Is it hubris to not change for the dating world?

[Scrab22]

I had a discussion with my friend one day, who thinks girls are looking for a challenging male, who will not be easily allured and charmed by the girl's flirting. He always generalizes, so he says it's that way for everyone (the games, the challenging males, the confidence, the toughness, etc etc etc).

I told him that if that's the case in our world, I will never let myself get in a relationship, since I'm not willing to be a "punch-bag", nor am I willing to change myself just so I'll be accepted by some snobbish society who only salutes and adores those who are tough, confident, assertive, etc, and judge and mock those who are weak/er.

 

So he told me then that "that's life", and that it's hubris to not change for the environment believing that you are better than everyone.

 

I may need to give more info, but I'll stop here with my opinion - I think changing for a generalized society is a greater weakness than being grateful of yourself.

Also, I do feel great with myself. If a girl doesn't want me because I'm a little low-confident or not too tough, then it's her loss for not trying to find out the positive traits.

 

What do you guys think?

[Grumpybutfun]

Men and women are alike in more ways than you would think. Like us, women just want to be appreciated and liked for who they are. Game playing is definitely something people do, but you definitely do not have to participate. Most times when people do, they find out they are with someone they wouldn't necessarily be compatible with anyway. I liked my spouse because she was smart, beautiful and funny. I didn't need to act like anyone but myself to secure her affections. Ask yourself if you would really like and respect a girl who played mind games for her own ego? If a girl only likes guys who are a challenge..ask yourself if she really wants a boyfriend or a conquest?

Grumps

[Scrab22]

Yes, I do believe in different people and exceptions, hence I believe there is a woman who can share weaknesses and things bothering her and etc.

I don't want someone who sends hints and plays some kind of "running" games or whatever. A few times is durable. But playing games on a regular basis is not someone I want.

 

...a girl who played mind games for her own ego

 

This is something I'd like to understand. Not from judgement but from why people play mind games. How does it benefit ego and why?

[Ruby Slippers]

I don't like "challenging" men. I like simple, direct honesty and openness, good old-fashioned commitment and sweetness.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one

[carhill]

Is it hubris to not change for the dating world?

 

IMO, if one's life is otherwise healthy and one enjoys satisfying relationships in their business and personal life, it's healthy to not change those dynamics 'for the dating world'. If other, examine one's personal health and make changes as appropriate.

 

As a song lyric once opined, 'You see, you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself'. Thanks to the departed Ricky Nelson, a man who dealt with his own issues in this arena, for that one.

[Scrab22]

Thanks for your opinions guys and girls!

I highly agree with "changing when needed for one person", when you've already dated him and may need to change some aspects about yourself for him, so long as you're grateful with your choice and so long as the person's reason he wants you to change comes from a weakness, not from supreme judgement.

[atomicdog]

I told him that if that's the case in our world, I will never let myself get in a relationship, since I'm not willing to be a "punch-bag", nor am I willing to change myself just so I'll be accepted by some snobbish society who only salutes and adores those who are tough, confident, assertive, etc, and judge and mock those who are weak/er.

 

That is life. I faced the same dilemma myself. Sell out or stay true to myself?

 

My solution is just to be myself, avoid relationships, and when I need sex, just pay for escorts. (It's cheaper than you think; certainly cheaper than having a girlfriend.)

 

If you're after something more than just physical gratification, save up some money and visit other countries, especially Europe and Asia. You'll find better women there. Don't get into relationships with them, but just enjoy their company and any sex you get.

 

If anyone has a better idea, tell me, but I think my solution is a winner.

[Scrab22]

You're either non-American/non-Australian or you're older and less attractive and thus forced to settle for second-best.

 

Opinion is an opinion, but I don't think an opinion is fair when it has stereotypes and generalizations.

You know, your opinion quite resembles that of my friend's.

I think the problem with what society views of relationship is all they see is sex sex and sex.

What happened to intimate relationship, with trust, companionship and support? You're giving the world one rule, where in the true world, there are exceptions. Yet perhaps some of those exceptional people change for society's rules. Few know themselves enough to know what they truly want.

 

But just so you know, I don't judge sex. In fact, I can imagine how pleasing it can be, but it's not something I expect to get in a relationship. If it's gonna happen, let it. If not, I can live with it.

 

As I'm writing this I'm beginning to understand you. If you don't want relationships, that's respectable! If you want women for their company and sex (with no intimacy nor relationships), that's also fine!

 

If I'm going to be that "punch-bag", I'll probably get that kind of girls who seek the same kind of men - for company and sex. However, it probably won't get me an intimate relationship.

[Dolphono]

I had a discussion with my friend one day, who thinks girls are looking for a challenging male, who will not be easily allured and charmed by the girl's flirting. He always generalizes, so he says it's that way for everyone (the games, the challenging males, the confidence, the toughness, etc etc etc).

I told him that if that's the case in our world, I will never let myself get in a relationship, since I'm not willing to be a "punch-bag", nor am I willing to change myself just so I'll be accepted by some snobbish society who only salutes and adores those who are tough, confident, assertive, etc, and judge and mock those who are weak/er.

 

So he told me then that "that's life", and that it's hubris to not change for the environment believing that you are better than everyone.

 

I may need to give more info, but I'll stop here with my opinion - I think changing for a generalized society is a greater weakness than being grateful of yourself.

Also, I do feel great with myself. If a girl doesn't want me because I'm a little low-confident or not too tough, then it's her loss for not trying to find out the positive traits.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Sir, you are a scholar. Never change for any one, but thyself.

I believe in Freedom, Liberty and the pursuit of one's happiness. Although happiness is a delusion in the adult stage of life, a reality in the child stage, IMHO. When a person truly and honestly loves another, they love the whole nature of the person. People in relationships today, only love themselves, and have selfish conditions attach to their "love". LS is a wonderful observation tank of this deteriorating aspect of society. Now if you fancy yourself as a god in the relationship then your attitude is indeed hubris.

 

Older generations survived the tribulations of their relationships, enduring such difficult times, cemented their LOVE, for all eternity at the end of their journey.

Today's generation is a much softer breed, very fragile. Everyone's connected, but, OH, SO LONELY, even while in a "Relationship". Lmao. Social Engineering at it's best...

[Scrab22]

From my experience, I can be the most patient and understanding person in a relationship.

I was about to meet a girl friend (not girlfriend) one day. I waited 2 hours, and as much as it burnt and wanted to go home so I won't waste my time, I waited anyways. However, she couldn't make it so in the end I walked home.

She got delayed by work or something.

[Grumpybutfun]

Yes, I do believe in different people and exceptions, hence I believe there is a woman who can share weaknesses and things bothering her and etc.

I don't want someone who sends hints and plays some kind of "running" games or whatever. A few times is durable. But playing games on a regular basis is not someone I want.

 

 

 

This is something I'd like to understand. Not from judgement but from why people play mind games. How does it benefit ego and why?

 

Insecurity and a constant need for validation and approval. These are not the types of people you want. They have a hole in them due to personal issues stemming from parents, trauma, media images, and nothing you do will be able to sufficiently fill it. They do not need a boyfriend/girlfriend, they need a therapist.

Best,

Grumps

Edited September 4, 2013 by Grumpybutfun

[todreaminblue]

i like to be challenged in a relationship it is how i can grow but not attracted to challenging males who dont know me all that well i become defensive...you have to know somebody to be truly challenged.....you have to trust their judgement....and them.....thats my opinion.... acting one way to get a date and actually being another way when you get to knwo them, isnt challenging....

 

 

you can normally determine if soemoen will be challanging in a reltionship for the way they stand up to their own belief, their patience in explaining to others their views, and alway sready to lsiten, how passionate they are at doing that talkign and listening, if they stand behind what they say and do so with respect to the those who agree or disagree....thats a man.....

 

 

thats the challenge i want in a relationship...respect for my opinions, a guy who stands behind his and doesnt run away stands tall in spite of oppostion, because that is where i need to grow, not arrogance and a kindness behind hsi motives, a compassion for others and what they feel, not aloof or hard to get and hard to know....thats not a challenge...thats a no go zone.but this i smerely what i feel, i knwo the datign world is different far more abtou manipulation than actually gettign to know soemone on their true merit..if i like a guy i am not a challenge to date, i dont play hard to get i dotn actually want to get to knwo many guys on an intimate level....but i will challenge a guy i trust who trusts me in a relationship but with respect i challenge, i do have a right to....as he would.................deb

Edited September 4, 2013 by todreaminblue

[Scrab22]

i like to be challenged in a relationship it is how i can grow but not attracted to challenging males who dont know me all that well i become defensive...you have to know somebody to be truly challenged.....you have to trust their judgement....and them.....thats my opinion.... acting one way to get a date and actually being another way when you get to knwo them, isnt challenging....

 

 

you can normally determine if soemoen will be challanging in a reltionship for the way they stand up to their own belief, their patience in explaining to others their views, and alway sready to lsiten, how passionate they are at doing that talkign and listening, if they stand behind what they say and do so with respect to the those who agree or disagree....thats a man.....

 

 

thats the challenge i want in a relationship...respect for my opinions, a guy who stands behind his and doesnt run away stands tall in spite of oppostion, because that is where i need to grow, not arrogance and a kindness behind hsi motives, a compassion for others and what they feel, not aloof or hard to get and hard to know....thats not a challenge...thats a no go zone.but this i smerely what i feel, i knwo the datign world is different far more abtou manipulation than actually gettign to know soemone on their true merit..if i like a guy i am not a challenge to date, i dont play hard to get i dotn actually want to get to knwo many guys on an intimate level....but i will challenge a guy i trust who trusts me in a relationship but with respect i challenge, i do have a right to....as he would.................deb

 

From what you say, you want a challenge of kindness, respect and mental strength, which is not a bad thing at all!

Also, your mentioning of your reason (bolded in quote) makes you mature and honest. The reason itself is also mature!

I'm not saying you're weak, but I really like a person who shows his reasons are from a weakness (you needing to strengthen yourself, or for instance, a girl playing mind games because she's afraid to be straightforward), because it means you're not afraid to show a weakness and not just always be a strong person and hide your weaknesses all the time. Some people hide them, and I don't really like those kind of people.

Just so you know, I have some weaknesses too. For instance, I may sometimes lack tact (I also feel a lack of tact writing this post ).

 

Grumps -I adore your posts, and I can see myself discussing this specific topic with you for some time. Let's start with this - How has the whole "mind games" concept started anyways? I can tell from my opinion that mind games are a waste of energy. And how can one validate if he doesn't call the other side?

I feel a little messed up

But I'm really enjoying the discussion with you guys!

[Dolphono]

"mind games" is nothing more than psychological manipulation.

Everyone does it, even if they aren't aware of it. Just courting someone is nothing but games/manipulations. Once a bond is developed over time, then games are no longer played.

[Grumpybutfun]

Scrab:

I imagine, but is all in jest, some cave dwellers were fighting over a piece of meat and a sexually ready female trotted by. The female goes off with one who uses and abuses her horribly and hurts her. It reminds her of her father's and brother's abuse, not to mention the emotional abuse of her mother and grandmother and probably some kindly old aunt who harassed her about her weight problem. She gets away from the caveman, and then the second one who actually won the meat earlier decides he would like a shot with her, but she doesn't want to be used and abused like before so she tells him that she might be available if he can go beat up the guy who hit her. He doesn't want to but she promises him unimaginable physical pleasure if he will, and denies him any release whatsoever, and therefore "mindgames" were born. He wants his seed implanted and so he does the deed and she learns that she can control him by playing these mind games with him. As the male/female becomes more sophisticated, the mind games become shallow and inconsequential because propagating lineages aren't as important as they once were. Therefore, dating becomes the new arena for mind games. Both sexes are, of course, both very educated in this as we see in everyday life and on these boards daily.

With men I imagine it was a bit different. Cavewoman wants her mate to do something that he has no intention of doing, so she nags him to distraction. Therefore he invents the "cold shoulder" mind game where in order to get her to be and do what he wanted he ignored her until she felt insecure and afraid of losing him. Or, cavewoman rejects caveman's advances so he turns bitter and writes on the wall about how women are evil and have no sense. Not sure if the last one works, but as it still goes on, I assume it was a way to get support from other rejected males who are also bitter because they were rejected by cavewomen too.

Validation? Why on earth would anyone want to validate the antics of cavemen and cavewomen? Ignore, ignore, ignore and have fun with your life. Laughter and happiness can attract people who are authentic in a way that money, power and good looks cannot. The challenge comes with the work put into making a great relationship, not in the "chase." A woman can be challenging (intellectually, playfully) without being coy and coquettish.

Do you mind if I ask why you are feeling a bit messed up? If it isn't for Love Shack consumption, just ignore my question.

Grumps

[Malakas]

Everybody is saying no...well I say ,in a way,yes it is .It is hybris to not be able to see and review the pattern of your own mistakes and problematic behaviours in a number of failed relationships,and the nemesis you will receive is to be condemned to repeat them again and again.It is fine to not want to change yourself,but there is always room for some more self improvement.

[Grumpybutfun]

Everybody is saying no...well I say ,in a way,yes it is .It is hybris to not be able to see and review the pattern of your own mistakes and problematic behaviours in a number of failed relationships,and the nemesis you will receive is to be condemned to repeat them again and again.It is fine to not want to change yourself,but there is always room for some more self improvement.

 

Self-improvement is always welcome, but I thought he was referring to changing yourself to be what people think of as someone you definitely are not just for the sake of attracting a girl who expects a certain kind of guy and who plays mind games in order to get him.

I am all for self-improvement and is one of the reasons I like it here. People always make you think outside the box.

Thnx,

Grumps

[Scrab22]

Yes, I was talking about what Grumps said (changing for "society").

Self-improvement is something I make sure to work on!

 

And Grumps - thanks for your explanation of the cave dwellers. It's made me understand the case of games more clearly.

As for your question - I always feel messed up when two opposite opinions strike. For instance, a girl had once broken up with me out of nowhere, so I kept asking myself: "Is it me, or is it her?".

Moreover, I always feel messed up when thinking about those subjects after I start to.

And just because I want to know more about the games, doesn't mean I'm trying to like it. I'm not only asking and discussing for help, but also for knowledge!

[Grumpybutfun]

Scrab:

Think of dating as a job interview for love. Sometimes the "position" is just not the right fit for the other person and rejection is okay because we wouldn't want a job that isn't the best job for us. In other words, we wouldn't want a girl who doesn't want to be with us with her entire heart and soul, so if a girl breaks up with you, it leaves you free to go searching for the best girl for you.

When I was a young man, I remember thinking that I would never find anyone because I had little to no tolerance for coyness, stupidity, mind games, etc. I would get the girl, unwrap her and find that the center was a hollow mass of drama or insipidness. I wandered Europe after grad school taking my physical pleasure wherever I could, completely thinking that life was not going to hand me any kind of romantic love. I became a little taciturn, charming only when I wanted sex (feel rather bad about it now) and right when I returned to US a little curvy blonde came by with big blue eyes, an adorable Southern accent, a head full of knowledge, not a care for mind games or other people's opinions, ideas about everything, and big crazy dreams. Needless to say...I was in lust with all of her, and I wanted her in my life for as long as she would allow. She laughed at my stoic demeanor, told me I was going to marry her and turned my entire worldview upside down.

As they say, there is someone for everyone.

Grumps

[Scrab22]

The comparison between relationships and careers is good.

But a sudden breakup is like suddenly firing you without any warning nor conversation of the case.

 

Yes, I know this taciturn behavior. I've been in it occasionally.

 

But I don't understand the part with the blonde girl. What you mean is she underestimated your stoic behavior? (This is a very strong trait)

And it seemed through all this time she didn't want a marriage?

So your worldview is "there is someone for everyone"? (I agree with this statement).

 

Sorry, I'm trying hard to understand the context. Sometimes I don't understand contexts the right way, but that's one of my weaknesses.

[Grumpybutfun]

Scrab:

The blonde girl became my wife. I thought I had seen it all and been through lots of girls so there was no one for me. Yet, even when life had changed me and made me stoic, someone amazing came along and took a chance on me anyway. I am reiterating the fact that even though you were dumped by this girl, there is someone for everyone. Don't give up and don't let the mind games keep you from opening your life and heart when the right girl comes along. Learn how to be discerning so you will recognize an authentic women from someone who is immature and dramatic.

Being dumped isn't the end of the world even though it feels horrible. It frees you for when the right person comes along.

Best of luck,

Grumps

[Taramere]

I had a discussion with my friend one day, who thinks girls are looking for a challenging male, who will not be easily allured and charmed by the girl's flirting.

 

I subscribe to that. When a man seems very easily impressed, eyes out on stalks for every woman who passes and generally falling in love at the drop of a hat, attention from him isn't much of a compliment. More seriously, how faithful is somebody like that going to be?

 

A man like that could be a liability. If I get into conflict with another woman, what's going to be the first thing she does? If she's a certain type of woman, she's going to react by fluttering her eyelashes at the guy I'm with. Having sex with him as a way of getting at me. Been there, done that...not ever going there again. A less easily impressed man is a better bet for a long term relationship.

 

I told him that if that's the case in our world, I will never let myself get in a relationship, since I'm not willing to be a "punch-bag", nor am I willing to change myself just so I'll be accepted by some snobbish society who only salutes and adores those who are tough, confident, assertive, etc, and judge and mock those who are weak/er.

 

Do you think society is really like that? As a very simple example - I work in a profession which is generally deemed to be one of the more cut throat out there. As part of my job, I have to go to court quite often. I can tell you right now that the most confident, assertive young lawyers are the most likely to get savaged to the extent that in some cases they'll give up their professional dream of being the next Perry Mason. People tend to take a "cut you down to size" approach to assertive arrogant types to the extent that their confident and obnoxious manner will hold them back rather than help them to succeed.

 

Most of the successful people I know can assert themselves when they need to, but tend to take a more measured and co-operative approach for the most part. The aggressive and obnoxious Donald Trumps of the world are caricatures who get a lot of publicity precisely because they're caricatures.

 

Also, I do feel great with myself. If a girl doesn't want me because I'm a little low-confident or not too tough, then it's her loss for not trying to find out the positive traits.

 

What do you guys think?

 

I think if you're happy with yourself then that's a great start. Being low in confidence suggests to me that maybe there's room for you to become a bit happier with who you are.

 

Honestly, there's pressure on women to be confident and tough too - difficult as it might be to imagine. Not in the dating world, perhaps, but in lots of other spheres of life...and, of course, in relationships too if they're not to be walked all over (which can happen to anybody who isn't good at asserting themselves). Male or female, developing the ability to stick up for yourself is pretty much a must in the modern day world. It doesn't mean you have to be a horrible, cut throat and ruthless sort of person - and I would argue that in most environments if you were that kind of person it would work against you.

 

You can be confident and effective without completely steamrolling over everybody in your path. I wouldn't place too much stock in what your friend's saying. The impression I'm getting from what you're saying is that he's wrestling with issues of his own (about what sort of a man he should be) and that those issues may be tainting the advice he's giving you.

[gaius]

I think it just indicates you're not that interested in dating and are trying to fool yourself by pretending it's really some weird thing to do with stubbornness.

[Scrab22]

Grumps:

It's great to see you have an authentic and mature wife and I feel great for you!

And I'm not letting the breakup keep me from losing hope eternally, although I sometimes don't feel like a relationship much, I feel happy the way I am now - computer games, friends, psychology (in this website and beyond) and discussions. Removing Facebook from my life has helped me allot in becoming more full of myself.

 

Tara:

I don't see society as a snob group and whatever else I've mentioned. I said "I told him that if that's the case in our world". What I meant is "assuming that's the case in our world".

I honestly don't think that's the case with society, and even if it is, I won't change to be like this.

 

And yes, I'm on a stage of thoughts and self-development right now. I myself know I don't have to be mean, tough or a douche.

 

gaius:

Deep in my heart I do want a relationship, but it's true that right now I'm not very concerned about not being in one.

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

Scrab:

Think of dating as a job interview for love. Sometimes the "position" is just not the right fit for the other person and rejection is okay because we wouldn't want a job that isn't the best job for us. In other words, we wouldn't want a girl who doesn't want to be with us with her entire heart and soul, so if a girl breaks up with you, it leaves you free to go searching for the best girl for you.

When I was a young man, I remember thinking that I would never find anyone because I had little to no tolerance for coyness, stupidity, mind games, etc. I would get the girl, unwrap her and find that the center was a hollow mass of drama or insipidness. I wandered Europe after grad school taking my physical pleasure wherever I could, completely thinking that life was not going to hand me any kind of romantic love. I became a little taciturn, charming only when I wanted sex (feel rather bad about it now) and right when I returned to US a little curvy blonde came by with big blue eyes, an adorable Southern accent, a head full of knowledge, not a care for mind games or other people's opinions, ideas about everything, and big crazy dreams. Needless to say...I was in lust with all of her, and I wanted her in my life for as long as she would allow. She laughed at my stoic demeanor, told me I was going to marry her and turned my entire worldview upside down.

As they say, there is someone for everyone.

Grumps

 

You say "when I was a young man".

 

Does that mean you're a baby boomer? If so, your advice is invalid for today's dating world. The dating world has changed SIGNIFICANTLY since the 1970s.