Fair is fair

[oldshirt]

Silly silly I know but here it goes.

 

We do not get the luxury of holding our loved ones hostage

Its clear the OP is of the mind set that I find troubling....If someone keeps bringing up someones past regressions, the relationship will NOT flourish. Its pouring old spite on a wound. I recommend that the OP stop throwing stones and start fresh and accept that the person he supposedly "loves" UNCONDITIONALLY be granted the right to make mistakes, the right to change in life and the right to be treated with respect. Unless one is a saint we each as humans have skeletons in our closets ... No one is above errors or near perfection.

 

For starters, other than your own babies, no one loves anyone 'unconditionally' ever. It's all very conditional. Unconditional love is a romantic notion that has no basis in reality.

 

And I would agree with you if she had been open and honest about her beliefs and attitudes and values and mores on sexuality from the beginning and he had chosen to continue to date and develop a lover for her anyway.

 

But that was not the case at all. She intentionally lied to his face and intentionally lied about who and what she was and then maintained that fraud and deceptions for many years.

 

He was not falling in love with HER. He was falling in love with the inaccurate and fraudulent façade that she was presenting to him.

[Tayla]

This is a pretty good effort at guilt-tripping the OP Tayla, but it doesn't really address the important issue here--which is that his fiancee has proven herself to be completely untrustworthy, and that's been for the entire seven years of the relationship.

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--Edited

 

SMH,You truly are missing the boat. No guilt trip, just plain facts without bias. Be open minded.

[Tayla]

For starters, other than your own babies, no one loves anyone 'unconditionally' ever. It's all very conditional. Unconditional love is a romantic notion that has no basis in reality.

 

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Edited

 

Oldshirt- How sad.

[Mr. Lucky]

He was not falling in love with HER. He was falling in love with the inaccurate and fraudulent façade that she was presenting to him.

Really, he fell in love with a facade? As opposed to the real, live flesh-and-blood person next to him for the last 7 years? The OP doesn't sound like the type of person that could be fooled so easily.

 

DTW85, you've seen her close up. How she acts. How she treats you. How she treats other people. On that you should base any decision going forward ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Woggle]

Edited

 

Oldshirt- How sad.

 

Sad but true. Most love is conditional.

[2sunny]

Firstly, that is a rather narrow view of my options and not very good advice.

 

Secondly, you are correct in that she was protecting herself from being judged by me, but you should also consider the fact that you should not have to hide something from someone to be with them, as a relationship is supposed to be an open and safe environment. Had she not lied, I doubt I would have even thought about it much. Most of my anguish comes from the fact that the truth didn't come out until much later which makes it feel like it happened recently and not in the past.

 

Thirdly, saying "guys like you" is pretty silly when you have read a few words that I typed into a keyboard and assume that you know who I am as a person, my intentions, my past actions, my future actions, etc. Rather than scream at my Fiance, or actually follow through with my thoughts, I brought it to a site where I could freely voice my resentment and feelings of retaliation, and am coming to a more adult conclusion about it. "Guys like you" describes you, more than it does me.

 

Are you saying you would have continued dating her if you knew she'd had sex with 15 men in her past?

[jimmytwowheels]

If she was really as bent as some people are making her out to be, she probably WOULDN'T have told him about the 15. She would have waited until after marriage. Why would she tell him right before getting married when she could just tell him on the wedding night after denying him sex? It doesn't add up.

 

Some of the posters here have contributed some very valuable advice, but at the same time it seems to me as if they are letting their past experience color the said advice.

 

I have more experience then my SO. Actually my number is very close to the OPs fiance. I'm also in my late 20's. Does that mean that my SO should not see me as LTR material because of my past?

 

Nobody wants used goods. But they're a fact of western life. Very few people wait till marriage. So where do you draw the line? Is 5 acceptable? 10? At 15 is she done like dinner, completely unsuited for marriage? Doesn't a woman who got around deserve happiness too?

 

I'm no feminist, but I don't hold women to a different stand then I do myself. I've been around, as most of my friends have. And I've seen plenty of my friends who were massive man whores settle into happy marriages.

 

I see both sides of this argument, I really do. But only the OP knows his woman, only he can make the choice to live with it or not. I hope he chooses well, and I hope he doesn't let preconceptions of a person ruin what MIGHT be a great marriage.

 

Although to be honest, if my fiancee said to me, I'm not too big into sex, we'd have a conversation. I like sex. And I think that an active sex life goes a long way to preventing infidelity - sort of a barometer of the relationship sometimes.

 

happy labour day everyone

[oldshirt]

Edited

 

Oldshirt- How sad.

 

It doesn't have to be sad per se. it is just a reality.

 

My wife loves me...

 

... but I have to treat her with dignity and respect and treat her parents and friends with respect. I have to have a job and bring home an income and provide financial security and resources to the home and family. I have to take care of the kids and provide for their health and safety. I have to love her and provide her with warmth love and intimacy. I have to be faithful to her and not cheat on her or give my love and resources to others. I have to ..... well you get the idea.

 

Those are all CONDITIONS. If I fail to provide any of them, her love ends and she leaves.

 

 

She has a list of things she has to do to earn my love as well and if she fails to provide them, my love for her ends and I leave.

 

Every relationship in the universe is built on the same foundation.

 

love and relationships are VERY CONDITIONAL.

[janedoe67]

Your fiancee is ashamed of her sexual past. She perceived herself to be indiscriminately promiscuous at the time you got together with her. So, she lied to you. Meaning she also lacked any respect for you. And she wanted to present herself as something she was not.

 

Now, she thinks she has you hooked and reeled in, that she gets a mulligan for the lies and lack of respect.

 

Someone said it's not as if she cheated on you.

 

Unfortunately, you have no way of knowing. What you do know is that a woman who will lie about her promiscuous sexual past is very capable of cheating and will be in the future after you marry her and she feels "safe."

 

Dump her. Now.

 

 

 

No. She lied because she was promiscuous, ashamed of it, lacked respect for her partner, and is a liar. If she didn't want to be with a guy that she KNEW or suspected regarded her level of promiscuity and honesty as "important," she was free not to have gotten involved with him.

 

 

 

Most likely she did cheat on him at some point in the five year relationship. That's precisely what lying, promiscuous young women who lack respect for their partners do. They cheat. And you're correct--if she'd told the truth, they wouldn't be together . Now she's told the truth--or part of it anyway.

 

Five years is a long, long LONG time to lie.

 

I wonder what other lies she is hiding?

 

Wow.....jaded and judgemental much? Is it hard to see the rest of us from up on that pinnacle of perfection?

 

OP, she has a past she is ashamed of. And she should have told you about it sooner. If you can love her for the person she is today, build a great life. If it is a deal breaker for you, there is nothing wrong with that. If your plan is to hold onto this as some kind of morally superior trump card...do the right thing for both of you and end it.

[jimmytwowheels]

SMH: My aren't you quite intense. I particularly found it amusing that you actually answered my rhetorical question about my gf not seeing me as LTR because of my past with a 'quite possibly.'

For the record, I disclosed my sexual history early on in the relationship. I'm very up front about everything, as is she. Marriage is a formality now, as our finances are together, and we are common law married from living together. The only reason I'd even comment here is because I'm in a very healthy loving relationship, but have been in some pretty damn awful ones as well.

So, yes I'm relying on experience. But that doesn't mean I can't sit back a little, it doesn't mean that I try to apply all of my experiences to the OPs situation, because every situation is different; every relationship is different and every man and woman are different.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and experience, but you don't come across in a manner that will help anyone sir \ ma'am.

The point about the standard and women, was that I don't feel like women with a lot of partners should be ashamed of it. All too often men are slapped on the back for getting into the double digits (I have a friend in the triple) while simultaneously women are looked down upon for doing the same.

You could very well be reading way too much into this situation.

But yes, I agree, the whole no sex after marriage thing is odd. If I was him that would concern me more.

[jimmytwowheels]

Again, you make good points, but I still feel that a single lie isn't necessarily enough reason to throw out a relationship. Just me. I'd be devestated if my gf lied to me, but I'm not sure that it would be a deal breaker.

And no, I don't say that to justify my promiscuity. In fact I don't think my actions need justifying. I did what I did, and I don't regret it.

You're right - he's the one who has to marry the woman, not you or me. So it's his choice. If he can look past her lie, he should go for it. I might not, but the thing is, people don't ask for advice to actually get a direction. They ask for advice to justify their choice they've already made, and if they don't like the advice they just ignore it. Clamoring at them isn't going to do anything.

I've read some of your other posts, and I do agree with you quite often; I just disagree with the way you are painting her, when you've only got part of a story.

[junkelope]

And reiterating, this is exactly why couples should not have the numbers talk.

 

She was definitely wrong in lying to you, she breeched your trust on a topic she knew you found sensitive, and kept the truth hidden for years. You have every reason to be mad.

 

However, the discussion on here about how many partners are "too many" is getting a bit ridiculous. What somebody does with their sex life is nobody's business but there own. While I understand the virgin/nonvirgin question, and getting tested for STDs, there is no other reason to go into number of previous sex partners in a relationship. Anyone who believes that it is their business to know their current partner's number is invading privacy. Should their partner disclose how they had sex with previous people as well, so that their style can be assessed and judged? You determine compatibility with someone through long meaningful discussions of topics that pertain to your relationship, rather than every previous relationship had.

[Nyla]

jimmy--I think I pretty much agree with you.

 

However, OP was pretty much an inexperienced kid when this all started. This is not someone who had been through a few relationships of any note.

 

The danger for OP is that he will get guilted into staying with this woman, using wishful thinking to overlook the implications of what is going on with this woman.

 

He idealized this woman, and she played right along with that. She played HIM. Now she's playing him some more using the tears.

 

OP's fiancee is what is known as a "man eater." She is psychologically disturbed most likely and has all kinds of issues that he doesn't even know about because that's part of what she's been hiding from him.

 

Now, is it POSSIBLE that in the past seven years she has matured? Sure it's POSSIBLE but it's not very likely.

 

If he wants to do the common-law thing with her for a couple of years, move in together, and see how things develop, fine. I never said he has to totally dump her. But getting married? Lifetime LEGAL commitment? No way. Why should he? It's too risky with this kind of woman. God forbid he overlooks this, they get married, have a couple of rug rats, buy a house, and THEN she decides she's "unhappy" and starts cheating on him. Then he's stuck. 18 years of child support and probably alimony too.

 

She said "marriage is important to her" but "sex is not important to her."

 

We all know what that means. It means he is and has always been the safe "back up guy", the provider, who she is not really sexually attracted to. So, now she has baby rabies and will tolerate being married to him for a few years so she can check off the "babies" box and the "house and picket fence" box.

 

You know what? He should dump her, find a woman who ISN'T a liar, who ISN'T ashamed of what's she's done sexually, and who actually thinks sex IS important. (It may be even worse that she was promiscuous but claims the sex wasn't important. That clearly indicates she was using sex to get male attention.)

 

Just the line about "sex isn't important to me" is a deal breaker without all of the other drama.

 

The only reason this thing has lasted seven years in the first place is likely because of OP's incredible naivety. I'll bet there are all kinds of things in their history that were strange and unexplained but make sense if he puts two and two together and figures out she's been cheating on him the whole way along. He was just too blinded by love to see it.

 

She probably knows all kinds of "he's just a friend" type dudes, you know those "platonic" characters who are always sniffing around a certain type of woman. Probably there were times she was supposed to be somewhere and she wasn't, and her explanation didn't make sense and he just quizzically dismissed it from his mind.

 

No, it's not OP's job to be this woman's "knight in shining armor" and "rescue" her from whatever her problems are. Which he can't do anyway since she's made it clear she doesn't really like sex with him that much, so she will soon grow resentful of him for wanting to have it with her after they get married.

 

Are men "psychologically disturbed" if they have many partners as well? I think I know your answer to this question but I don't want to assume anything.

 

It appears that you are implying that a previously promiscuous woman can never be a good and faithful wife. Not sure if you know this, but wives who had very little sexual experience before marriage can end up cheating because they wonder what they missed. People often forget about the other side of the coin when they idealize "pure" women.

 

Although I only had four partners by age 20 and I lost my virginity later than my peers at 18, I still had my FWBs and ONS. None of that has led to me being a cheating wife. In fact, I have NO INTEREST in being intimate with anyone but my husband. I enjoyed my sexuality when I was single after a very restricted adolescence. I have had men try to tempt me into having affairs but I just laugh at them. Those punks can't hold a candle to my husband and I wouldn't have taken vows if I wanted to keep on playing the field. I grew up seeing infidelity and I know that I don't want it in my marriage. I also realize that nothing can replace the comfort and tenderness of married lovemaking.

 

I'm glad my husband is mature and intelligent enough to realize that there is nothing wrong with women having active and busy sex lives. He always says that he wouldn't have wanted an inexperienced wife, because my husband believes that a woman with few partners that isn't likely to be good in bed. It comes down to my husband being secure in his manhood and knowing that he can handle a lusty lady who knows her way around a man's body.

 

Madonna/whore complexes are for weak men who need validation of their "manhood". Unfortunately, it appears that most men fall into this category. I once had some idiot judge me for having a certain number, when this fool had two failed marriages and three kids. I told him to unpack his own baggage before trying to weigh mine.

 

This is why I always say that a woman should never share her number with a man, unless she is sure that she will not be condemned for her sexual experience.

 

Being lied to is hurtful and unacceptable. Dustin, I completely understand and sympathize with your feelings. I do think that refusing to marry your fiancée out of spite and retaliation is ridiculous. If it is important for you to have a wife with a low number of sexual partners, it would be much more mature to simply end the relationship and seek someone who has the same values as you. We are all entitled to our preferences whether others agree with them or not. If you do decide to date other women, it is best to have the sexual past conversation early on so that you will not waste your time. Keep in mind that some wonderful women may get turned off by your need to have a partner with low numbers; they may see it as sexist and narrow minded.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Nyla