"So you've been having sex with my wife?"

[So happy together]

Realist,

 

I am OW. While I can see the point you are trying to drive home, I'm going to have to disagree. While I agree that most of the time if someone cheats the marriage is not in a good place, you still cannot really blame the BS. I really think that people (generally speaking) don't cheat when things are blissful. But I do think that people cheat for a plethora of other reasons. The biggest one I see is complacency on the part of both partners.

 

The thing is, should we go into a R worrying about if/when our partner will eventually cheat? I hope not. So, BH can take responsibility for any part he played in the marriage falling apart prior to the A, and she must take responsibility for cheating.

 

I don't tell people not to cheat. I don't think it's a good idea, it's a tough gig, to say the least. I support someone in a parallel R if they need it. But this... thing, you've got going, esp. this specific case is just, I don't know. I just don't know how you can blame him for the actual affair.

 

Doesn't that sort of take the personal responsibility away from the guilty parties? The WS and, to some extent, the AP?

 

I really think it's a big deal to take responsibility for your part in the A, whatever it was. If, as a BS, you feel there were reasons that your marriage was not up to par, own it, but the majority goes to the others.

 

My sMM was miserable. I still (and so does he) wish we had waited. Life would have been so much easier. Not only that, but it's given BS a free pass. For that, I feel sorry. She'll never do any soul searching etc. But really, while I don't deny or even really regret my R, I still know we are the major players. I used to blame her a lot. I still blame her some, but less. Not that she is any less horrible, but more that I know WE made the decision.

 

So... I don't know. Just... be nice.

[BetrayedH]

To be fair I can see Realist point here but I don't think it applies to BH.

 

In my case- I had plentty of red flags and I went against my better judgement to involve myself with xbf. That is my responsibility.

 

I do think this varies from betrayed to betrayed. Any red flags I had were from before we were exclusive. I then had 18 years with no reason to suspect a problem.

 

I think it's wise to he able to acknowledge when red flags were ignored. That helps with future relationships. But the fact remains that some of us were just plain lied to by a person that demonstated trustworthy behavior over a long period of time.

[waterwoman]

What is the second betrayal realist? Is it the telling of the other bs? Is there some sort of promise between APs NOT to tell? Or is simply a tacit agreement?

 

In this case, taking it at face value, the MM told the MW that he didn't want the affair any longer - that is the nature of affairs isn't it? That they can end at any time for a variety of reasons. And many many time on here I have read that xMM who insist on trying to draw the OW back into the affair by breaking NC are the scum of the earth. in this case the MW refused to honour NC. Ian did what I have seen many OW do - they told the BS so they could keep the other MP in check. So where lies the second betrayal? For the affair partners surely the 'betrayal' lies in breaking the rules - MW broke them first by refusing to accept NC.

[Realist3]

The choice to cheat does not say ONE thing about the betrayed.

 

The choice to cheat speaks volumes about those involved.

 

I never argued otherwise.

[Realist3]

What is the second betrayal realist? Is it the telling of the other bs? Is there some sort of promise between APs NOT to tell? Or is simply a tacit agreement?

 

In this case, taking it at face value, the MM told the MW that he didn't want the affair any longer - that is the nature of affairs isn't it? That they can end at any time for a variety of reasons. And many many time on here I have read that xMM who insist on trying to draw the OW back into the affair by breaking NC are the scum of the earth. in this case the MW refused to honour NC. Ian did what I have seen many OW do - they told the BS so they could keep the other MP in check. So where lies the second betrayal? For the affair partners surely the 'betrayal' lies in breaking the rules - MW broke them first by refusing to accept NC.

 

 

The second betrayal would be the telling of the other BS by the AP. I would guess that in some instances it is tacit, and it others explicit, regardless the whole basic nature of affairs is a level of secrecy and discretion, so I'm not sure it makes much of a difference.

 

In this particular case the OP says he originally took his course of action to make sure it stopped. Did he tell her this was going to happen, or did he make the decision by himself?

 

Later it becomes clear his main motivation was more about making sure there were consequences for her as well as making sure she didn't cheat with someone else besides him. Those two rationales are definitely an act of betrayal.

[Betterthanthis13]

I do think this varies from betrayed to betrayed. Any red flags I had were from before we were exclusive. I then had 18 years with no reason to suspect a problem.

 

I think it's wise to he able to acknowledge when red flags were ignored. That helps with future relationships. But the fact remains that some of us were just plain lied to by a person that demonstated trustworthy behavior over a long period of time.

 

Mine was (is) an expert manipulator and very, very good liar. In a lot of respects he demonstrated trustworthy behavior- In hindsight he went to what i would consider formidable lenghts to conceal his extracurricular actions. At the time I chose to be with him I don't think I was making a bad choice at all given the information available to me. I'm pretty pragmatic and weigh pros and cons and all that- he just was better at lying than I was at lie detecting for awhile. Who's fault is that? I don't know it just sounds like something I want no part of.

 

If you guys met him in real life, not knowing my side of the story, you would most likely enjoy his company and *think* he is a great guy. I fell for it. On the other hand- I did have those red flags.

 

So what is the solution? Be so hypervigilant that you never trust anyone and discard them on the first sight of a red flag? Date people who are stupider than you and can't manipulate you because they just aren't all that bright? Or take a chance at getting your heart broken by a seemingly awesome person who may be concealing a "dark side"? Lol I have no answers-

 

I think my chances are slim of ever running into this particular situation again, so I'm not going to become suspicious of men if I can help it. But good grief.

 

I can take responsibility for mistakes I've made by giving him the benefit of the doubt when I probably shouldn't have- but seriously I can't imagine anyone not having fell for what I fell for. Some people really are that good at presenting false realities unfortunately.

[Betterthanthis13]

The second betrayal would be the telling of the other BS by the AP. I would guess that in some instances it is tacit, and it others explicit, regardless the whole basic nature of affairs is a level of secrecy and discretion, so I'm not sure it makes much of a difference.

 

In this particular case the OP says he originally took his course of action to make sure it stopped. Did he tell her this was going to happen, or did he make the decision by himself?

 

Later it becomes clear his main motivation was more about making sure there were consequences for her as well as making sure she didn't cheat with someone else besides him. Those two rationales are definitely an act of betrayal.

 

So in your opinion, informing a BS is wrong by default unless you are the WS- possibly a valid opinion but even then- the choice to tell or not tell becomes a "lesser of 2 evils" scenario. Is it more wrong to inform someone of an injustice when it is "not your place" to do so, or is it more wrong to allow a possibly harmful situation to exist when you have the knowledge to do something about it? Motivations aside- no person is devoid of selfishness and only acts upon pure love for the world and all the people in it. Sometimes you have to make choices in non ideal conditions.

[Realist3]

So in your opinion, informing a BS is wrong by default unless you are the WS- possibly a valid opinion but even then- the choice to tell or not tell becomes a "lesser of 2 evils" scenario. Is it more wrong to inform someone of an injustice when it is "not your place" to do so, or is it more wrong to allow a possibly harmful situation to exist when you have the knowledge to do something about it? Motivations aside- no person is devoid of selfishness and only acts upon pure love for the world and all the people in it. Sometimes you have to make choices in non ideal conditions.

 

 

I think a WS informing his/her own BS is not a betrayal. Those are separate relationships. The WS informing the BS of the AP is a betrayal under any circumstance.

 

I won't deny selfishness exists in many forms. I don't think affairs can be classified as an injustice in the classic sense.

 

Let's take this out of the abstract. Yes, I think it was a total betrayal by Ian to tell his AP's BS. That was a betrayal of their relationship that they both agreed to. Whether one tries to jump through hoops determining whether it is more wrong or less wrong really serves no purpose.

 

I know many people like to embrace disclosure all in the name of truth, and motivations are deemed by them to be irrelevant. I differ from that point of view. Motivations are an important part of every day life. Even the OP says he did it out of spite.

[Betterthanthis13]

I think a WS informing his/her own BS is not a betrayal. Those are separate relationships. The WS informing the BS of the AP is a betrayal under any circumstance.

 

I won't deny selfishness exists in many forms. I don't think affairs can be classified as an injustice in the classic sense.

 

Let's take this out of the abstract. Yes, I think it was a total betrayal by Ian to tell his AP's BS. That was a betrayal of their relationship that they both agreed to. Whether one tries to jump through hoops determining whether it is more wrong or less wrong really serves no purpose.

 

I know many people like to embrace disclosure all in the name of truth, and motivations are deemed by them to be irrelevant. I differ from that point of view. Motivations are an important part of every day life. Even the OP says he did it out of spite.

 

I can see your point. Faintly but I do see it. I do believe lying to an innocent party to get what you selfishly want (betrayal) is objectively wrong. But I also believe to an exent, all is fair in love and war. Sometimes things don't or cant make sense- on the surface. We aren't on earth indefinitely and can't live for idealism all the time. Life is finite.

 

Non abstract- giving Ian advice and looking out for his best interests- given the information at hand I think he did the right thing by telling. But my belief is that telling is the right thing by default because truth is the right thing by default.

 

his motivations were not pure in intent. So what? He has to protect his life and his sanity. He was presented with a situation that he did not create- and had to make the best of it. Choosing truth over lies is probably in his long term best interests. How that affects the relationship between xAP and xAP's BS, or whether it was right or wrong objectively- is lower on the list of things he should be worrying about. I don't think what he did was wrong objectively, or wrong in his own best interests, even if he was choosing an objective wrong as the lesser of two evils. Either way- he's fighting for truth and fighting to get his life and sanity back after being placed in a mentally damaging, unpleasant situation. How can that be wrong?

[Betterthanthis13]

I just think relying in "honor among thieves" is less likely to produce happy results in your own life long term, than not being a thief in the first place. I could be wrong- I am not exactly proving my own theory right by example. So, there is that

[Realist3]

He was presented with a situation that he did not create- and had to make the best of it.

 

Sure he created it, and when he got busted he decided to explode his AP's world as well. Sorry, but that gets so sympathy from me. He made his bed and he should lie in it, not try and inflict pain on someone else.

[Betterthanthis13]

Sure he created it, and when he got busted he decided to explode his AP's world as well. Sorry, but that gets so sympathy from me. He made his bed and he should lie in it, not try and inflict pain on someone else.

 

Crap this is really embarrassing but I was remembering the OP wrong. I was thinking he was the BS and was informing his WS xAP.

 

Wrong BTT!!! -re-read OP- he is the WS and informed his xAP's BS.

 

I still have the same opinion but for a different reason. Yes he created the situation. Yes best case scenario is that his xAP informs her own BS. In the absence of that- and in his own best interest- if she won't do what is right for her own spouse----why shouldn't he?

[Betterthanthis13]

Sure he created it, and when he got busted he decided to explode his AP's world as well. Sorry, but that gets so sympathy from me. He made his bed and he should lie in it, not try and inflict pain on someone else.

 

Pain was inflicted at time of betrayal- time of information is immaterial.

[Betterthanthis13]

Sure he created it, and when he got busted he decided to explode his AP's world as well. Sorry, but that gets so sympathy from me. He made his bed and he should lie in it, not try and inflict pain on someone else.

 

If he and xAP had gotten drunk once and had a ONS and felt terrible and neither were ever going to repeat- ok fine don't tell. Even my idealistic ass can say that. (Even though I would still tell if I ever did that. But I'm probably nuts and I realize that)

 

This wasnt that. This was real betrayal. Tell. Get it out, deal with it and get over it. Chips fall where they may.

[BetrayedH]

Crap this is really embarrassing but I was remembering the OP wrong. I was thinking he was the BS and was informing his WS xAP.

 

Wrong BTT!!! -re-read OP- he is the WS and informed his xAP's BS.

 

I still have the same opinion but for a different reason. Yes he created the situation. Yes best case scenario is that his xAP informs her own BS. In the absence of that- and in his own best interest- if she won't do what is right for her own spouse----why shouldn't he?

 

I think it is an ethical question. Telling his APs BS does "good" by the BS but is a "betrayal" of his former AP.

 

In my view, he has helped an innocent party and hurt his partner in crime. That doesn't seem much of an ethical dilemma to me.

[Betterthanthis13]

I think it is an ethical question. Telling his APs BS does "good" by the BS but is a "betrayal" of his former AP.

 

In my view, he has helped an innocent party and hurt his partner in crime. That doesn't seem much of an ethical dilemma to me.

 

No ethical dilemma here either- agree- I just have some reading comprehension issues today...

[Realist3]

Crap this is really embarrassing but I was remembering the OP wrong. I was thinking he was the BS and was informing his WS xAP.

 

Wrong BTT!!! -re-read OP- he is the WS and informed his xAP's BS.

 

I still have the same opinion but for a different reason. Yes he created the situation. Yes best case scenario is that his xAP informs her own BS. In the absence of that- and in his own best interest- if she won't do what is right for her own spouse----why shouldn't he?

 

 

Who is he to determine what is best with her relationship with her husband? It is not his place.

[Realist3]

I think it is an ethical question. Telling his APs BS does "good" by the BS but is a "betrayal" of his former AP.

 

In my view, he has helped an innocent party and hurt his partner in crime. That doesn't seem much of an ethical dilemma to me.

 

Before he got busted he was just fine keeping their secret. Once he got busted he decided to react out of spite.

[BetrayedH]

Before he got busted he was just fine keeping their secret. Once he got busted he decided to react out of spite.

 

I really give little weight to his betrayal of his partner in crime when it's in the best interest of an innocent party. Nor do I much care if he is acting out of spite, other than to say he should analyze his motivations. I still find it the ethical course to act in favor of the betrayed person.

 

And I never get the "it's not his place" argument, regardless of how many times it is used. If I saw a man harming a woman anywhere, I would intervene (even if it was his wife and it was not my place). I see it as common decency.

[Betterthanthis13]

Who is he to determine what is best with her relationship with her husband? It is not his place.

 

Exactly. Why should he care? If its potentially better for him and his life to tell- why not? Why should he or his W mentally suffer for even one second because she doesn't want to tell her H? If it makes his W feel better or helps his M, or he and his wife get D but he feels better doing it-who cares? He broke up with AP. he owes her nothing, and he never respected her M to begin with. Why start now?

 

Just going with the convo. I'd tell because I felt bad for BS being in the dark and that bugs me. But even if it didnt- why not tell? He felt like telling. It suited him at the time.

 

He felt like sleeping with the guys's W behind his back and did that. So why not tell?

[Realist3]

It is not about respecting her marriage. I'm just saying he betrayed his wife and then turned around and betrayed is OW.

[ian1966]

A little insight into the moment of truth (the phone call to my AP's H) and what I was thinking at the time.

I struggled for about an hour with his number punched in and ready to dial...

Dialed twice and hung up on hearing his voice.

So nervous...

 

My only thought at that moment was "I've gotta do this, I want this all to stop right now and I want our lives back the way they were" (My W and I).

Yes, I know our relationship would never be quite the same, but damn it, I was going to do the absolute best I could.

 

The situation was only going to get worse. Last email from AP she said she had a new plan to keep it all undercover and had just bought a new secret prepaid mobile to communicate with and that I should do the same... Just getting deeper...

 

I truly did not INTEND harm to her (of course I knew it would cause a DDay for her) and spitefulness was not a motivation, until at some point in the conversation I "broke" and wanted her to get in as much trouble as possible with him - I DID NOT PRE-PLAN THIS, I was just overwhelmed in the moment.

By doing so I really wanted to ensure the whole thing stopped there and then.

That there would be NO CHANCE of her contacting me. Cane me for that, but I did ONLY TELL THE COMPLETE TRUTH TO HIM.

 

 

When I called I stated the facts clearly and I then asked if he had any questions. Of course he did. I answered every one of them honestly, which led me to revealing many details, including her purchase of the new phone, and many details of their recent weekend activities.

 

He was remarkably calm and did not abuse me or raise his voice in any way.

I asked him what he would like me to do. He asked that I call her (at her work) and tell her to call him. I did.

 

That's the last I heard apart from one email asking me to "man up and explain my self" to her. I did not reply.

 

My actions were appreciated by my W, and since then I have done everything possible to regain her trust.

 

One last thing. I told my W that if I EVER receive any contact from xAP I would contact W immediately. I have even practiced how I would handle a call/text from her. If a call, I would simply verify it was her and hang up, call W right away and she would call AP's H and advise him.

xAP has not called, I hope she doesn't but in another way I hope she DOES CALL, just so I can prove to my W that what I have said I would do would be proven to her. And before you jump on me saying I have some kind of subconcious yearning for xAP, I DONT - IT WOULD BE ONLY TO PROVE MYSELF TO MY WIFE.

 

Thanks for your replies.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

While many of us, me included, would really like to debate the ethics and morality of REALIST's unique view of marital right and wrong...the topic here was about the OP informing the BH of his MOW.

 

I believe that OP said his BS required/requested that he out the affair.(did I recollect incorrectly?)

 

I also believe he had many multi layered motives for doing so. One of which was to stick it to his AP.

 

I believe that when you have an affair there is WELL an understanding that the shix could hit the fan at some point. I mean...nobody can claim not to know this is a possibility right?

 

I also believe that whatever lies or truths or half lies or half truths are told between the affair partners a sane person assume that each party will take care of themselves when that time comes.

 

Outing the affair by the AP to the BS happens all the time, look at threads in OM/OW for discussions on active or passive outing, setting up information to be found out etc.

 

Look in Infidelity and see how often BS say they got a call, email, letter, text, Facebook whatever outing the affair.

 

It.just.is. One of the risks when you chose to do it. Is this different because he's a male?

 

Complaining that somehow, the outing is a sin or a wrong, in the act of a greater sin, a greater betrayal, is, laughable.

 

In an affair...there is no vow, no contract, no promise, no code so you get what you get as far as a persons individual decisions and needs at the time. Which is exactly what an affair is all about.

[ian1966]

Just curious Realist3, are you still cheating?

I only ask this as it seems to me that if you are you may have an ingrained hatred of those that out their AP to their AP's H....

No disrespect intended :-)

[2sure]

If AP was continuing to call you, if you felt like you were not going to be able to not break NC yourself, or if BS insists on outing it...

 

All good reasons. Sometimes, you have to burn the bridge. An affair can be a very very hard ...habit, for lack of a better word, to break for either partner. A BS actually is a help with that.