Dating to friends then back again?

[gothicrose]

That makes sense.

 

I just can't work out whether he's genuinely confused about his feelings, or just trying desperately to get rid of me so will say anything that he thinks I might want to hear.

 

I had sent him a message this morning asking him to meet me at lunch again, as my mobile phone isn't working so he can't text me - and I didn't know if he was still planning on turning up tonight. Just logged into my emails for the first time today and found he emailed me back straight away this morning, saying "can't meet you lunchtime but will be there 2nite".

 

Then burst out crying as he's being so reliable and patient and I'm being a PITA

 

I don't even know whether he wants to see me tonight and would be ok just chatting about general, light hearted 'friend' stuff, or if he's expecting me to try and get answers to my questions - as originally when I asked him to meet me, it was to get answers and not just for a friendly catch up.

 

When he gets here later should I ask if he wants to stick to what we had hinted we'd talk about or would prefer to just keep it light hearted or just start chatting normally?

 

Oh this is difficult...I can see why people recommend NC now

[BC1980]

Oh this is difficult...I can see why people recommend NC now

 

Yeah, because what is the point to seeing him tonight? I can't see how this relationship would work at this point in time. Clearly, it seems dead, done, finished, whatever you want to say, right now. It's just crystal clear to me that you need to go NC right now, so both of you can sort out your feelings.

 

If you do see him tonight, definitely don't bring up any relationship talk or ask him to explain himself anymore. That is a black hole.

[gothicrose]

Ohh...I made it worse!

 

Really do need help this time and I will listen

 

He came round at 8 like he said, looked a little bit 'off' when he turned up and just took his shoes off and sat on the sofa, not speaking; so I assumed he was annoyed or feeling awkward at being here - which put me on the defensive. Instead of asking what was up, I ended up muttering under my breath that I didn't want him sitting there looking annoyed and then went into a bit of a rant about why he bothered coming round if he wasn't going to speak.

He told me he'd had a bad couple of days at work and was just stressed over that.

 

So anyway the conversation didn't go well.

I asked about what he had said and done last week and he decided to pick at my usage of the words 'last week', getting into a petty discussion about how he calls this Tuesday just gone, 'last week', then when I finally got him off that and continued asking what he was doing last week at his place, when he pulled me onto him on the bed and lay with me on top of him, holding me for an hour, pulling me down when I tried to get up, kissing me etc...he said he's always known he was stronger than people so has to stay calm when angry - so he was basically implying that he was so annoyed with me, that he pulled me onto him to stop him from getting too annoyed - but that doesn't explain why he laughed and joked and kissed me!?

 

He also said the following over the course of an hour:

 

I don't want to be in 'this' social situation with anyone and just can't be bothered with a relationship of any kind.

 

"I'm not particularly turned on by you any more. But I could be...if I let myself. The first time I saw you tonight I thought wow, as you looked amazing, but I control it".

 

"I kept trying with you for so long as I really thought there was something there, but you would ask me to come round, then not answer your door, I'd phone and knock and you wouldn't let me in...you treated me so badly (this was when we were officially together). You convinced me we could have a future and when I agreed, the minute we talked about moving in together, you backed off and started being awful to me."

 

I had told him the other week that I had slept with another ex 2 weeks ago (which is obviously while we have been split up) - I told him as I felt awful that I had effectively used my ex for 'just sex' and all of a sudden, he started bringing that up - he had been talking about how when I said a while back that maybe he wasn't fully over an ex of his (they split years ago and he's had lots of year-long relationships since then) and it made sense to him, I then said that he'd told me she cheated on him - and he snapped "so did you! the other week you slept with your ex! I don't get why you told me about that...was it to make me jealous, or to hurt me or what?".

I said we were split up so how is it cheating, and he said "but you say you love and want me, and then go and sleep with your ex. You are the only woman I've had sex with in over a year and that means something to me. How would you feel if I came here, told you I loved you and then went and slept with another ex of mine, then came back again and told you about it?"

I said I'd be heartbroken, and he muttered something like "yeah...well you never say that stuff do you?"

I then asked if he was bothered, and he said "no - I felt nothing. You've moved on - great, go away and carry on and leave me alone".

He said it so coldly and matter-of-fact, so I don't get why he bothered bringing it up?

 

Then there was just more of "leave me alone I want nothing more to do with you" followed immediately by when I asked why we can't keep in touch, hi saying "you can text but just don't get moody when I don't reply quick enough", then "I don't want a relationship".

 

Oh - and to illustrate his point that he doesn't want a relationship, he told me that the day I went to his place last week, he had not long got back from his trip away on a canal boat. He was coming through a lock near the mooring, and saw a woman who "was everything I could ever want in a woman - slim, the right age, blonde...we chatted as she undid the lock for me and waited for it to fill up, so 2 minutes max. She said she had just moved onto a canal boat on her own and was going for a coffee in town, but I just wasn't interested and we said goodbye after she agreed to close the lock after my boat had been through, and that was it".

 

I don't get why he told me that; he knew I'd be jealous

 

So anyway I know I need to back off, but can someone explain the things he said and did in this message? Please?

[gothicrose]

Just logged into my facebook and he has just replied to a message I sent last night (I'd asked whether he could just start from scratch and take things as they come)

 

His reply:

 

"No because I DON'T WANT TO BE WITH ANY BODY. You said yourself that I needed to heal so please please please give me that chance to heal and leave me alone. I know you are trying to help but at the moment you are doing far more harm than good."

 

Why is he saying leave him alone if yesterday he was saying all the other stuff about being confused? And only last week said the things - twice - about possibly still loving me?

[Simon Phoenix]

Leave him alone and go NC.

[gothicrose]

Simon, I appreciate what you're saying and the reason for it...

 

But I really just need an answer/guess as to why he said so many different things over the past 3.5 months since we split, and even since last Tuesday.

 

Forgot to mention in my first post today, that last night he also said he thought me asking him to come over and all this stuff is about control, and "you're trying to force me to love you...but I don't".

 

So as he said he thought he did last Tuesday, this Tuesday just gone said he wasn't sure, then last night said he likes me, is attracted to me etc but has mixed feelings about me and then said he doesn't love me, which is it?

[beyond]

What's the confusion here?

 

He has made it crystal clear over and over again that he doesn't want to be in a relationship with you and he doesn't love you.

 

Yes, he is attracted to you, would probably have sex with you if you offered it, but more than that....no.

 

Leave him alone.

[gothicrose]

Well like I said.

 

For 3.5 months he has been saying he doesn't see a future for us and at the exact same time, saying "but why can't I just go for it with you", "maybe I'm just being a coward and worrying about others' reactions too much", "I don't know if I'm madly in love with you or hate you", "there's something about you that keeps me coming back", etc., and then as I said last Tuesday he had told me in the morning he didn't have any feelings for me whatsoever (during a heated conversation over the phone) and then when I went to see him, I snapped that I wasn't deluded enough to think he's going to turn around and say he loves me, and he said "the thing is I'm not sure whether I might STILL be in love with you". He also earlier on that visit, when we were talking about whether he ever loved me, I had said it had only really been a few weeks he loved me and he said "no, longer than that" and then said "and I'm shooting myself in the foot here as you will keep holding it against me, but I think I might still be in love with you".

 

So why say that last week is he didn't mean it?

[BC1980]

So you didn't take my advice, and what I predicted came true. He is still confused, even more so it would seem, and you are still going round and round trying to decipher what he wants. Eventually, he is going to cut you off completely if you continue to be this frustrating.

 

Now, he has asked you nicely to leavs him alone with the Facebook message. Respect his wishes and do just that.

 

Lesson learned: the more you push someone into explaining/sharing their feelings, the more resistance you will get.

[gothicrose]

So you didn't take my advice, and what I predicted came true. He is still confused, even more so it would seem, and you are still going round and round trying to decipher what he wants. Eventually, he is going to cut you off completely if you continue to be this frustrating.

 

Now, he has asked you nicely to leavs him alone with the Facebook message. Respect his wishes and do just that.

 

Lesson learned: the more you push someone into explaining/sharing their feelings, the more resistance you will get.

 

Confused about what though do you think?

 

Trying not to clutch at straws here so need an honest answer/guess, do you think he might still have strongish feelings for me but either be scared/unready/unsure and needing to heal, or he's confused about what he wants in general but probably doesn't have discernable (argh spelling!) feelings for me any more?

 

I forgot to mention, he walked out last night after pacing around the room, running his hands through his hair repeatedly in a really scary kind of way, and then when he walked out I followed to close the gate after him, asked him to stop and let me say something, he did and I said it (just usual "why can't we keep in touch" stuff) and he pulled me towards him in like a bear hug type thing, pressed his (umm excited) crotch into me and then let go, went "argh" and started pacing, I tried to put my hand on his shoulder to comfort him and he pulled away a bit, then started kicking the wall 4 or 5 times, then screamed again and walked off. I shouted after hi asking why he'd pulled me towards him suddenly like that, and he said "affection, sex...it's what I need and what I crave..." then went "argh" again and walked off!

Afterwards was when I sent the facebook message to which he replied this morning.

 

So BC1980 - what do you think the extra part I've mentioned, meant? Why on earth would he act that way looking so distressed?

I've never seen anyone but him act that way, and that's how he reacts 9 times out of 10 that I question him.

 

Also - how long do I leave him for? He said just before he left that I could text him, as long as I don't get moody when he doesn't reply quickly enough...so could I get away with leaving him for a couple of weeks then maybe sending a 'hi' text?

I was thinking maybe just the occasional text then around the end of October maybe see how the land lies with regards to meeting for a catch up - is that too soon?

[beyond]

Leave him alone.

 

You sound so desperate and needy, turning up unexpectedly, continually asking him how he feels about you when he has told you nicely and not so nicely to go away.

 

If he wants to come back to you for the right reasons, then give him space to think that through. If he doesn't then at least you will have some self respect.

[BC1980]

He's just flat out confused about what he wants. Seems like part if him wants you (maybe just for sex), and the other part doesn't. I would not entertain a man like that. I haven't a clue what he wants, and its a waste if time to try to figure it out. Been there. Done that. Trust me when I say that no amount of asking, reasoning with him, dissecting his comments will ever make any of it clear.

 

Be wary of a man who is this confused. He is not worth your time. I was with a confused, wishy washy man for 3 years. Wish I had cut my losses sooner. I have been down this road. Please don't continue down this path any longer.

 

Do not contact him again. Tell him you need space right now and ask him not to contact you. I fear that if you just stop contacting him, he will contact you again pretty quickly. That is what happened to me. I had to be proactive and ask him to leave me alone. It's hard, but I think you need to do the same. You should be with a man who is 100 percent sure of you and not causing you this stress. It took me too long to realize that.

[Mariposa10]

There's nothing to analyze talk about here. Leave this man alone, please. Go out with your friends, start a new hobby.

 

I'm sorry, but he wants to be left alone, please respect that. This situation made me feel tired just by reading it. Maybe he'll look for you in the future, but right now you need to give him space, period.

[BC1980]

Agree with above. I understand the need for answers. It's natural to want to understand; we're wired that way, and it's a fault sometimes. In a way, we feel that we deserve an answer that is good enough for us, so we continue to hash it out, demand explanations, plead for one more talk, and do all sorts of mental gymnastics looking for the answer we want.

 

But it's a fruitless battle to take on. It's a black hole. Trust us when we say you are better off funneling your energy into something else. I have been there, and so many other people on this forum have been there. Have you seen how many threads have been started asking for advice on how to decode what someone's ex or partner is doing or saying? You are never going to get any type of satisfying answer.

[gothicrose]

So it's a complete lost cause? I mean me and him ever reconciling in the future...some people have chances but me and him don't?

[Mariposa10]

So it's a complete lost cause? I mean me and him ever reconciling in the future...some people have chances but me and him don't?

 

Not right now. Nobody knows the future. In this case we do know something. He wants to be left alone. If you don't leave him alone, you'll ruin any kind of chance you have right now. What you're doing is not attractive at all. It's such a turnoff.

 

Go out with your friends! Have some fun!

[gothicrose]

Ok, I confess.

 

This morning (UK time), I messaged him asking him to meet me at lunch again, so I could say "one last thing" (which really would be a rehash of everything I said last night, but this trying to get a proper answer - which as BC1980 said would be pointless). He replied "no I told you how busy and stressed I am".

 

So I text him again asking him to meet me tonight, for literally 10 minutes after he finishes his martial arts training (which finishes at 10pm and as he's up at 6am for work, silly time to come over really even for a few mins), so I could say one last thing then "I will leave you alone, I promise".

He replied "ok will come round after training. 10ish".

 

So am I right in thinking he's only agreed to this because I added the "then I will leave you alone" line and sees this as his only way to get rid of me...and not because he still cares a bit (even as a friend)?

 

And also..beware this is long, but this is what I just drafted and almost sent to him on facebook, after reading Mariposa's last messages and having a good, long cry:

 

"The fact you are so desperate to get rid of me that you will agree to come round again so I can say 'one more thing' just proves how much I have broken you. How many times have I said I just need to say one more thing and it's never enough is it.

I do have things to say but you don't need to hear it really, it won't make a difference. I suppose all I'm really doing is finding one more excuse each time to see you again.

 

I really can't work out whether I have feelings for you or if it is a control thing; not in the way you think, not trying to control you but just not wanting to relinquish control to someone else. My entire life, I've been judged for being too ugly, too skinny, too 'loose' down there after having kids, too unable to accept my ex cheating on me, too shy, too stupid...too ****ing everything. I've lived my entire life trying to keep my head down and not rock the boat, doing whatever anyone wanted of me in order to be accepted. Not stopping my dad because he was my dad and I had to please him, not telling anyone when every schoolmate I ever had, was bullying me.

When you tell someone you love them, you lose control. When you trust someone, you lose control. It's scary because then they know what you think and can take it all away from you. And it's what you did - I understand you needed to finish things, I really do. But I've lost control of the situation; as I said I didn't want to control you, but the very act of dumping someone means that you've taken control, I have no say in the matter and it hurts like hell.

 

I feel so stupid for being so upset about it - I think it's because I'm grieving the loss of a possibility of something, rather than an actual relationship.

We had nothing. It started off as a one night stand, you bottled it, I pestered you into a relationship and you tried your best to love me but just never could.

 

I was confused why you'd been saying so many positive things as well as negative, and it still really hurts that you said you thought you might still be in love with me last week - because when you said it my heart jumped a bit; even though I quickly corrected myself and told myself you were just saying it to get me out of your space...for a millisecond I felt excited and happy that you might love me and we could work if only I backed off a bit and we took things slowly. It's pathetic. The same thing happened when for 4 weeks solid you told me you didn't see a future for us, then on the last phone call before you went away you added dating and doing things properly as one of the options, where you hadn't before. It made me think that maybe you were considering the possibility again...and all I ever wanted was the possibility of you considering 'us' as an option in the future.

 

For what it's worth, I do need you to know how I saw things going from now on - the past few days when I've been asking you to come and see me and just see how things go; I hadn't planned obsessively but had a rough idea that I'd go back to my normal self and just text every now and again, say hi, have a brief chat etc and maybe a phone call once in a while (not weekly!). I reckoned maybe by the Xmas Fayre possibly, if we hadn't argued by then and just been getting on through text and stuff then maybe if you saw me, we might be able to have a bit of banter as you went past or something, maybe you'd still be attracted to me and I would to you, and maybe over the next 3-6 months you might be working your way towards being open towards the idea of meeting someone again (so this would be like March-June next year), I thought maybe if we were still getting on I'd ask if you fancied meeting up, if you agreed then we'd chat, get on, you'd go home happy and so would I, and then maybe feelings might develop - or not.

I never expected or wanted you to say...tomorrow....I love you, be with me. I wanted to just act normally and be friends primarily.

 

BUT at the same time, I've been worried that all these things you've said - the being confused about your feelings, everything...has just been you desperately trying to get rid of me. Trying everything - you told me to leave you alone and it didn't work. You told me you had/have feelings but were confused, in the hope I'd back off and move on myself eventually anyway, that didn't work. Then you 'messed with my head' me to get me to end things and set you free, I still didn't take the hint. You've been saying everything to try and placate me and get me to get the hell out of your life for good, but still I've been pestering, visiting your home and all sorts of crazy stuff. You're petrified that work will find out about all this and you'll either be laughed at for ever going near me or you will lose/risk your job. So you've felt like you couldn't get a restraining order on me or do anything to 'rile' me, in case I went loco and started telling everyone that you'd been seeing me - I wouldn't have, but don't blame you for thinking it.

 

I hate it that you say I have 'issues'; I hate being pitied and having allowances made for me because I'm broken. I don't feel like the past has affected me, but maybe I'm in denial as why else would I do the things I have?

 

But does it matter what you think really? Does it matter what the anyone else thinks? It shouldn't...I know I shouldn't care because it won't change anything. I've acted an idiot to put it lightly and shown myself up time and time again. And you? You feel sorry for me.

You feel this all reflects badly on you and you feel 'unkind' but what you did was for the best. I should have just acted as everyone else has when things have finished, retained my dignity and self respect, and bowed out gracefully rather than kicking it to pieces and making sure we never have a chance, if we ever had in the beginning.

 

Because we don't ever have a chance, do we. I've known that in the back of my mind all along but wanted to believe there was still a bit of hope.

 

But really; even if you decide in the future you'd like another relationship, you would never, ever look twice at me because not only have I acted like a complete loon and an argumentative cow, there are all the other issues in the way."

 

I stopped typing after that...bored myself. I saved it as a draft but is it a big mistake to get him to read it when he gets here, save me talking? I'd rather see his reaction in person as maybe I will have a clue as to whether I'm right and he really does want me out of his life for good or just 'for now', but is that message I wrote just really self indulgent?

[Mariposa10]

Oh my god! I hope I wasn't too harsh?! That was not my intention, but this is why I like this forum because people tell you the way things are, NOT the way you want them to be. I've created a thread where I talk about my problems and some people were really harsh, but I appreciate it. That has made me see things the way they really are. They have helped me a lot. Last weekend my ex and I talked on the phone and he acted a little bit like the way your ex acted. I felt so sad about it, I cried when I hung up. But that made me realize that I can't keep doing this to myself. I can't let him have all that power over me. You and I have the power to stop this mess.

 

I didn't read the entire letter you typed but I read most of it. If I were you, I wouldn't send it. If I were you, I would cancel seeing him tonight. It's not worth it. You just need to start moving on... Stop texting him, calling him. I've been able to stop doing that with my ex. Whenever you feel like texting him or calling him, call or text someone else.

[gothicrose]

Oh no, it made me cry because like I said in the letter I typed, I've kind of known all along that this is what he thinks of me/wants but just wanted to believe there was some hope in the future. So reading your posts Mariposa just confirmed what I was already thinking...even though others have said it - maybe I've finally wised up and started to see the light, hehe.

 

It's 8.11pm here and for the past half hour since I typed that letter out, I've been feeling tired and like I just want to go to bed. What is him coming here tonight going to achieve? He has it in his head that I'm just to say one last thing then he's going after ten minutes, he'll turn up looking sour faced and Ill have to struggle not to be upset about the fact he wants nothing more to do with me...

 

But a lot of times when he's been round here recently, he's said he's going to go home and I've asked him to stay just a minute longer so I can talk some more...in a way if he comes over later and I say my piece (along the lines of what I wrote in that letter) and then say I'm going to respect his decision, I would like an 'us' or at least to try in the future but need to do the NC thing for myself too, to heal and move on...and then he leaves without me asking him to stay just a little longer, I'll feel like I've made a tiny step towards regaining control of my emotions and the situation.

 

Is that stupid?

[Mariposa10]

Oh no, it made me cry because like I said in the letter I typed, I've kind of known all along that this is what he thinks of me/wants but just wanted to believe there was some hope in the future. So reading your posts Mariposa just confirmed what I was already thinking...even though others have said it - maybe I've finally wised up and started to see the light, hehe.

 

It's 8.11pm here and for the past half hour since I typed that letter out, I've been feeling tired and like I just want to go to bed. What is him coming here tonight going to achieve? He has it in his head that I'm just to say one last thing then he's going after ten minutes, he'll turn up looking sour faced and Ill have to struggle not to be upset about the fact he wants nothing more to do with me...

 

But a lot of times when he's been round here recently, he's said he's going to go home and I've asked him to stay just a minute longer so I can talk some more...in a way if he comes over later and I say my piece (along the lines of what I wrote in that letter) and then say I'm going to respect his decision, I would like an 'us' or at least to try in the future but need to do the NC thing for myself too, to heal and move on...and then he leaves without me asking him to stay just a little longer, I'll feel like I've made a tiny step towards regaining control of my emotions and the situation.

 

Is that stupid?

 

I don't think it's stupid. Just useless (I'm sorry) because he's annoyed. I'm sorry again, but I would probably be annoyed to. You need to let this guy breathe, is there a way you can hang out with friends right now?? Have some coffee/tea?? Whenever I felt like begging my ex to hang out with me I would instantly text a friend to hang out with. Please, stop all of this, the letter, the texting, the calling. Who knows, you might have a chance in the future, but right now you're only ruining that. Text a friend, call a friend!

 

That's my advice and what I would do....

[gothicrose]

I know...and you know what?

 

Every time he's been due over here for the last...I don't even know how many weeks, I've been pleased at first and then an hour or two before he's due over, I start having doubts and wanting to cancel, butterflies, feeling shaky, the lot.

 

But I like seeing him as I'm attracted to him and at least would get to speak to him again...so I always push those doubts to the back of my mind, let him come over; then it all goes horribly wrong.

 

It's just if I cancel..then I HAVE to leave him alone, go totally NC and not even LC! And I wont get to say the stuff in the letter, he'll carry on being annoyed and thinking I'm a pain. (or worse).

[gothicrose]

Ok would it really ruin any chance we might have had in future, if he comes over in 90 minutes and I say the stuff (or most of it) that I said in the letter?

 

As long as I back off after that then can it really do any harm?

 

If it really will then someone needs to say...because I'm literally on the fence at the moment.

[Mariposa10]

I know...and you know what?

 

Every time he's been due over here for the last...I don't even know how many weeks, I've been pleased at first and then an hour or two before he's due over, I start having doubts and wanting to cancel, butterflies, feeling shaky, the lot.

 

But I like seeing him as I'm attracted to him and at least would get to speak to him again...so I always push those doubts to the back of my mind, let him come over; then it all goes horribly wrong.

 

It's just if I cancel..then I HAVE to leave him alone, go totally NC and not even LC! And I wont get to say the stuff in the letter, he'll carry on being annoyed and thinking I'm a pain. (or worse).

 

If you leave him alone, he might forget how needy/clingy you were being at some point. Also, why do you ask him to meet you at your house?? That's like an invitation for sex. Why not at a coffee shop or something like that??

 

I know how you feel, I also wanted to see my ex's face all the time, that's normal.

 

You can always say, "you know what something has come up, maybe we can talk about this later on" you can cancel it, in a nice way, not dramatic. What you need is LESS drama, there's too much drama going on. And as we all have seen he doesn't like it. Put yourself in his shoes, would you want to talk to a girl who's always such a big deal about every single detail, with all this drama, etc???

 

Again, you can do whatever you want, at the end you'll be the one who will suffer the consequences, I'm just telling you what I would do.

[Mariposa10]

For your own sanity (even his!) and if you ever want to have a chance with him ever again, you need to stop this, right now, period. Btw, do you have friends?

[gothicrose]

Yes I do, but I have kids who are in bed right now so I can't go out.

 

So you really think (sorry to keep asking!) that if he came round tonight and I spent ten minutes saying stuff along the lines of what I said in the letter, then told him I'll be backing off from now on for my own sake as much as his, then let him go without 'creating' - and then left him alone from tomorrow onwards; he'd really think more badly of me than he would if I cancelled?