Men buying your SO a drink in a bar

[PlumPrincess]

Valid points. But I am confused on something...Why were you spending time one-on-one with a taken woman? You're against the whole premise of it, yet, are doing it yourself?

I do not understand that either. She has a boyfriend and yet he continues taking her out and paying for her. What's the difference between his situation and the one with his ex and her male friends who take her out and pay for her?

[carhill]

What I've noticed during discussions about this dynamic is that each person is apparently clear in their own mind that the interactions are purely platonic; however, the uncertainty, which is valid, of never knowing what is in the mind of another can lead to fear and fear can lead to assuming the worst of behaviors as a possibility.

 

I noted this most often with MW's who were quite confident in their own abilities to maintain boundaries of platonic relationships with myself and other males but, at the same time, questioned the abilities of their husbands to do similar. Essentially, they feared the unknown, even with a modicum or substantial amount of trust and/or trustworthiness. They didn't fear their own behaviors, since those were/are within their complete control. I mention this gender mix only because it's been the most prevalent in my life experience, though I'm pretty sure things are predominantly gender-neutral.

[Babolat]

OP, I suggest you stop buying women drinks and stuff unless you know them well.

 

This little tradition is stale and ridiculous in an age where women can and are expected to pull their own weight financially.

 

Personally, I don't have the highest regard for women who accept such from strangers without at least offering to pay for themselves. Intentions become quite clear in that case.

 

OTOH, if you want the kind of woman you have to pay for and buy things for in order to keep her around... then go ahead.

 

That probably is the best way to bridge the age gap and lots of other gaps... (ie the 28 year old).... Dangle the $$...

 

Hi RR, I have never bought a drink for a strange woman in a bar, and I never will.

 

The 28 year old gal let me buy, though she would buy too. My point in using that example is even though she told me "she had a bf, I am not available" her actions did not match her words.

[Babolat]

the point is, you have to nip that mess in the bud. Even if a girl has no intentions beyond enjoying a free drink, she is putting herself in a bad position by accepting.

 

thank you!

[Babolat]

Why were you spending time one-on-one with a taken woman? You're against the whole premise of it, yet, are doing it yourself?

 

Agreed...and after hanging out with her 2-3 more times after she announced her bf, I told her I could not be the "other man". I hung out 2-3 more times thinking there either was no bf or he was on the outs.

 

I thought I could hang out with her as a friend after that, but she kept talking about sex, how attracted he was to me, etc. And nothing ever happened between us besides a goodnight hug. I could not do it knowing she had a bf.

[Babolat]

My view - If a woman is an a semi serious relationship she does not accept drinks from strangers.

 

Again it it was me - the way I would present it "I am not insecure nor mistrusting, but it is a sign of disrespect to the me and my commitment to you for you to accept gifts from strange men. "

 

I like your "gift" word...it's how I view this..it's no different than the man offering the woman a gift of the same value.

[Babolat]

I do not understand that either. She has a boyfriend and yet he continues taking her out and paying for her. What's the difference between his situation and the one with his ex and her male friends who take her out and pay for her?

 

My example was a bad one...she paid 1/2 or I would pay, she would pay next. I was trying to make the point of words, actions, messages delivered and intent.

[Babolat]

What I've noticed during discussions about this dynamic is that each person is apparently clear in their own mind that the interactions are purely platonic; however, the uncertainty, which is valid, of never knowing what is in the mind of another can lead to fear and fear can lead to assuming the worst of behaviors as a possibility.

 

I noted this most often with MW's who were quite confident in their own abilities to maintain boundaries of platonic relationships with myself and other males but, at the same time, questioned the abilities of their husbands to do similar. Essentially, they feared the unknown, even with a modicum or substantial amount of trust and/or trustworthiness. They didn't fear their own behaviors, since those were/are within their complete control. I mention this gender mix only because it's been the most prevalent in my life experience, though I'm pretty sure things are predominantly gender-neutral.

 

I agree, for me it's not about trust. And for me, I know my exes interactions were platonic. Buying a drink or not, she is very social, with everyone. I do think she craves male attention and validation based on some other things I saw, and still see in her.

 

It's about respect and delivering the wrong message to a man for me.

[Babolat]

3+ days NC since our last talk, not directly because of this post, but because I suggested it (many times actually) and she finally agreed to it.

 

It hurts, bad, and I miss her texts, as she makes me smile. We shall see how this goes.

 

Thanks for the feedback here!

[carhill]

I do think she craves male attention and validation based on some other things I saw, and still see in her.

 

IMO, here's a distinction to make, relevant to the demarcation between platonic and potentially unhealthy to a relationship.

 

When you say she 'craves male attention', does that indicate that she genuinely enjoys the company of males, sharing their interests, discussing their topics, bantering in the style customarily male? IOW, she really enjoys men and who and what they are? Or, does she like that they give her attention, based on her being a female? Which way do things generally swing? That would be my demarcation of propriety.

 

For example, I happened by one of my rentals to do some work and the tenant was out in the driveway washing her very fine BMW motorcycle. She's also a quite attractive lady with a boyfriend. I was paying her attention, on my way in to do my work, because I was interested in her bike, in her riding experience, travel, etc. My interest wasn't in her 'features' and wasn't presented that way. I gave her some of the proprietary soap we make for industrial cleaning to try out on her greases and oils on the bike. She offered me a soda. We weren't 'flirting'. That's the boundary, in my mind. I did my work and left and haven't been back.

[Babolat]

IMO, here's a distinction to make, relevant to the demarcation between platonic and potentially unhealthy to a relationship.

 

When you say she 'craves male attention', does that indicate that she genuinely enjoys the company of males, sharing their interests, discussing their topics, bantering in the style customarily male? IOW, she really enjoys men and who and what they are? Or, does she like that they give her attention, based on her being a female? Which way do things generally swing? That would be my demarcation of propriety.

 

For example, I happened by one of my rentals to do some work and the tenant was out in the driveway washing her very fine BMW motorcycle. She's also a quite attractive lady with a boyfriend. I was paying her attention, on my way in to do my work, because I was interested in her bike, in her riding experience, travel, etc. My interest wasn't in her 'features' and wasn't presented that way. I gave her some of the proprietary soap we make for industrial cleaning to try out on her greases and oils on the bike. She offered me a soda. We weren't 'flirting'. That's the boundary, in my mind. I did my work and left and haven't been back.

Excellent question.

 

While we were dating I feel strongly that this was not flirtation on her behalf. She truly enjoys meeting new people, talking to them, engaging in conversation, etc. I could see her light up[ when talking to people. I saw it when I was with her at a bar, a club, a party, a family event, etc.

 

She use to tell me it turned her on to see me do the same with my friends or strangers. She got very turned on seeing me engaged in a conversation with people. I remember talking engines once with her dad and uncle, she later said she never knew I knew so much about engines, it turned her on listening.

 

By saying craves attention, I do think she needs some male validation as in "you are beautiful" "you are sexy", "you are a wonderful person" from men. It's all over her facebook. She posts sexy photos of herself, girls night out photos, all the time. When we dated she would post, then be on her phone for hours checking the comments and replying.

 

I could be wrong on this, it's just my impression.

 

While dating, she would tell me though she appears to be confident, she is not, and she needed me to just be there, to compliment her, pick her up at times.

[KungFuJoe]

Babolat,

 

Your problem is simple.

 

You make yourself the parent in a relationship. You probably do this subconsciously. I can tell, not just from the dynamics of your most recent relationship, but your thoughts on who pays for what.

 

You are willing to pay for your female friends. You want to take care of them, in a way.

You think taken women who accept drinks from strangers is WRONG. Kind of like how you would chastise your child for doing something that you feel is wrong because they may not understand the repercussions.

 

But grown women are NOT children. They don't need to be told HOW it looks if they accept a drink. They know what they're doing. Some will choose not to accept...and some will. And you know what? There is NO difference between the two. All people are different.

 

I've read enough of your posts to know that THIS is what I see as the major roadblock in your ability to find a meaningful relationship. You want to take CARE of women...and in some manner, due to this, you feel that women NEED to be taken care of.

 

You go on and on about how it sends a wrong message if a taken woman accepts a drink (even calling them low class) but you think NOTHING of the fact that what REALLY matters is what the woman's intentions are. You feel like you have to think for women because they can't think for themselves. This next sentence is going to sound really harsh, so understand that there is a fair bit of hyperbole in it:

 

There is a similarity in how you think and how rapists who think women who dress provocatively are just "asking for it".

 

Anyways...sorry if I sounded a bit harsh...you know I think you're a good guy and I'm just looking out for you.

[Babolat]

Babolat,

 

Your problem is simple.

 

You make yourself the parent in a relationship. You probably do this subconsciously. I can tell, not just from the dynamics of your most recent relationship, but your thoughts on who pays for what.

 

You are willing to pay for your female friends. You want to take care of them, in a way.

You think taken women who accept drinks from strangers is WRONG. Kind of like how you would chastise your child for doing something that you feel is wrong because they may not understand the repercussions.

 

But grown women are NOT children. They don't need to be told HOW it looks if they accept a drink. They know what they're doing. Some will choose not to accept...and some will. And you know what? There is NO difference between the two. All people are different.

 

I've read enough of your posts to know that THIS is what I see as the major roadblock in your ability to find a meaningful relationship. You want to take CARE of women...and in some manner, due to this, you feel that women NEED to be taken care of.

 

You go on and on about how it sends a wrong message if a taken woman accepts a drink (even calling them low class) but you think NOTHING of the fact that what REALLY matters is what the woman's intentions are. You feel like you have to think for women because they can't think for themselves. This next sentence is going to sound really harsh, so understand that there is a fair bit of hyperbole in it:

 

There is a similarity in how you think and how rapists who think women who dress provocatively are just "asking for it".

 

Anyways...sorry if I sounded a bit harsh...you know I think you're a good guy and I'm just looking out for you.

 

 

Thanks KFJ. Some here have called me a fixer with her; I see signs of codependency in me with her. After 5+ days of NC, I am actually feeling pretty darn good.

[Babolat]

Update: Almost 3 weeks NC. She did send me an email Friday night, which I waitied until Sunday night to read and reply to.

 

She wanted to tell me, again, she is not drinking as much, went the entire week without drinking, did not go out, and they she does not think she has a problem at all. She did have to say, which I thought was cute, "but I am going out tonight!"

 

She said she misses me, loves me, sees us together, growing old together, that she needs more time to make sure she is OK with her "going out" and drinking. She is afraid to lose me, but understands it may happen, and that she is scared to date again because of how she loses herself when dating.

 

I replied, pretty much acknowledging her comments, repeating what I heard.

[KungFuJoe]

She says all that yet she claims she doesn't want to date you?

 

Sounds to me like she's ****ing with your head. Trying to keep you emotionally attached and available if she ever needs you.

[Babolat]

She says all that yet she claims she doesn't want to date you?

 

Sounds to me like she's ****ing with your head. Trying to keep you emotionally attached and available if she ever needs you.

Well, I have told her repeatedly I do not want to date her.

 

When we met to talk 3 weeks ago she said "And I know you are waiting for me..". I quickly stopped her and said "I am not waiting for you and have no idea how you ever heard that message".

 

I don't think she is consciouly messing with me. I think she is truly scared, confused, trying to figure herself out, she does not want to try again only to still feel judged, she sees and feels the good in us, she is hitting the dating "pause" button in her life, maybe hoping then when she feels ready, healthier, I will too.

 

I am doing my own thing and feel good, which for me is all that matters right now.

[underwater2010]

No you are not old fashion or insecure. Taken women and men should not accept drinks from members of the opposite sex or of their sexual interest.

 

I think it is a trashy move by any taken woman to accept drinks from strangers. Even trashier is taking off your wedding ring just so men will by you drinks. I work in a bar and see it all the time. Accepting the drink is an open invitation that your are ready and willing to engage in conversation or more. But in this day and age it does not surprise me that many women engage in this behavior.

[underwater2010]

2 follow up questions:

 

1) A woman is in a group setting with her gfs, some are single, same have bfs, some are married. Shots/drinks show up from a man, or a group of men. Do you drink it? Peer pressure to do so because your gfs do?

 

2) Man orders you a drink from across the bar, never walks over, never talks to you. Do you accept the drink? One of those where the bartendar says "this is on the gentleman over there"

1) Yes I do...with my single girlfriends, but I do not engage in any further conversation/dancing/drinks/one on one time with said purchaser(s).

 

2) Absolutely not. I do not know you nor do I wish to be hit on. Save your money so I say "Tell him thank you, but I am married. Save it for a single girl you have a chance with"

 

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[Babolat]

Babo, Babo, Babo...

 

We've talked about this. You're a 28 YO homebody, she's a 40-something bargirl. You aren't compatable. Find someone who is.

 

Agreed, but I am 47 and not a homebody

 

See some of my other recent "Update" posts on her; I am moving on and life is pretty good right now.

[Divasu]

Update: Almost 3 weeks NC. She did send me an email Friday night, which I waitied until Sunday night to read and reply to

 

That makes it 1 day NC, not "almost three weeks".

 

[Babolat]

That makes it 1 day NC, not "almost three weeks".

 

 

Good point...I guess to me it means NC in person, no texting since we last met to talk, and agreed to NC. I am not following the NC document word for word I guess as I don't feel I have to at this point.

[Babolat]

I hate this. I bought tickets 5+ weeks agao for us for a concert that was last night. When we agreed to NC 3+ weeks ago I sold them on Stub Hub.

 

She sent me a text around 6:30PM yesterday stating "Have fun at the <xyz> concert. I am thinking about you....."

 

I do not think this is breadcrumbs from her and I know where I stand, how I feel. I am moving forward, I do not want to date her again.

 

It feels mean to not reply, to not acknowledge her. What's wrong with an acknowledgment reply, like "Thanks".

[carhill]

Women taught me that it's not mean, but actually normal and acceptable, to not reply if one doesn't feel like replying, like in the case of a former SO/spouse. So much for 'old-fashioned' socialization. Rather than 'breadcrumbs', I'd view it as 'zero', kinda like that stuff in one's spam folder. Delete. YMMV.

[Babolat]

Women taught me that it's not mean, but actually normal and acceptable, to not reply if one doesn't feel like replying, like in the case of a former SO/spouse. So much for 'old-fashioned' socialization. Rather than 'breadcrumbs', I'd view it as 'zero', kinda like that stuff in one's spam folder. Delete. YMMV.

 

I am actually surprised at how good I am feeling in such a short period of NC. I think the past 6 months of back and forth was enough for me.

 

I am checking women out for the first time in a long time, allowing myself to go out, talking to woman, having fun, talk, chat, with no expectations, my anxiety is way down.....

 

For that reason, I don't feel like saying "Thanks" is inappropriate with her. She knows exactly where I stand, she has told me repeatedly she does not want to date, she needs to be alone, she knows she may lose me (and I confiemd this with her, yeah, you will)...I am not initiating communication with her.

 

I do get the NC Guide, and it makes sense to me. I just think there could be execptions to the Guide when, in my case, I am not trying to get her back, I feel like I have healed, I was the dumper, and she is initiating the conversation. Plus, it's been very amicable with us, no arguments, no hard feelings, so I see no need to shut her off, block her, etc should she reach out to me. I see her as a person I use to date, it did not work out, being removed from it long enough has given me clarity and understanding, so why be mean and not reply.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Babolat

[Divasu]

I hate this. I bought tickets 5+ weeks agao for us for a concert that was last night. When we agreed to NC 3+ weeks ago I sold them on Stub Hub.

 

She sent me a text around 6:30PM yesterday stating "Have fun at the <xyz> concert. I am thinking about you....."

 

I do not think this is breadcrumbs from her and I know where I stand, how I feel. I am moving forward, I do not want to date her again.

 

It feels mean to not reply, to not acknowledge her. What's wrong with an acknowledgment reply, like "Thanks".

 

Uhoop!

If you replied then you are back to "0" day no contact.

Kidding aside, your choices are to either tell her to please stop contacting you so you can heal and move on or, muster all your strength and not reply anymore, to anything or do nothing and just let the chips fall where they may.

 

Everyone reaches that stage of indifference at their own pace, so, just try to figure out which route is best for you and then take it.