedH]

The amount of discomfort is not the dividing line between a consequence and punishment.

 

When there is an affair exposure is a must. If being caught in an affair is an embarrassment then they should of not been in an affair. The WS knew being caught in an affair would be an embarrassment. That is why the WS sneaks around with there AP.

 

I'm not sure how much exposure is a must. I think it's a natural consequence that a BS is going to tell friends and family for support or that they're going to tell the other BS out of empathy. I never felt guilty for that. But at one point I exposed her affair to her father. I actually did it because I wanted in some way to say goodbye to her family; I had exposed to the OMW earlier in the day and assumed my wife would freak and we'd be done. It wasn't the end for us but I think it always felt like a punishment to my wife (she was wrong about that). One piece of exposure I avoided was outing her at her workplace. To be brief, if I love my wife and hope to reconcile with her, I shouldn't be contributing to getting her fired. That felt like an artificially-imposed consequence to me and one that would have been inconsistent with loving my wife and working on my marriage. I could certainly justify it but to me, there were already enough natural consequences to my wife's affair such that I didn't need to come up with new ones.

 

Of course, it could be argued that my failure to do widespread exposure and exact harsh consequences contributed to my failed reconciliation. I don't deny that widespread exposure may be more effective in killing an affair. But for me, if I wanted to restore my marriage, I also wanted it to be one worth being in. And if my wife were only staying out of guilt, obligation, or fear of consequences, then I wasn't much interested. I didn't want the marriage if the new dynamic was such that I was punishing her to make her stay. As others have said, there's a fine line between natural consequences and punishment. I did my best to walk that line. I didn't protect her from the natural consequences but I didn't seek out opportunities to enforce artificial ones either. When it came to my wife changing, it really needed to come from her anyway.

[BetrayedH]

This is very personal, and many of you won't understand or won't think well of us ....but It took a long time for my wife to feel any guilt or remorse for what she did to me or others. She lives "in the moment" more than any other person I have ever met.

 

I "punished" her because she would not punish herself. Until we started therapy where she could not avoid or minimize or rationalize what she did... could not look another woman (therapist) in the eye and not own her bad choices... then and only then did she start to take some amount of accountability, remorse, and accept the consequences in our marriage as hers (and not mine).

 

I felt I could begin to let go my anger and need to punish once the therapist go into it with her, and the therapist asked me to step back to avoid an ongoing power struggle. Many therapist are not willing to take such an active role on behalf of a BS -take sides - but this one did on this issue.

 

Wanting to hurt - to punish - someone back after you have been hurt is not right, but it a part of human nature. I am glad to be letting go of this after so long.

 

I'm glad you had a good therapist that helped your wife see the consequences for her actions while leaving you out of it.

 

And I'm glad you're starting to be able to let it go. You've always sounded like a person that deserved a successful reconciliation.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I think one of the hardest things about all this crap is doing and saying things you can't change. The WS that has to live with the purposeful cruelty, potential destruction of the family etc. And the BS who has to live with both their humiliation of the affair itself and their reaction to it.

 

Ultimately the harm has to be forgivable.

 

I do think that the consequence from the affair includes people knowing, telling the SO, and can include negative things like job loss, loss of friendships, and can also include dealing with a serious negative reaction (e.g. RA)

 

As a consequence of an affair, the WS should willingly do anything to help BS feel safe. At first un-remorseful WS may see those things may feel like punishment. Transparency, loss of email, text privacy, needing to update BS on activities, elimination of folks who are not friends of the marriage. Etc.

 

I think punishing is different. Punishing is done to try to even a score that can never be even.

 

It's possible that the only difference is the motivation.

[aliveagain]

There was a moment before you decided that permanently changing your relationship with your husband was worth the thrill of strange di*k, you must have thought about the risk and the consequences of starting an affair even if he never spoke the words. You have your own established consequences that you would have imposed on him if the situation were reversed, these are the minimum that would have been in effect. These are a part of who you are and have been with you most of your dating life, they are activated the moment you mutually decide to be exclusive to each other. Even open relationships have boundaries. No consequence or other perceived punishment will ever change what you did or make it go away. You can both agree to live with it but it will always be the big white elephant in the room that shows up every time your late because of work or it can show up watching a movie that has unexpected infidelity in it. Only you can decide if it was all worth it, if you really love this man impose your own consequences on yourself and just do them anyway. This will go a long way towards building trust, the cheating is now part of who you are but only you can hold it in check.

[janedoe67]

I agree with much of what has been posted.

 

Transparency is not punishment. Accountability is not punishment. Exposure to people who make sense is not punishment. Expressing hurt and anger is not punishment.

 

An RA? Well that's just plain old cheating; let's not delude ourselves.

 

However...and I say this with my husband's agreement:

 

Once I took responsibility and changed, the affair became part of who I WAS, not who I am.

 

That is one of the reasons I know I am lucky to have HIM.

[Woggle]

That only works with people who are capable of feeling remorse for hurting their spouse. It is a trait many cheaters sorely lack.

[drifter777]

There are cases when the BS decides - for any number of reasons - to stay married to the WS even when they are not remorseful. In these cases I think many BS's punish their WS with passive/aggressive or even downright abusive behavior because they were unwilling to take the action to cause their WS to suffer consequences for their cheating. It may not be the right way for the BS to handle it but the hurt, shame, and anger will come out in some fashion. I guess I'm saying if there is an absence of consequences, punishment may end up being the only weapon the BS is able to employ.

[ComingInHot]

Drifter, I think my Grandparents lived that way. They HATED each other! Someone close to my Grandmother told her "you made your bed, now you lie in it". She never D'd but she "punished" him every chance she got for him making her life he!!... I think because they stayed M, they or at least my grandmother became someone she probably never would have.

Sometimes R should NOT be considered, or in my grandparents case "staying M'd" as they never R'd...

[drifter777]

...

 

Sometimes R should NOT be considered, or in my grandparents case "staying M'd" as they never R'd...

 

Clearly there's a big difference between reconciliation and just "staying married".

[BetrayedH]

There are cases when the BS decides - for any number of reasons - to stay married to the WS even when they are not remorseful. In these cases I think many BS's punish their WS with passive/aggressive or even downright abusive behavior because they were unwilling to take the action to cause their WS to suffer consequences for their cheating. It may not be the right way for the BS to handle it but the hurt, shame, and anger will come out in some fashion. I guess I'm saying if there is an absence of consequences, punishment may end up being the only weapon the BS is able to employ.

 

This is quite true. In my sitch, I thought I had a remorseful WW that had completely come clean, etc.. And so I fought hard to avoid bringing artificial consequences to bear. But the anger I felt at choking down that shi t sandwich was overwhelming. As well, my ego was sorely beaten and I was insanely jealous that my wife was just going to have gotten away with a year-long affair in the middle of our marriage. It ate at me enough that I eventually had my own brief hidden affair to compensate for it. I didn't want to be angry anymore. I wanted things to be more balanced. Perhaps if she had suffered more consequences, it wouldn't have felt so unfair. But I don't think I had it in me to punish her. It really was just a no-win situation and frankly, I lost my marbles trying to find a solution.

[road]

One piece of exposure I avoided was outing her at her workplace. To be brief, if I love my wife and hope to reconcile with her, I shouldn't be contributing to getting her fired. That felt like an artificially-imposed consequence to me and one that would have been inconsistent with loving my wife and working on my marriage. I could certainly justify it but to me, there were already enough natural consequences to my wife's affair such that I didn't need to come up with new ones.

 

 

 

Did your WW work with the OM or meet the OM through work? If yes then a work place exposure was a must.

[road]

This is quite true. In my sitch, I thought I had a remorseful WW that had completely come clean, etc.. And so I fought hard to avoid bringing artificial consequences to bear. But the anger I felt at choking down that shi t sandwich was overwhelming. As well, my ego was sorely beaten and I was insanely jealous that my wife was just going to have gotten away with a year-long affair in the middle of our marriage. It ate at me enough that I eventually had my own brief hidden affair to compensate for it. I didn't want to be angry anymore. I wanted things to be more balanced. Perhaps if she had suffered more consequences, it wouldn't have felt so unfair. But I don't think I had it in me to punish her. It really was just a no-win situation and frankly, I lost my marbles trying to find a solution.

 

 

You did not want to punish your WW.

 

Then you go and have an RA. How is a RA not punishment?

[BetrayedH]

Did your WW work with the OM or meet the OM through work? If yes then a work place exposure was a must.

 

Yes, he was her boss. I gave her 90 days to no longer work with him and she complied. As it turns out, it was a reasonable amount of time for one of them to transfer but it was not a reasonable amount of time for me to accept them working together. Although I wouldn't change my decision on workplace exposure, in hindsight I would go back and have her quit the job or face divorce. I made a lot of mistakes. But I still don't regret not exposing them at work.