What the Church says about homosexuality

[loveregardless]

I say that things are my opinion when they are opinions. I say things are not real when they are not real. Your defintion of reality is completely determined by your faith, mine is not, mine is determined by what knowledge can be acquired and what little we as humans can possibly comprehend.

 

And in your answer you have PROVED MY POINT. You don't have any answers and you dismiss and discount and information, FACTUAL INFORMATION, which disagrees with your reality. Call me limited again, I think it rather amusing now.

[tiki]

Yeah the question just stimulated my brain a little bit. Stimulation is good.

 

I've never thought to ask that question.

[loveregardless]

stimulation is wonderful tiki...thinking is wonderful...asking questions is wonderful...

 

Wandering does not mean you are lost. Searching does not mean you are lost.

Thinking you "know" anything that cannot possibly be "known" is being lost. As it is quite obvious that those of us who belive that the world is only a few thousand years old and that Neandrathals and other prehuman species never existed, only because it disagrees with their "reality" are lost.

[Moose]

So, are you saying that Timothy McVeigh is up in heaven too, because Jesus paid for our sins? If there is no sin greater than the next, then why did God gives the 10 commandments? Why don't we all do whatever the heck we want?

 

I'm not trying to give you a hard time Moose, I just don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

I know you aren't, I welcome your questions. If Timothy McVeigh, ( Thanks for the correct spelling Matilda ), accepted Christ as his personal saviour, then yes, he's in heaven according to the Scriptures, and what I believe.

 

The 10 commandments where put in place and was expected to be followed by those who believe in God before the total solution, ( Jesus Christ ), could be made available for us. I don't know what all had to take place before Christ could come, but I know that there were a lot of prophesies that had to be fulfilled so that all would know without a doubt that Christ is the Son of God.

 

We can do whatever the heck we want. If you ask Christ into your heart, accepting Him as your saviour, you wouldn't want to do whatever you wanted since you'd know you'd be adding to His suffering. It doesn't mean that we still aren't adding to it because we sin whether we know we sin or not. Knowing Christ you would automatically steer away from any doing more damage.

[Moose]

Originally posted by loveregardless

I say that things are my opinion when they are opinions. I say things are not real when they are not real. Your defintion of reality is completely determined by your faith, mine is not, mine is determined by what knowledge can be acquired and what little we as humans can possibly comprehend.

 

And in your answer you have PROVED MY POINT. You don't have any answers and you dismiss and discount and information, FACTUAL INFORMATION, which disagrees with your reality. Call me limited again, I think it rather amusing now.

 

Factual information again huh? You keep on believing that you're all that, and all knowing. I hope it works out good for you, and all the others.....so as not to single you out again.

 

One thing you'll never comprehend, ( Obviously ), is the true meaning of Faith, this is your loss, and my gain.

[loveregardless]

I just can't resist. Tell me how old the earth is. Tell me that the scientific proof or these species existence is wrong, tell me that carbon dating is wrong...explain the scientific evidence of dinosaurs to me...I would love to know the history of the world according to you?!

 

I THINK I'M ALL THAT BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE THAT GOD IS A LIMITED MALE DIETY WITH A SUPERIORITY COMPLEX AND HUMAN FLAWS?

 

You are scared of me Moose, because you know that I am not just some stupid 19 year old who has no idea what she is talking about and yet that is the only argument you have against me. You are scared because I make you look silly. And you are scared because you know that I DO have a point and because I make you think about what you believe as apposed to just drifting along without question.

 

I have EXTREME FAITH. But my faith is based on REALITY, not on fairy tales.

[bluechocolate]

The Christian Scriptures, in their original Greek do not contain any clear references to consensual homosexuality within a committed relationship, and certainly do not contain any unambiguous condemnation of gay and lesbian sexual activity and the man himself, Jesus, said absolutely nothing about homosexuality.

[quankanne]

going back to Hokey's original comment, about church teachings and homosexuality: the way my catechists put it to me was like this -- love the sinner, hate the sin. Which falls in line with Moose's comment about God not loving one person over another, no matter how great that person's sin may be.

 

I believe that to Him, a soul is priceless and cherished, hence God taking form of man and coming to earth as Jesus so that he could save us from sin ... which sets the tone for us to accept people even as we condemn wrongful behavior.

 

LR, you've spent a lot of energy on what feels to me is bashing a person's choice of belief simply because you just don't "get" it. Furthermore, you expect readers to jump on the bandwagon when you tell them they should "desire the truth as much as I do."

 

With all due respect, I think we should agree to disagree about religious beliefs people hold. Because in our own individual ways, we each have found a system that works for us, something that gets us closer to God in a way we are secure with, and that should be respected, IMHO. Just because Moose doesn't express his Christian belief in the same manner that I do, nor just because a non-believer doesn't have the same view of God that I do, doesn't make either of them wrong. Nor does it make me right. The way I see it, all this dialogue about faith and religion and spirituality and belief -- even non-belief -- bring about an inner conversion simply because we're thinking about these issues. We don't have to jump ship or change religious belief to find enlightment!

[loveregardless]

as long as my society is affected by others beliefs I will continue to tell others to jump on the quest for knowledge bandwagon. As long as I live in a world that has been irreparably affected by the creation and spreading of this religion I will speak out about the "truth" of it. As long as people continue to use their definition of God to excuse their behavior or to judge others I will be angry about it. I do not bash anyones beliefs, I argue against things that make no sense and that strangley enough, have factual information which disagrees with them. I protest to the mindset and thinking patterns of our society and the way that Christianity has sought to define everyones spitirtualty for them. And I have a huge problem with someone telling me that a fact is not true because it disagrees with their version of "reality".

[Moose]

Originally posted by loveregardless

I just can't resist. Tell me how old the earth is. Tell me that the scientific proof or these species existence is wrong, tell me that carbon dating is wrong...explain the scientific evidence of dinosaurs to me...I would love to know the history of the world according to you?!

 

I can't tell you how old the Earth is, I wasn't here when God created it. Your scientific proof, and your carbon dating, the scientific evidence of dinosaurs and the likes are all subject to human error. There isn't any evidence that a man can place in front of me to convince me other than what I find to be truth in Scripture.

 

You might be fascinated to know that dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible. They were called, "tanniyns, behemoths, and Leviathan"......as far as your Neandrathals, I'd have to do some research on that one....but I don't believe we came from apes or neandrathals, or anything like that.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by loveregardless

if you are saying confused face about my question, seriously consider all of the other "holes" in the theory as well...there is so so so much more information out there. There are so many other theories and philophies and teachers who have something just as valuable if not more valuable to teach us than Christianity alone ever could. All I'm asking is that you think about it. Think about these things...think about how much just does not make sense in the bible...there is knowledge to be found. There are at least some theories that can attempt to shoot for answers. But don't just believe something because you are comfortable with it, believe it because it really makes sense! Christianity does not make sense. All I want is for everyone to desire the truth as much as I do. I don't want anyone living under the cloak of a dogmatic facade...I want people to recapture their spirituality from the confines of their restrictive religions...that's freedom...thats open mindedness, that's free thought... and that is all I am ever trying to say.

 

Just because Christianity does not make sense to you, does not mean that it doesn't make sense to others. Much of it makes sense even to me. Truth is subjective. People capture their spirituality in many ways -- including within the tenets of a structured religion. Organized religion does not negate spirituality.

 

I thought I was following your line of thought, but it sounds (and perhaps you don't mean to) like you believe your way is the only way and thatyou think anyone who chooses a different path is somehow less informed or intelligent than you, or somehow 'wrong' for following their own path?

 

At one time when I was searching for "answers" I thought that people were bound by their beliefs - almost in a religious prison of mis-information. As I progressed in my research about Christianity, spiritualism, various church doctrines, etc. I found that contrary to how fundamental christians are portrayed in the news and Hollywood, etc. - they are smart, well-informed people who are also full of questions and searching for answers, all the while worshipping the same God and asking for God's forgiveness for the same sins. None (well a few) of the people I ran into were self-righteous, but that is not necessarily a religious-flaw, it's a character flaw in the individual or the specific church, not the faith itself. I understand the desire and direction to spread the word so that others can find salvation. It's an honest and positive desire. Like some married people who want to fix up their single friends so that they can hopefully find someone and be a 'blissful couple' too!

 

Their beliefs actually give them more spiritual freedom than living without structure or tradition. Ties of love that bind one to a God are not the same as chains of bondage that keep one tied a tradition they don't understand and only fear.

[loveregardless]

thatyou think anyone who chooses a different path is somehow less informed or intelligent than you

I have a huge problem with Christianity. I don't know why this isn't obvious to everyone. And I have NEVER said that I am more intelligent than anyone else. I have a problem with the majority of the world having been limited to the Christian definition of God because of their desire to "spread the word". I have a problem with the manner in which they went about asserting their dominance over every other religion in the world. I have a problem with anyone portaying an image of a diety of any sex, race or species that is judgmental. I have a problem with the fact the Chritians not only destroyed knowledge in the past that disagreed with them, but that people are still DENOUNCING THE EXISTENCE OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE because it disagrees with them. I have a problem with people trying to tell anyone that a particular action is "sinful" and somehow lessens their "goodness" and that they are UNWORTHY of some sort of otherworldy "present". I have a problem with Christianity because it has changed our world, our spirituality, our government, and our thinking patterns as HUMAN BEINGS, why does that not make sense to anyone else?

[Pocky]

as far as your Neandrathals, I'd have to do some research on that one....but I don't believe we came from apes or neandrathals, or anything like that.

 

What are the requirements necessary to be considered human and created in the image of God? If Neanderthals are not of the same species as us, what are they?

[Moose]

LR, I'm not scared of you....you're like a little kitten to me, so loveable! Your age isn't an issue either. My 16 year old can hold a much more interesting conversation, AND, remain subjective which is more to say than you can.

 

Your way of thinking and gathering information for what you're going to choose to believe is fine if that's what you want. As for the rest of us, we choose a different path.

 

You can be the activist you want to be in your own neighborhood. Write a book or something....but for me, I'm all for allowing others to take what they want and use it, or lose it. No biggy for me.

 

Your beliefs are just that, yours. When you blurt out absolutes the way you do, you're calling the rest of us wrong. There are others that do that too.....bur for you to say that I'm scared because you're intellegent, and young is just silly. I don't fear you or any other man or woman, plain and simple.

 

Yeah, I do think you're young and intellegent, but I also think you're closed minded, and hate to be told to hush up, we don't want/need to hear it.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by loveregardless

as long as my society is affected by others beliefs I will continue to tell others to jump on the quest for knowledge bandwagon. As long as I live in a world that has been irreparably affected by the creation and spreading of this religion I will speak out about the "truth" of it. As long as people continue to use their definition of God to excuse their behavior or to judge others I will be angry about it. I do not bash anyones beliefs, I argue against things that make no sense and that strangley enough, have factual information which disagrees with them. I protest to the mindset and thinking patterns of our society and the way that Christianity has sought to define everyones spitirtualty for them. And I have a huge problem with someone telling me that a fact is not true because it disagrees with their version of "reality".

 

That is EXACTLY what many Christians are doing. They are not stupid, they don't have all the answers, but they believe as strongly as do you. Their world has been irreparable affected by non-believers who go out and spread corruption with their "facts" which can actually co-exist with Christian beliefs.

 

They argue against things that make no sense. You use your definition of God to excuse your behavior and judge others too!

 

Christians know that the entirety of the creation or the earth or the social evolution of man is not contained within the scriptures. God may have chosen to not tell them everything -- maybe there exists a need-to-know basis for His teachings too. They know that sometimes the scriptures do not contain enough information to back up their belief, so they choose faith.

 

 

----------------------------

From Quank: ...love the sinner, hate the sin. Which falls in line with Moose's comment about God not loving one person over another, no matter how great that person's sin may be.

 

I believe that to Him, a soul is priceless and cherished, hence God taking form of man and coming to earth as Jesus so that he could save us from sin ... which sets the tone for us to accept people even as we condemn wrongful behavior.

 

This is similar to the messages I've heard in several non-catholic churches! I like the way it is designed because it does give people a lot of freedom and a lot less guilt about their own behavior, and accepting the behavior of others. They don't have to feel differently about their gay friends because of some misinterpreted "rule" and they don't have to feel guilty toward God because they do accept their gay friends. Sin is not a competition. No "My sin is not as bad as yours so I can feel less guilt".

 

Sin is not social law. Murderers may get life in prison and car thieves may get a year, but the stealing of a life or the stealing of an automobile are the same to God -- is that fairly accurate a analogy?

[quankanne]

I have a huge problem with Christianity. I don't know why this isn't obvious to everyone

 

oh, believe me, we see it ... and you've eloquently expressed just why, in your way of seeing it, that problem exists. And that's cool.

 

what's NOT cool is having someone bash over another person's head why he or she is wrong for following his own beliefs. you get so caught up in the emotion of your argument -- which has valid points -- that you seemingly refuse to open yourself up to the idea that we're each entitled to our own beliefs.

 

I think once you grasp the concept of "live and let live," you'll see much more of a free exchange of ideas that could lead someone to a spiritual epiphany, rather than just waving a red flag in front of others, challenging them because you don't agree with them.

[Moose]

Sin is not social law. Murderers may get life in prison and car thieves may get a year, but the stealing of a life or the stealing of an automobile are the same to God -- is that fairly accurate a analogy?

 

Absolutley.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by loveregardless

I have a problem with Christianity because it has changed our world, our spirituality, our government, and our thinking patterns as HUMAN BEINGS, why does that not make sense to anyone else?

 

So, you have a problem with all organized religions because of their impact on the world?

 

I believe that evolution is closest to explaining the development and progress of humankind. There are many things that impact social change -- religion is only one of them.

 

You say Christianity has changed our world, spirituality, government, and thinking patterns (I'm especially interested in what you mean about "thinking patterns") but has changed them from what? What do you think humankind and the world would be like had no religion ever existed? What do you think would happen if all religious practices were abolished? Or what would you put in their place?

 

I'm trying to clarify and understand your point-of-view, not harass you.

[savethedrama4allama]

Originally posted by Moose

It's against God's intentions because yes, two men, or two women cannot procreate. Also, God made Woman from Man to illustrate the relation of, "Belonging", to each other. No, your marriage isn't a sin because you choose not to have children, if God wanted you to have a child, trust me, no birth control could or would stand in His way. Masterbation, birth control being a sin? These are good questions. Men have spilled their seed on the ground in biblical times to prevent birth, but I never heard or read anything about masterbation unless you want to catagorize that under something else. That doesn't mean they are or aren't sin. I don't know for sure. I do know that I do both just like most humans do.

 

 

Moose, thank you for the explanation of your viewpoint.

[loveregardless]

all religions have not chosen to travel all over the world spreading their religion, thus their impact is not near that as the Christians. I have no problem with the faith if it had been kept to themselves and not been forced on others. I have a problem with it's effect on the world and the fact that it WAS forced on others. I do not have a problem with "religions", all I ever said is that they are all man made...and so one man mad religon is no better than another, and certianly no one religion needed to be forced upon anyone of other belief systems and cultures.

 

The only person I argue with is Moose because he tries to combat ME with every statement I make and BASH me and others with his scriptural explanation for everything. If he doesn't want to argue with me about it, perhaps he should stop the argument from happening in the first place by not telling people that his truth is THE TRUTH. The last argument we got into was because Moi, Dyer and I made statements about Divine acceptance of homosexuality and Moose came in and said that we were all "close", but then proceeded to tell us what the CLOSER or CORRECT answer was, but tagged on a "in my opinion" after his "close". This argument was just a continuation of yesterdays argument. And yesterdays argument was a valid and legitamite discussion where I was told AGAIN that I am TOO YOUNG to know what I am talking about. I was "nice" and noncombative as I could be in the beginning, but as long as he or any Christian is going to shove their version of truth down other peoples throats in every discussion, I am going to continue to refute them.

 

But you are right Quank, I do need to live and let live, I am trying to work on that right now. I do get very worked up, so to speak, about this topic...but I just don't want others to be turned away from spirituality, as so many I know have been, because of their disdain for the limited views of Christianity. I try to tell them that there is another way, that there are other theories, that there is some form of truth worth seeking for...because losing faith because of contempt for a particular religion is absolutely beyond sad.

[tiki]

LR, do your parents go to church? I'm assuming you too did as a child?

[quankanne]

What are the requirements necessary to be considered human and created in the image of God? If Neanderthals are not of the same species as us, what are they?

 

only God knows ... and I'm not trying to be faceticious here!

 

my question is along that same vein as Pockey's -- if Adam and Eve were the first people, according to the Bible, and Cane and Abel the First Kids, where did their spouses come from? Thinking of this in a linear descent sort of way, mind you. I've also heard that Adam's first wife was a woman named ... Lillith, I think was the name ... what's up with that?

 

the only theory I've come up with that makes sense is that Adam and Eve might have been the first to receive souls. But that would leave out all other creation of men up to that point, because as Catholics, we're taught the one soul = one person concept, that every human has a soul. No sharing through reincarnation or anything like that, just one to one.

 

the Bible, for all it's beauty, was the greatest attempt by very limited-thinking men to put into words the supernatural being of God. We fall short trying to explain him or his doings. there's a story about St. Augustine, who was struggling to understand God and the magnitude of His creation. But, his human mind couldn't grasp it.

 

one day while out walking along a beach, Augustine came across a little boy who was trying to put the ocean into the ground, and Augustine asked him what he was doing. "I am trying to pour the ocean into this hole," the child told him. That's impossible, Augustine told him. And the boy, who was an angel in disguise, told him that it was much easier for him to put the ocean into the hole than it was for man to understand the mystery of God. (from "Reaching Out in Love," by Mother Teresa)

[Matilda]

Thanks Moose, and quankanne, for your explanations. I see what Moose was getting at now.

[loveregardless]

My mother still does and she told me day before yesterday that "new age" was "the devil."

My father doesn't go anymore because he has never believed very much either, he always took them more as moral teachings meant NOT to be taken literally, just as I did.

I went for 13 years or so...I was a very good little Biblical student, I memorized all the versus, I learned all the teachings, I sang in the cantatas, I worked in childrens church...I was a good little soldier, but I never believed in my heart, it just never made any sense to me. And then I realized when I was very young, that I was judging my Hindu friends, calling them sinners, and telling them I didn't want them to go to "hell" because they weren't Christian ...and they told me about their religion. It just never made sense to me...what if they had never moved here? What if I had never told them and they never heard? Why would God send them to hell? They were good people with higher morals than ANY family I have ever come into contact with in this country...this is what got the wheels turning. This is where it all began. And you know what, they never ONCE tried to convert me, they NEVER ONCE told me I was wrong, they NEVER ONCE judged me. That is the example that changed my life. That is true spirituality...and it was beautiful, and finally...everything made a lot more sense to me. These were the same people that my Christian family had called dot heads and devil worshiping pagans. Very sad.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Matilda

Thanks Moose, and quankanne, for your explanations. I see what Moose was getting at now.

 

You are all very welcome.