Cultures where it's acceptable to cheat

[fanine]

True acceptance and toleration aren't the same.

 

Yep it is sad. I could tell the whole way of thinking when I discovered the truth, by how my xMM reacted to me. He could really see problem with it all. His attitude was well when I am with you I am good to you, and we have a great time, so why should it matter what I do when we are not together? I was not supposed to get upset that he was married or had another woman. I was not supposed to be upset he was e,ailing another woman and saying the exact same things to her he was saying to me. But he was insanely jealous and god knows what his reaction would have been if I had strayed.

[MissBee]

Yep it is sad. I could tell the whole way of thinking when I discovered the truth, by how my xMM reacted to me. He could really see problem with it all. His attitude was well when I am with you I am good to you, and we have a great time, so why should it matter what I do when we are not together? I was not supposed to get upset that he was married or had another woman. I was not supposed to be upset he was e,ailing another woman and saying the exact same things to her he was saying to me. But he was insanely jealous and god knows what his reaction would have been if I had strayed.

 

My exAP was the same! Said something very similar and had the same attitude, although to my knowledge I was his only OW.

 

It's like, come on sir, the problem is lying and living a double life! THAT is the problem and what is unbecoming about the whole thing. The problem is you know it is wrong, as if I did it you would HATE it and be very hurt! If his gf was doing it too he'd hate it! My serial cheating dad would die if my mom decided to cheat on him too! So clearly the problem is you feel it's your right and place to amass as much "happiness" for yourself and everyone should be fine...but the same right isn't bestowed on others.

 

That's when you know it's a problem. When it's only okay for you to do and when others do it, it's a problem or if it is done to you it's a problem. My friend is from an African culture where polygamy is legal and women have sister wives....there are still patriarchal issues with this, but because this is a cultural norm it is done in an honorable fashion. There are no secrets. The elder wife has some say in things and the wives get to know each other, they live together most times, he must provide for them equally, they all have their allotted time, raise their kids together etc. This open nature makes the man accountable to these women and their families as without the secrecy everyone can see what he is doing and see if he is treating the women fairly.However, if he were to secretly have some other woman outside of this, it would be infidelity and cheating.

 

Cheating by the definition of the word involves pretense, duplicity, misrepresenting, bamboozling, being unfair etc. In no culture is this kind of behavior okay. People still engage in bad behavior yes, and always will, but the point is that people acknowledge it is bad behavior and their actions to hide and downplay reflect this conflict of knowing it isn't good behavior but still choosing to engage in it.

Edited August 23, 2013 by MissBee

[Owl]

So it seems to me in the cultures discussed so far...it's "acceptable" as long as you're not the one being cheated on.

 

The ones being betrayed don't like it/don't find it acceptable...but everyone else is ok with it???

 

I don't track with that.

[MissBee]

Thirdly. most living humans regardless of culture of origin do not sanction deception and cheating. The "Honor among thieves" philosophy is prevalent in all cultures. There may be corruption and cheating, but it is almost never accepted as part of the fabric of the culture. As the poster above said, perhaps it is acknowledged, but never fully embraced as a positive cultural trait.

 

 

I seriously doubt there is a single culture in the world where deception is embraced as a cultural value.

 

Yes! And this is the point...humans are humans and imperfect everywhere, but cultures have ideals and have things they think are not positive, cheating is one of them. It's something that happens and some cultural attitudes may be more or less lax about it or approach it differently, but no culture embraces cheating and betrayal as part of their cultural values.

[2sure]

Tolerating something that is happening to someone else, isn't cultural acceptance, it's indifference to others. Tolerating something begrudgingly because you can't change your circumstances isn't acceptance, it's defeat.

 

Plenty of that all over the world, not just regarding infidelity. If you take a look at the places that this is tolerated, they are the same places that are tolerating poverty and corruption. It's their normal, but not accepted in a healthy way.

 

I agree that some european countries have a somewhat more open sexual culture. Knowing about a spouses infidelity and not being bothered with it is totally and completely different than not knowing about it.

[fanine]

This is a very good post.

 

Secondly, I would like to add that the personal anecdote syndrome is often used in the forum to equate facts. IF a woman meets several Cuban men that cheat that does not mean all Cuban men are cheaters. Most cultures are not uniform. This is particularly true in Latin America which is a melting pot. There are many Cuban men that do not cheat.

 

Thirdly. most living humans regardless of culture of origin do not sanction deception and cheating. The "Honor among thieves" philosophy is prevalent in all cultures. There may be corruption and cheating, but it is almost never accepted as part of the fabric of the culture. As the poster above said, perhaps it is acknowledged, but never fully embraced as a positive cultural trait.

 

 

I seriously doubt there is a single culture in the world where deception is embraced as a cultural value.

 

I totally agree not all Cuban men cheat. I know some here who appear to be totally faithful. I guess there were two things that stood out for me though when in Cuba. The first was how many people around us had more than one partner. I used to get so confused who was what! Meeting one girlfriend one day and then another the next day. One day we went to look for a friend of my xMM. We had to go to four different houses to eventually find him as he had four women. It was just accepted. We met a Cuban woman on the plane over. She had a husband in the uk. She worked in the uk. We saw her later in Cuba. With her partner there, who is the father of her daughter. Quite happy for me to see them together. XMM's friends in the uk. Several I met early on with women they called their girlfriends. I then found out later on they also had wives. That is what started my suspicions about my xMM.

 

People would chat about these things in the open whereas I have never experienced such a thing in the uk. If people around me here were having affairs it seems they kept it far more private.

 

Secondly the whole friends and family covering up. I guess again from my experience it is a lot more behind closed doors in the uk. That people are more ashamed of it here. Though it doesn't stop them doing it! But the lies his family and friends participated in when we were in Cuba so my xMM could spend a few hours with his Other OW. It was incredible. I would be ashamed for my family and friends to know if I was married and cheating. It did not seem the case here.

 

I do emphasise I know not all Cubans are like this. But in general the attitude to fidelity, marriage and love is different to that in old anglo saxon England. I have seen this not just in my example but many others around me. I think mainly because of the machismo. I'm sure most of the women aren't happy with it, but they end up accepting it, as 'that is the way it is'

[Steadfast]

In Italy it's very acceptable to cheat.

 

Over-generalization. Like many of these post and on this topic overall.

 

Truth is, is isn't 'acceptable' to cheat anywhere where marriage vows are exchanged or where property is shared. That's most everywhere.

 

I've spent much time in Italy and cheating isn't accepted, in general (although the players would love the women to believe it!). A colleague of mine there swore his wife 'allowed' him a mistress, but I saw him running like a scared child from her one night after dinner. Not the first time...

 

More applicable is how one can exonerate themselves from it through Catholicism, which (used to) strongly discourage divorce. That's changing.

[Anna-Belle]

Yep true, I can see too his family also lied because they thought they were protecting me in some strange way. They knew if I knew I would be upset and would likely leave the MM. It was so odd as anyway I was in fact the OW, I thought he was separated. They knew I was the OW and then they were having to hide from me the fact there was another OW! Thing is though this OW there knew full well about me and the wife, but it did not seem to bother her at all.

 

So it seems to be your view on infidelity as wrong which caused them to lie rather than their view.

[2sure]

So it seems to be your view on infidelity as wrong which caused them to lie rather than their view.

 

If they thought there was nothing wrong with it, they wouldn't have lied. They knew there was, so they did.

 

" They thought they were protecting me". Clearly they thought thought they were protecting her from something .

 

"They knew if I knew I would be upset and would likely leave MM"

 

Uh yeah, because that's what they would do. Because it makes sense. Because its wrong to them , but tolerated, not accepted.

[Owl]

So it seems to be your view on infidelity as wrong which caused them to lie rather than their view.

 

OMG...so you're saying that clearly it's her view on infidelity that's "wrong"...because her MM and friends knew that if she knew he was cheating she would have ended the relationship???

 

How about...if he'd have been honest and up front in the first place...both her and his wife would have had the option to choose whether or not to be in a relationship with him based on ALL the facts...not based on his lies and deception?

 

She didn't force him to cheat...nor did she force him to lie. He could have been honest with everyone and seen where that would lead...it was his choice to cheat, AND to lie to everyone involved.

[Owl]

If they thought there was nothing wrong with it, they wouldn't have lied. They knew there was, so they did.

 

" They thought they were protecting me". Clearly they thought thought they were protecting her from something .

 

"They knew if I knew I would be upset and would likely leave MM"

 

Uh yeah, because that's what they would do. Because it makes sense. Because its wrong to them , but tolerated, not accepted.

 

Exactly. They wouldn't have lied to her, nor would they have lied to his wife.

 

If it was accepted...everyone would be aware, and no one would care. There'd be no need for deception or lies of ommission.

[fanine]

Cuba has been a communist country for over 50 years and the culture was fractured in the early 1960s when most of the upper and mid upper class fled the country. If you sample these Cubans in Miami you may find a completely different cultural scenario.

 

When the Russians left Cuba after the fall of communism the Cuban economy crashed and many young Cuban females became prostitutes (called jineteras on the island) to serve the sexual needs of European tourists. That does not mean that the Cuban culture embraces prostitution, but nevertheless, it is accepted.

 

Here is a review from Trip Advisor:

 

 

 

Too many jineteras - Review of H10 Habana Panorama, Havana, Cuba - TripAdvisor

 

These are not Miami Cubans. We are in the UK. The majority I have met here got to Europe by marrying a European woman. They met european women in cuba and then moved here once they were married. Most of them are now separated. There is not the Hispanic culture here at all. Okay you can find any possible nationality in London, but there is not the Cuban community here that you find in America..

 

I have read a great deal about Cuba, and also a learnt a great deal about the country as well while visiting. I have talked to Cuban women here about the issue of infidelity. One Cuban female friend here in her late 40s told me she never dates Cuban men any more. She says they are the best lovers, in the sense they treat you like a queen when you are with them. But it was the infidelity she could not cope with in the end. But as I said before it is not all Cuban men. But from my experience it is just far more acceptable in their culture to have more than one partner at a time...

[fanine]

The thread is basically another justification or rationalization process to justify ongoing cheating.

 

I don't know any culture that publicly embraces cheating. Some individuals may embrace cheating, but most actually rationalize. Very few people in the world will proudly call themselves cheaters-------------there is always a twist or a mitigating issue.

 

Well certainly the guys I met here had no problem with the fact that all their friends knew they had women on the side. They would take their girlfriends out in the group while the wife was at home with the kids...a while back I found these interesting articles by an American journalist living in Cuba. It pretty much sums up the impression I got from there

 

Those Faithful Cubans | Here is Havana

 

Ask Conner: Havana's Gringa love doctor  | Love, romance and marriage in Cuba | Cuba Absolutely

[Owl]

Well certainly the guys I met here had no problem with the fact that all their friends knew they had women on the side. They would take their girlfriends out in the group while the wife was at home with the kids...a while back I found these interesting articles by an American journalist living in Cuba. It pretty much sums up the impression I got from there

 

Those Faithful Cubans | Here is Havana

 

Ask Conner: Havana's Gringa love doctor* | Love, romance and marriage in Cuba | Cuba Absolutely

 

No surprise on the guys not caring.

 

But that's only part of the culture.

 

How do the wives and girlfriends feel? They're happy with it?

 

How would the guys feel if their women did the same? Also happy with it?

[fanine]

Exactly. They wouldn't have lied to her, nor would they have lied to his wife.

 

If it was accepted...everyone would be aware, and no one would care. There'd be no need for deception or lies of ommission.

 

But the fact in my complicated situation is that the wife and I are English. The other OW was not, the one in Cuba. She knew the full truth. Us two did not.

 

She knew he was married, she knew I was his girlfriend. The last time we went to visit we even met though I did not know who she was at the time. My xMM made an excuse one night he had to attend a religious ceremony so would not be back until the morning (I believed this as I know in Santeria you sometimes have to do these things) he instead spent the night at her house. Though I did find out later he told the woman in Cuba he was only with me for my money and that I was old and desperate (I am neither of these things by the way!). Once he had got everything he needed from me he would dump me. She was quite happy with this as she believed he was getting money that he could give to her...

[fanine]

No surprise on the guys not caring.

 

But that's only part of the culture.

 

How do the wives and girlfriends feel? They're happy with it?

 

How would the guys feel if their women did the same? Also happy with it?

 

 

The ones here yes they do care when they find out, they are English, Italian etc. but I did find they tolerated it more in Cuba. Part of that is economical. I'm sure most of them don't like being cheated on. But machismo is so great there. The women are trapped in a sense. They do not have the freedom we have in america or europe. I met many grown ups with half brothers and sisters all over the place.

 

It is strange to understand. I am still getting my head around it all, what I have seen, what I have heard.

[Owl]

The ones here yes they do care when they find out, they are English, Italian etc. but I did find they tolerated it more in Cuba. Part of that is economical. I'm sure most of them don't like being cheated on. But machismo is so great there. The women are trapped in a sense. They do not have the freedom we have in america or europe. I met many grown ups with half brothers and sisters all over the place.

 

It is strange to understand. I am still getting my head around it all, what I have seen, what I have heard.

 

I've been in Mexico, and Central and South America.

 

I understand what you mean about machismo being a key factor in this.

 

What that means is that the men feel it's ok to cheat on their women. The women have no choice to accept it, whether or not they like it...they can't do anything about it. The women also do not have the same option, because the men will not tolerate the women conducting the same behavior.

 

That's not the same as a culture that considers infidelity acceptable. That's a culture that believes that infidelity is acceptable for the entire culture.

[fanine]

I've been in Mexico, and Central and South America.

 

I understand what you mean about machismo being a key factor in this.

 

What that means is that the men feel it's ok to cheat on their women. The women have no choice to accept it, whether or not they like it...they can't do anything about it. The women also do not have the same option, because the men will not tolerate the women conducting the same behavior.

 

That's not the same as a culture that considers infidelity acceptable. That's a culture that believes that infidelity is acceptable for the entire culture.

 

Yes you are right. I guess I should have worded it different as in asking about 'cultures were cheating is acceptable' and instead said cultures where it is acceptable for men to cheat. It is a complicated topic, and certainly I do find it sad that this still happens in this day and age. I can see the women are powerless in many ways. I can see by my xMM's reaction when the truth came out, what his attitude to it all was. He had no idea how much he had hurt me with all the deceit and lies. He could not see it was a problem. He basically wanted me to accept the situation for what it was.

[2sure]

That's another good point regarding cultures in which infidelity is tolerated, the same places women are powerless.

[fanine]

The same can be said about the Jineteras in Havana. They are accepted, however, that is not part of the culture.

 

 

Furthermore Cuba is a fusion of people that came from Spain, the Canary Islands, Corsica, and Africa. There is a huge sizable African population which may be completely different from Cubans that are of Spanish ancestry.

 

There is also a socioeconomic demarcation among the elite Cubans that left the island in the early 60s versus those that were born during the communist regime.

 

Furthermore, your sample of Cubans is quite small. What your friend said about Cubans can be said about many men in many countries. Except the Jews who are reported to be good faithful husbands.:laugh:

 

Did you see the two links I posted for you. Believe me, maybe I have had a sheltered life. But I am in my forties, and living in a huge cosmopolitan city....Okay my sample is quite small, but the behaviour was far beyond anything I have experienced. Those two links pretty much do describe what I saw and are written by an American who has lived there for a while. I was married to an Italian. I certainly do not generalise my views on Italian men from my marriage.

 

The cuban men here are just far more open with it all. I have not met any other groups of men in the past who will happily let everyone meet their OW, let their family meet them. That is why I was hood winked for so long. I had no idea they were joining in with the lies....

 

Ask missbee as well. She appears to come from a culture where machismo is very much in force still.

 

That is why though I have looked into it a great deal. I have talked to Cuban women. I'm a journalist and for a while it did become my main topic of research. Just so I could understand the situation I had found myself in.

[Owl]

That's another good point regarding cultures in which infidelity is tolerated, the same places women are powerless.

 

Good point. The Latin-American cultures where infidelity seems prevelant are the ones with the strong "machismo", male-oriented/dominated societies. And in those, the infidelity is only acceptable amongst the males.

 

I've not heard/seen much about infidelity being acceptable in cultures where the power dynamic is more evenly spread between the sexes.

[Anna-Belle]

Yep true, I can see too his family also lied because they thought they were protecting me in some strange way. They knew if I knew I would be upset and would likely leave the MM. It was so odd as anyway I was in fact the OW, I thought he was separated. They knew I was the OW and then they were having to hide from me the fact there was another OW! Thing is though this OW there knew full well about me and the wife, but it did not seem to bother her at all.

 

If it was accepted...everyone would be aware, and no one would care. There'd be no need for deception or lies of ommission.

 

Everyone was aware and noone did care except fanine who was from a different culture. Cultural clash.

[2sure]

Right, not on this particular planet.

[Owl]

Everyone was aware and noone did care except fanine who was from a different culture. Cultural clash.

 

Fair enough.

 

Like most folks, I prefer my own culture and it's mores and viewpoints.

 

But...leave others to their otherness.

[fanine]

I saw the links, but communist Cuba is poor. Infidelity among the poor is often more open and blatant, I agree. BUt, I can tell you those male Cubans would rather die than to be the victim of infidelity by a woman. So infidelity is not culturally acceptable.

 

Deceit is never accepted culturally even if it happens. No culture in the planet is proud to cheat.

 

I understand that. A culture will not be proud of it. But it is something that is open and seen as fairly normal, particularly for men. I guess it is just tolerated far more, rather than being acceptable.

 

my xMM found out when we were there he had 2 half brothers he had never met. He is 35. His cousin had 2 girlfriends, his godfather 4 when we were there. His cousin had a half sister via an affair who was part of the family. Just a very different culture.

 

It is a different attitude to infidelity. With many of the Cubans here, they have carried on acting like they did, and saw back home. Hence the number of ex wives I have spoken to of Cuban men here. All of them european. Their main issue has been, he seemed to think he was still in Cuba. The women here were in a better position to kick them to the kerb I agree. But many of the Cuban men here do not see it is an issue to have an OW. They flaunt it to their friends. In my culture sure people have had affairs from the year dot. But generally it is a lot more secret.